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post #1 of 179 Old 04-20-2009, 05:30 AM - Thread Starter
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I can't decide as topic stated above. I saw LED and it's absolutely beautiful, I heard it's like an LCD with viewing angles and it has true blacks but I can't find more information about the LED pics.

Can someone help me on the positives and negatives on each tv type? I know most about Plasma but can Plasma compete with LED? I'm in a bind here, do I spend 3,000 on a 50 inch LED or just go ahead and buy 2x Panasonic Plasmas (50 inch) (Living Room and Game Room. In all honestly, I'm not truly looking for the best bang for the buck, I'm looking for something that is truly awesome. I know Plasma had the best picture over LCD with true blacks, rich colors and what not.

What would you do? Keep a 50 inch DLP for the Bedroom and buy a 50 inch LED for the Living Room. Or, would you buy 2 50 inch plasmas, (Panasonic Viera) 1080p 600hz with 40,000:1 Contrast (true).

Please don't hate for asking, this is something I'm very new to
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post #2 of 179 Old 04-20-2009, 05:40 AM
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Led has done wonders for the genre. Black levels and color are more true with the tech. But it still suffers from motion problems and poor viewing angle. Plasma is still the best for the buck between the two. Especially if you can get two of them. If i was looking to spend 3k, id go with the pio 111.
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post #3 of 179 Old 04-20-2009, 06:13 AM
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Well, I've got one of the Samsung LEDs, the 40B6000. It has the wow factor you are looking for, mine does. But it also is very hard on my eyes, which I think has more to do with the 120hz and the brightness that this set can achieve. And I do have the brightness and other settings turned down, the set is not in torch mode.

I also just picked up a new 2009 Samsung 58" B560 600hz plasma. The pq of both sets are in the same ball park, the LED has that 3D pop/wow effect you are looking for. But, and a big BUT... Myself, I find all of that wow effect very hard on my eyes, fatiguing and actually depending on the source, can really turn my stomach in a physical way. It actually makes me sick!

Now my new plasma has a more natural look and feel to it, very easy to watch without hurting the eyes. The plasma also has a slight 3D effect which I do like, it is much more natural looking. As are the blacks and detail, which are fantastic on the plasma. The LED also plays nice with the blacks and shadows, but the plasma still wins in this category and it is not fatiguing to watch.

Myself, I much prefer to watch the plasma, and or my 60hz Sony 46" KDLV3000, for any extended viewing time. Don't get me wrong, the LED is a beautiful set with a fantastic picture, it will stay in my bedroom where it works fantastic due to its thin chassis, which I needed to be able to wall mount it in a traffic area. If I would not have needed that thin of a set, I would have much preferred a plasma. And I could have gotten one heck of a plasma for the money I threw down on the LED.

I don't know if any of the above will help, or just confuse. But I would find a showroom that has a nice dark viewing room with some high quality sources hooked up and compare with your own eyes. Would I buy this LED again, yes, just because of its thin chassis. Would I use it as my main set, no.

Mike

On edit, I would go with the 2 Pannies.
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post #4 of 179 Old 04-20-2009, 06:33 AM - Thread Starter
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Thanks local.
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post #5 of 179 Old 04-20-2009, 07:36 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MojoDrew32 View Post

...I saw LED and it's absolutely beautiful, I heard it's like an LCD with viewing angles and it has true blacks but I can't find more information about the LED pics.

The "LED" sets are simply LCD with light emitting diode backlights instead of the typical flourescent backlight. It is an LCD. The name change to just "LED" is simply Samsung marketing. These work exactly the same way as other LCDs, just a different backlighting method. The primary benefits appear to be lower power consumption, thinner profile, and a price premium (as you've discovered)

Check out CNet.com for some recent reviews of Sony and Samsung LED LCD and the new Panasonic plasmas.

