Plasma Vs. LCD - Page 4 - AVS Forum
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post #91 of 252 Old 11-25-2008, 12:51 PM
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Originally Posted by ramazur View Post

Disecting my example, which may not be the best, does not change the fact that all plasmas, including the king of plasmas, have a terrible problem rendering white.

"Terrible" is opinion, not fact. I do not find the whites on my plasma terrible by any means. OK, so I will admit that is also opinion and not fact, but a real fact is that my plasma has never displayed a pure white as gray as the "Plasma Concepts" ad at the top of the page.

I won't deny that there is room for improvement, but you are as guilty as any other fanboy of exaggerating weaknesses and downplaying strengths of the opposing technology.
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post #92 of 252 Old 11-25-2008, 02:21 PM
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What I find most annoying in the never-ending plasma vs. LCD debate is not the subtle technological differences between the two. It is the plasma camp mantra how the stupid buyers sheepishly follow pushy and living-in-the-past salemen and end up buying LCDs more than plasmas of similar size.

Once I told a BB salesman this: "You have 10 minutes. Tell me why, on the basis what we are seeing right now (we were standing in front of a 50-inch Pioneer plasma with a clear view of the 52A650) I should buy the Pioneer rather than the Samsung on the basis of the picture alone". He said he couldn't. He did say something to the effect that once I take home, have it calibrated, shake it, bake it and put it a dark room,...etc. This is a frog-will-be-a-prince-when-you-kiss-it line. Right now and here it's a frog. The princess, the 650, left no doubt about it.

If the sales guys push LCDs, as some surveys claim, it can be for only one reason: they figured out that a 10-minute encounter with Joe 6P will more likely result in a sale when a saleman goes with Joe's visual experience rather than telling Joe about his lying eyes and that he needs to see an eye doctor soon.

Anyone wants to play a salesman-in-a-showroom now and try to explain why the picture on a Pioneer is better than, say, the LN52A650 without getting into sample-and-hold, milliseconds and such? Here is your chance.
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post #93 of 252 Old 11-25-2008, 02:29 PM
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Originally Posted by westa6969 View Post

As a previous unhappy owner of a Panny Plasma and returned last week from vacation being forcefed a Viera POS for ten days this is what I detest about Panny Plasma as one that owned and would never own another even if offered up for free! I won't follow the herd of the Plasma Fanboys to a turd again. Yes they are CHEAP but so are the results IMO and experience!

The Panny Plasma has it's STRONG deficiencies IMO:
  • Daytime Washout - Glare! If you have daytime SUN forget any dark video games or movies.
  • Reflective panel 24/7 to shave in and inventory the contents of your room.
  • Dull and Dim compared to a quality LCD.

Aren't plasma's considered only for "dark" rooms? If so, why would you even consider one, knowing all of the above before hand. This has been talked about numerous times.

LCD = lots of light
Plasma = minimal light
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post #94 of 252 Old 11-25-2008, 03:18 PM
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Originally Posted by ramazur View Post

Anyone wants to play a salesman-in-a-showroom now and try to explain why the picture on a Pioneer is better than, say, the LN52A650 without getting into sample-and-hold, milliseconds and such? Here is your chance.

Color accuracy, contrast, black levels, motion, viewing angles, glare. But don't take my word for it. Do your research, you will find every single professional review rates the Pioneer the better overall TV.

That simple enough for ya?
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post #95 of 252 Old 11-25-2008, 03:20 PM
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Originally Posted by UWisconsin97 View Post

Aren't plasma's considered only for "dark" rooms? If so, why would you even consider one, knowing all of the above before hand. This has been talked about numerous times.

LCD = lots of light
Plasma = minimal light

Yes, it has been talked about numerous times but no, they are not only for dark rooms. In fact the Pioneer Elite was rated better in bright environments than a Samsung 950 LCD by CNet.

LCD is usually best in bright lighted areas but modern plasmas do just fine in most rooms, better than CRTs ever did.
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post #96 of 252 Old 11-25-2008, 03:37 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by UWisconsin97 View Post

Aren't plasma's considered only for "dark" rooms? If so, why would you even consider one, knowing all of the above before hand. This has been talked about numerous times.

LCD = lots of light
Plasma = minimal light

You are right. Plasmas are for dark rooms only.

These are just my opinions.
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post #97 of 252 Old 11-25-2008, 04:08 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ramazur View Post

What I find most annoying in the never-ending plasma vs. LCD debate is not the subtle technological differences between the two. It is the plasma camp mantra how the stupid buyers sheepishly follow pushy and living-in-the-past salemen and end up buying LCDs more than plasmas of similar size.

