Plasma Vs. LCD - Page 2 - AVS Forum
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post #31 of 252 Old 11-19-2008, 01:26 PM
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Originally Posted by akSun View Post

What about Sony ? Since I use HTPC connected to the TV, I use VGA connector for that [by the way, I am not OP, but have similar needs].
I am sure if I can afford Kuro, I would go ahead and do that, but my budget is limited to about $2200.

A 5020 Kuro (non Elite) is very close to your budget any number of legit outlets on and offline and AVS forum sponsors and such.



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Since 52"W4100 is near that price point, that is what I am considering.

I can honestly say the Kuro blows that set out of the water with ease. It's not even close.


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Also, what is the power requirement of plasma ? Reading through the threads, I note that plasma TVs need much more power than LCD. How much more is that ?

I thought this was basically no longer true with current hardware across the boards...

Great ISF Job by Chad B.
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post #32 of 252 Old 11-19-2008, 01:36 PM
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Originally Posted by Q of BanditZ View Post

A 5020 Kuro (non Elite) is very close to your budget any number of legit outlets on and offline and AVS forum sponsors and such.

Does Sears carry Kuro ? I must buy from that store as it is a replacement ...

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post #33 of 252 Old 11-19-2008, 01:42 PM
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Originally Posted by akSun View Post

Does Sears carry Kuro ? I must buy from that store as it is a replacement ...

Unfortunately no, it doesn't look like it.

The W isn't a bad TV in and of itself. I was just saying: If you had the choice and the price was close then the Kuro wins for sure. A Panasonic 800u 50 is another very solid, leading plasma that hits your budget. They do sell that and its brother the 850u at Sears and they also sell a bunch of other Panasonics.

Sears does sell most of the leading Sony and Samsung LCD's up to the XBR6 on the Sony side and 850 on the Samsung side. I've heard talk that Sears might get access to the XBR8s and 950s at some point but who knows?

Not a bad selection overall at Sears...just trust your eyes and "kick the tires" as best you can.

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post #34 of 252 Old 11-19-2008, 03:05 PM
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Originally Posted by Q of BanditZ View Post

I thought this was basically no longer true with current hardware across the boards...

It's still true - the 46" 650 LCD uses like 140W, vs 280W for the 46" Panasonic 800U. Assuming the LCD user uses CNET's backlight 3 setting. I use that, but it's probably too dark for most LCD fans.

next year's new plasmas should cut the gap quite a bit.
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post #35 of 252 Old 11-19-2008, 03:23 PM
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Originally Posted by VarmintCong View Post

It's still true - the 46" 650 LCD uses like 140W, vs 280W for the 46" Panasonic 800U. Assuming the LCD user uses CNET's backlight 3 setting. I use that, but it's probably too dark for most LCD fans.

next year's new plasmas should cut the gap quite a bit.

But is that true watts usage? My point is that LCD's use a fairly steady wattage when "on" due to backlight, etc. Whereas Plasma displays can vary sharply in wattage between dark scenes and bright scenes. So in a month's use, LCD still may be a little better but the watt usage's real numbers between the Plasma is much smaller than previously stated.
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post #36 of 252 Old 11-19-2008, 04:20 PM
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Originally Posted by jaylotheman View Post


Size at this point isn't super important

thats what she said. lol

ok moving on, my first point of advice would be to read the main thread on this topic...lots of good info there in the sticky.

Second, plasma vs lcd really comes down to what your likes/dislikes are in picture quality--you can ask everyone else for advice, but to be perfectly honest, what bugs one person, you may not even notice. And what annoys the heck outta you may not even be an issue for others.

But the most one can do is lay out the facts for you, and you can identify which characteristics sound like they appeal or don't appeal to you, then go check them out in person and decide for yourself. Don't buy a plasma because people insist on it, and vice versa.

Brightness: Its just a fact that LCDs, particularly most of the 08 models, have much brighter displays than plasma. Does it come at a cost? yes, the darker colors will look washed out. But whites will look "whiter" whereas on plasmas they can almost look grey.

Blacks: again, you'll get deeper blacks with a plasma. Alot of LCDs have greyish blacks, and the brighter you set the backlight/brightness scale, the worse it is. The Samsung A650 glass panel LCD does a better job at displaying blacks than LCDs in the past, but can't even compare to a plasma.

Motion blur: LCDs will display fast moving images/sports/action blurry sometimes. This won't happen anywhere near as much on a plasma. Again though, for some people--huge problem, for others, not a big deal. But its one of the more widespread complaints of LCD.

