The real deal on newer plasma technology... - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 367 Old 05-13-2009, 03:43 PM - Thread Starter
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Well after reading about Plasmas for years and all of their shortcomings(burn IN, Image retention, glossy screens, green push(on the panny models)...I finally decided to put all of that to the side when I realized I could get a 42" "s" series 1080p panasonic for less than 600 bills...I used to own a sharp aquos(returned) and also own an LCOS A2000(still running strong)

1st things first...as far as the image retention and burn in...this is a NON ISSUE on panasonic. I generally watch everything full screen and watch some espn(sports tickers) and have never seen anything resembling burn in or IR. I will say when you turn the TV off you can see the outline of what was last on the screen a bit but as soon as you turn the TV back on its fine.

Glossy screen...another non issue...My SXRD is more troublesome in the daytime than the panasonic...the anti glare screen is excellent. What used to be LCD's long time advantage is no longer...


Green push.....I was expecting grass to look like some kind of fluorescent green ...not the case at all. Green looks very natural and not neon like at all.

Overall picture quality...
The panny has an excellent overall PQ....better than the sharp LCD that I had and on the same level as the SXRD A2000...they are both excellent in different ways. I hope this helps some folks who are looking to buy.
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post #2 of 367 Old 05-13-2009, 08:57 PM
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In spite of claims to the contrary, LCD technology will always come up short in terms of picture quality compared to plasma. That's why the promoters of LCD technology will always have to make up stuff to make plasma sound like a bad deal. The tail wags the dog. Anyway, most people have bought into it. Congratulations for seeing otherwise.
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post #3 of 367 Old 05-14-2009, 02:39 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tazishere View Post

In spite of claims to the contrary, LCD technology will always come up short in terms of picture quality compared to plasma. That's why the promoters of LCD technology will always have to make up stuff to make plasma sound like a bad deal. The tail wags the dog. Anyway, most people have bought into it. Congratulations for seeing otherwise.

Are you serious? Please provide a link to some information that defends your statements. LCD is continually getting better and now with the new LED LCD TVs, they are pretty much on par with plasma, but without burn-in or IR, plus the life of LEDs will trump that of plasma and be more energy efficient.
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post #4 of 367 Old 05-14-2009, 03:19 AM
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Well Tazishere looks like you may have started a fight that could turn into a battle, maybe even a war. The minute you voice your opinion that one is better than the fanboys all start screaming. I think the OP made some solid judgements, and since he does own both just adds a bit of support to them. In my personal experience I find plasma to be a better picture as well. I own both as well. My plasma is a few years older than my LCD and in my opinion looks better. I am not saying light years better but if I watch my plasma for a while then switch to the LCD the difference is noticable, even to my wife who could care less. Bottom line is the fanboys on either side aren't going to change their mind anytime soon so why waste the time and effort. Cudos to the OP for keeping an open mind and owning both and giving an honest thought for people who are new to HDTV's and can easily be duped by the "problems". Both have issues and it would be nice if for once people would stop being just fanboys and screaming how much better one is than the other. Reminds me of my kids sometimes.

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post #5 of 367 Old 05-14-2009, 03:53 AM
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For less than 6 bills??
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post #6 of 367 Old 05-14-2009, 04:21 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bigbare View Post

Well Tazishere looks like you may have started a fight that could turn into a battle, maybe even a war. The minute you voice your opinion that one is better than the fanboys all start screaming. I think the OP made some solid judgements, and since he does own both just adds a bit of support to them. In my personal experience I find plasma to be a better picture as well. I own both as well. My plasma is a few years older than my LCD and in my opinion looks better. I am not saying light years better but if I watch my plasma for a while then switch to the LCD the difference is noticable, even to my wife who could care less. Bottom line is the fanboys on either side aren't going to change their mind anytime soon so why waste the time and effort. Cudos to the OP for keeping an open mind and owning both and giving an honest thought for people who are new to HDTV's and can easily be duped by the "problems". Both have issues and it would be nice if for once people would stop being just fanboys and screaming how much better one is than the other. Reminds me of my kids sometimes.