Once I told a BB salesman this: "You have 10 minutes. Tell me why, on the basis what we are seeing right (we were standing in front of a 50-inch Pioneer plasma with a clear view of the 52A650) I should buy the Pioneer rather than the Samsung on the basis of the picture alone". He said he couldn't. He did say something to the effect that once I take home, have it calibrated, shake it, bake it and put it a dark room,...etc. This is a frog-will-be-a-prince-when-you-kiss-it line. Right now and here it's a frog. The princess, the 650, left no doubt about it.

If the sales guys push LCDs, as some surveys claim, it can be for only one reason: they figured out that a 10-minute encounter with Joe 6P will more likely result in a sale when a saleman goes with Joe's visual experience rather than telling Joe about his lying eyes and that he needs to see an eye doctor soon.



Anyone wants to play a salesman-in-a-showroom now and try to explain why the picture on a Pioneer is better than, say, the LN52A650 without getting into sample-and-hold, milliseconds and such? Here is your chance.

i would've told you to take one step to the left, or right, and then asked what you saw.
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post #98 of 252 Old 11-25-2008, 04:37 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by plmn View Post

In fact the Pioneer Elite was rated better in bright environments than a Samsung 950 LCD by CNet.

LCD is usually best in bright lighted areas but modern plasmas do just fine in most rooms, better than CRTs ever did.

CNET reviews are almost a total waste. I wouldn't trust them with one review, on anything.

I just can't see how a reflective screen and lots of ambient light go well together. A matte LCD screen and lots of ambient light DO go well together.
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post #99 of 252 Old 11-25-2008, 06:03 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by UWisconsin97 View Post

Aren't plasma's considered only for "dark" rooms? If so, why would you even consider one, knowing all of the above before hand. This has been talked about numerous times.

LCD = any light
Plasma = minimal light

A prospective buyer should be informed about this product limitation by the plasma manufacturers.

The reason I made the highlighted change is that I can easily adjust the backlight of my LCD for night viewing - with a moderate ambient light - to make the blacks really black while retaining the same CR. This makes the LCDs good for all lighting conditions. Plasmas cannot be adjusted for daytime viewing in a similar manner. As a result, their blacks suffer because the ambient light allows the viewer to see the gray coating inside the plasma cells or whatever it is that looks gray when the set is off. No adjustment is available to turn the cell gray appearance into pitch black. With a full-screen white being medium gray due to the power limiter built into the set (I admit that when white is a small fraction of the total picture plasmas are fine in this department) and the black being just dark gray for the reasons I just mentioned, how can anybody claim high plasma CR during daytime is beyond my capability to understand.
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post #100 of 252 Old 11-25-2008, 06:49 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fanaticalism View Post

i would've told you to take one step to the left, or right, and then asked what you saw.

If you are refering to the off-center image degradation LCDs suffer from, you are correct. I admitted this in my post #89. Quote:

So, LCD guys, other than the plasma's better off-center PQ and better blacks when seen in total darkness, concede nothing.
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post #101 of 252 Old 11-25-2008, 08:06 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by UWisconsin97 View Post

CNET reviews are almost a total waste. I wouldn't trust them with one review, on anything.

I just can't see how a reflective screen and lots of ambient light go well together. A matte LCD screen and lots of ambient light DO go well together.

Thats funny ,
Because here you are in the "HDTV flat panel for Xbox360, PS3?" Thread pointing other members to a CNET review:
Quote:
Originally Posted by nombrecinq View Post

I'm planning on getting some new game systems, but I'm unaware of what's good for the Xbox360 and PS3 that supports 1080p. Please share your opinions and experience, thanks!




Quote:
Originally Posted by UWisconsin97 View Post

Hope this helps...


http://reviews.cnet.com/4520-6449_7-...?tag=cnetfd.mt


There is, and always will be the great debate over LCD and Plasma.. so I just went with CRT, since the weight and physical size doesn't bother me.

Gaming on CRT's is incredible.


I guess CNET reviews are fine unless they disagree with your opinions huh???
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post #102 of 252 Old 11-25-2008, 08:12 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by UWisconsin97 View Post

Aren't plasma's considered only for "dark" rooms? If so, why would you even consider one, knowing all of the above before hand. This has been talked about numerous times.