Clouding, flashlighting, etc: LCD pictures will do this...the image will appear spotty sometimes, or brighter in some areas than others. Its a more subjective problem than motion blur--in that some owners will swear its a huge deal, others don't notice it.

Burn In - again less subjective--either it happens or it doesnt. but its a risk of buying a plasma, just like clouding, flashlighting can occur on an LCD.

Price - you'll get your 1080p set in a bigger size if you go plasma. Won't discuss specific prices but you'll get a 50" 1080p plasma from a good brand like panasonic for the lower end of your budget, while a similar sized nice LCD will run you likely out of your budget.

so those are the FACTS. do some research and come to some conclusions. But again, at the end of the day, its whatever Picture Quality your eye likes the best that matters.
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post #37 of 252 Old 11-19-2008, 06:43 PM
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You can add the question, do you watch TV alone? If so then you're probably fine. If not, then be aware of the high degree of color/chromaticity shift when viewing at angles over/under 10 degrees. That's right, per the recent article & study I mentioned above, "Even when viewers are seated close together side-by-side, each person will see a different picture with noticebly different coloration on an LCD".
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post #38 of 252 Old 11-19-2008, 07:17 PM
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I always laugh at why the plasma zealots have to defend there purchase.

I believe these type threads never have anything going for them.

These are just my opinions.
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post #39 of 252 Old 11-19-2008, 07:27 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by oldcband View Post

I always laugh at why the plasma zealots have to defend there purchase.

I believe these type threads never have anything going for them.

...and I always laugh at why some people ignore research, studies & AV Science, and think conspiracies lurk around every corner. BTW, I do not own a Plasma...yet.
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post #40 of 252 Old 11-20-2008, 01:30 AM
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Originally Posted by oldcband View Post

I always laugh at why the plasma zealots have to defend there purchase..

Actually theres no need to defend. Just look at the data and which television gives the better overall picture.
Plasma has the superior picture right now. Thats undeniable.

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Originally Posted by oldcband View Post

I believe these type threads never have anything going for them.

Yet you show up in just about every single one and contribute nothing but pointless remarks just like this one..

wHy So SeRiOus???



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post #41 of 252 Old 11-20-2008, 02:12 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DerekNJND View Post

thats what she said. lol


Brightness: Its just a fact that LCDs, particularly most of the 08 models, have much brighter displays than plasma. Does it come at a cost? yes, the darker colors will look washed out. But whites will look "whiter" whereas on plasmas they can almost look grey..

Plasmas are capable of displaying an accurate white.

I have always wondered why some place so much importance on being able to go brighter than needed for an accurate picture.
Do most LCD owners today not calibrate their set?
Do you guys blast your backlights on those LCD's???
Because for me, it looked horrible like that on my XBR4.
Sure it was brighter but who cares? That does not mean better.


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Originally Posted by DerekNJND View Post

Burn In - again less subjective--either it happens or it doesnt. but its a risk of buying a plasma, just like clouding, flashlighting can occur on an LCD. ..

Burn-in is not a risk like clouding, and flashlighting.
Burn-in should not even be given a second thought unless you are intentionally planning on abusing the set.
Burn-in comes from major major abuse. There is nothing you can do to stop clouding or flashlighting from happening..

wHy So SeRiOus???



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post #42 of 252 Old 11-20-2008, 03:34 AM
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When it comes to these types of threads the only merit was when Sharpbandaid brought to our attention about the brightness limiter in plasma.

How many times can someone type crap about the cons of LCD or plasma. Such a waste of ones energy breaking down this stuff over and over. Who cares what one buys.

But theres always the need to defend ones purchase.

These are just my opinions.
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post #43 of 252 Old 11-20-2008, 06:11 AM
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Originally Posted by westa6969 View Post

As a previous unhappy owner of a Panny Plasma and returned last week from vacation being forcefed a Viera POS for ten days this is what I detest about Panny Plasma as one that owned and would never own another even if offered up for free! I won't follow the herd of the Plasma Fanboys to a turd again. Yes they are CHEAP but so are the results IMO and experience!

The Panny Plasma has it's STRONG deficiencies IMO:
  • Dirty Yellow Gray WHITES - in fact no true white! Illusionary blacks - notice the smoked glass guys that diminish the whites.
  • Daytime Washout - Glare! If you have daytime SUN forget any dark video games or movies.
  • Reflective panel 24/7 to shave in and inventory the contents of your room.
  • Dull and Dim compared to a quality LCD.
  • No Shadow Details in those BLACKS.
  • Cartoonish Greens and periodic green tint and fringe around objects and trails.
  • Blurry inferior SD
  • Mine had ZERO WoW factor even at 50" vs. the SXRD I had previous to it and my current 57" Sharp.


