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post #91 of 179 Old 04-22-2009, 08:38 AM
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Originally Posted by brentsg View Post

Again.... the ability to completely blank the panel to achieve that reading is useless since it cannot do this while displaying any content.

I am always amazed at how many people try to pass off blank panel measurement as being a meaningful comparison.

If that gimmick is what floats their boats, then they can have it on a far less expensive Panasonic NeoPDP "infinite black level panel" plasma. Off course neither the NeoPDP or the BLU LCD units can provide any such black level performances when displaying content.

If would be nice if people stopped with all those partisan distortions. What the hell is their purpose for doing that?

LCD and Plasma are just flat boxes of electronic bits and pieces. They are not favorite sports teams.

Some of the LCD versus Plasma threads would provide a great script for a remake of Sharks versus Jets, in Westside Story.

This time they could be called the Plasmaniacs and the LCDemons.
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post #92 of 179 Old 04-22-2009, 08:41 AM
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Originally Posted by greenland View Post

I am always amazed at how many people try to pass off blank panel measurement as being a meaningful comparison.

If that gimmick is what floats their boats, then they can have it on a far less expensive Panasonic NeoPDP "infinite black level panel" plasma. Off course neither the NeoPDP or the BLU LCD units can provide any such black level performances when displaying content.

The worst part is that review bit on it and published the 0.0 number. Of course they did turn around and test "movie mode" where I would guess the backlight didn't dynamically dim... and they got a much higher number.

Edit: if they bothered to publish that then I'd consider their reviews dubious at best...
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post #93 of 179 Old 04-22-2009, 08:58 AM
 
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Looks like we have another Hatfield and McCoy saga going on in yet another thread as these plasma/ lcd battles have gone beyond ridiculous.
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post #94 of 179 Old 04-22-2009, 09:05 AM
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Originally Posted by brentsg View Post

The worst part is that review bit on it and published the 0.0 number. Of course they did turn around and test "movie mode" where I would guess the backlight didn't dynamically dim... and they got a much higher number.

Edit: if they bothered to publish that then I'd consider their reviews dubious at best...

well thats test it using a test card if a plasma like neo PDP can show blacks levels of 0.03 lcds like samsung conventional backlight B650 show a black level of 0.04 in the same test after caliberation.
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post #95 of 179 Old 04-22-2009, 09:08 AM
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so are u saying all those reviews out there are wrong ,they have faulty instruments which shows 0.0 cd/m2 of blackness.

No, they measured the black level of a screen that was off. It is interesting, but not surprising, that reviewers and many smart AVS members still do not understand the dynamic nature of the black level on local dimming sets. The black level is both spatially and temporally floating/shifting.

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what makes u say that they will NEVER match a plasma,lcds with LED have just started.and black levels of conventional backlight LCD already are as good as plasmas may not be as good as pioneer kuro,but they are getting there.

AFAIK there is no LCD technology (research or market) that can block 100% of the backlight. OLED and PDP are both technically capable of turning selected pixels 100% off during display of content.

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As soon as reflections hit PDP surface, 0 blacks are gone.

True, but what is the range of ambient light level that this effect becomes an issue to our perception? See the second half of this POST for my personal perception. I want the floating in space feel on low APL scenes with bright content. Amazing experience IMO.

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A diffuser that is used to minimize crosstalk between zones. It was mentioned in LG presentation slides.

I've read similar papers on this topic (not LG) and it seems flawed IMO. The edge of the halo will become much too sharp and much more noticeable. Global diffuser is here to stay I'm afraid. This technology may surprise me though.

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Plus you have to deal with phosphor decay etc issues, so even in a perfect room you should have some glow in the pic after displaying pics for a while.

Phosphorescence intensity greatly depends on emission time and intensity and is quickly transient. When displaying video or film the intensity is nearly invisible in a totally dark room on an off screen. To get strong phosphorescence you need to display a static image at high intensity for several minutes.

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Afterimages that will kill ansi and on/off contrast.

