Pioneer 500M vs. Samsung 8500 LED pictures thread... - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 486 Old 04-15-2010, 07:18 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Pioneer 500M on top
Samsung B860 on bottom left
Samsung 8500 LED on bottom right

More pics to follow....

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post #2 of 486 Old 04-15-2010, 09:04 PM
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It's amazing how much darker the Samsung LCD's screen material is.
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post #3 of 486 Old 04-15-2010, 11:43 PM
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Originally Posted by Ozymandis View Post

It's amazing how much darker the Samsung LCD's screen material is.

Ya, especially when there's not a flash directly shot at it.
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post #4 of 486 Old 04-16-2010, 12:31 AM
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I really hope people don't start trying to draw conclusions about which tv/technology has better PQ based on pictures posted in this or any other thread. Screens from different tvs react very differently to the same camera flash and the resulting pictures aren't an accurate comparison at all of the PQ of the various tvs. Obviously, the best way to judge is to view the (calibrated) tvs side-by-side, in person, with the same source signal under lighting conditions that mimic those of where the tv will actually be used.
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post #5 of 486 Old 04-16-2010, 12:49 AM
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Link to the old thread (where he got boo'ed to oblivion for his inaccurate comparisons and conclusions): http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...1236002&page=8

The salient points:
  • He has the display directly opposite a 10' x 4.5' window with several other windows in the room.
  • He has the flash aimed directly at the KRP. You can see a little bit of it in the top of the Samsung LED that he claims is much better. The reflection would be very similarly bad if he took the picture the same way.
  • He claims the KRP "washes out to grey, more like a greyhound" which is factually false. Like all things, there's a breakpoint above which PQ degrades. Most rooms with the KRP placed in a normal position and with reasonable lighting adjustments will look fine with the lights on or light coming in behind or a ways to the side.
  • He claims and will claim most people have a similar viewing environment to him and this is false. Most people do not place their tv's directly opposite a window and the KRP will hold up fine and maintain deep blacks in normal conditions. In a grossly oversaturated environment LED's will look better, but it's far better to make some minor placement adjustments than deal with the issues inherent to LCD tech (blooming, poor viewing angles, etc...).
  • He decided to make a new thread most likely because of all the other KRP owners who do not have their sets placed in locations that will cause the maximum light interference possible as he does who posted in the thread objecting to his application of an unrealistic viewing environment to all viewing environments/more normal viewing environments.
  • He refuses to make any serious placement or lighting adjustments in order to put the KRP in an environment that's not beyond it's tolerance point and most other displays tolerance point. It should be noted that I and many, many other people would not even bother watching any set with reflections that bad in the location he has it. His pictures show that the LED does not wash out in an extremely harsh lighting environment, well beyond anything most people will subject their tv's or their eyes to.
  • Other users (myself included) have made recommendations for things he can try to fix his lighting arrangement, a big one being placing the tv so that daylight/sunlight is behind it or at a minor enough angle to it that it's no longer an issue (and actually potentially enhances the blacks - google bias lighting for more info). I also recommended ideas such as changing location and using light shields on the sides if necessary to block out extraneous glare. He has no intention of changing the placement, which he's entitled to since it's his house and he should enjoy whatever set he decides to keep there as much as possible.
  • It is unlikely he will be realistic and respect that his viewing environment is way out what most people would consider normal. Common sense dictates you don't place a tv directly in front of a window. He insists on comparing the tv's in this environment and claiming that the KRP only looks good in a pitch black/dim environment and quickly washes out in daylight. He neglects that most of us actually do watch tv with the lights on and with some windows open as well, but make sensible placement choices so that we get the best possible picture instead of placing it directly in front of a window the size of a wall.
  • Lighting is not a dichotomy between bright and dark as he implies, but a scale. The KRP only washes out after its max light tolerance threshold above which the filters can't help it. With sensible placement it handles normal room lighting and some daylight just fine without washing out or losing its black levels. Placing it directly in front of a window will cause washout as with most displays.
  • I recommended he change his thread title to something less misleading, such as "KRP500M vs B860 vs 8500 for a very bright lighting environment". Instead he created a new thread instead of changing his title to something more honest or making a good faith effort to try the KRP in a different, more normal viewing location with his room and with light shields next to it if necessary.
  • I and most other KRP owners or other posters from the old thread are not suggesting the Samsung LED is a terrible display, but to claim it's better than a KRP based on a technicality especially when that technicality is absolutely horrendous and unreasonable placement/lighting is ridiculous. Being better in a single, abnormal viewing environment does not automatically make a display better in all viewing environments. Just like the Samsung LED not being a KRP does not make it a terrible or worthless display. It's not as good in the pricerange, but it's still a nice set if you don't mind the standard issues inherent to LED/LCD's under $10k.
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post #6 of 486 Old 04-16-2010, 10:32 AM
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Originally Posted by powertoold View Post

Ya, especially when there's not a flash directly shot at it.

