How long before the Kuro is surpassed? - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 86 Old 12-22-2009, 08:40 PM - Thread Starter
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I missed my chance to get a Kuro 500m while it was cheap and shipping to Canada is too risky, pricey and inconvenient.

Can anyone speculate on how long it will be until the other manufacturers can offer a model that has a comparable picture quality to the Kuros? Let's be realistic as well, and refrain from Pioneer romanticizing and snobbery.
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post #2 of 86 Old 12-22-2009, 08:52 PM
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There's no 2009 flat panels that can beat the Kuro. The Panny V10 and the Samsung 8500 are both nice panels but not quite on that level. Sony had an awesome product with the XBR8 so maybe they'll pull their heads out of their asses and deliver an actual high-end product.

Might be 2011 before someone can beat Pioneer contrast ratio, is what I'm thinking. 2010 seems to be all about introducing 3d to the market. Ugh I don't give a crap about 3d, not at all.
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post #3 of 86 Old 12-22-2009, 08:57 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ozymandis View Post

There's no 2009 flat panels that can beat the Kuro. The Panny V10 and the Samsung 8500 are both nice panels but not quite on that level. Sony had an awesome product with the XBR8 so maybe they'll pull their heads out of their asses and deliver an actual high-end product.

Might be 2011 before someone can beat Pioneer contrast ratio, is what I'm thinking. 2010 seems to be all about introducing 3d to the market. Ugh I don't give a crap about 3d, not at all.

thinking we might see something close to or match the kuros in another year (2011) Don't think there will be something notably better for at least 3 yrs, maybe longer
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post #4 of 86 Old 12-22-2009, 11:40 PM
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Originally Posted by Zivman View Post

thinking we might see something close to or match the kuros in another year (2011) Don't think there will be something notably better for at least 3 yrs, maybe longer

+1

Panasonic now owns the Kuro patents so they theoretically could release something better. However, most people seem to think (and I agree) that Panasonic bought the patents simply to prevent the technology from falling into a competitor's hands. I think we will see Panasonic slowly infuse some of the Kuro technology over the next few years so long as it doesn't negatively affect their bottom line. I think around 2011-2012 we will see something that matches the Kuro but not sure when something significantly better will come around.
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post #5 of 86 Old 12-23-2009, 11:24 AM
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The Olympics year of 2012 will be the magic year when finally one model made by Panasonic will surpass 9G Kuros--they'll charge out the wazoo for it though.
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post #6 of 86 Old 12-23-2009, 02:01 PM
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It'll be surpassed next year- by a $10,000 xbr 12.

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post #7 of 86 Old 12-23-2009, 03:02 PM
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If Panasonic continues their VX line then we could see something equal to the Kuro next year, and odds are we will see a prototype at CES that beats the Kuro, but we won't see anything affordable for a while.

When is Panasonic going to push out their "NEOECO" panels I saw them at the last CES? They were slated for 2010, but that may have changed since then...

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post #8 of 86 Old 12-23-2009, 03:35 PM
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Considering plasmas in general are dying out, I don't think there will ever be anything matching up to KUROs. LEDs are coming close if not matching in blacks but they still have viewing angle issues and motion issues that plasmas don't have.
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post #9 of 86 Old 12-23-2009, 03:51 PM
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In some regards, the Kuro PDPs have already been surpassed....
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post #10 of 86 Old 12-23-2009, 04:48 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jkcheng122 View Post

Considering plasmas in general are dying out, I don't think there will ever be anything matching up to KUROs. LEDs are coming close if not matching in blacks but they still have viewing angle issues and motion issues that plasmas don't have.

Exactly, why I don't think plasma is going anywhere so soon. Panasonic and Samsung are doing well for themselves with plasmas. LG is still there too, I imagine they are doing well with lesser plasmas, since they are still in the plasma game. I now Pansonic has invested a lot into plasma and they can't produce the V series fast enough for several months now.
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post #11 of 86 Old 12-23-2009, 04:51 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ozymandis View Post

There's no 2009 flat panels that can beat the Kuro. The Panny V10 and the Samsung 8500 are both nice panels but not quite on that level. Sony had an awesome product with the XBR8 so maybe they'll pull their heads out of their asses and deliver an actual high-end product.