LCD = lots of light
Plasma = minimal light



Front projectors are for dark rooms. I'm talking zero light leak from any window. Of course you don't need a absolutely dark room for plasma, but some curtains or shades closed might help. If you prefer to watch with the sun shining on it and have a bright room and watch tv alot in the daytime with all your windows open, then a matte screen lcd will work better. The only lcd's i like though are glossy screen samsungs.
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post #103 of 252 Old 11-25-2008, 08:27 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ramazur View Post

A prospective buyer should be informed about this product limitation by the plasma manufacturers.

The reason I made the highlighted change is that I can easily adjust the backlight of my LCD for night viewing - with a moderate ambient light - to make the blacks really black while retaining the same CR. This makes the LCDs good for all lighting conditions. Plasmas cannot be adjusted for daytime viewing in a similar manner. As a result, their blacks suffer because the ambient light allows the viewer to see the gray coating inside the plasma cells or whatever it is that looks gray when the set is off. No adjustment is available to turn the cell gray appearance into pitch black. With a full-screen white being medium gray due to the power limiter built into the set (I admit that when white is a small fraction of the total picture plasmas are fine in this department) and the black being just dark gray for the reasons I just mentioned, how can anybody claim high plasma CR during daytime is beyond my capability to understand.

Actually LCD's are not good in any lighting.
The newer Samsung LCD's have a surface that reflects badly.
They are worse in lit areas with reflections than any flatpanel I have ever seen.
Alot of good that brightness does you when your stareing at a reflection of a window or lamp.
And I did not come to this conclusion by a 3 minute walkby in BB/CC like you have with the Kuro, I have actually owned one and had it in my home.

And in the same position in my living room, the Samsung was more bothersome and a problem with ambient lighting than any of the Plasma's I have had.
I Simply had no choice but the draw the curtains during the day. With my Kuro, I don't have to do that.

And with Matte screen LCD's,
when exposed to light, reveal some problems also. For one thing, light spreads throughout the entirety of the screen, affecting the entire panel as opposed to one or two concentrated areas of light like on reflective diplays.
Also, when a matte finish is exposed to light, black levels turn to grey, reds to pink; the colors wash-out and pastelize. This throws off color balance and shadow detail ability of the set. And picture field depth is compromised, making the set have a paper effect rather than appear 3-D.
Matte screen LCDs act like a sponge and absorbe the ambient light the same way the diffuser does behind the screen. This effects Black levels and color.
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post #104 of 252 Old 11-26-2008, 07:36 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by plmn View Post

Color accuracy, contrast, black levels, motion, viewing angles, glare. But don't take my word for it. Do your research, you will find every single professional review rates the Pioneer the better overall TV.

That simple enough for ya?

Yes, it is simple enough for me. But this not what I am writing about. My point is that it is hard or impossible to make a compelling case for plasmas vs. LCDs in a showroom during a 10-minute sales presentation to a typical shopper. Let's take the features you mentioned one by one:

1. Color accuracy. In the showrooms the only point of reference Joe 6P can use is human flash, which plasmas tend to show too dark and too red. Thanksgiving turkey look that way, not people. Sony LCDs are a lot more accurate in the showroom in this regard. What Jor will not see are all these color charts that only the calibrators and their customers understand. Score one for the LCD.

2. Contrast. While in the showroom, Joe will wait when the demo shows mostly white and notiice that the plasma is gray and the LCD next to it white. No contest. Then he will notice that the blacks on the LCD are more black than on the plasma. He will not know or care about the construction details and why this is happening. Score another for the LCDs.

3. Black levels. In the showroom, plasmas have lousy blacks because of the ambient light and the grayness of what inside the screen. This combination sets a lower limit on the perceived level of black. The effect is that and those promised super blacks cannot be demonstrated to Joe. As some posters already admitted, LCDs thrive is a well lighted environment. Score another for the LCDs.

4. Motion. In the showroom, they typically show either slow-moving objects like a person talking or some really crazy and jerky action. Neither will reveal the advantage that plasma still has over LCDs. Only a slow A tie.

5. Viewing angles. The problem is that the saleman will not alert Joe to this syndrome - why should he? - and Joe is not that well informed to look for it. Either way, plasma wins.

6. Glare. This one is really simple: Joe will quickly realize he can see reflections in ALL plasmas but only in SOME of the LCDs. He will most likely buy the latter. Score another for the LCDs.

As far as me doing some research, I already did. It is about plasmas competing with LCDs for Joe's credit card. The competition is in the showrooms, not a calibrator's lab.
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post #105 of 252 Old 11-26-2008, 08:09 AM
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Originally Posted by oldcband View Post

You are right. Plasmas are for dark rooms only.

