Are DVDs really 480p? 480p vs. 720p question. - Page 3 - AVS Forum
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post #61 of 145 Old 06-29-2014, 12:31 PM
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Originally Posted by Mike99 View Post
WMC can also display quite a bit of data. I know it will indicate the source resolution but am not sure about other source data. You may want to try it. Press 4-1-1-Ctrl "D" while playing the DVD in WMC.
Hi Mike,
What's WMC?
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post #62 of 145 Old 06-29-2014, 12:36 PM
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Joe,
Would you kindly correct that in your original reply? That way, anyone in the future who reads it won't be confused as they may not see your retraction.
I have done.
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post #63 of 145 Old 06-29-2014, 12:37 PM
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Sorry that was a typo. I meant 1440x1080. Which was used by some HD cameras, the BBC for broadcasts and is one of the resolutions in the Blu-ray spec.
Oh, that's a DAR=4:3. I thought you were talking about digital media.
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post #64 of 145 Old 06-29-2014, 12:40 PM
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Originally Posted by markfilipak View Post
Oh, that's a DAR=4:3. I thought you were talking about digital media.
The display aspect ratio of 1440x1080 is 16:9 - it was used by BBC HD digital broadcasts, the Blu-ray spec (though no commercial Blu-ray that I know of uses it), certain HD cameras.
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post #65 of 145 Old 06-29-2014, 12:47 PM
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The display aspect ratio of 1440x1080 is 16:9 - it was used by BBC HD digital broadcasts, the Blu-ray spec (though no commercial Blu-ray that I know of uses it), certain HD cameras.
Oh, okay. I think I get it. BBC was broadcasting HD that had 1440x1080 frames (SAR=4:3), but the content's display was (DAR=) 16:9, so the stream indicated a PAR (pixel aspect ratio) of 16:9/4:3 = 4:3 instead of 1:1 (i.e., square). Right?

I sure wish I could see these streams. Do they have headers like RIF files have headers?
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post #66 of 145 Old 06-29-2014, 12:55 PM
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Originally Posted by markfilipak View Post
Oh, okay. I think I get it. BBC was broadcasting HD that had 1440x1080 frames (SAR=4:3), but the content's display was (DAR=) 16:9, so the stream indicated a PAR (pixel aspect ratio) of 16:9/4:3 = 4:3 instead of 1:1 (i.e., square). Right?

I sure wish I could see these streams. Do they have headers like RIF files have headers?
I don't know the details of the streams, I didn't analyse them or anything technical . But on the forums/blogs etc. people were complaining to the BBC about it's HD channel(s) broadcasting in 1440x1080i instead of 1920x1080i and they thought they weren't getting the best picture. I think the BBC wanted to keep using a lower bitrate and were worried that increasing the resolution but keeping the low bitrate would give a worse picture, and were saying most of their cameras at the time were only capturing (or had an effective resolution no more than) 1440x1080 or were giving other reasons to not increase it.

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post #67 of 145 Old 06-29-2014, 12:58 PM
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Originally Posted by markfilipak View Post
This:
Enigma by Sony Pictures/Columbia TriStar Home Entertainment
CAT# 08734, UPC 043396087347
(which I own) was succeeded by this:
Enigma by Sony Pictures/Columbia TriStar Home Entertainment
CAT# 00749, UPC 043396007499
about a year later. Why do you suppose Sony would do that for such a small film? I want to investigate my copy for evidence to force (or shame) Sony to replace it with the newer transfer. Manufacturers should be forced to recall defective product. Try to contact Sony about this... You can't. They have no way to contact them via anything you can find on their site. If you do find a phone number and phone Sony, they tell you to contact the factory that pressed the DVD and then they hang up on you. I'm not kidding. That has happened to me and to others who I've found through Internet searches. That kind of behavior has to end and I have the time and knowledge and inclination to force the situation.

I doubt it was for correcting the authoring errors. As for proof it is the defective disc, you can't. DVD spec, when it was originally designed, only specifies 480i interlaced output as the requirement. The fact that newer DVD players try to output 480p is not required by the spec and most players don't de-interlace well at all. So, yes, it is an authoring error but no, the player or playback software needs to be capable of recognize this and do the proper handling. That's why a good progressive DVD player is hard to come by and expensive too in the old days.