I mean, honestly, I couldn't care less which was better, but the inherent problems with burn-in worries me. I have a plasma as well along with a very old Sony XBR projection that I'm looking to replace. But I do see IR on the plasma after I leave it on one screen for a while and am always worried that if I leave an image too long, there will be burn in. IMO, if you're spending thousands of dollars on a TV, you shouldn't have to worry about these "problems". That's why I will be getting an LCD next. If plasma were better and didn't have these "problems", I would get that instead. However, the Neo-PDPs do sound interesting, but I'd like to learn more about them and to see if they have the same issues.
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post #7 of 367 Old 05-14-2009, 06:34 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jonLavs View Post

I mean, honestly, I couldn't care less which was better, but the inherent problems with burn-in worries me......
IMO, if you're spending thousands of dollars on a TV, you shouldn't have to worry about these "problems". That's why I will be getting an LCD next. If plasma were better and didn't have these "problems", I would get that instead.

I agree. An LCD is a no worry choice. I am on the road allot, sometimes months at a time and I am perfectly happy that I have several LCD's at home. The wife tends to be hard on equipment and I could just see the abuse that she could do to a plasma.

While I have always wanted to get a really good plasma, my lifestyle at the moment doesn't allow it since I would have those worries.

Let me add that I don't think that Burn In is the problem that it used to be, but many people here continue to report IR, which is a lesser form of the same thing. That is my worry, if IR is still an issue, Burn In could be as well.
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post #8 of 367 Old 05-14-2009, 07:50 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jonLavs View Post

Are you serious? Please provide a link to some information that defends your statements. LCD is continually getting better and now with the new LED LCD TVs, they are pretty much on par with plasma, but without burn-in or IR, plus the life of LEDs will trump that of plasma and be more energy efficient.

are you serious?
please provide a link to defend your statements
LED sets are even worse at off axis viewing than regular LCD and the LCD sets I have seen have more blooming and flashlighting issues than regular LCD's not to mention that no LCD tv has matched the Kuro in black levels,then you still have the motion problems to deal with
I'll take my chances with some IR over all these problems
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post #9 of 367 Old 05-14-2009, 08:05 AM
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There is a certain irony that some folks worry about burn in, which is more theoretical than real, so they say to buy an LCD, where uneven backlighting is a standard feature (read the LED thread).

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post #10 of 367 Old 05-14-2009, 09:04 AM
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Watch Sin City on a 9g Kuro next to the worlds best LCD
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post #11 of 367 Old 05-14-2009, 09:09 AM
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Its also false that LCD's don't suffer from Image Retention. I have SERIOUS IR on my 37 inch LCD monitor. My computer locked up for several days while I was out of town and I can still see patterns from the desktop image I had on. I am running a white background to try to clear the IR, it's working but it has taken several days.
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post #12 of 367 Old 05-14-2009, 09:29 AM
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post #13 of 367 Old 05-14-2009, 10:51 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by docmal View Post

Its also false that LCD's don't suffer from Image Retention. I have SERIOUS IR on my 37 inch LCD monitor. My computer locked up for several days while I was out of town and I can still see patterns from the desktop image I had on. I am running a white background to try to clear the IR, it's working but it has taken several days.

I get temporary IR on my LCD all the time, doesn't bother me much.
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post #14 of 367 Old 05-14-2009, 11:15 AM
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Originally Posted by jonLavs View Post

Are you serious? Please provide a link to some information that defends your statements. LCD is continually getting better and now with the new LED LCD TVs, they are pretty much on par with plasma, but without burn-in or IR, plus the life of LEDs will trump that of plasma and be more energy efficient.

LED is currently a poor choice for backlighting LCD sets, for one they only have a 50,000 hour half life (vs 60,000 hours for a CCFL LCD and 100,000 hours for a Panny Plasma) two, LEDs have serious aging issues, where no two bulbs in the set ages at the same rate. (and local dim sets are very suceptable to uneven wear from black bars) and third, their light output wavelength = poor off angle viewing vs normal LCD and terrible off angle viewing compared to plasma.

Give LED backlights another 3 years to improve and they might be worth something.