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post #6 of 179 Old 04-20-2009, 08:02 AM
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Originally Posted by greenjp View Post

The "LED" sets are simply LCD with light emitting diode backlights instead of the typical flourescent backlight. It is an LCD. The name change to just "LED" is simply Samsung marketing. These work exactly the same way as other LCDs, just a different backlighting method. The primary benefits appear to be lower power consumption, thinner profile, and a price premium (as you've discovered)

Check out CNet.com for some recent reviews of Sony and Samsung LED LCD and the new Panasonic plasmas.

jeff

That is true, and the LED back lighting does make a noticeable difference. The LED sets can be extremely bright, torch mode does not convey how bright these sets can get, at least to me. Myself, I think that the manufacturers are going overboard with the tech to where some of these sets are unwatchable for any extended amount of time. Like I said, it is sometimes painful to watch the Samsung 120hz LED set I own. Is it the LED or 120hz? Probably a combo of both. My new 600hz plasma is much easier on the eyes, better PQ, and the cost per sq. inch was cheaper by far over the LED.

Just my .02
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post #7 of 179 Old 04-20-2009, 08:49 AM - Thread Starter
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Quick Question, does LED have bad color bleeding like the LCD had?
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post #8 of 179 Old 04-20-2009, 10:01 AM
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Originally Posted by MojoDrew32 View Post

Quick Question, does LED have bad color bleeding like the LCD had?

No color bleeding that I could see. The picture is so crisp it literally makes your eyes bleed. I would say the picture is fantastic in many regards, but over done in others, like the WOW, POP and 3D factor. If it could just be turned down a tad, it would be near perfect for an LCD/LED with the current tech we now have.

I watched some hockey, it was incredible, no blurring what so ever. The colors and flesh tones are right there, etc... It is a wonderful set, but... It really does make my eyes bleed and basically gives me an electronic form of motion sickness. And I drive for a living!

Mike

And let me add, my wife has no such issues with the set, she absolutely loves the pq and the fact that we now have a tv in the bedroom.
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post #9 of 179 Old 04-20-2009, 10:16 AM
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I have heard reports from others that the LED sets cause eye fatigue

I saw one at BB and could easily see the flashlighting issues that the regular LCD's are plagued
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post #10 of 179 Old 04-20-2009, 10:20 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by localnet View Post

Like I said, it is sometimes painful to watch the Samsung 120hz LED set I own. Is it the LED or 120hz? Probably a combo of both. My new 600hz plasma is much easier on the eyes, better PQ, and the cost per sq. inch was cheaper by far over the LED.

Just my .02

You are confusing sub-field drive with lcd refresh. The plasma is actually 60hz not 600hz. Plasma makers are just starting to use that spec because it sounds better than lcds 120hz even though the two numbers are unrelated.

Oh, and I know you threw a fit on the owners thread, but I told you that you should have waited for the 1" thin Samsung plasma. Samsungs LED sets are not ready for primetime this year and they are ridiculously overpriced for what you get.
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post #11 of 179 Old 04-20-2009, 11:45 AM
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Well the same old differences between LCDs and Plasmas still exist:

Brightness - LCDs are best for moderatly bright to bright rooms. Plasmas are best for Dark to moderately bright rooms. There is considerable overlap in the center which happens to be MOST ROOMS where either can be used comfortably. Still - advantage LCD.

Panel Life - Both types are rated for about 60,000 hours. But in the case of plasma, what that means is that at the end of that period the set has fallen to half brightness - plasmas dim over time as did CRTs, and for the same reasons - the phosphors wear out. In the case of a conventional LCD, at the end of 60,000 hours it is just as bright as new, but you have a 50% chance that one of the multiple CCFL lights will burn out (they are replaceable but expect to pay $200-$400 labor). LED LCDs have much longer rated lives than either CCFL LCD or plasma but repair costs are not known. Still, if you care about video quality, you would pay for recalibration on the plasma as it fades away, and the LCD just needs calibration once - advantage LCD.

Dynamic brightness - Truth to tell, almost all manufacturers have undersized the power supplies on 2009 plasmas to reduce power consumption in anticipation of the 2010 California "Tier 1" power saving requirements. This means that in bright scenes the current limiting on the power supply crushes the whites. This did not happen on the 2008 plasmas, and it does not happen on the few Pioneer plasma units left unsold. Advantage LED LCD which uses far less juice than either plasma or CCFL LCD.

Motion Blur - This mattered a lot as late as two years ago. But the latest 120Hz and 240Hz LCD panels have so little blur that there is little difference to notice.

Off-Axis viewing - The LED LCDs look worse to me than the CCFLs. In my viewing environment all the room seating is less than 15 degrees off center - I could use plasma, LCD, or LED LCD and never notice a problem. Still - advantage plasma.