Haha true. But having seen both, the 500M's screen material is much lighter. It's lighter than Panasonic's too.

After reading that thread, I feel noticeably dumber. What's up with people doing critical viewing during the day time? Is this AVS or the Soap Network board?

I looked at the 8500. Two things stuck out immediately- black levels on the 500M are just as good unless you're talking a pure black screen, and they are expensive. Oh but I forgot. Since this is the Soap Network board, we need our sets to have Soap Opera Effect

Oh, I got to quote something from the other thread:

Quote:


Actually it's the other way around. The Pioneer Kuro fanboys always neglect to mention that they only have the deepest blacks out there when the room is darkened. They always do their shootouts in the complete dark to favor the plasma.

I don't think it's ever been a secret on AVS that if you have a window across from your TV, an LCD will handle the direct light better. I care about the absolute best image quality. My 500M is in a game room in my basement with a blacked-out window. An 8500 will look slightly worse here, and for much more money... I paid 1700 bucks for my 500M, and an 8500 was about twice that.

I'm not dissing the 8500. It is a very nice display, if it didn't have lag it would be an awesome set for me as a gamer. I don't really like the blooming but I do like the brightness. Also, my Kuro buzzes, so what I get out of it now in brightness is as much as I'll be able to get (no ISF patch for me).
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post #7 of 486 Old 04-16-2010, 10:46 AM
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When I had a 5020 Kuro I was surprised by just how much it washed out with just one light on in the room. Those deep blacks just disappeared into a dark grey. Every plasma that I have owned has done this, it is just part of the tech. The Kuro was never as bad as that image, a bit darker than the Samsung in that image. (My current Smasung plasma gets slightly greyer than the Kuro in that image with just one light on) The Kuro was never unwatchable but it did loose those deep blacks.

As for the LCDs, I've owned both semigloss and full gloss LCDs, and both had weaknesses. The semigloss sets never looked black, they always looked washed out in some way. Glare was never an issue however. The full gloss sets looked very black, just like that image, so long as there was a decent amount of light in the room (my single room light was enough) but man did those things have some bad glare with even one light on in the room. (my current Samsung Plasma is nearly as reflective for some reason, I blame it on their AR coating that preserves blacks but doesn't cut glare)

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post #8 of 486 Old 04-16-2010, 10:47 AM - Thread Starter
 
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Makes no difference wiseguy.

About an hour before sunset last night I had sunlight shining directly toward the screen and the 8500 LED was powering right through that light, looking great. I used to have to scramble to close the blinds in the past with my plasmas. Not needed with the 8500.

As everyone can see (including you naysayers), even if I shoot a flash directly at the 8500 at close range it does not wash out like the plasma. It stays very black.

P.S. Sorry bout the fingerprints (I have been moving these displays around a lot).

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post #9 of 486 Old 04-16-2010, 11:01 AM
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good grief.

put on your 8500 sweat-bands.

Very important point for tools who are in the business of shooting their televisions with a photo-flash, staring at them while they're off, or placing them in direct sunlight.

brilliant.

Perhaps tomorrow I'll post a pic of my 6020 in clear sunshine in my SE/SW exposed living room at high noon to show everyone how "unwatchable" a KURO is during broad daylight.

You can't make this stuff up.

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Me: "Yeah, a case of Diet Mountain Dew walking across my living room."

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post #10 of 486 Old 04-16-2010, 11:13 AM - Thread Starter
 
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I did an experiment late last night. I waited until the room was dark and then put on a bunch of dark content on both displays, at the same time (using the HDMI splitter): things with lots of black content, black bars, dim scenes, etc.

With the lights off and it totally dark, the 500M had darker letterbox black bars and sidebars, and generally looked a bit darker on scenes where the Kuro typically looks a bit darker than the 8500. Of course on many scenes that are not shadowy or have less black in them, the 8500 can match the Kuro. And of course on some scenes even in the dark the 8500 looks much darker, like full-screen blacks and black screens with white lettering in the center for credits and such, because all the surrounding LED's totally shut-off.

