240hz = Worst Invention EVER! - Page 5 - AVS Forum
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OLED Technology and Flat Panels General > 240hz = Worst Invention EVER!
Lee L's Avatar Lee L 02:37 PM 02-25-2010
Interesting, I was in Best Buy the other day and they had one of hte X-Men movies running on a Sony LCD fed by BLu-Ray running a demo disc. I had not seen that particular movie so I had to ask the guy what it was supposed to be.

THe scene was of Magneto moving the Golden Gate bridge over to Alcatraz I guess and it looked so horrible that I was like somethign someone did for a college project. I understand the effects might not be perfect, but even the parts showing close ups of peopel had a horrible computer generated effect. I have seen other X-Men movies in theaters and at home, so unless they really did this one much more horribly than the others, th eTV was doing somethign funky.

The Best Buy guy said it was the new 240 mhzprocess that made it "look so smooth you never knew it could be so good".
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spyboy's Avatar spyboy 04:04 PM 02-25-2010
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lee L View Post

Interesting, I was in Best Buy the other day and they had one of hte X-Men movies running on a Sony LCD fed by BLu-Ray running a demo disc. I had not seen that particular movie so I had to ask the guy what it was supposed to be.

THe scene was of Magneto moving the Golden Gate bridge over to Alcatraz I guess and it looked so horrible that I was like somethign someone did for a college project. I understand the effects might not be perfect, but even the parts showing close ups of peopel had a horrible computer generated effect. I have seen other X-Men movies in theaters and at home, so unless they really did this one much more horribly than the others, th eTV was doing somethign funky.

The Best Buy guy said it was the new 240 mhzprocess that made it "look so smooth you never knew it could be so good".

No matter how many times it is repeated, people continue to confuse motion blur reduction with motion smoothing.

Motion smoothing is designed to reduce the jerkiness or "judder" that occurs when film-based content is displayed on a TV - say, when a camera slowly pans across a scene. Eliminating judder can make movies look like they were shot with a video camera, an effect you might not like. On some TVs, you can control motion smoothing and the frame rate separately, but on others they're tied together.
walford's Avatar walford 05:00 PM 02-25-2010
Sharp defines their motion smoothing capability for 120Hz displays as a way to reduce 24fps judder as do some other manufacturers and they use another term to eliminate 3:2 judder which they do with 5:5 pulldowns.
Be sure and play the video links at the bottom of the following link:

http://sharp-world.com/kameyama/tech/ds_lcd/index.html
mastermaybe's Avatar mastermaybe 06:40 AM 02-26-2010
"Plasma has motion handling problems like phosphor lag, and depending on changes in content: auto brightness and color rainbowing. LCD motion handling problems are already well documented on this forum. I'd say both are inferior in this respect to the good ole CRT."

I would be willing to bet that less than 1/2 of 1% of the populace sees phosphor lag or "rainbowing" in a modern PDP.

I can't speak to the "auto brightness" aspect, as I've never noticed any fluctuations in brightness in either of my PDP's that I didn't induce myself.

I DO however, notice the ridiculous auto dimming/brightening in my two Sony LCD's, LOL.

James
Nielo TM's Avatar Nielo TM 06:19 PM 02-26-2010
Quote:
Originally Posted by spyboy View Post

No matter how many times it is repeated, people continue to confuse motion blur reduction with motion smoothing.

I can't understand it either


If we went back to 2008, then its a different story because back then the MCFI feature was unified on most systems.

So enabling 100Hz+ also enabled low-level MCFI designed to reduce/eliminate low-motion judder.

These days, they are disconnected from each other. So enabling 100Hz+ doesn't result in soap effect as low-level MCFI remains disabled.
frito's Avatar frito 01:07 PM 02-27-2010
Quote:
Originally Posted by spyboy View Post

No matter how many times it is repeated, people continue to confuse motion blur reduction with motion smoothing.