No they are not for dark rooms only. I watch mine in a very bright room and it's leagues better than the tube TVs that you've been watching for 50 years. When will the disinformation cease?

Check this thread:
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=769318

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post #106 of 252 Old 11-26-2008, 08:11 AM
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Originally Posted by chadmak09 View Post

Actually LCD's are not good in any lighting.
The newer Samsung LCD's have a surface that reflects badly.
They are worse in lit areas with reflections than any flatpanel I have ever seen.
Alot of good that brightness does you when your stareing at a reflection of a window or lamp.
And I did not come to this conclusion by a 3 minute walkby in BB/CC like you have with the Kuro, I have actually owned one and had it in my home.

And in the same position in my living room, the Samsung was more bothersome and a problem with ambient lighting than any of the Plasma's I have had.
I Simply had no choice but the draw the curtains during the day. With my Kuro, I don't have to do that.

And with Matte screen LCD's,
when exposed to light, reveal some problems also. For one thing, light spreads throughout the entirety of the screen, affecting the entire panel as opposed to one or two concentrated areas of light like on reflective diplays.
Also, when a matte finish is exposed to light, black levels turn to grey, reds to pink; the colors wash-out and pastelize. This throws off color balance and shadow detail ability of the set. And picture field depth is compromised, making the set have a paper effect rather than appear 3-D.
Matte screen LCDs act like a sponge and absorbe the ambient light the same way the diffuser does behind the screen. This effects Black levels and color.

My LCD HDTV has a Matte screen and the blacks look black, reds look red and the colors don't wash out. Try not to generalize next time.
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post #107 of 252 Old 11-26-2008, 08:11 AM
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Pure PQ=Plasma Wins


JoeSixPack will be fooled in the showrooms though with thousands of watts shining on them. LCD=JoeSixPack.
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post #108 of 252 Old 11-26-2008, 08:27 AM
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Originally Posted by ramazur View Post

As far as me doing some research, I already did. It is about plasmas competing with LCDs for Joe's credit card. The competition is in the showrooms, not a calibrator's lab.

I was playing salesman like you asked, not telling you to personally do more research.

I don't understand what you are trying to accomplish. You asked for simple differences specifically comparing the 52a650 to a Pioneer and when given straightforward answers you now try to complicate them, change the comparison, and dismiss the average person's ability to see these differences or understand what they are being told.

In other words, you are telling us the average LCD buyer is too stupid to understand the differences even when they are specifically pointed out.
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post #109 of 252 Old 11-26-2008, 08:40 AM
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Originally Posted by plmn View Post

In other words, you are telling us the average LCD buyer is too stupid to understand the differences even when they are specifically pointed out.

English is my second language. In comparison to other posters, I do not find it inferior or less clear. If I wanted to say what you think I said I would have said it. Here is an abridged version: It is an impossible task for a saleman to show that plasmas are better than LCDs in a typical showroom. Clear enough?
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post #110 of 252 Old 11-26-2008, 10:04 AM
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Anyone who has their TV setup in such a way that direct sunlight hits it will be disappointed matte screen or gloss. My SXRD had a matte screen and it looked poor during the evening when the sun would set and direct lighting hit the screen. Matte screens are overrated IMO. A screen with some gloss to it bring the picture alive regardless if it's LCD or plasma. Just my 2 cents though.
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post #111 of 252 Old 11-26-2008, 10:32 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ramazur View Post

English is my second language. In comparison to other posters, I do not find it inferior or less clear. If I wanted to say what you think I said I would have said it. Here is an abridged version: It is an impossible task for a saleman to show Joe that plasmas are better than LCDs in a typical showroom. Clear enough?


You asked for the salesman to explain it, not prove it visually in a bright environment.

Your English is fine, it's the way you change the rules as you go to fit the results you want that is rather annoying. Especially after ranting about plasma fanboys.

To prove it visually in a showroom environment one would need to turn the lights down to more natural room levels, adjust the pictures closer to what people will have them set to in their homes, and play quality source material though an HDMI input. Oddly enough, many "non-box" stores that cater to serious videophiles do exactly this. In the absence of this all you can do is explain.