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post #15 of 367 Old 05-14-2009, 11:26 AM
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Originally Posted by fourtytwoinch View Post

I get temporary IR on my LCD all the time, doesn't bother me much.

And most IR on plasma displays is also temporary. We've had a plasma display for six years now, and there are absolutely no signs of burn-in or image retention. About 30% of what we watch has either letterbox or pillar bars. It is simply not an issue for video. I admit that a moderate amount of care may be necessary for heavy gaming, but even at that, I think the issue is over-blown.

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post #16 of 367 Old 05-14-2009, 11:39 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jonLavs View Post

Are you serious? Please provide a link to some information that defends your statements. LCD is continually getting better and now with the new LED LCD TVs, they are pretty much on par with plasma, but without burn-in or IR, plus the life of LEDs will trump that of plasma and be more energy efficient.

Are you serious? I've never seen a drop of burn in, IR or any other issue. Everybody that sees my set wishes they could dump their LCDs and run out and buy a plasma like mine. You are obviously an LCD fanboy who hasn't a clue about plasma tv's.

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post #17 of 367 Old 05-14-2009, 11:53 AM
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I agree StuJac. The Panny plasma is awesome compared to our other LCD in the bedroom and I've never experienced any issue with the plasma.
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post #18 of 367 Old 05-14-2009, 12:16 PM
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Not to add fuel to the fire, but LCD can and will have IR (burn-in) if you are not careful. I have a 47" Westinghouse LCD that is used to display photography in the gallery at my wife's studio. The images she shows do not always fill the screen. On both sides of the display, there are lines that have burned in that correspond to the most common picture size. No display technology (that I am aware of) is immune to IR.

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post #19 of 367 Old 05-14-2009, 12:19 PM
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Originally Posted by TimV View Post

Not to add fuel to the fire, but LCD can and will have IR (burn-in) if you are not careful. I have a 47" Westinghouse LCD that is used to display photography in the gallery at my wife's studio. The images she shows do not always fill the screen. On both sides of the display, there are lines that have burned in that correspond to the most common picture size. No display technology (that I am aware of) is immune to IR.

Please-add more fuel as this argument is fairly ridiculous. Anybody who owns both knows that plasma is better, for now anyway.

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post #20 of 367 Old 05-14-2009, 01:30 PM
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THANK YOU!!

I was trying to decide between the Samsung LN55B650 and the PN58B540. But thanks to this thread, my mind is made up (I think). I'm going to check back here later. If anyone has any add'l info to add regarding either of these sets, please feel free to share your knowledge, experience or opinions.

Thanks again.


PS Great forum you have here.
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post #21 of 367 Old 05-14-2009, 01:53 PM
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It still amazes me that with all these people who own plasma t.v.'s report no issue on burn in that people still fall into the paranoia so easily! Also funny when IR is mentioned on LCD people either don't believe it or just blow it off like its no big deal! Here is one I did myself, brand new 50" plasma, less that 150 hrs. easily. I fell asleep watching a movie one night, movie ends and the menu stays up for around 6 hours. I thought I had destroyed the display for sure. Tried the white light, etc for an hour and decided it wasn't doing anything. Turned on the regular cable, couldn't see the image unless it was a dark screen. Within a few hours of watching so tv the image had dwindled to almost non existent, only when a full black screen. Before the day was out and we went to bed the image was gone completely. Maybe a total of 5 or 6 hours and image gone. If you are still terrified of burn in then I think there is a bigger problem then burn in.

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For less than 6 bills??

what for less than 6 bills??

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post #22 of 367 Old 05-14-2009, 06:07 PM - Thread Starter
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Im just stating my opinion on the three technologies Ive owned.
I paid 8 bills for the S1 panny and got 200 dollars of rebates for the warranty and the mount...hence 6 bills because I would have bought that other stuff anyway. No question to me plasma > lcd...everyone who said you cant see a plasma in a bright room hasnt seen the new panasonics. Hardly any glare and bright as can be. My SXRD rear projection(2 years old) is just as good as the plasma though for what thats worth.
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post #23 of 367 Old 05-15-2009, 03:07 AM
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good point about another fine non "problem" with plasmas, the dreaded glare! Again my plasma has no anti glare coating and I can watch it in my room which has a large picture window with the blinds open. I still get the same picture quality and have no issue with glare. Direct light on any screen will produce a reflection! Again OP nice job hopefully quieting some peoples fears on these non-issues with plasma's.