BD changed all that. 24p and 60p progressive videos are allowed to be natively encoded on the disc. So that the players won't need to do any guess work to determine if it is progressive or interlace.

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Are there many DVDs encoded at 24 fps progressive? I've never seen one that wasn't interlaced.

Many cheaper Blu-ray players can't telecine 1080p24 content to 1080i60 correctly. So if they cut corners with a Blu-ray player chances are many DVD players are the same.

It can be better to buy a 576i version of a DVD and play it slowed down by 4% than buy the 480i version with lower resolution and undefeatable jitter.

DVDs are restricted to 10 megabits not 5. Many are encoded at 5 but there is a huge quality boost closer to 10. I've seen DVDs encoded at as low as 1.75 megabits.

see above. The only video formats allowed is 480i interlaced video on a DVD disc. 24p videos need to be telecined and flagged as such. But a lot of DVDs are known to mix both progressive and interlaced video in the same stream. While it worked out fine for 480i interlaced outputs, it is extremely difficult for 480p progressive output because sometimes the studio either forgot the progressive flag or flagged the wrong segments.


At the end of the day, why bother. We have BD now. It is light years better than DVD.

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post #68 of 145 Old 06-29-2014, 01:14 PM
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At the end of the day, why bother. We have BD now. It is light years better than DVD.
True, but we still have 1920x1080@50i and 60i on Blu-ray as well as 720x480i and 720x576i. They still haven't added 1920x1080p50 or 1920x1080p60 (or 48p) to the specs. So Blu-ray players, even when playing Blu-ray discs, still have to try to de-interlace content correctly (unless they convert any higher rate content to the lower 24p, but which would lower the quality).
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post #69 of 145 Old 06-29-2014, 01:23 PM
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Originally Posted by Joe Bloggs View Post
True, but we still have 1920x1080@50i and 60i on Blu-ray as well as 720x480i and 720x576i. They still haven't added 1920x1080p50 or 1920x1080p60 (or 48p) to the specs. So Blu-ray players, even when playing Blu-ray discs, still have to try to de-interlace content correctly (unless the convert any higher rate content to the lower 24p, but which would lower the quality).
Not the same. BD spec allows native store of progressive video which means the studios need to verify discs they authored in progressive output as well unlike DVD which they only need to verify that 480i output works fine.


As a result, de-interlacing BD video on a player is vastly simple and easy compare to DVDs. The specs are different. In order to win the format war, Sony/BD camp did the right thing to get rid of the entire interlaced video store on disc mess (like HD DVD still required) so that they can put out 1080p BD players out early and cheaper than HD DVD players which only support 1080i for most models unless you pay top dollars for the top end model.
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post #70 of 145 Old 06-29-2014, 01:35 PM
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I don't know the details of the streams, I didn't analyse them or anything technical . But on the forums/blogs etc. people were complaining to the BBC about it's HD channel(s) broadcasting in 1440x1080i instead of 1920x1080i and they thought they weren't getting the best picture.
Well, they wouldn't get the "best" picture, but 1440x1080i? I don't think they'd even see the loss.
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I think the BBC wanted to keep using a lower bitrate and were worried that increasing the resolution but keeping the low bitrate would give a worse picture, and were saying most of their cameras at the time were only capturing (or had an effective resolution no more than) 1440x1080 or were giving other reasons to not increase it.
Conceivably the BBC could have fitted its 4:3 aspect cameras with 1.333x anamorphic lenses to squeeze 1920 down to 1440, but I don't think I've ever seen or heard of a 1.333x anamorphic lens. 1.5x, yes. 2x, of course. But 1.333x, I don't think so. I'll bet the BBC masked the 1440x1080 to 1440x810, then up converted that to 1920x1080 HD for broadcast.