Motion smoothing is designed to reduce the jerkiness or "judder" that occurs when film-based content is displayed on a TV - say, when a camera slowly pans across a scene. Eliminating judder can make movies look like they were shot with a video camera, an effect you might not like. On some TVs, you can control motion smoothing and the frame rate separately, but on others they're tied together.

the problem is between LCD's sample and hold induced blur and pixel blur that 120/240hz when its set to just blur reduction normal film judder is about 2-5x more visible and apparent on LCD's without a motion enhancer engaged (judder reduction)

that is why they created motion enhancers to make up for this downfall LCD has and will always have as long as its playing back low frame rate content (24fps and 30fps)

these problems mostly go away to most people at 60 fps on an LCD

yes some of the latest TV's like samsungs have adjustable blur reduction and judder reduction. setting blur to max and judder to a low setting does result in an overall better picture on LCD with movies but you still get some SOE effect from it and judder on panning scenes is still more apparent than on PDP or CRT TV's

Quote:
Originally Posted by mastermaybe View Post

"Plasma has motion handling problems like phosphor lag, and depending on changes in content: auto brightness and color rainbowing. LCD motion handling problems are already well documented on this forum. I'd say both are inferior in this respect to the good ole CRT."

I would be willing to bet that less than 1/2 of 1% of the populace sees phosphor lag or "rainbowing" in a modern PDP.

I can't speak to the "auto brightness" aspect, as I've never noticed any fluctuations in brightness in either of my PDP's that I didn't induce myself.

I DO however, notice the ridiculous auto dimming/brightening in my two Sony LCD's, LOL.

James

i've yet to see phosphor lag on our Panny and i just helped a buddy setup a brand new Panny 50S1 last night, we watched a movie and played a bunch for forza on it. once again no IR and no phosphor lag/trails and the TV is brand new. still needs breaking in and its in the process of that now.

his other TV is a Samsung 46B630 and he loves the plasma. much better for gaming and motion is so smooth on games its amazing

I have seen auto brightness on our 50X1 before but only when the picture mode was all jacked up and in vivid. on standard and cinema modes with close to calibrated settings it never happens or at least if it does its not apparent to the viewer
Nielo TM's Avatar Nielo TM 03:53 PM 02-27-2010
Quote:
Originally Posted by frito View Post

the problem is between LCD's sample and hold induced blur and pixel blur that 120/240hz when its set to just blur reduction normal film judder is about 2-5x more visible and apparent on LCD's without a motion enhancer engaged (judder reduction)

.

Actually, that's not true. However, increasing motion resolution may increase the level of perceivable low-motion judder and it's not unique to LCDs.

Quote:
Originally Posted by frito View Post

that is why they created motion enhancers to make up for this downfall LCD has and will always have as long as its playing back low frame rate content (24fps and 30fps)

Actually, the low-level MCFI is nothing new. It was first used by Philips CRTs 2002/2003 under the name PixelPlus (Digital Natural Motion). Then it was adopted by InterVideo, PowerDVD, Pioneer, Sony, Sharp etc. It is not standard on most sets (including non-100Hz+)

Long story short, it existed way before 120Hz started appearing.


Quote:
Originally Posted by frito View Post

these problems mostly go away to most people at 60 fps on an LCD

yes some of the latest TV's like samsungs have adjustable blur reduction and judder reduction. setting blur to max and judder to a low setting does result in an overall better picture on LCD with movies but you still get some SOE effect from it and judder on panning scenes is still more apparent than on PDP or CRT TV's

Then you're doing something wrong. So far, I have yet to encounter such issues with LCDs.
frito's Avatar frito 09:21 PM 02-27-2010
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nielo TM View Post

.

Actually, that's not true. However, increasing motion resolution may increase the level of perceivable low-motion judder and it's not unique to LCDs.



Actually, the low-level MCFI is nothing new. It was first used by Philips CRTs 2002/2003 under the name PixelPlus (Digital Natural Motion). Then it was adopted by InterVideo, PowerDVD, Pioneer, Sony, Sharp etc. It is not standard on most sets (including non-100Hz+)

Long story short, it existed way before 120Hz started appearing.