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post #24 of 367 Old 05-15-2009, 06:04 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PENDRAG0ON View Post

LED is currently a poor choice for backlighting LCD sets, for one they only have a 50,000 hour half life (vs 60,000 hours for a CCFL LCD and 100,000 hours for a Panny Plasma) two, LEDs have serious aging issues, where no two bulbs in the set ages at the same rate. (and local dim sets are very suceptable to uneven wear from black bars) and third, their light output wavelength = poor off angle viewing vs normal LCD and terrible off angle viewing compared to plasma.

Give LED backlights another 3 years to improve and they might be worth something.

http://gizmodo.com/5151865/led-bulb-...what-they-seem

http://www.nickhill.co.uk/white_LED_...xpectancy.html

Okay so 50000hrs or 17years @ 8hrs/day from a TV is not enough for you huh? Even at 12hrs/day, you're looking at 11yrs. I'm sure you will be changing your TV in 5-7yrs time so the life of an LED is not really an issue.

While you are pulling articles out which are fine, but LED TVs have now only been out for about a year or so, so we'll have to see the true unevenness of these LEDs and if there is uniformity issues over time.

And yes, I love watching my TV from 100 degrees off center all the time. I mean, it's obvious you guys love your plasma, but I really don't know how many more years plasma has. Even LCDs are going to be extinct once OLEDs are within reach of mainstream consumers.
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post #25 of 367 Old 05-15-2009, 06:07 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by StuJac View Post

Are you serious? I've never seen a drop of burn in, IR or any other issue. Everybody that sees my set wishes they could dump their LCDs and run out and buy a plasma like mine. You are obviously an LCD fanboy who hasn't a clue about plasma tv's.

That's funny that you call me a fanboy when I don't even own an LCD TV and the only TVs I own are a Plasma and a Projection. I am planning on replacing the projection, but it will be with an LCD.
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post #26 of 367 Old 05-15-2009, 06:47 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jonLavs View Post

While you are pulling articles out which are fine, but LED TVs have now only been out for about a year or so, so we'll have to see the true unevenness of these LEDs and if there is uniformity issues over time.

And yes, I love watching my TV from 100 degrees off center all the time. I mean, it's obvious you guys love your plasma, but I really don't know how many more years plasma has. Even LCDs are going to be extinct once OLEDs are within reach of mainstream consumers.

I think that PENDRAGON has a good point with the uneven aging of the LEDs that are used for backlighting. There is not an easy or cheap way to predict if the LED that lights Zone A is going to be the same brightness in a year as it's neighbor in Zone A-1. This could cause uneven areas.

As for the viewing angle, it is a common thing that PDP fans bring up as to why LCD is not worth the money and it is just as much a load of bull as most of the burn in hysteria out there.
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post #27 of 367 Old 05-15-2009, 08:18 AM
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Originally Posted by TNG View Post

I think that PENDRAGON has a good point with the uneven aging of the LEDs that are used for backlighting. There is not an easy or cheap way to predict if the LED that lights Zone A is going to be the same brightness in a year as it's neighbor in Zone A-1. This could cause uneven areas.

As for the viewing angle, it is a common thing that PDP fans bring up as to why LCD is not worth the money and it is just as much a load of bull as most of the burn in hysteria out there.

I wouldn't call the viewing angle issue bull, it is certainly real. But not a big deal for most people. If you watch TV often at larger angles, it will be an issue.

Likewise, uneven wear (commonly referred to as burn-in) on plasmas is real, but with a little care is not an issue for most people. But if you watch a lot of stuff with black bars it probably will be eventually.