Then I turned on a lamp that was 12-14 feet away, and off to the side where it was not reflecting directly on the screens. It is a three-way incandescent bulb that has 50, 100, and 150 watts. I turned it on the lowest setting, 50 watts, and whadda ya know the blacks lightened up considerably on the Kuro, but did not phase the 8500 one bit.

The black bars which used to be bezel black and deeper than those on the 8500 suddenly became lighter and the bars on the 8500 looked jet black. The same thing with other content showing lots of black on the screen.

One little measly 50 watt lamp (with a cloth lamp shade softening the light) was enough to wash out the Kuro and make the blacks lighten up quite visibly.

Now, normally in the evening I would place a bias light behind the Kuro if I wanted some light in the room while I was eating my food or something, so placement of light is critical. The Kuro did not wash out when the light was shining from behind the screen.

It is critical to keep light off the Kuro screen for it to have the world-class blacks that people brag about so much.

The point of this experiment is to show that when it's daylight (especially this time of year when the days are growing long and bright) there is a lot of light reflecting around the room, and it will wash out your Kuro.

All you have to do is walk up to your Kuro (with it shut off) at various times during the day and night and examine the screen. Does the screen look as black as the bezel, or does the screen look a lighter shade of gray compared to the bezel? In the dark the screen looks about as dark as the bezel, and with a bias light behind the Kuro it still looks as dark as the bezel. That is why the blacks are the best of class when the lights are totally off, or you have a little bit of light shining behind the Kuro.

But if your screen is not looking bezel black when you walk up to your Kuro when it is off, it will look no darker when you turn it on. You have some washout taking place, and your blacks will be less than ideal.

As you can see from the pics above, there is no light that phases the 8500. It looks inky jet-black under any ambient light. That is why the 8500 maintains its jet-black look all day long until after the sun sets and it grows dark. Then the Kuro starts to slowly but surely darken enough to match the 8500, and then when it is totally dark the Kuro beats the 8500 on some dark scenes and black bars.
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post #11 of 486 Old 04-16-2010, 11:18 AM
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^ yeah, ok. All the experts are wrong and you're right. sigh.

CNET (among others):

"the Samsung UNB8500 delivers the second-deepest black levels of any display we've ever tested, after the Pioneer Kuro plasma from 2008."

"Black level: When seen from the sweet spot directly in front of the TV, the black levels of the Samsung UNB8500 series were the darkest and most realistic of any display in our lineup, with the exception of the Pioneer plasma."

"Like other local dimming LED-based LCDs we've tested, the 8500 evinced some "blooming," where a brighter object will bleed into a darker adjacent area"

"Color accuracy: The UNB8500 scored very well in this category, albeit not up to the standards of our reference Kuro"

"Uniformity: The biggest weakness of LED-based LCDs comes in the arena of off-angle viewing, and the 8500 follows suit. When we moved just one couch cushion to either side, the blacks lightened considerably, becoming brighter, more washed-out, and less realistic, and taking the rest of the image quality down with them."

"Bright lighting: When we turned up the lights and opened the shades in our testing facility, it became obvious that the 8500's glossy screen behaved much like those of other Samsung sets. It reflected significantly more ambient light than the matte-screened Sony and LG LCDs, or even than either of the plasmas."

yeah. Noticing a trend here?

To boot:

Motions handling: Kuro.
Off Axis image quality: Kuro.

No blooming.
No flashlights.
No clouding.

James

Actual phone call (see pic to left):

 

Tech (responding to laughter): "I'm sorry sir, did I miss something?"

Me: "Yeah, a case of Diet Mountain Dew walking across my living room."

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post #12 of 486 Old 04-16-2010, 11:23 AM
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Even the glossy CCFL LCDs maintain those same level of blacks with the lights on. They also have better viewing angles, the only advantage that the LED backlit sets truly have over the CCFL sets is in a completly dark room head on. I have yet to see any reason to buy an LED based LCD over a CCFL set.

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post #13 of 486 Old 04-16-2010, 11:42 AM - Thread Starter
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Marty1781 View Post

I really hope people don't start trying to draw conclusions about which tv/technology has better PQ based on pictures posted in this or any other thread. Screens from different tvs react very differently to the same camera flash and the resulting pictures aren't an accurate comparison at all of the PQ of the various tvs. Obviously, the best way to judge is to view the (calibrated) tvs side-by-side, in person, with the same source signal under lighting conditions that mimic those of where the tv will actually be used.