Irresponsibly poor assumption. Phosphorescence is and will be inconsequential to any contrast measurement (especially ANSI) and inconsequential to our perception of black unless we display a static image for great lengths of time and quickly switch to a black screen.

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post #96 of 179 Old 04-22-2009, 09:20 AM
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Originally Posted by aim120 View Post

well thats test it using a test card if a plasma like neo PDP can show blacks levels of 0.03 lcds like samsung conventional backlight B650 show a black level of 0.04 in the same test after caliberation.

I don't understand this sentence.
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post #97 of 179 Old 04-22-2009, 09:49 AM
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Originally Posted by xrox View Post

To get strong phosphorescence you need to display a static image at high intensity for several minutes.

High intensity outdoor scene followed by a night scene. The artifact should be visible. I think OLED won't suffer from this.
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post #98 of 179 Old 04-22-2009, 10:02 AM
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Originally Posted by sharpbandaid View Post

High intensity outdoor scene followed by a night scene. The artifact should be visible. I think OLED won't suffer from this.

On a zero black plasma it may well cause a visual artifact under very specific circumstances but I hope you understand that phosphorescence luminance is a fraction of current Kuro black levels. In the specific case you mention the effect will still be unnoticeable IMO as the bright scene is still not static enough.

To be noticeable there needs to be a sharp visual boundary created with static images only and long emission times. I actually tested this last night inadvertently. Paused my plasma to put the kids to bed and it took much longer than expected (~20min). When I got back I just turned the plasma off and the phosphorescence was very strong and distinct. Even so it was still a fraction of the operating black level.

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post #99 of 179 Old 04-22-2009, 11:56 AM
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The Pioneer Kuros only have a good black level in a very dark room.

Completely wrong.

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I don't like the noisy and dim plasma image, that you get especially from Pioneer.

A perfectly calibrated 55ftL is dim?

And there is no noisy image at my viewing distance of ~7' at all. It's perfectly crystal-clear unless there is noise in the source.
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post #100 of 179 Old 04-22-2009, 12:05 PM
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Originally Posted by tbird8450 View Post

And there is no noisy image at my viewing distance of ~7' at all. It's perfectly crystal-clear unless there is noise in the source.

The dithering noise is first thing that I notice with Kuros from my viewing distance. Panasonic is much better in this regard.

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A perfectly calibrated 55ftL is dim?

I thought Kuros can do ~20ftL full screen white? 20ftL is dim.
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post #101 of 179 Old 04-22-2009, 12:18 PM
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Originally Posted by HiFiFun View Post

A good post but you are a plasma fanboy. Why? Because the above statement is simply not true.
A major traditional LCD's weakness is a milky black level in a dark room.
With my local dimming 950, I never see any washed out grey - ever. So the local dimming method does indeed work.
The Pioneer Kuros only have a good black level in a very dark room. Otherwise you see the screen itself, which is far from black.

If you want super high rez, true wide angle viewing and expanded color gaument then this (Eye-One calibrated) monitor is just the ticket:
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...%28keywords%29

To be fair, no one has ever spoke of the Samsung 950 not being able to display cherry-red (even after calibration). The LG shows how lacking it is in this area.

Let me first state that I am not a plasma fanboy. I was a staunch supporter of Samsung basically since I got into flat panel tvs. I've owned tons of their lcds, my favorite, and most recent, being the 81F. Now, I have seen the 950 and compared it to my older model. Yes, they have made improvements but the difference between local dimmed lcd and Pioneer Kuro is still too apparent in a dark room to not warrant mentioning.

I think you might want to retract the statement that you've never seen a washed out grey on your 950. Perhaps that depends on your definition of "washed out", but for the purposes of this discussion, I will assume that washed out means anything that is not as black as the deepest black level that your 950 can produce. If you've researched the tech at all, you probably know that there is no local dimmed set on the market that can completely eliminate the effects of blooming/floating blacks. There are limitations of the technology, specifically, that when there is a dark scene being rendered with little light, when the luminance is above complete or nearly complete black, then even quality sets like the 950 are exposed.