-- EDIT --
Also, HDMI doesn't have a 1440x1080 mode, so I don't think a receiver would know what to do with 1440x1080.
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post #71 of 145 Old 06-29-2014, 01:41 PM
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...At the end of the day, why bother. We have BD now. It is light years better than DVD.
Why? Because I have lots of DVDs that will never be released on Blu-ray.
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post #72 of 145 Old 06-29-2014, 01:43 PM
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Originally Posted by markfilipak View Post
Conceivably the BBC could have fitted its 4:3 aspect cameras with 1.333x anamorphic lenses to squeeze 1920 down to 1440, but I don't think I've ever seen or heard of a 1.333x anamorphic lens. 1.5x, yes. 2x, of course. But 1.333x, I don't think so. I'll bet the BBC masked the 1440x1080 to 1440x810, then up converted that to 1920x1080 HD for broadcast.

-- EDIT --
Also, HDMI doesn't have a 1440x1080 mode, so I don't think a receiver would know what to do with 1440x1080.
I think it would be formats like "HDCAM".
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HDCAM
"in 1080i-compatible down-sampled resolution of 1440×1080, and adding 24p and 23.976 progressive segmented frame (PsF) modes to later models. The HDCAM codec uses rectangular pixels and as such the recorded 1440×1080 content is upsampled to 1920×1080 on playback"

And I think things like their Panasonic Varicams (that they used for documentaries) also had no more than 1440x1080 effective resolution.

I think the HDMI not having a 1440x1080 mode wouldn't matter, since the digital TV decoders would be able to to decode the 1440x1080 video and then, if it was an external decoder box, output it as 1920x1080.
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post #73 of 145 Old 06-29-2014, 01:52 PM
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Originally Posted by Joe Bloggs View Post
I think it would be formats like "HDCAM".
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HDCAM
"in 1080i-compatible down-sampled resolution of 1440×1080, and adding 24p and 23.976 progressive segmented frame (PsF) modes to later models. The HDCAM codec uses rectangular pixels and as such the recorded 1440×1080 content is upsampled to 1920×1080 on playback"
Ummm... Clue me in, please, Joe. What does HDCAM have to do with digital television? I don't know.

Are you saying that the BBC broadcasted 1440x1080?

Thank you.
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post #74 of 145 Old 06-29-2014, 01:57 PM
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Ummm... Clue me in, please, Joe. What does HDCAM have to do with digital television? I don't know.

Are you saying that the BBC broadcasted 1440x1080?

Thank you.
The BBC ask that "All new programmes must deliver on HD CAM SR Stereo." in their HD commisioning guidelines.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/commissioning/t...sentials.shtml
It looks like HDCAM SR records 1920x1080 but HDCAM records 1440x1080 so I assume they accepted programmes on HDCAM (or used it themselves) tapes in the past.

Yes, the BBC broadcasted in 1440x1080
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BBC_HD
"The channel was broadcast at a display resolution of 1440 by 1080i, which despite being less than the usual 1920 by 1080 resolution used for HD broadcasts is still acceptable to the European Broadcasting Union (EBU) of which the BBC is a member".

edit: See this post:
BBC HD changing their resolution for delivery
Sneals2000 said that the BBC would be changing their HD delivery requirements in 2008 from HDCAM (which used 1440x1080) to HDCAM SR (which uses 1920x1080).
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post #75 of 145 Old 06-29-2014, 01:58 PM
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Why? Because I have lots of DVDs that will never be released on Blu-ray.
Then, you have to live with the limitations. Progressive output is a bonus but not required by DVD specs. As long as the disc outputs 480i without problem, it is correctly authored as far as movie studio's concern. You will not get studios to give you a free copy one way or another. It never happened before BD become main stream and certainly won't happen after.


Your best route will be play it back on a player that can handle this kind of authoring errors. A lot dedicated video processors, mid to high end AVRs and surprisingly Panasonic BD players can indeed properly de-interlace these discs without comb effect. Don't think any PC software or driver have this capability because most of those advanced algorithms are patented or proprietary.
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post #76 of 145 Old 06-29-2014, 02:05 PM
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Originally Posted by Joe Bloggs View Post
He's talking about "lines per picture height" or "TV lines per picture height" - how much can be resolved by a particular system. Though I think it was something more used for analogue formats not digital.
BTW, thanks to those who corrected my earlier post that pixels are square in HD formats - rectangular is not the full description. As far as I know, lines per picture height is still used in digital. Electronic test generators still use them. It makes sense that if one stretches the image that resolution will decrease. It actually makes more sense for square pixel formats. Also 1440x1080 formats (like HDCam) are internal implementations meant for 16:9 video. HD Net took delivery on that format. SR is a much improved format with 12 uncompressed audio channels.