Frame Interpolation - I use it on high motion sports like Hockey, and I also like it for movies on Blu-Ray and DVD - but Digital TV broadcasts don't always benefit, sometimes I bother to cut it off which takes a few button presses. It is purely a matter of preference but the feature is rare on plasmas and not so rare on LCDs. The best implementations of FI are from Samsung and Sony, LCD only.

The best examples of both technologies are very good televisions with outstanding video quality. Between the two there is room for personal preference. The AVS members fight to absurd lengths about performance problems that WERE significant two years ago but don't amount to much today.

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post #12 of 179 Old 04-20-2009, 11:52 AM
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Panel Life - Both types are rated for about 60,000 hours. But in the case of plasma, what that means is that at the end of that period the set has fallen to half brightness - plasmas dim over time as did CRTs, and for the same reasons - the phosphors wear out. In the case of a conventional LCD, at the end of 60,000 hours it is just as bright as new, but you have a 50% chance that one of the multiple CCFL lights will burn out (they are replaceable but expect to pay $200-$400 labor). LED LCDs have much longer rated lives than either CCFL LCD or plasma but repair costs are not known. Still, if you care about video quality, you would pay for recalibration on the plasma as it fades away, and the LCD just needs calibration once - advantage LCD.

Somehow I can't picture myself scheduling a recalibration of my plasma in 60 years. Maybe I should have bought that LCD after all!
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post #13 of 179 Old 04-20-2009, 12:08 PM
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Originally Posted by tbird8450 View Post

Somehow I can't picture myself scheduling a recalibration of my plasma in 60 years. Maybe I should have bought that LCD after all!

You'd be surprised - the stats say that between the kids in the day and the adults at night, 10-12 hours per day of ontime is not unusual. At that rate it would take 16 years to fade to half brightness. Still, the phosphors fade fastest when new - if you care to keep the set calibrated, you might pay for three calibrations on the plasma vs. one on the LCD.

But I agree, if you are the less critical viewer who never pays for ISF calibration, or cannot do it yourself, there is little difference - you would keep cranking the brightness on the Plasma. But realize that as the Brightness control is advanced, the plasma loses one of the oft-quoted advantages which is black level. It could even be considerably worse than the LCD at the end of it's life - but chances are that a videophile would have long since replaced it before that happened.

Where these factors matter most is in 24X7 commercial applications such as airport displays and sports bars. The LCD has taken over many such markets.

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gary McCoy View Post

Panel Life - Both types are rated for about 60,000 hours...

Panasonic is rating their sets at 100,000 hours now, so we're up to ~27 years at 10 hrs/day to half brightness

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post #15 of 179 Old 04-20-2009, 12:22 PM
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Originally Posted by Gary McCoy View Post

You'd be surprised - the stats say that between the kids in the day and the adults at night, 10-12 hours per day of ontime is not unusual. At that rate it would take 16 years to fade to half brightness. Still, the phosphors fade fastest when new - if you care to keep the set calibrated, you might pay for three calibrations on the plasma vs. one on the LCD.

But I agree, if you are the less critical viewer who never pays for ISF calibration, or cannot do it yourself, there is little difference - you would keep cranking the brightness on the Plasma. But realize that as the Brightness control is advanced, the plasma loses one of the oft-quoted advantages which is black level. It could even be considerably worse than the LCD at the end of it's life - but chances are that a videophile would have long since replaced it before that happened.

Where these factors matter most is in 24X7 commercial applications such as airport displays and sports bars. The LCD has taken over many such markets.

As the plasma dims, you would be cranking up the contrast control to compensate. Your blacks will still be fine.

And I probabably average 2-3 hours of TV per day. There are days where I never turn it on.
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post #16 of 179 Old 04-20-2009, 12:49 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gary McCoy View Post

Well the same old differences between LCDs and Plasmas still exist:

Brightness - LCDs are best for moderately bright to bright rooms. Plasmas are best for Dark to moderately bright rooms. There is considerable overlap in the center which happens to be MOST ROOMS where either can be used comfortably. Still - advantage LCD.