Ahh...I think he figured this out already, that is why he asked how long it will be until the Pioneer Kuros are surpassed, rather than if there is anything better on the market now.

Quote:
Might be 2011 before someone can beat Pioneer contrast ratio, is what I'm thinking. 2010 seems to be all about introducing 3d to the market. Ugh I don't give a crap about 3d, not at all.

I basically agree. 2011 has a good chance, IMHO, for there to be a plasma that is ~equal to a Pioneer Kuro.
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post #12 of 86 Old 12-23-2009, 07:58 PM
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Should be interesting I would say there is a good chance that something will come along in 2010, and that it will be LCD based.

Samsung has Blue Phase

Sony/Sharp have UV2A

Panasonic has IPS Alpha

All 3 are next gen Panels, they should offer better viewing angles, faster response times, higher static contrast ratios, deeper blacks.

Pair one of those panels up with an improved Local Dimming LED backlight, which I am sure we will see in 2010. And I think the Kuro Elite has a good chance at being passed. I think Sony will do it with the XBR12, there used to be an XBR8 on a wall mount above a Kuro Elite at one of my local stores, and I always thought the PQ was pretty close between them.
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post #13 of 86 Old 12-24-2009, 06:04 AM
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Originally Posted by rgb32 View Post

In some regards, the Kuro PDPs have already been surpassed....

Only in Pure brightness and on/off contrast. I'd say that they still have a ways to go assuming you're referring to the 8500.

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post #14 of 86 Old 12-24-2009, 06:07 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Haelphadreous View Post

Should be interesting I would say there is a good chance that something will come along in 2010, and that it will be LCD based.

Samsung has Blue Phase

Sony/Sharp have UV2A

Panasonic has IPS Alpha

All 3 are next gen Panels, they should offer better viewing angles, faster response times, higher static contrast ratios, deeper blacks.

All of those are nice technologies but none of them has the "oomph" needed to dislodge the Kuro from top spot. However they will most definitely beat current plasmas and next years too if they don't start really innovating.

I don't expect anything big from the cost cutters over at Panasonic and Samsung couldn't really give a damn about plasma if they wanted to. Expect plasmas to be surpassed next year just not the Kuro.

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post #15 of 86 Old 12-24-2009, 02:51 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Patrick. View Post

All of those are nice technologies but none of them has the "oomph" needed to dislodge the Kuro from top spot. However they will most definitely beat current plasmas and next years too if they don't start really innovating.

I don't expect anything big from the cost cutters over at Panasonic and Samsung couldn't really give a damn about plasma if they wanted to. Expect plasmas to be surpassed next year just not the Kuro.

UV2A looks like it might just be the tech to do it. What exactly is this "oomph" you are looking for? Personally the 111FD I had was nice but had it's own set of flaws and was returned.

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post #16 of 86 Old 12-25-2009, 04:43 AM
 
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^What flaws did you have with the 111FD? The only ones are relatively minor (buzzing, which is virtually nonexistent on mine, dead pixels and DSE aka dirty screen effect). The 500M has apparently resolved the DSE problem for the most part...that only leaves the occasional buzzer and dead pixel.
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post #17 of 86 Old 12-25-2009, 11:30 AM
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Originally Posted by vinnie97 View Post

^What flaws did you have with the 111FD? The only ones are relatively minor (buzzing, which is virtually nonexistent on mine, dead pixels and DSE aka dirty screen effect). The 500M has apparently resolved the DSE problem for the most part...that only leaves the occasional buzzer and dead pixel.

I think it may be more of a preference of type, seeing as the 750 was the right set for him.

IMO, the best FP available right now is the 8500, so long as you can sit dead center. There are still areas for improvement, but it is a very impressive panel. The dimming has become much more effective which helps alleviate mura.

I am not a fan of the V10 that receives much praise around these parts. I feel that the tri-pane design limits its ability. If they move to a dual, much like the Samsung, Pioneer, and Z1, we will see them make a move toward the top.

With Pioneer out of the game, the focus has shifted to features and creating brand recognition as the "best in the game", allowing for the revenue to mass produce products for PQ in mind.

Because of this, we may not see anything resembling the trend of improvements we have experienced in this last decade in terms of pure performance in the near future. The improvements will be minimal in all aspects of PQ, and be geared more toward the efficiency of 3D and HDMI 1.4.
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post #18 of 86 Old 12-25-2009, 11:48 AM
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I assume we're just talking about black levels right?