Westa,

Sometimes I really enjoy your posts. Many times you have good things to say and you CAN be objective. But you really need to quit using comparisons from YEARS ago.

Is there really a need to keep posting information from a 10 day experience from 4 YEARS AGO with a Panasonic 50PX50U ???

Plasma does have it's negative issues but don't you think year old comparisons should be revisited? Technology has improved you know. The newer Panasonics are MUCH brighter than the TV you got years ago and the OOB whites are MUCH whiter than the model you had. No, there is no plasma that has brighter whites than LCDs and no doubt there is room for improvements in this area.

At the same time, please realize that not everyone out there lives in a glass house. A person's environment dictate's their PQ. I've seen the newest Sharp LCDs in Magnolia and HH Gregg and to be quite honest the PQ was awful in that environment. Yes it had whiter whites and it was brighter, but it had blue-ish blacks, a washed out picture, and no 3D'ish affect to the pic, etc. The Pioneer, Panasonic, and Samsung plasmas and LCDs like the Samsungs and Sony's looked so much better IMO.

And I've read posts of yours where you admitted that a big part of the WOW factor that you often referred to was related to picture size. Why do you keep belittling a 50" Panasonic plasma because it didn't give the same impact as a 57"-60" TV???
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post #44 of 252 Old 11-20-2008, 06:21 AM
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Originally Posted by RandyWalters View Post

How many years ago did you have this bad experience with the Panny Plasma?

He's been using this same comparison for years and sometimes it seems as if he's just cutting/pasting from posts he made from years ago.

I remember this well because he shot me down about 2 years ago because I stated that I liked my Panasonic 58PX600U over my Sony SXRD 60XBR1. I had both TVs in house and did side by side comparisions with the same feeds, however, he knew better than I because he had a Panasonic 50PX50U for 10 days (and returned it) and also had a Sony SXRD 60XBR1 (which he also kept for a week or so and sent back because of the WAF. Not to mention he never had either TV at the same time). Oh, and let's not forget that at the time his opinion was based off of his recollections from about a year prior to him shooting down my comparions.
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post #45 of 252 Old 11-20-2008, 06:28 AM
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To the OP, I would consider getting something like a 720p 50" Sammy or Panasonic plasma or else a Samsung 52" 650 LCD. There are pros and cons to both sides. The Samsung LCD's main higlight is that it will be brighter. The Plasmas will not be as bright but unless you have a lot of light in the room they should be plenty bright for you. The added resolution will likely not make that much of a difference since I didn't see list PC games. You should do some research though on LCDs as often times LCDs have lag issues when gaming as well as motion blur. If you are going to game for hours on end with the same game I'd check with some current owners about getting image retention and if that will be an issue for you.

Good luck!
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post #46 of 252 Old 11-20-2008, 07:11 AM
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Originally Posted by chadmak09 View Post

Plasmas are capable of displaying an accurate white.

Yes, but is that a calibrated white, or what I would consider realistic white?

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Originally Posted by chadmak09 View Post

I have always wondered why some place so much importance on being able to go brighter than needed for an accurate picture.

You have asked this question before and I will just say that "accurate" means different things to different people. A calibrated set (for me) is to dim and does not reflect what I feel real life is. JMO

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Do most LCD owners today not calibrate their set?

I would say no. For most people who buy an LCD at least here, they buy it specifically for the brightness and calibration often interfers with this.

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Do you guys blast your backlights on those LCD's???

NO. Is mine set at the midpoint? No, it is about +5 past middle on my set, no where near the max. I will fiddle with it from time to time, I like to tweak things.
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Originally Posted by chadmak09 View Post

Because for me, it looked horrible like that on my XBR4.

I hear you. Sony processing I think is the best, but I have seen on many Sony sets this almost cartoon look to things and in that case the brightness should be turned down. Maybe some would call it "Clayface", I don't know if this is correct.
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post #47 of 252 Old 11-20-2008, 07:44 AM
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Originally Posted by TNG View Post

...You have asked this question before and I will just say that "accurate" means different things to different people. A calibrated set (for me) is to dim and does not reflect what I feel real life is. JMO...