1) I have had the displays side by side. I have also had them one right above the other. Then I switched them with the 8500 on top and the 500M on the bottom.

2) Obviously I am viewing them in person.

3) I have an HDMI splitter so I am feeding them the exact same source signal simultaneously. SDTV, HDTV, 1080p Blu Ray, DVD, test patterns, etc.

4) I have been testing the displays under all lighting conditions, from sunny to completely black, with the blinds open and closed, etc. Obviously I am testing these to see which works best for my environment, which is less than ideal. My environment varies quite a bit. Sometimes I watch in total darkness, but sometimes it is very sunny out and bright in the room, and of course there is everything in between.

The 8500 is clearly a better daytime display. The 500M cannot look as good with even a modest amount of daylight in the room. In the dark the 500M is the superior display, but it is not a dramatic difference like with the B860. The 500M completely destroys the 860 in a dark room. The 8500 is clearly better than the 860 in a dark room too. The 8500 is competitive with the 500M in a dark room, but still does fall short.

The 500M and 8500 are much closer to each other in a dark room than either of them are to the B860.

The B860 does have a more accurate picture prior to calibration when both Samungs are in movie mode, and of course has the advantage over the 8500 in viewing angles and better screen uniformity. Also the 8500, being an LED backlit, will get tripped up on the occasional scene like a star-field. It will not show as many faint stars, or if you do adjust the 8500 so it will show all the stars, the black levels of the whole scene will rise and you can get some screen uniformity issues like more clouding and haloing cropping up. I think it's better to lose a few stars and have a deep black picture without any clouding or haze. But with the 500M you do not have to make this compromise, so this is just one reason why it is a superior solution for watching in the dark.
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post #14 of 486 Old 04-16-2010, 11:55 AM - Thread Starter
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dlplover View Post

Link to the old thread (where he got boo'ed to oblivion for his inaccurate comparisons and conclusions): http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...1236002&page=8

The salient points:[list][*]He has the display directly opposite a 10' x 4.5' window with several other windows in the room.

You are too funny. Actually, only two other windows, not several. They are off to the side and above the front door. It is that type of glass with a rough bumpy pattern for privacy purposes, so they are not a clear window that lets all the light in. I think it was popular in the late 60's and 70's. It's on the agenda to be replaced, but I need to stop buying TV's first!

Here is a pic of it:

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Originally Posted by dlplover View Post

[*]He has the flash aimed directly at the KRP. You can see a little bit of it in the top of the Samsung LED that he claims is much better. The reflection would be very similarly bad if he took the picture the same way.

I already have disproven your foolish talk by taking a pic with the flash aimed directly at the 8500 at close range. No light fazes it. The only thing you have to do is minimize reflections, which only are bothersome on screens with lots of black. Of course if you sit directly in front of the 500M it looks like a mirror too, so the whole point is to minimize reflections for either display. The 8500 can get much brighter than the 500M and overpower the reflections except when there is a lot of black content on the screen. Then both the plasma and the 8500 look like a mirror. Except the 500M will look like a grayish mirror while the 8500 will look like a jet-black one.
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post #16 of 486 Old 04-16-2010, 12:01 PM
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Originally Posted by PENDRAG0ON View Post

Even the glossy CCFL LCDs maintain those same level of blacks with the lights on. They also have better viewing angles, the only advantage that the LED backlit sets truly have over the CCFL sets is in a completly dark room head on. I have yet to see any reason to buy an LED based LCD over a CCFL set.

I agree, I see no reason to buy a LED LCD over a Plasma or a good CCFL IPS TV, depending on viewing environment and preference.
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post #17 of 486 Old 04-16-2010, 12:12 PM
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Originally Posted by DocuMaker View Post


4) I have been testing the displays under all lighting conditions, from sunny to completely black, with the blinds open and closed, etc. Obviously I am testing these to see which works best for my environment, which is less than ideal. My environment varies quite a bit. Sometimes I watch in total darkness, but sometimes it is very sunny out and bright in the room, and of course there is everything in between.