Pioneer 9G is ~.001fL
Pioneer 8G is ~.004fL
Panasonic 12G is ~.008fL
Samsung 2009 is ~.012fL (lots of variation on these models, some lower, some higher)

I have no idea what Samsung is doing next year, but apparently Panasonic is going to be using the Z1 glass for most models next year, in addition to improving black levels, color accuracy and gamma. If I were to wager, I'd bet on seeing at least 8G Kuro performance from Panasonic next year. Maybe even 9G performance and beyond on a single high end model, similar to the Z1 this year.

I'm not interested in LCD. I don't think any LCD will ever match the look of a plasma, let alone the Kuro. Even on the very best local dimming models, the viewing angles are rubbish and the motion handling is all kinds of fail.
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post #19 of 86 Old 12-25-2009, 01:50 PM
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post #20 of 86 Old 12-25-2009, 11:47 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by vinnie97 View Post

^What flaws did you have with the 111FD? The only ones are relatively minor (buzzing, which is virtually nonexistent on mine, dead pixels and DSE aka dirty screen effect). The 500M has apparently resolved the DSE problem for the most part...that only leaves the occasional buzzer and dead pixel.

DSE was the deal breaker for me. I liked everything else about the set.

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post #21 of 86 Old 12-25-2009, 11:53 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fanaticalism View Post

I think it may be more of a preference of type, seeing as the 750 was the right set for him.

IMO, the best FP available right now is the 8500, so long as you can sit dead center. There are still areas for improvement, but it is a very impressive panel. The dimming has become much more effective which helps alleviate mura.

I am not a fan of the V10 that receives much praise around these parts. I feel that the tri-pane design limits its ability. If they move to a dual, much like the Samsung, Pioneer, and Z1, we will see them make a move toward the top.

With Pioneer out of the game, the focus has shifted to features and creating brand recognition as the "best in the game", allowing for the revenue to mass produce products for PQ in mind.

Because of this, we may not see anything resembling the trend of improvements we have experienced in this last decade in terms of pure performance in the near future. The improvements will be minimal in all aspects of PQ, and be geared more toward the efficiency of 3D and HDMI 1.4.

The 52B750 was the best available 50+ inch LCD for under $2,500.00 back in late April of this year. Hence why I bought it and kept it. Sure other sets are better but I was working within a budget. The B750 is not a perfect set but probably the best CCFL LCD ever produced. I had a 55B7100 and think it is overpriced trash. These new LCD techs will allow LCD to pull even with the Kuro.

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post #22 of 86 Old 12-26-2009, 02:14 AM
 
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Originally Posted by bpmurr View Post

DSE was the deal breaker for me. I liked everything else about the set.

Yea, I remember now. I don't blame you for a minute.

I don't know about LCD breaking "even with Kuro" claims...sure it will eventually but black levels, viewing angles and motion resolution *still* have a ways to go.
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post #23 of 86 Old 12-26-2009, 08:47 AM
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3 years ago, there was no Kuro. It's amazing how quickly this technology advances. Contrast ratios for lcd have improved by leaps and bounds.

Plasma has been slower to improve in this regard, but they haven't have had as much ground to gain. I personally am more interested in lcd just because of the way the technology improves at a quicker rate, and it will start to solve viewing angle issues (black level is pretty much caught up on the better sets).

Think about five years ago. I never thought that plasma or lcd would ever touch Sony CRTs. Now I've got a Sony lcd that's not far off from an xbr960-crazy.

When it comes to craftsmanship, I don't think you'll ever see another Kuro. Something one day will have better color and absolute blacks, but it won't ever have the quality of Pioneer.

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post #24 of 86 Old 12-26-2009, 11:54 AM
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Yeah LCD may have caught up with black level, but it it doesn't compare with motion and color... Sold off our LCD's and picked up a 42 inch 720p panasonic for the bedroom which outperformed our 120hz Sony in every way as well as a pioneer krp-600m which is just perfect in every way... Very deep blacks, you see every shade of black in dark scenes, no motion flickering, no artificial 120hz processing, absolutely no color banding... It almost looks like I could climb into the movie!!!