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post #77 of 145 Old 06-29-2014, 02:33 PM
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Originally Posted by Stereodude View Post
It could be partially hard telecined mixed with soft telecined material. There could be true interlaced material in there or improperly converted film content. It's hard to say. You would need to decrypt the disc on your PC and analyze the movie if you really want to know what's going on.
Sometimes things would get messed up on standards conversions. Going from a 25fps transfer in a 576/50i format to 480/60i should use slow PAL with pulldown added, but sometimes places would treat it as interlaced video and the cadence was totally wrong. That was easy to check on tape, but with files I found I needed to convert fields to frames and then step through to check the 3:2. Also, I wonder if the Panasonic display in question has a film mode enabled to handle reverse telecine. If the DVD has incorrect pulldown, it might actually make things worse.


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post #78 of 145 Old 06-29-2014, 02:39 PM
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Then, you have to live with the limitations.
Duh!
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Originally Posted by Foxbat121 View Post
Progressive output is a bonus but not required by DVD specs. As long as the disc outputs 480i without problem, it is correctly authored as far as movie studio's concern.
But there are problems, not only for me, but for many other people. There are many people who have big troubles with that disc.

I don't understand why you are defending Sony Pictures.
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You will not get studios to give you a free copy one way or another. It never happened before BD become main stream and certainly won't happen after.
That's nonsense. Just last week I got a replacement disc from Warner Bros. for a disc that was defective in manufacture.
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Your best route will be play it back on a player that can handle this kind of authoring errors.
You must work for a studio. The suits must love you.
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post #79 of 145 Old 06-29-2014, 02:53 PM
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...Also, I wonder if the Panasonic display in question has a film mode enabled to handle reverse telecine. If the DVD has incorrect pulldown, it might actually make things worse.
The Panasonic Home Theater is so dummed down it's almost impossible to know how to set it up. Most of the setup items are vague and cryptic, most of the choices are "Best", "Medium", "Fast", "Off", and the "Help" is of the form "Adjust for best picture" or (I love this one) "The picture is sharp and detailed" for a control named "Detail Clarity" with a setting that goes from "-6" to "+6". No matter what you select, the text says "The picture is sharp and detailed". It's a joke.

Oh, and the users guide that came with the Home Theater doesn't say anything about how to set it up. It just repeats the on-screen texts.
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post #80 of 145 Old 06-29-2014, 03:09 PM
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Duh!

But there are problems, not only for me, but for many other people. There are many people who have big troubles with that disc.

I don't understand why you are defending Sony Pictures.

I'm not. I'm just being realistic. DVDs with this kind of problem is nothing new. We knew that for almost a decade or so before there was such thing called BD or even HDMI. You can go to DVD subforum here to read all about it. There are also those who devoted their entire life document and evaluate different DVD players for us (posted in DVD forum). If you have read any of their publications (quite old), you will understand what you encountered is not an isolated issue.

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That's nonsense. Just last week I got a replacement disc from Warner Bros. for a disc that was defective in manufacture.

That's entirely different thing than what we are discussing here. Authoring error which is still with spec are different than manufacture defects.
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You must work for a studio. The suits must love you.

Sorry, I'm merely try to help you. If you think otherwise, that will be my last response to you. Bye.

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post #81 of 145 Old 06-29-2014, 03:13 PM
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Authoring error which is still with spec are different than manufacture defects.
How do you know it is still "with" spec. Have you tested "Enigma", UPC 043396087347?