False. You are testing the displays under dark lighting conditions and significantly saturated conditions. You're testing at two ends of a spectrum and applying it to the entire spectrum. The ends of the spectrum are typically a range not just one brightness level, but you're going from extremely bright to even brighter or dark to very dark and ignoring everything in between. You have a very bright room and you either have to make adjustments for that via placement and finding ways to block out excess light from hitting the panel or find a display that works in your viewing environment (having the window directly shining on the display can't be helping anything). The LED will work better directly opposite the window as long as you're on-axes, but the reflections would rule out any display in that location in my book. If it works for you I'm happy, but it in no way shape or form makes it better than a KRP simply because it's better in one environment.
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post #18 of 486 Old 04-16-2010, 12:16 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dlplover View Post

[*]He claims the KRP "washes out to grey, more like a greyhound" which is factually false. Like all things, there's a breakpoint above which PQ degrades. Most rooms with the KRP placed in a normal position and with reasonable lighting adjustments will look fine with the lights on or light coming in behind or a ways to the side.

We already covered this in the other thread. I acknowledged that the Kuro will look "fine". I never said it is unwatchable. But the 8500 looks excellent! Do people pay thousands of dollars for Kuros to look just "fine"? There is a difference between fine and excellent. The Kuro looks excellent in the dark.

Throughout the day (in my environment) the 500M looked no different than a B860. I had to wait until dusk fell and darkness arrived for the 500M to start revealing its deeper blacks. When it did it was quite dramatic. The 500M has like 20 times deeper blacks than the 860. But you wouldn't know it throughout the day, because they both have similar filters (see the pic above) and they both immediately start to wash out under any kind of light reflcting off the front of the screen. Even a 50 watt lamp 14 feet away will lighten the blacks on a plasma noticeably. You have to be careful and make sure the light is only BEHIND the plasma only or aiming from the ceiling away from it, and it must be not too bright to reflect off the walls and bounce back toward the screen. If you have a pristine environment like that, then fine. Either your Kuro must be in the basement or a HT room. Or perhaps some people like to close all the blinds or curtains and have their living room gloomy and dreary when they watch TV during daylight hours. Soon it will be daylight until well after 9 PM.

Even one 50 watt lamp with a shade over it at 12-14 feet away was enough to make the Kuro have lighter black bars than the 8500 on a widescreen movie. Sure, one can be strategic about how they place the artificial lighting in their room. But not everyone lives in a cave and has black walls and blackout curtains in their living room, and not everyone wants to hunker down in the dark to watch a ball game on a sunny saturday afternoon. With the 8500 you can have an excellent picture while the sun is shining and the birds are chirping and the shades are open.

I've answered the first three. I'm not going to bother with the rest...
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post #19 of 486 Old 04-16-2010, 12:33 PM
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A cave with blackout curtains? Right? There you are again insinuating that anyone who doesn't have a viewing environment as extreme as yours that overpowers most displays (which frankly should be a common sense tip-off that you're doing something wrong) is some kind of goth vampire who's skin gets burned by having the lights on or having any daylight. With tv's smart placement is key. You're doing the equivalent of driving a car into a lake and complaining that it doesn't float.
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post #20 of 486 Old 04-16-2010, 12:41 PM
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Originally Posted by DocuMaker View Post

We already covered this in the other thread. I acknowledged that the Kuro will look "fine". I never said it is unwatchable. But the 8500 looks excellent! Do people pay thousands of dollars for Kuros to look just "fine"? There is a difference between fine and excellent. The Kuro looks excellent in the dark.

Throughout the day (in my environment) the 500M looked no different than a B860. I had to wait until dusk fell and darkness arrived for the 500M to start revealing its deeper blacks. When it did it was quite dramatic. The 500M has like 20 times deeper blacks than the 860. But you wouldn't know it throughout the day, because they both have similar filters (see the pic above) and they both immediately start to wash out under any kind of light reflcting off the front of the screen. Even a 50 watt lamp 14 feet away will lighten the blacks on a plasma noticeably. You have to be careful and make sure the light is only BEHIND the plasma only or aiming from the ceiling away from it, and it must be not too bright to reflect off the walls and bounce back toward the screen. If you have a pristine environment like that, then fine. Either your Kuro must be in the basement or a HT room. Or perhaps some people like to close all the blinds or curtains and have their living room gloomy and dreary when they watch TV during daylight hours. Soon it will be daylight until well after 9 PM.