In fact it was the purchase of our $500 panasonic 720p 42 inch that outperformed our mid level Sony series with 120hz that convinced me to sell the Sony off and get the pioneer...
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post #25 of 86 Old 12-26-2009, 02:33 PM
 
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Originally Posted by QZ1 View Post

Exactly, why I don't think plasma is going anywhere so soon. Panasonic and Samsung are doing well for themselves with plasmas. LG is still there too, I imagine they are doing well with lesser plasmas, since they are still in the plasma game. I now Pansonic has invested a lot into plasma and they can't produce the V series fast enough for several months now.

Plasma is all but dead. There are very of them being sold in the stores these days. It reminds of the last days of RPTV's.
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post #26 of 86 Old 12-26-2009, 10:49 PM
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Originally Posted by wildpanda86 View Post

Yeah LCD may have caught up with black level, but it it doesn't compare with motion and color... Sold off our LCD's and picked up a 42 inch 720p panasonic for the bedroom which outperformed our 120hz Sony in every way as well as a pioneer krp-600m which is just perfect in every way... Very deep blacks, you see every shade of black in dark scenes, no motion flickering, no artificial 120hz processing, absolutely no color banding... It almost looks like I could climb into the movie!!!

In fact it was the purchase of our $500 panasonic 720p 42 inch that outperformed our mid level Sony series with 120hz that convinced me to sell the Sony off and get the pioneer...

Looking up some Motion Resolution tests on the XBR8 and it was resolving roughly 1000 lines of the 1080p source with the 120 hz motion compensation on. and roughly 700 with it off, for reference the 5010FD scored around 860 lines. In the test results I could find, the XBR 8 acheved 115% of NTSC color gamut compared to 108% for the Kuro and in some content the XBR 8 beat the Pioneer PRO-111FD when it came to black level in Cnet's test. Though the Pioneer won overall black level testing. Overall the edge went to the Pioneer in the compare reviews I have read and I have seen both sets side by side I wouldn't kick either of them out of my living room.

As I see it the good LCD's currently have Issues with viewing angles, some sets have issues with wonky processing for motion processing. And Bloom/Muria. Not to mention Cost for the best sets.

Plasmas have issues with Green Phosphor lag, lower maximum brightness, which is an issue if you prefer to watch under moderate or higher light. Dirty Screen Effect, Buzzing, power draw, image retention, uneven phosphor wear, if you watch a lot of letter boxing could become an issue after a few years. Heat issues, on some sets and higher power use than LCDs.

There are valid arguments on either side of the Plasma vs LCD debate. And outstanding TV's on either side as well.
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post #27 of 86 Old 12-26-2009, 11:43 PM
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I don't know if we'll ever see anything that beats the Pioneer's in plasma. The way things are going these days plasma will be dead before that happens, then I'll be forced to keep my current plasma's and CRT's until LCD gets overtaken by, well, I don't care, anything (I can't stand LCD tv's), but hopefully OLED or some type of SED tech (ok, being realistic, OLED.)
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post #28 of 86 Old 12-28-2009, 03:33 AM
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How long before the Kuro is surpassed? I'm not sure, maybe next year.

"Their new technology even surpasses Kuro from Pioneer"

http://www.hdtvinfo.eu/news/hdtv-art...lasma-tvs.html
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post #29 of 86 Old 12-31-2009, 12:48 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by eliion View Post

How long before the Kuro is surpassed? I'm not sure, maybe next year.

"Their new technology even surpasses Kuro from Pioneer"

http://www.hdtvinfo.eu/news/hdtv-art...lasma-tvs.html


Its not really a question of WHEN it's more of a question of AFFORDABILITY.
The new technology will be out sooner than most think, However the price will be prohibitive at first.
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post #30 of 86 Old 12-31-2009, 01:02 AM
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Well, way to go LG. If Panasonic is going to sit on its hands and do nothing, while simultaneously owning the rights to use Pioneers' tech, then, well, I hope they eventually perish (even though they have been responsible for keeping Plasma on the map during these last few years, as far as quality v. price).

Though, I guess I am the minority (like most of us), who still want quality in a display. We will most likely see the rise of 3D and then 4D TV, that let's you "see through time" before anyone addresses the still, glaring, PQ issues with modern flat panels.
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