In this case, the tv is only able to produce blacks that are no longer of Kuro quality and certainly don't match the .000ftL reading that is delivered on a blank screen.

I will say it again and hope that it sinks in for some people. There is NO replacement for REAL contrast and excellent black levels in REAL program material. The kuro produces an image that has more depth and three dimensionality (not a word I guess but who cares) in these shots because it's not using what I think is sorta like "cheating". LED local dimming can look spectacular, but there are always instances in which I was reminded that it was inconsistent, and in my mind, a little fake.

Also, it is incorrect to say that kuros only have good black level in a dark room. Unless the light in the room is blinding (Best Buy showroom levels), kuros maintain their excellent black levels. In fact, with a small amount of proper ambient lighting, the blacks can lose their "glow' that is characteristic of even the best displays and appear completely black.
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post #102 of 179 Old 04-22-2009, 12:27 PM
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The dithering noise is first thing that I notice with Kuros from my viewing distance. Panasonic is much better in this regard.

And how were these Kuros set up? Was the sharpness too high? Was Powersave engaged? There are settings that can and will create additional noise/artifacts. When properly adjusted, there should be no discernable noise from a "reasonable" viewing distance unless it's in the source.

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I thought Kuros can do ~20ftL full screen white? 20ftL is dim.

I don't know of any plasmas that can output more than 20ftL on a full screen white due to the ABL. But how often do you watch a full white field when the TV's on? The Elites can achieve ~55ftL from a 100 IRE window without clipping, which is about as high as any properly calibrated plasma has measured that I've ever seen.
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post #103 of 179 Old 04-22-2009, 12:31 PM
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Originally Posted by tbird8450 View Post

I don't know of any plasmas that can output more than 20ftL on a full screen white due to the ABL. But how often do you watch a full white field when the TV's on? The Elites can achieve ~55ftL from a 100 IRE window without clipping, which is about as high as any properly calibrated plasma has measured that I've ever seen.

Calibrated Panasonic TH-65VX100E does 74ftL window and 34ftL full screen. That's more like it.
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post #104 of 179 Old 04-22-2009, 12:36 PM
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Source?
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post #105 of 179 Old 04-22-2009, 12:41 PM
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Originally Posted by tbird8450 View Post

Source?

That's the most annoing word on internet forums. Here's link:

VX100 and Kuro for comparison.
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post #106 of 179 Old 04-22-2009, 12:47 PM
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That's the only plasma I've ever seen that can achieve that high on a full field white. "Robust power supply," indeed. Too bad its black level readings are not terribly impressive.
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post #107 of 179 Old 04-22-2009, 01:33 PM
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Originally Posted by ll Viper ll View Post

-snip-
To claim that LED based LCDs have better black levels than plasmas is completely misrepresenting the technologies. I must question any opinion given after this because of its unqualified and obvious incorrectness. Having owned the best of both technologies, it is apparent to the discerning viewer that LEDs, and local dimming in particular, is a stop gap measure to improve upon LCD weaknesses that have already been addressed with plasma. Yes, local dimmed LED sets like the 950 from Samsung and the XBR8 from Sony CAN produce a .000 ftL reading, resulting in a completely black screen. Problem is, this ability means little in real world application. In mixed material, or in scenes lacking in light but not completely black, the local dimming is insufficient and LCD technology's weaknesses exposed.

You used the term "real world application", and then quoted black level figures that can ONLY be acheived in a totally blacked out room where even the test instrumentation is swathed in a special light-absorbing fabric called Duvetyne. This is an important point, so follow allong: In the last two years, both LCDs and plasmas have acheived spectacularly low black level readings. YES plasma is still lower but in the real world the dominant source of light coming off both types of screens is reflected. Whether the reflected light forms a distracting image or simply raises the apparent black level of the screen is a function of how much light from what sources, plus the screen finish (the rougher the surface, the more diffusion and the less reflection).