Even one 50 watt lamp with a shade over it at 12-14 feet away was enough to make the Kuro have lighter black bars than the 8500 on a widescreen movie. Sure, one can be strategic about how they place the artificial lighting in their room. But not everyone lives in a cave and has black walls and blackout curtains in their living room, and not everyone wants to hunker down in the dark to watch a ball game on a sunny saturday afternoon. With the 8500 you can have an excellent picture while the sun is shining and the birds are chirping and the shades are open.

I've answered the first three. I'm not going to bother with the rest...

LOL. Yeah, watch how I "hunker down" to watch the ball game tomorrow. I'll post pics and you can tell me how reality lies.


James

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Tech (responding to laughter): "I'm sorry sir, did I miss something?"

Me: "Yeah, a case of Diet Mountain Dew walking across my living room."

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post #21 of 486 Old 04-16-2010, 12:49 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Originally Posted by Ozymandis View Post

After reading that thread, I feel noticeably dumber. What's up with people doing critical viewing during the day time? Is this AVS or the Soap Network board?

What a silly comment. Did people buy their Kuros to conduct critical viewing tests under sterile conditions? Or did they buy their Kuros to enjoy a fantastic picture? Are you saying it is ridiculous to make judgments about how the Kuro looks during the day, and we should only make assesments about how it looks after dark? or after someone draws some thick black velvety curtains? Does anyone have a wife that likes to read a book or do a crossword puzzle in her chair or on the couch while you watch TV? Does she turn on a lamp while she reads? That lamp better not be anywhere in front of your plasma screen (even if it's off to the side so there are no reflections) or the black levels just deteriorated. You better install some track lighting in your ceiling so you can aim a light right down in her lap and away from the screen.

Many people do not watch their display in a sterile environment. So it only makes sense that people should not only review them in a sterile environment, but in the type of environment in which they will be viewing.

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I looked at the 8500. Two things stuck out immediately- black levels on the 500M are just as good unless you're talking a pure black screen, and they are expensive.

Kuros are expensive too. I waited patiently until I found excellent deals on both. Second of all, that's not true that only on pure black screens is the 8500 blacker. Any screen where there is a large solid patch of black, with some lighter content concentrated in one area, and the 8500 looks much blacker because all the LED's shut off. For example, when movies show credits at the beginning with white lettering in the center. There are other times with real content and not just all black screens or credits where the 8500 looks darker, but I concede that it is only occasional and not frequent. Many times, since the content is often mixed with bright and dark, the black levels look very similar on both and you'd be hard pressed to tell the difference. But on letterbox bars for widescreen movies the Kuro shows deeper bars, and on certain dim shadow scenes with a low-APL the Kuro does prove that its blacks are a bit deeper, and occasionally you can see a bit extra shadow detail on the 500M as well. The 500M is a superior totally dark room display, especially for watching movies with lots of shadowy scenes and ones with black bars. But on full screen content in the dark where there are no black bars, the 8500 usually keeps up with the 500M and there is hardly any difference. Occasionally the 500M will show why plasma self-emissive technology is superior for dark room viewing, but it's not dramatic.

It's not the black levels that are the issue for me on the 8500 in the dark. They are plenty deep usually and satisfying. The issue with the 8500 is that you become much more sensitive to blooming/haloing and off-axis viewing in the total darkness. You can lean way over to one side or the other and toss your head back and forth, and if you are paying close attention you can see slight shifts in brightness on the opposite side of the screen. All of this is not an issue with some light in the room. For people that always watch movies with lights on, the 8500 will be great.

For people that like to watch movies with no light on in total darkness (myself), the 500M is a better display for that.


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Oh but I forgot. Since this is the Soap Network board, we need our sets to have Soap Opera Effect

Another silly comment. The AMP on the Samsung gives it a big advantage over the Pioneer. The beauty of it is you can turn it off. The "soap" effect makes many programs look much more enjoyable on the Samsung, like Planet Earth for example.

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I don't think it's ever been a secret on AVS that if you have a window across from your TV, an LCD will handle the direct light better. I care about the absolute best image quality. My 500M is in a game room in my basement with a blacked-out window. An 8500 will look slightly worse here, and for much more money... I paid 1700 bucks for my 500M, and an 8500 was about twice that.

If you have a totally blacked out room you like to watch in all the time, then yes, the 500M will work perfect. I bet many people who own plasmas do not have this situation though. I bet many people have them in living rooms or family rooms where there are windows or they have family members that like to have the lights on when they watch. I paid less than $1700 for both the 500M and the 46 inch 8500. I paid less for the 8500 than I paid for the 500M. Finding a deal on a 55 incher may be harder. I will have to be patient.