So again, I ask you what you point is. LCDs usually look better in very bright lighting. Nobody is disputing that. Yes, salesmen at places like Best Buy are usually stupid and uninformed and the TVs are usually set at a vividness that most people will not use at home. I fail to see how that relates to which technology is superior for the use and conditions the average consumer will subject it to.
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post #112 of 252 Old 11-26-2008, 10:50 AM
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Originally Posted by xb1032 View Post

Anyone who has their TV setup in such a way that direct sunlight hits it will be disappointed matte screen or gloss. My SXRD had a matte screen and it looked poor during the evening when the sun would set and direct lighting hit the screen. Matte screens are overrated IMO. A screen with some gloss to it bring the picture alive regardless if it's LCD or plasma. Just my 2 cents though.

Yeah, despite the back and forth we often see here, that is really personal preference.

I like the anti-reflective screen on my Panasonic, it's a good compromise for me. You definately get a bit more pop with gloss but I was pretty tired of seeing reflections of everything in the room (including myself) on my old glossy TV. It still reflects direct light pretty well but other reflections are significantly improved.

The glossy bezel, on the other hand, is just plain stupid.
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post #113 of 252 Old 11-26-2008, 10:50 AM
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Yeah Joe Beergut picks the lcd, if Joe does a bit of research he still picks lcd, maybe if joe goes to a properly setup room at a high end store he likes plasma, but in the end he buys lcd.
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post #114 of 252 Old 11-26-2008, 01:06 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HomieDaClown View Post

My LCD HDTV has a Matte screen and the blacks look black, reds look red and the colors don't wash out. Try not to generalize next time.

In heavy ambient light, yes, your Matte LCD does wash out. IT sucks the light in like a sponge instead of reflecting it out.
Its not a matter of opinion, is science.
Matte screens do look better than most plasmas in heavy ambient light, but they still don't look good.
None of this matters anyway if you put your TV in a spot that anyone that even knows a little about home theater dynamics would.

Even with my Sony XBR4, I still made sure I didn't watch in heavy ambient light. It wasn't made to be viewed this way.
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post #115 of 252 Old 11-26-2008, 01:08 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by xb1032 View Post

Anyone who has their TV setup in such a way that direct sunlight hits it will be disappointed matte screen or gloss. My SXRD had a matte screen and it looked poor during the evening when the sun would set and direct lighting hit the screen. Matte screens are overrated IMO. A screen with some gloss to it bring the picture alive regardless if it's LCD or plasma. Just my 2 cents though.

exactly.
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post #116 of 252 Old 11-26-2008, 01:27 PM
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Originally Posted by chadmak09 View Post

In heavy ambient light, yes, your Matte LCD does wash out. IT sucks the light in like a sponge instead of reflecting it out.
Its not a matter of opinion, is science.
Matte screens do look better than most plasmas in heavy ambient light, but they still don't look good.
None of this matters anyway if you put your TV in a spot that anyone that even knows a little about home theater dynamics would.

Even with my Sony XBR4, I still made sure I didn't watch in heavy ambient light. It wasn't made to be viewed this way.

So you're telling me that my HDTV washes out when I have sunlight shining right onto it? Wrong.
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post #117 of 252 Old 11-26-2008, 02:10 PM
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Originally Posted by plmn View Post

So again, I ask you what you point is.

My point - as clear as a bell and highlighted - is in my Post 109. I can't make it any clearer. The reasons are in Post 104.
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post #118 of 252 Old 11-26-2008, 02:35 PM
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Originally Posted by ramazur View Post

My point - as clear as a bell and highlighted - is in my Post 109. I can't make it any clearer. The reasons are in Post 104.

But that's not an impossible task. To you, perhaps, but obviously not to a large number of posters here. And it doesn't help anybody trying to decide what TV is best for them, which is the topic at hand.
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post #119 of 252 Old 11-26-2008, 02:58 PM
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Originally Posted by plmn View Post

But that's not an impossible task. To you, perhaps, but obviously not to a large number of posters here. And it doesn't help anybody trying to decide what TV is best for them, which is the topic at hand.

Did you notice that my main characters are a typical salesman and a typical customer, Joe, not me or anyone who posts at AVS? We are well informed and we never ever go to BB to ask for an advice like "help me decide". So once again, I claim that there is nothing that the salesman can show Joe to make him chose plasma over LCD other than off-center PQ.
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post #120 of 252 Old 11-26-2008, 03:00 PM
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Originally Posted by chadmak09 View Post

Matte screen LCDs act like a sponge and absorbe the ambient light the same way the diffuser does behind the screen. This effects Black levels and color.

Isn't this good for LCDs ?
(Sorry, couldn't resist )

.
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