Sad to say for plasma fans, even in the total darkness of a Home Theater environment, the light from the panel itself, reflected first off room furnishings and then off the screen, is at least two orders of magnitude (more than 100X) greater than the typical on-screen black level. That's why Duvetyne gets used when measuring those testlab-only specs, which are meaningfull only in the spec war driving Web sales. That's why in the real world, the "advantage" that a plasma has with black levels - which as late as two years ago was a meaningfull discussion, doesn't mean much anymore. It never was kosher to compare a $5000 Pioneer Elite to sets costing half as much, and I know I have seen lots of plasmas which visibly had inferior black levels to LCDs in the same store. It's possible some were defective, its probable most were uncalibrated - but it's certain there are cheap plasma panels that niether of us would ever want.

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Originally Posted by ll Viper ll View Post

-snip- (the local dimming discussion)

After spending extensive amounts of time comparing local dimmed sets to top plasmas with the most demanding material, I simply can't believe that you either are ignorant of these performance inconsistencies or are intentionally misleading people. There really is no contest.

LEDs, and more importantly, local dimming, is trying to compensate for shortcomings that are characteristic of the tech.

No of course I have not spent an "extensive" amount of time comparing these units side-by-side. I don't think anybody else around here has either. We have three B&M stores remaining afyter the demise of the Good Guys and Circuit City, those are Best Buy (containing Magnolia), Frys Electronics, and Andersens. The first two sell both Panasonic and Samsung but I have NEVER seen a side-by-side comparison in either. What time I have observing these set types is pretty much with different sources and in different ambient lighting. For my tastes, the LCDs offer superior images because the plasmas have the strobing look of film that has bothered me ever since I saw my first film in a theater in 1960. The problem that 120Hz offers the first blessed respite from.


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As for the other stuff, viewing angles, motion, color saturation, I believe that the majority of the more educated members here on AVS, and the professional AV community in general, would agree that plasmas dominate almost all these areas.

I would say that you are dead wrong here. That certainly WAS true in the past - but what I see that is typical NOW is that plasma maintains a huge following here at AVS, but when you go to the magazines and webzines and confine your reading to 2009 articles, you will find that most test report sources are using terminology such as "negligible quality differences" and so forth.

Maybe there is some aspect of plasma that appeals to you. However I see within it the same weaknesses and the same image constraints I see with 35mm film. For me there can never again be a quality display that refreshes at 60Hz, and I reached that conclusion in 2003 when I got my present digital front projector and developed the macro files to switch it between 72Hz and 60Hz to match the source material. That was after I finally found decent reverse telecine software, of course.


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-snip- (the local dimming discussion)
When you say that color saturation can produce a problem in color accuracy for plasmas, unless that plasma is an "uber expensive Pioneer", I just couldn't really take that seriously. When you're asserting that lcds have met or surpassed plasma in many regards, yet the only LCDs that have supposedly been able to do this are MORE expensive than equivilent "uber expensive Pioneers", any statement following can't hold much weight for me. Panasonics, which perform better anyway, are much less expensive than local dimmed sets from Samsung and Sony just for your information.

What I meant by that was there was a single model of a single brand (Pioneer Elite) which was tweeked at the factory better than almost any other plasma or LCD on th market, with little remaining video improvement from a full ISF calibration - just the normal white level setting that matches the display to the ambient lighting. Now I understand that Panasonic has a THX-certified display earning even better kudoes than the lesser Pioneers. I have even briefly seen it - but it did NOT offer a usable display of a 24Hz source at 48Hz, it flickered pretty bad.

-snip- (the rest of your message)

I need to communicate to you that having owned and lived with a 120Hz Samsung for 16 months now, and having literally introduced several dozen people to HD viewing on it, that 120Hz and Frame Interpolation are major market features now. It remains true that here is AVS there is a group ready to run screaming from the room saying words to the effect "OMG, it doesn't look like film!". I understand that, even if my opinion is the difference from the look of film is the whole reason I bought this set, because it provided blessed relief from acute quality problems inherent in the way we displayed film source on CRT, plasma, and LCD screens.