I agree with this too. All current TV technologies have some type of limitations and while calibration is to bring out the most accurate image, I still think that on the upper end of the spectrum that white level brightness isn't quite what it should be to give a true to life type whites. Not to mention, how much lighting (and what type of lighting) is in a persons room greatly affects what kind of white levels are needed. And IMO while I do really like my Kuro, it just doesn't have enough umph in white level brightness for all environments(not to mention the limitations at hand due to the ABL in plasmas).
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post #48 of 252 Old 11-20-2008, 08:15 AM
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Originally Posted by cajieboy View Post

But is that true watts usage? My point is that LCD's use a fairly steady wattage when "on" due to backlight, etc. Whereas Plasma displays can vary sharply in wattage between dark scenes and bright scenes. So in a month's use, LCD still may be a little better but the watt usage's real numbers between the Plasma is much smaller than previously stated.

CNET uses a 10 minute test DVD meant to test power usage, so it most likely accounts for any differences you're talking about.

The big difference is calibration - the A650 52" uses 220W in standard (BL = 5) and 140W calibrated (BL = 3). I noticed often the plasmas are the reverse - power goes up when calibrated.
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post #49 of 252 Old 11-20-2008, 08:19 AM
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Originally Posted by oldcband View Post

When it comes to these types of threads the only merit was when Sharpbandaid brought to our attention about the brightness limiter in plasma.

How many times can someone type crap about the cons of LCD or plasma. Such a waste of ones energy breaking down this stuff over and over. Who cares what one buys.

But theres always the need to defend ones purchase.

I would call this thread entertaining and helpful look at all the hits its gotten in a short time I love it .......Some of us sometimes take things personally like in a lot threads no big deal that's just the way it is. I can't stand boring threads. To the OP I am a plasma person IMO the Pioneer wins hands down but, if I were a gamer I would not chance it the burn-in could happen if accidentally abused like fallen asleep without turning the equipment off. My kids have a panny 60u that does have slight burn-in on it but, I have to admit they abuse the hell out of it and the burn-in isn't that bad...To the power issue I have a 50inch plasma, 42inch plasma, and a 26inch lcd and haven't noticed any huge increase on my bill its so minimal I wouldn't worry about it.

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post #50 of 252 Old 11-20-2008, 08:19 AM
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Plasma fans tend to think the Kuros represent all plasmas. They don't. The 5020 definitely looks better than my 650 LCD, but a Panasonic 85U does not. I would have bought it if it did, since it's cheaper and has a sweet free BD player!
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post #51 of 252 Old 11-20-2008, 08:24 AM
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At some point I will get a plasma, and I used to be a LCD fanboy. The issue for me is that the brightness will have to get better, and I will need to have WAF approval for a set that will be for movies only.

That being said, I do enjoy my LCD sets.
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post #52 of 252 Old 11-20-2008, 09:05 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TNG View Post

At some point I will get a plasma, and I used to be a LCD fanboy. The issue for me is that the brightness will have to get better, and I will need to have WAF approval for a set that will be for movies only.

That being said, I do enjoy my LCD sets.

TNG, what happens to an lcd when a professional calibrates it, it now looks more like a plasma with the whites dimmed to the point that it looks like a plasma that tells me that the plasma has a more accurate and more natural looking picture. Most people that walk into a store and see all the plasmas on the left and all the LCD's on the right are usually attracted to the LCD's because of the brightness and this is why most are buying LCD's without really researching the truth about the two. IMO I think plasma's will be ran out of town because of the demand of LCD's and the companies will make what sells so plasma folks keep representing your plasma's we might not be around that much longer IMO. Most people I know have LCDs and every time I go into a store customers are leaving with LCD's..........

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post #53 of 252 Old 11-20-2008, 09:21 AM
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Originally Posted by audio-junky View Post

TNG, what happens to an lcd when a professional calibrates it, it now looks more like a plasma with the whites dimmed to the point that it looks like a plasma that tells me that the plasma has a more accurate and more natural looking picture. Most people that walk into a store and see all the plasmas on the left and all the LCD's on the right are usually attracted to the LCD's because of the brightness and this is why most are buying LCD's without really researching the truth about the two. IMO I think plasma's will be ran out of town because of the demand of LCD's and the companies will make what sells so plasma folks keep representing your plasma's we might not be around that much longer IMO. Most people I know have LCDs and every time I go into a store customers are leaving with LCD's..........

I don't think plasmas will be ran out of town. Brightness is definitely a selling point and after owning several plasmas I know they are brighter in home but they still pull me in when viewing in bright store lighting. Having said that, next year 5 lumen technology is supposed to close the gap somewhat between plasma and LCD and this technology is supposed to be cheaper to produce. I don't think plasma's days are limited. I think both will be around for a while as both are still improving and I don't see SED or any other technology producing decent sized displays any time soon.
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post #54 of 252 Old 11-20-2008, 09:36 AM
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Originally Posted by xb1032 View Post

I don't think plasmas will be ran out of town. Brightness is definitely a selling point and after owning several plasmas I know they are brighter in home but they still pull me in when viewing in bright store lighting. Having said that, next year 5 lumen technology is supposed to close the gap somewhat between plasma and LCD and this technology is supposed to be cheaper to produce. I don't think plasma's days are limited. I think both will be around for a while as both are still improving and I don't see SED or any other technology producing decent sized displays any time soon.