And if an authoring error isn't a manufacturing defect, what would you call it?
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post #82 of 145 Old 06-29-2014, 03:20 PM
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The Panasonic Home Theater is so dummed down it's almost impossible to know how to set it up. Most of the setup items are vague and cryptic, most of the choices are "Best", "Medium", "Fast", "Off", and the "Help" is of the form "Adjust for best picture" or (I love this one) "The picture is sharp and detailed" for a control named "Detail Clarity" with a setting that goes from "-6" to "+6". No matter what you select, the text says "The picture is sharp and detailed". It's a joke.

Oh, and the users guide that came with the Home Theater doesn't say anything about how to set it up. It just repeats the on-screen texts.
So the player and TV are all part of an all-in-one system? Do you have a model number(s)? Maybe there's online things that well give this info. On my Panasonic BD player, you have to press the "display" button on the player remote (then select "Picture" etc) while a disc is playing to change between "film mode"/"video mode" or "auto".
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post #83 of 145 Old 06-29-2014, 03:22 PM
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Hi Mike,
What's WMC?
WMC = Windows Media Center

I was hoping that since you used MPC-HC that your PC also used Windows. Windows Media Center.comes with Windows 7 and I think it came with Vista. It is an add-on in Windows 8.

I just tried it with a DVD & the one screen that displays video data shows the video codec, bit rate, frame corruption rate, corrupt frame count, native size, display size, & frame rate. I wasn't sure what it displayed, but it appears nothing about interlaced, pull-down, etc.
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post #84 of 145 Old 06-29-2014, 04:32 PM
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Originally Posted by markfilipak View Post
How do you know it is still "with" spec. Have you tested "Enigma", UPC 043396087347?

And if an authoring error isn't a manufacturing defect, what would you call it?
I would speculate that a manufacturing defect refers to the physical media itself. If it can faithfully reproduce the recorded information, then they may consider it not defective. Then it gets to what if it plays OK on some displays and not others. Who then is to blame? What if my Atari looked good on most NTSC TVs, but a few have problems locking because the subcarrier frequency is 11hz off instead of the NTSC 10hz spec (something that tended to drift on even professional sync gens). Is it defective? Even worse, software has no guarantee of working, and most have bugs. There's no guarantee of correct pulldown on DVDs, or for that matter most good practices. Even the video itself can be just terrible.

A common way that clients of facilities quality check supplied material is by sending it to a competing facility. They usually have no issues nitpicking other's work. For international work, Germany was the most difficult to deal with. I had material bounced that had a .5 unit of high frequency overshoot above 100%, something I had to expand a scope to even notice.

If there is a new version of the problem disc, perhaps the most expedient thing to do is just buy it. I know it doesn't seem fair, but hoping Sony will replace it because isn't optimal on all displays seems a long shot. They might ask why the disc wasn't returned when it was purchased. The new one may look much better too. Or maybe use the DVD to test other displays to see how they look. That disc may be worth more as a test device.


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post #85 of 145 Old 06-29-2014, 05:08 PM
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So the player and TV are all part of an all-in-one system?
No. The Home Theater is Panasonic SCBTT490 and the TV is Vizio E241-A1.
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Do you have a model number(s)? Maybe there's online things that well give this info. On my Panasonic BD player, you have to press the "display" button on the player remote (then select "Picture" etc) while a disc is playing to change between "film mode"/"video mode" or "auto".
There is no "Display" button. I hit "HOME" to bring up the device menu (as opposed to the DVD/BD menu). Here is just the Video Setup part of the menu system:
Code:
Picture Mode
  \__ Normal
  \__ Soft
  \__ Fine
  \__ Cinema
  \__ Animation
  \__ User <<<
Picture Adjustment
  \__ Contrast [-7...0...+7] <<< 0
  \__ Brightness [0...+15] <<< 0
  \__ Sharpness [-6...0...+6] <<< 0
  \__ Color [-7...0...+7] <<< 0
  \__ Gamma [0...+5] <<< 0
  \__ 3D NR [0...+4] <<< 0
  \__ Integrated NR [0...+3] <<< +3
Chroma Process
  \__ Off
  \__ Normal
  \__ Advanced <<<
Detail Clarity [-6...0...+6] <<< -5
Super Resolution [0 1 2] <<< 0
HDMI Output
  \__ HDMI Resolution
        \__ Auto
        \__ 480p
        \__ 720p
        \__ 1080i
        \__ 1080p <<<
  \__ 24p Output <<< Off (cannot select)
  \__ HDMI Color Mode
        \__ YCbCr (4:4:4) <<<
        \__ YCbCr (2:2:2)
        \__ RGB (Standard)
        \__ RGB (Enhanced)
  \__ Deep Color Output
        \__ Auto <<<
        \__ Off
  \__ Contents Type Flag
        \__ Auto <<<
        \__ Off
  \__ HDMI Standby Pass-Through
        \__ Yes
        \__ No <<<
Still Mode (paused vidso)
  \__ Auto
  \__ Field
  \__ Frame <<<
Seamless Play
  \__ On <<<
  \__ Off
Black Level Control
  \__ Lighter
  \__ Darker <<<
My current setting are indicated by <<<