Hardly, in a dim room the LCD tends to fall apart with clouds and viewing angle issues becoming much easier to see. With Plasma, in a very bright room you loose a bit of the blacks but the picture still maintains it's pop. Advantage Plasma

Panel Life - Both types are rated for about 60,000 hours. But in the case of plasma, what that means is that at the end of that period the set has fallen to half brightness - plasmas dim over time as did CRTs, and for the same reasons - the phosphors wear out. In the case of a conventional LCD, at the end of 60,000 hours it is just as bright as new, but you have a 50% chance that one of the multiple CCFL lights will burn out (they are replaceable but expect to pay $200-$400 labor). LED LCDs have much longer rated lives than either CCFL LCD or plasma but repair costs are not known. Still, if you care about video quality, you would pay for recalibration on the plasma as it fades away, and the LCD just needs calibration once - advantage LCD.

Again not true, Panasonic plasma sets are rated at 100,000 hours till half-life, and yes CCFL lamps do dim over time since they too have a phosphor to produce their light. And LED bulbs are rated at 50,000 hours until half-life, which is lower than both CCFL and Plasma, and since LED also uses a phosphor to produce light, they dim as well and Local dim sets are also subject to the same uneven wear problems that Plasma suffers from, probably more so due to the lower half life of the bulbs. - Advantage Plasma

Dynamic brightness - Truth to tell, almost all manufacturers have undersized the power supplies on 2009 plasmas to reduce power consumption in anticipation of the 2010 California "Tier 1" power saving requirements. This means that in bright scenes the current limiting on the power supply crushes the whites. This did not happen on the 2008 plasmas, and it does not happen on the few Pioneer plasma units left unsold. Advantage LED LCD which uses far less juice than either plasma or CCFL LCD.

Actually, this does happen on the Pioneers, quite badly infact. (at least it did on mine) Considering that I had to turn the backlight way down on the LCD to make it look decent, the whites on the LCD are now dimmer than my old 42px75 running in cinema mode (which didn't have this "white dimming" problem, as a matter off fact, you are the first person I heard mention this so far in all the Panny threads.) and LED LCD has so many issues right now that they aren't even worth a single look for at least 3 more years. Advantage Plasma

Motion Blur - This mattered a lot as late as two years ago. But the latest 120Hz and 240Hz LCD panels have so little blur that there is little difference to notice.

My 52a630 has terrible blur, they haven't even come close to fixing this issue, sure ghosting has been reduced to the point that it is almost gone, but motion blur is still in full effect. It is sad that my Panasonic 42px75 has far better motion performance than the 52a630.

Off-Axis viewing - The LED LCDs look worse to me than the CCFLs. In my viewing environment all the room seating is less than 15 degrees off center - I could use plasma, LCD, or LED LCD and never notice a problem. Still - advantage plasma.

This one you got right, however, it is worse than you let on. If I sit dead center in a bright room I have a near Kuro picture, if I move one seat over the picture starts to wash out (even worse when in the dark) so plasma holds a HUGE advantage here.

Frame Interpolation - I use it on high motion sports like Hockey, and I also like it for movies on Blu-Ray and DVD - but Digital TV broadcasts don't always benefit, sometimes I bother to cut it off which takes a few button presses. It is purely a matter of preference but the feature is rare on plasmas and not so rare on LCDs. The best implementations of FI are from Samsung and Sony, LCD only.

I thought it was neat at first, until I started to feel very sick one night, I quickly realized that the AMP feature was making me sick, I turned it off and haven't felt sick since. I rarely get motion sick, but this sure managed to do it. (and it was a slow paced animated movie so it was the accelerated look of AMP that caused it)

The best examples of both technologies are very good televisions with outstanding video quality. Between the two there is room for personal preference. The AVS members fight to absurd lengths about performance problems that WERE significant two years ago but don't amount to much today.

I'll admit that the 52a630 does produce a nice image when the lights are on and I am sitting dead center, but there is so much room for improvement that I can't consider a LCD for any kind of viewing, even when I am the only one watching it.

As someone who went from a 42px75 panny to a 5020 Kuro to a 52a630 LCD and soon to a Panasonic 50g10, I think that I can point out just how wrong a lot of those points really are. My replies are in red

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post #17 of 179 Old 04-20-2009, 01:18 PM
 
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and since LED also uses a phosphor to produce light,

Why are they using white LEDs instead of RGB?
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post #18 of 179 Old 04-20-2009, 01:22 PM
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Originally Posted by duvetyne View Post

Why are they using white LEDs instead of RGB?