I really wish that there were plasmas that offered higher refresh rates like 120Hz. I might be able to give them a bit more cred as serious video displays if that was the case, instead of being unable to overcome the perception of the inherent flaws when I watch them.

Now for the market forces at work. Pioneer is out of the plasma business, and there are a scant few sets left in distribution. The largest volume retailer of plasmas (Vizio) is also getting out of the plasma business. I am sure that this plasma technology will maintain it's popularity, but it's not gaining market share or volume sales anytime soon.

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post #108 of 179 Old 04-22-2009, 01:41 PM
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That's why Duvetyne gets used when measuring those testlab-only specs, which are meaningfull only in the spec war driving Web sales.

Those who have used light meters in their own meager livingrooms have measured .001 black levels from Pioneer displays. I'm going to go out on a limb and say that their walls are not lined with Duvetyne.

Quote:


What I meant by that was there was a single model of a single brand (Pioneer Elite) which was tweeked at the factory better than almost any other plasma or LCD on th market, with little remaining video improvement from a full ISF calibration - just the normal white level setting that matches the display to the ambient lighting.

This is simply incorrect. There are many aspects of the display that require adjustment to bring it inline with Rec. 709.
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post #109 of 179 Old 04-22-2009, 02:31 PM
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Originally Posted by xrox View Post

No, they measured the black level of a screen that was off. It is interesting, but not surprising, that reviewers and many smart AVS members still do not understand the dynamic nature of the black level on local dimming sets. The black level is both spatially and temporally floating/shifting.

well like i said before they use a test card such that the image has both blacks and white and i am taking about the ANSI contrast,both plasma and lcds were tested the same way.

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AFAIK there is no LCD technology (research or market) that can block 100% of the backlight. OLED and PDP are both technically capable of turning selected pixels 100% off during display of content.

well is there a rule that says a display pixel should turn 100% OFF or ON,first of all lcd tech is different from plasma and other tech,it needs a backlight to show us those images,now because of that it can adapt and use the backlight more creatively which i am sure plasma fans dont like because that few edges that plasma had is dimminished.well the fact is LED backlight lcds will be the norm.





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Originally Posted by brentsg View Post

I don't understand this sentence.

well what i meant was given the same test conditions with a image that has both blacks and whites in same image,lcds such as samsung B650 which has a normal CCFL backlight shows a black level of 0.04 cd/m2 and NEO PDP plasmas from panasonic like G10 shows a black level of 0.03 cd/m2
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post #110 of 179 Old 04-22-2009, 02:39 PM
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Originally Posted by sharpbandaid View Post

I don't like the noisy and dim plasma image, that you get especially from Pioneer. I prefer my Blu-rays crystal clear, like director intended.

I can't help but wonder how much of the "noise" that people complain about is actually just film grain? Something that the aforementioned director most likely intended to be there all along, even going so far as to add it to digitally shot sequences/VFX scenes.
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post #111 of 179 Old 04-22-2009, 02:53 PM
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Originally Posted by st0nedpenguin View Post

I can't help but wonder how much of the "noise" that people complain about is actually just film grain? Something that the aforementioned director most likely intended to be there all along, even going so far as to add it to digitally shot sequences/VFX scenes.

Press pause button on BD-remote, if you can't compare side by side.
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post #112 of 179 Old 04-22-2009, 03:23 PM
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Originally Posted by st0nedpenguin View Post

I can't help but wonder how much of the "noise" that people complain about is actually just film grain? Something that the aforementioned director most likely intended to be there all along, even going so far as to add it to digitally shot sequences/VFX scenes.

That's certainly part of it. Another problem is multiple resolution scalings. A Blu-Ray will have at least one scaling when the Digital Cinema 2K resolution is scaled to approximately 1920X810 (for 2.35:1 ARs) or 1920X1080 for the 16:9 ARs. But if Digital SFX were used, there might be two more resolution scalings. Then if the display is 720p, the Blu-Ray output itself gets scaled in the HDTV.