Then you're doing something wrong. So far, I have yet to encounter such issues with LCDs.

low level MCFI is ok and helps a lot, my 60hz Sony 32XBR6 did this when it detected a 3:2 pulldown it was the best way to view movies on it and sony did not advertise the feature much but they called it 60hz motionflow

as for what i said about 120hz TV's with judder reduction turned off it is true, i've seen it on quite a few LCD TV's that i've owned and friends own if you own one you can get used to it but as soon as you watch the same movie on a plasma or CRT based display you see what your LCD was failing to do all that time.

too many people around here get used to how LCD appears to the human eye and accept it. it's a major problem with LCD's and manufactures recognize it and attempt to solve the problem with more and more motion enhancement every year.

I stumbled upon this page that has a really good photo example of LCD induced sample and hold blur at various frame rates, it goes into math formulas and other stuff that is over my head but the photo below speaks for itself



http://videoprocessing.ucsd.edu/~sta.../LCDModel.html
Nielo TM's Avatar Nielo TM 06:22 AM 02-28-2010
I am already of that fact, but it's not as bad as you portray it (sorry)

As the frame rate decreases, hold-time increases, which has its advantages and disadvantages. The same is true of motion judder as the frame rate decreases, motion judder increases.

For an example, individual frames of 60p are held for 16.7ms (1000/60), but because 60p is high-motion, movement appears continues/free-flowing to the human eye (provided there is sufficient blur). But due to the high hold-time, blur is perceived, which can be a bit of a problem. Having stated that, raw 60p without any form of blur will induce motion judder as there isn't enough frames to fool the human eye into believing the motion is truly continues. So directors add blur intentionality by using lower shutter-speed or during post-production.

Contents filmed in 24p have hold-time of 41.7ms, which of cause increases the perception of blur. However, 24p also has visible motion judder as it is too low to induce continue motion hence the term low-motion. The blur caused by high hold-time helps to induce smoother transition between the frames thus enabling softer motion.


This is only the tip and there's a lot more to get into. If you have a X360, send me a party invite if wish to discuss further.
geister's Avatar geister 01:38 PM 03-03-2010
Quote:
Originally Posted by HogPilot View Post

Film's resolution and "bit depth" has always far outpaced that of consumer video storage mediums. If you're talking about old films, then HD is as closer reproduction than any previous medium.

And if you truly want to watch a movie as the "director intended," you'd have a 35mm projector with original prints like coldmachine and other lucky few do. For us mere mortals, optical disc and front projectors are the closest we can get.

HD is a closer reproduction of the actual film, but most past directors created their films with the understanding that they would be viewed in theaters or on 4:3 CRT (then more recently on larger wide screen plasma and LCDs). When making their films, SD was a given in the artistic process. (You may notice how many flaws show up in older television programs and films because no one ever expected these flaws to be seen).
Brimstone-1's Avatar Brimstone-1 02:51 PM 03-03-2010
Quote:


As the frame rate decreases, hold-time increases, which has its advantages and disadvantages. The same is true of motion judder as the frame rate decreases, motion judder increases.

For an example, individual frames of 60p are held for 16.7ms (1000/60), but because 60p is high-motion, movement appears continues/free-flowing to the human eye (provided there is sufficient blur). But due to the high hold-time, blur is perceived, which can be a bit of a problem. Having stated that, raw 60p without any form of blur will induce motion judder as there isn't enough frames to fool the human eye into believing the motion is truly continues. So directors add blur intentionality by using lower shutter-speed or during post-production.


What?


Most displays are based around 60hz.


The source of the signal can be 24hz as with DVD & Blu-Ray or 60hz with a Sports channel like ESPN (720p@60hz).


On a LCD the hold time remains the same with both 24hz and 60hz. The difference is frames will be repeated with 24hz content.



A 60hz LCD has a hold time of 16.6ms
A 120hz LCD has a hold time of 8.3ms.



ESPN HD (720p) sport broadcasts look terrific and they are at 60 frames per second.
Nielo TM's Avatar Nielo TM 11:46 PM 03-03-2010
Actually no, that's no how AM based panels function. They have no dim periods between frames. So frame repeat is the same is displaying static image, which was why MCFI was deployed.
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