As we all know (or should know), no TV is perfect. And each technology has very real strengths and weaknesses. However, the gaps between these strengths and weaknesses is closing every year from both ends.
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post #28 of 367 Old 05-15-2009, 08:35 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TNG View Post

I think that PENDRAGON has a good point with the uneven aging of the LEDs that are used for backlighting. There is not an easy or cheap way to predict if the LED that lights Zone A is going to be the same brightness in a year as it's neighbor in Zone A-1. This could cause uneven areas.

Yeah, uneven wear is a possibility, if you have a 16:9 set and watch movies with an aspect ratio of 2.33:1 (or similar) all the time - or 4:3 movies, for that matter. Everything that gives you black borders.

I wonder how many non-16:9-formatted material I'd have to watch to get uneven wear?

And wouldn't plasmas have the very same "problem"?

Oh no - of course not as their panel life is rated about 100.000 hrs - at least Panasonic says so, the company that tries to sell you a set. A really trustworthy number, then.
So it *could* have this problem but you won't see it until 2029?

Some people also seem to have difficulties comparing sets as they use this number when panel life is concerned and a sentence later they argument with the black level of a Kuro. And yet another sentence later the brightness of the new Panasonics is used against LCDs, while the Kuros still offer the best color fidelity.
As if there exists some kind of perfect display that combines all these properties. Not that I wouldn't be interested...

Regardless if we have 100.000 or 50.000 hrs - these are statistics and not proven constants. A display can - and often will - fail much earlier, regardless of the make and often not because of its backlight. It's the power supplies and inverter boards - everything that handles power - that is the no. 1 defect.

So, does a local dimming LED set have uneven wear? Well, I guess the tires of my car also have uneven wear as I drive more right handed bends than left handed - or was it the other way round?

Quote:


As for the viewing angle, it is a common thing that PDP fans bring up as to why LCD is not worth the money and it is just as much a load of bull as most of the burn in hysteria out there.

You hit the nail on its head.

The viewing angle is something you take care of when you set up the set - usually only once, perhaps twice in its whole life. It's the moment when you really care about the room's seating and where the optimal viewing positions are attained.

This is exactly the same argument that owners of very reflective panels (plasma & certain LCD models) defend their sets with - only that this time the culprit are light sources...

bye
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bye
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post #29 of 367 Old 05-15-2009, 09:19 AM
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I agree with a lot of the posters that each technology has it's short comings. In the end an Xbox 360 game, and the plasma break in slides made my decision clear. I had taken my 111FD back to BB after having it for 29 days, and had replaced it with the new Samsung LN52B750. I had been worried about burn in, and some of the other issues associated with plasma TV's. After watching the new LCD for a while I did notice that the whites were much brighter, and the picture was very crisp and clear.

I then played an Xbox 360 game called Farcry 2 that I had been playing earlier on the plasma. This is where the differences in the plasma and the LCD became apparent to me. The color depth, and richness that the game had with the plasma were missing with the LCD. The deep blue sky was now pale blue. All the different shades of green in the landscape now looked almost the same color. After fooling with the settings a while, and not being able to get the desired picture I decided to put in the plasma break in slides just to see how uniform the screen was. What I discovered was that the screen was very uniform in color, but the depth of color was missing.

The slides that were dark red on the Plasma, were a much lighter red on the LCD. The dark blue slide was now several shades lighter. The best way I could describe this would be like putting one coat of red paint on a white wall would equal the LCD red. The plasma would be more like having three coats of red paint. Maybe this has something to do with the black level people talk about. All I know is that the reds were red and the blues were, but the shades were no where near the same.

Within 24 hours I was back at best buy swapping back for my Pioneer 111FD.

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post #30 of 367 Old 05-15-2009, 09:29 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TNG View Post

As for the viewing angle, it is a common thing that PDP fans bring up as to why LCD is not worth the money and it is just as much a load of bull as most of the burn in hysteria out there.

Almost every review of an LCD will also bring up the poor off axis viewing angle so it's not just "plasma fan boys" and it is a reality. I don't think it's necessarily a deal breaker but it should be an issue that needs to be addressed for a prospective buyer. IR is minimized and virtually eliminated with common sense and goes away very quickly if it does happen, but the off axis viewing quality of the picture of an LCD will never change.
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Closed Thread OLED Technology and Flat Panels General

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