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post #55 of 252 Old 11-20-2008, 01:36 PM
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Originally Posted by audio-junky View Post

TNG, what happens to an lcd when a professional calibrates it, it now looks more like a plasma with the whites dimmed to the point that it looks like a plasma that tells me that the plasma has a more accurate and more natural looking picture.....

I think that the other thing that I have seen with professional calibration is that i makes the picture softer somehow. It is not fuzzy or blurry, just a softer picture like all the hard edges have had the sharpness taken out of them, or maybe I am not explaining it correctly.

Calibration is good for color accuracy though. I spent tens of hours getting the color in on mine, but I do like to do that type of thing.
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post #56 of 252 Old 11-20-2008, 03:28 PM
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According to all the factual data, and scientific research, plasma technology (well, I am referring to what Pioneer has done) has come so close to perfection in regards to overall PQ (again, I am talking about the standards in which film is mastered, not personal preference). Technically, there are things that need to be improved upon, before any claims of total perfection can be made.

Here are some of the things that need to be addressed.

Phosphor trails- All plasmas have this effect to varying degrees.

Image Retention- Complete abscence of it (I doubt this will ever happen, due to it's means of operation)

Buzzing- I have seen, nor heard a plasma that didn't buzz. Ones ability to hear it is a different story. Personally, I hear no buz on my 151, yet hear it loud and clear on my Pro-950

Dithering- Again, this varies from manufacturer to manufacturer.

ABL Limiter- If this can be improved upon, it will appeal to the masses.

Unfortunately, things like director intent, standards, and overall PQ are things that have to be explained to the general consumer. If there is something that is undeniable, it is that the american consumer is in constant search to be told what to do. I mean, look at the state of our current economy. Would we be here today, if people just thought for themselves, instead of what they were told was "best" for them?
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post #57 of 252 Old 11-20-2008, 04:50 PM
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http://hubpages.com/hub/Plasma-TV-vs...hich-is-Better

Here's a good article comparing the 2 technologies. Both plasma and lcd tv's have improved a bit since the article was written, but I believe it to be a fair assessment.
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post #58 of 252 Old 11-20-2008, 05:20 PM
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Thanks guys. More belly laughs is good for my health.

These are just my opinions.
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post #59 of 252 Old 11-20-2008, 06:53 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by oldcband View Post

When it comes to these types of threads the only merit was when Sharpbandaid brought to our attention about the brightness limiter in plasma. .

And I guess its just a coincidence that the only thing you think has merit is something that points out a limitation of plasma?

If you like your display super bright and inaccurate then thats your preference. Personally I enjoy accuracy over something that looks flashy in bestbuy.

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Originally Posted by oldcband View Post

How many times can someone type crap about the cons of LCD or plasma. Such a waste of ones energy breaking down this stuff over and over. Who cares what one buys..

You arent making any sense to me.
If you think its a waste of energy then why do you keep showing up?

Quote:
Originally Posted by oldcband View Post

But theres always the need to defend ones purchase.

For Some people this might be true.
But when it comes to myself and many other Kuro owners that frequent these threads, We have owned both LCD and Plasma.
And if we felt LCD to be at all superior, then we would definitly have one in our homes no doubt.
If for one second we thought that LCD was the better picture, Then we would snatch up that Kuro and replace it with an LCD so fast it would make heads spin.
Many of us could care less if a set is LCD or Plasma. We just want what renders the best picture. And thats Plasma right now.

Combat that with something other than personal preference for a display to be brighter than needed for proper calibration, burn-in bologna, or complaints about phosphor trails that 99% of people don't even see (but coincidentally, you can see them immediatly, but cannot spot LCD motion blurr at all) and I might listen and consider LCD once again.

Sure, if you plan on putting the TV in a room with multiple 10 foot windows that you plan on leaving wide open and let the sun hit the panel most of the time, Then get yourself an LCD.

Myself, I care about contrast, black level, color accuracy, motion performance (without artificial enhansment like interpolation), a 3-D like image, screen uniformity, being able to view the TV at different angles without image degradation, color saturation. etc.

wHy So SeRiOus???



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post #60 of 252 Old 11-20-2008, 07:01 PM
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Nice thread. Learning a lot here
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