Sony uses RGB in their XBR local dim sets, but everyone else uses white LED because they are much cheaper to produce. (and next year Sony will probably also be using white LED as well because of this cost issue) I also wouldn't be surprised if RGB LED also had some dimming problems as well, but not enough data is available on this as of right now for me to form an opinion on them just yet.

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post #19 of 179 Old 04-20-2009, 02:13 PM
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Originally Posted by PENDRAG0ON View Post

Motion Blur - This mattered a lot as late as two years ago. But the latest 120Hz and 240Hz LCD panels have so little blur that there is little difference to notice.

My 52a630 has terrible blur, they haven't even come close to fixing this issue, sure ghosting has been reduced to the point that it is almost gone, but motion blur is still in full effect. It is sad that my Panasonic 42px75 has far better motion performance than the 52a630.

well 120hz tvs like sony xbr8 and other sony 240hz tvs achieve full 1080lines of motion resolution.
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post #20 of 179 Old 04-20-2009, 02:19 PM
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Only with frame interpolation engaged.
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post #21 of 179 Old 04-20-2009, 02:21 PM
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Originally Posted by StinDaWg View Post

You are confusing sub-field drive with lcd refresh. The plasma is actually 60hz not 600hz. Plasma makers are just starting to use that spec because it sounds better than lcds 120hz even though the two numbers are unrelated.

Oh, and I know you threw a fit on the owners thread, but I told you that you should have waited for the 1" thin Samsung plasma. Samsungs LED sets are not ready for primetime this year and they are ridiculously overpriced for what you get.

I threw a fit? Your the ass that walked into the picture, calling me an IDIOT for buying the LED, my wife was giddy, you bitched! And saying I should have bought a 50+ inch tv to do the job that this 40" LED does. And a 50+ inch set hung on my small bedroom wall would have sent my wife through the roof!

I may not like it, but my wife does, and it works for the job intended. It is still hanging on the wall, flush mounted, by a string, the main reason I bought it. This is not my main tv, as I have a 46" Sony KDL46V3000 that handles that job just fine in my living room, and a new 2009 Samsung plasma 58B560 that I just hung in my family room for movies and football.

I may bitch about the literal headaches that this new Samsung LED gives me, but I am not about to take it back, 2 grand or not. Because no one currently makes a 40", 1 inch thick television, that I can hang on a wall by a thread THAT MY WIFE LOVES.

In regards to all of the technical aspects of 60, 120 or 600hz, I ain't got a f'n clue. I just know what looks good to my eyes. My Sammy 600hz, 1080p plasma shines, the best tv I own right now. My Sony 60hz 1080p LCD is awesome, love this set. My 40" Samsung LED fits the bill and makes my wife happy, and I have yet to walk into it on my way to the bathroom at 3am. My 22" Toshiba 720p in my bathroom rocks and the 27" Samsung 720p in my truck with DirecTV works like a charm. And then there is the Sony 52" XBR2, which I need to sell, or hang in my office or guest room... What to do?

Hmmmmmmmm..........

And then that damn 22" LG 720p in my kitchen, forgot that one.
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post #22 of 179 Old 04-20-2009, 02:21 PM
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well 120hz tvs like sony xbr8 and other sony 240hz tvs achieve full 1080lines of motion resolution.

Too funny, my 1920:1080 52a630 even with AMP on high comes nowhere near the motion resolution of my 1024:768 Panasonic Plasma that is 2 years old. 120hz helps a bit, but nowhere near enough and 240hz isn't much better, maybe 480hz will finally fix it.

The only reason that LED local dim sets attain 1080 lines of picture resolution is because they combine the slight step up in motion that enhancers allow with a pulsing backlight which causes the screen to flicker JUST LIKE A PLASMA, most LCD fans turn this function off which brings the sets down to normal 120hz LCD levels. LCD TV makers are so quick to add so many plasma issues just to get a slight boost in performance that it isn't even funny anymore.

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post #23 of 179 Old 04-20-2009, 02:29 PM
 
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but everyone else uses white LED because they are much cheaper to produce.