These resolution scalings each generate a certain amount of scaling artifacts. It amuses me how many times I see a Blu-Ray criticised for "excessive edge enhancement" when in fact I do not know of a single case where EE was actually used on HD media (although it was common on conventional DVDs at one time). The scaling artifacts do greatly resemble EE especially on high-contrast areas where halos can be seen, but if you know what to look for, you can see the difference.

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post #113 of 179 Old 04-22-2009, 03:51 PM
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Originally Posted by sharpbandaid View Post

I don't like the noisy and dim plasma image, that you get especially from Pioneer. I prefer my Blu-rays crystal clear, like director intended.

noisy and dim?
You obviously don't speak from experience.
Keep listen to the geek squad guys if you like, whatever makes you happy.
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post #114 of 179 Old 04-22-2009, 05:49 PM
 
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Originally Posted by ll Viper ll View Post

Now, I have seen the 950 and compared it to my older model. Yes, they have made improvements but the difference between local dimmed lcd and Pioneer Kuro is still too apparent in a dark room to not warrant mentioning.

I think you might want to retract the statement that you've never seen a washed out grey on your 950. Perhaps that depends on your definition of "washed out", but for the purposes of this discussion.

The 950 must be calibrated so that the LED's turn completely off when fed a 0-2 IRE level signal. Cnet and Home Theater were clueless when they tested defective displays (or were lazy truth-be-known).

Here is from the British mag Home Cinema Choice:
After calibration
Colour temperature: 6,498K (user)
RGB: 100/100/100 Luminance: 79.19fL
Contrast ratio: 220,742:1

Note too the European Models are missing some important performance features we enjoy in the USA.
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post #115 of 179 Old 04-22-2009, 06:21 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HiFiFun View Post

The 950 must be calibrated so that the LED's turn completely off when fed a 0-2 IRE level signal. Cnet and Home Theater were clueless when they tested defective displays (or were lazy truth-be-known).

Here is from the British mag Home Cinema Choice:
After calibration
Colour temperature: 6,498K (user)
RGB: 100/100/100 Luminance: 79.19fL
Contrast ratio: 220,742:1

Note too the European Models are missing some important performance features we enjoy in the USA.

You must have misunderstood what I was saying. I am not doubting that the 950 could, and should, produce a completely black screen with a signal of that level. In fact, my old 81F would fade completely to black when this was the case. Nor am I saying that Cnet or Home Theater are bullet proof, faultless organizations. What I am talking about are grayish blacks that only appear in certain scenes. When comparing my old 81F to the Kuro, I found that it did not maintain those deep of blacks at all times. In particular scenes, it would revert to the grayish haze look typical of lcds. Mind you, not nearly as bad as most, but still not consistently of the same quality of the Kuro.

Also, if you would, please provide further evidence from US publications. I know that the numbers may be solid, but if they don't have the exact same models, it's a little less useful.

Any contrast numbers that they would have obtained measuring the black level at absolute zero, or even .001ftL, are meaningless. This is because all local dimmed LED models cannot achieve that depth of black in NORMAL material. It is not representative of the viewing experience, at least in the most demanding scenes. These numbers would be inflated in an lcd's favor anyway. If you're measuring with .001ftL as the black and nearly a whopping 80ftL as the white output, of course that's going to yield a ridiculous number.

That statistic really is meaningless though. In terms of actual, measured contrast that is applicable to ANY material being shown, the Kuro is superior. No gray blacks to be found, ever (unless it's in the source of course).
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post #116 of 179 Old 04-22-2009, 07:05 PM
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Originally Posted by aim120 View Post

well like i said before they use a test card such that the image has both blacks and white and i am taking about the ANSI contrast,both plasma and lcds were tested the same way.

Well, I've been trying to tell you that it is impossible. And I get this information directly from Samsung technical papers discussing local dimming LCD. Now if you want to believe this review you are basing your argument on and ignore the science then go right ahead. I will stick with the actual scientific facts

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Originally Posted by aim120 View Post

well is there a rule that says a display pixel should turn 100% OFF or ON

It is the ideal mode of operation of a display. Whether or not you need it is a subjective question. Personally I thought that zero black was unnecessary until I purchased my plasma and realized I really do want zero black and will be purchasing an OLED or ECC plasma when they are available. Low APL material in a dark or dim room really needs it IMO.