Last edited by markfilipak; 06-29-2014 at 05:13 PM.
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post #86 of 145 Old 06-29-2014, 05:23 PM
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In the player manual http://service.us.panasonic.com/OPERMANPDF/SCBTT490.PDF on page 33
it says
"Progressive
Select the method of conversion for progressive
output to suit the type of material being played.

When the content is distorted change the settings from "Auto" to "Video"

I don't know whether changing that setting would help for this disc or not. If it's only between "auto" and "video" I would have expected auto would have been best. But if there's a progressive "on" or there's an option to set to "Film" maybe that could be tried. Though it does say if content is distorted to change it to "video" (though I wonder if you'd loose if you might lose resolution doing that?).

Or does that option not display on your player?

Last edited by Joe Bloggs; 06-29-2014 at 05:30 PM.
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post #87 of 145 Old 06-29-2014, 05:53 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Joe Bloggs View Post
In the player manual http://service.us.panasonic.com/OPERMANPDF/SCBTT490.PDF on page 33
it says
"Progressive
Select the method of conversion for progressive
output to suit the type of material being played.

When the content is distorted change the settings from "Auto" to "Video"
Unfortunately, there's no such menu item in the actual unit.
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post #88 of 145 Old 06-29-2014, 06:02 PM
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I have the Panasonic SCBTT490 set to the softest picture I can get in order to view "Enigma". Well, I could set Detail Clarity to -6, but -5 is sufficient. The sharpest Blu-ray I have is probably "2001: A Space Odyssey". It still looks gorgeous, very sharp.

With the default setup, "Engima" not only has combing, but is also has pretty severe micro-blocking.
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post #89 of 145 Old 06-29-2014, 06:27 PM
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I don't get why that option isn't being displayed. I assume you're checking for the option when a disc is in playback mode ? Or if it's because of some user-mode selected and that option only shows under certain conditions? Maybe it's something to do with the TV? Though that TV does say it can accept 1080i and 1080p (even if not at 24Hz) - or the connection - I assume you're using HDMI. Or maybe it's only on the player for a different region?

I wonder if it's worth contacting (eg. email or online) Panasonic support about it to find out why that option isn't displayed/how to get it to?

Last edited by Joe Bloggs; 06-29-2014 at 06:32 PM.
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post #90 of 145 Old 06-29-2014, 06:37 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike99 View Post
WMC = Windows Media Center

I was hoping that since you used MPC-HC that your PC also used Windows. Windows Media Center.comes with Windows 7 and I think it came with Vista. It is an add-on in Windows 8.

I just tried it with a DVD & the one screen that displays video data shows the video codec, bit rate, frame corruption rate, corrupt frame count, native size, display size, & frame rate. I wasn't sure what it displayed, but it appears nothing about interlaced, pull-down, etc.
I found WMC on my Win7-64 laptop. I put "Enigma" into the BD drive and ran WMC. I have no controls or status as you describe. There's no menu. There's no real context menu. If I right-click, what comes up is the most primitive functions imaginable. Certainly there's no disc status with bit rates and frame rate, etc. My Win7 is Home Premium 64 Bit.
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