Red Green and Blue Leds are very easy to manufacture. White LEDs ARE Blue LEDs with a yellow phosphor...a two stage process. They generally don't contain much red light either, which is why RGB sources would be better.
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post #24 of 179 Old 04-20-2009, 02:40 PM
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Originally Posted by duvetyne View Post

Red Green and Blue Leds are very easy to manufacture. White LEDs ARE Blue LEDs with a yellow phosphor...a two stage process. They generally don't contain much red light either, which is why RGB sources would be better.

You will have to ask xrox about why they do that, he explained it once about 6 months ago, but I don't remember it well enough to give you a solid answer. Cost had something to do with it, but he had several other reasons behind the decision as well.

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post #25 of 179 Old 04-20-2009, 02:40 PM
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white LED's that use phosphor have a 1/2 life of 50K hrs for brightness. Unfdortunatly it seems that the degradation of the emmited light color temperature is much quicker. At least according to this guys experience:

http://www.nickhill.co.uk/white_LED_...xpectancy.html

Could be that the TV's use better LED's, but they haven't been around long enough to tell.

Another 'ignored' aspect of LCD life Expectency is the degradation of the color filters over time. LCD Computer monitors need calibration evry 2-3 months.
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post #26 of 179 Old 04-20-2009, 02:43 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by duvetyne View Post

Red Green and Blue Leds are very easy to manufacture. White LEDs ARE Blue LEDs with a yellow phosphor...a two stage process. They generally don't contain much red light either, which is why RGB sources would be better.

Some white LED's are UV LED's with a mix of red grren and blue light emmiting phosphors.
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post #27 of 179 Old 04-20-2009, 02:43 PM
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I say again, to the average user there is little reason to prefer one technology over the other. Get what looks best to your eyes. You are hearing from the technology fanboys now.

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post #28 of 179 Old 04-20-2009, 02:46 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gary mccoy View Post

i say again, to the average user there is little reason to prefer one technology over the other. Get what looks best to your eyes. You are hearing from the technology fanboys now.

amen!
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post #29 of 179 Old 04-20-2009, 02:59 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gary McCoy View Post

I say again, to the average user there is little reason to prefer one technology over the other. Get what looks best to your eyes. You are hearing from the technology fanboys now.

That coming from a well known LCD fanboy who bases all plasma's off of an old 2005 Plasma. I've owned high quality sets from both sides now, and Plasma quite simply smokes LCD in most areas.

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post #30 of 179 Old 04-20-2009, 03:34 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PENDRAG0ON View Post

That coming from a well known LCD fanboy who bases all plasma's off of an old 2005 Plasma. I've owned high quality sets from both sides now, and Plasma quite simply smokes LCD in most areas.

You seem to lack understanding of my position which is plain to read in this thread among many others, so I'll spell it out:

1) I am specificly a fan of FRAME INTERPOLATION because it relieves a problem that has bugged me for over 50 years on all film-based material in all venues including my home theater and commercial film theaters, which is I perceive the film as a jerky series of still images as if a strobe light was in use. I also have a problem with the uneven motion caused by the telecine process. A 120Hz refresh and video processor with frame interpolation fixes both. So sorry but relief is not available for the problems that bug ME from the plasma technology that YOU prefer.

2) The best type of technology for a flat panel must be chosen after considering both the natural and nightime lighting and the seating positions. In my family room in sunny California, this means an LCD. In another room in my house such as the light-controlled Home Theater, I might select another choice like a plasma or CRT, if I didn't already have a front projector and a 96" screen, that switches between 60Hz and 72Hz to alleviate the uneven motion problem on DVDs. I'm not going smaller.

3) Anybody promoting one technology over the other in all cases under all conditions is a fanboy whose opinions can be safely disgarded. A valid reccomendation must consider lighting and audience positions.

FYI the Panny plasma I tried and the 120Hz Samsung LCD I eventually bought were both brand new designs in the third quarter of 2007. A year later I purchased a second Samsung LCD for a bedroom set, a 720p, 60Hz model that was appropriate for the video sources and viewing distance in that room.

It matters not at all to me that your opinion differs from mine, after practicing the Home Theater hobby since 1984, where I started with a VHS recorder and a 4:3, 480i resolution CRT front projector. I know what I like, and care not how many or how few share my preferences.

Now you have a nice day and please try to always give good advice after carefully reasoning about it, in the true spirit of the AVS Forum.

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