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Originally Posted by aim120 View Post

,first of all lcd tech is different from plasma and other tech it needs a backlight to show us those images

The backlight - LC light valve system that LCD uses is the source of inherent light leakage I was speaking of. It is also the source of many other LCD issues that seem fundamentally inherent (Viewing angle, mura.etc).

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Originally Posted by aim120 View Post

now because of that it can adapt and use the backlight more creatively which i am sure plasma fans dont like because that few edges that plasma had is dimminished.well the fact is LED backlight lcds will be the norm.

I hope and doubt that is not the case. I would suspect that plasma fans don't like it because it combines temporally floating blacks with cross-talk, black crush, and spatially moving halos in addition to black level rise with increasing viewing angle. If they can implement some sort of compensation for these issues then I'm sure PDP consumers will look differently upon the tech. Tough to get around the light-valve issues though.

Over thinking, over analyzing separates the body from the mind
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post #117 of 179 Old 04-22-2009, 07:31 PM
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Originally Posted by sharpbandaid View Post

I don't like the noisy and dim plasma image, that you get especially from Pioneer. I prefer my Blu-rays crystal clear, like director intended.

LOL what a load of bull.

Tons of directors use intentional grain in their films. Do you know anything about movies?
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post #118 of 179 Old 04-22-2009, 08:32 PM
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I actually wouldn't be surprised if CA banned plasmas going forward if they don't meet their energy consumption requirements. The CA government rules my life and spends my money foolishly. But hey they're trying to keep the world in good shape for future generations who will suffer from mass food shortages and fresh water shortages and for the U.S., horrific economic conditions if it still exists.
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post #119 of 179 Old 04-23-2009, 01:18 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by xrox View Post

Well, I've been trying to tell you that it is impossible. And I get this information directly from Samsung technical papers discussing local dimming LCD. Now if you want to believe this review you are basing your argument on and ignore the science then go right ahead. I will stick with the actual scientific facts

well u must understand that even without local dimming ,lcds are as good as todays plasma except may be the kuro in terms of black level and i have not seen any reviews out there that supports ur claim.secondly i still don't understand what u are trying to prove exactly i am not convinced.

Quote:
It is the ideal mode of operation of a display. Whether or not you need it is a subjective question. Personally I thought that zero black was unnecessary until I purchased my plasma and realized I really do want zero black and will be purchasing an OLED or ECC plasma when they are available. Low APL material in a dark or dim room really needs it IMO.
The backlight - LC light valve system that LCD uses is the source of inherent light leakage I was speaking of. It is also the source of many other LCD issues that seem fundamentally inherent (Viewing angle, mura.etc).

well once again u must understand lcds work differently,they need a backlight, sure lcds are not good at extreme off axis viewing compared to plasma and sure deep blacks are good for dim rooms,but nobody says there is only one method to get the job done.

Quote:
I hope and doubt that is not the case. I would suspect that plasma fans don't like it because it combines temporally floating blacks with cross-talk, black crush, and spatially moving halos in addition to black level rise with increasing viewing angle. If they can implement some sort of compensation for these issues then I'm sure PDP consumers will look differently upon the tech. Tough to get around the light-valve issues though.

well thats ur view, but the majority out there share a different view and i am one of them led are the future of backlight for lcds,better efficiency,thickness reduced,even backlight this is just the start and the fact that u say " I hope and doubt that is not the case" proves u are a plasma fan boy who just can't accept a competing tech taking the lead in all fronts.
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post #120 of 179 Old 04-23-2009, 03:56 AM
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Originally Posted by StinDaWg View Post

LOL what a load of bull.

Tons of directors use intentional grain in their films. Do you know anything about movies?

Have you seen Ratatouille on Blu-ray? This movie would be one of the prime examples to demonstrate how noisy Kuro really is.
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