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I'm not dissing the 8500. It is a very nice display, if it didn't have lag it would be an awesome set for me as a gamer.

Yes, I will admit that all that processing does introduce some lag. But I never game, so that is irrelevant for me. Others make game mode work for them, but I have no knowledge about this.

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I don't really like the blooming but I do like the brightness.

I don't like the blooming on the 8500 either. That is why it is not as good as the 500M in the dark. However in ambient light you don't notice the blooming. It really is only noticeable (and only sometimes mildly distracting) in a dark room. During the day you almost never notice blooming, unless you go to an extreme off-axis.

Further, I do not like to see phosphor trails on my 500M. So maybe the 8500 is laggy for games, and has some mild blooming on certain scenes, but seeing phosphor trails on the 500M almost balances out the negative effects of blooming. The phosphor lag and the extra noise in the picture are the only two real downsides to the Kuro in the dark.

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Also, my Kuro buzzes, so what I get out of it now in brightness is as much as I'll be able to get (no ISF patch for me).

You can activate ISF modes for free now, thanks to xsiv4ce. You don't have to go through all the hassle of buying serial cables and emailing serial numbers and paypal accounts and such to get ControlCal. I think the hassle of it all bothered me more than paying the $100, since I don't have an active Paypal account. Search the plasma forum on how to do this.
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post #22 of 486 Old 04-16-2010, 12:56 PM
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Originally Posted by DocuMaker View Post

It's not the black levels that are the issue for me on the 8500 in the dark. They are plenty deep usually and satisfying. The issue with the 8500 is that you become much more sensitive to blooming/haloing and off-axis viewing in the total darkness. You can lean way over to one side or the other and toss your head back and forth, and if you are paying close attention you can see slight shifts in brightness on the opposite side of the screen. All of this is not an issue with some light in the room. For people that always watch movies with lights on, the 8500 will be great.

For people that like to watch movies with no light on in total darkness (myself), the 500M is a better display for that.

If you are going to have even one light on, then you might as well just get a 55c630 for less than half the price, the LED local dimming of the 8500 is only a benefit in a very dark room.

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Originally Posted by PENDRAG0ON View Post

If you are going to have even one light on, then you might as well just get a 55c630 for less than half the price, the LED local dimming of the 8500 is only a benefit in a very dark room.

Agreed. Most of the glossy-screened Samsungs look very similar to eachother in the daytime - both LED and CCFL - as they share the same ultra-black coating on the screen.

However, the 8500 does look good in the dark, so if you demand excellent bright room viewing and very good dark room viewing, it offers a good balance.

My critical viewing is done in a dim/dark room, so the 500M suits me better. It could stand to look a bit better during the day, but it certainly doesn't look poor or even mediocre by any stretch in my room, and I can still maintain a bright room without direct sources of light hitting the screen.
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Can we now do the same 3-way comparison to determine which TV has that horrible "soap opera" effect, especially when watching film content?
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post #25 of 486 Old 04-16-2010, 02:43 PM
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Originally Posted by tbird8450 View Post

Agreed. Most of the glossy-screened Samsungs look very similar to eachother in the daytime - both LED and CCFL - as they share the same ultra-black coating on the screen.

However, the 8500 does look good in the dark, so if you demand excellent bright room viewing and very good dark room viewing, it offers a good balance.

My critical viewing is done in a dim/dark room, so the 500M suits me better. It could stand to look a bit better during the day, but it certainly doesn't look poor or even mediocre by any stretch in my room, and I can still maintain a bright room without direct sources of light hitting the screen.

Exactly, Documaker repeatedly has made the claim that the KRP500M washes out immediately and looks bad in anything other than "pitch black" or "low light" or . Most of us do daytime watching as well and do not live in caves or have our walls painted black, but then we also don't put our displays directly facing a large window.
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Originally Posted by mastermaybe View Post

^ yeah, ok. All the experts are wrong and you're right. sigh.

CNET (among others):

You're exposed as a fanboy who has no objectivity whatsoever. You conveniently cherry-picked selections and left out important parts that don't suit your argument. CNET has left out a few important points too.

Quote:


"the Samsung UNB8500 delivers the second-deepest black levels of any display we've ever tested, after the Pioneer Kuro plasma from 2008."

Pretty much what I've been saying as well, except CNET should qualify that you MUST have a totally light-controlled room. How convenient that they left that part out of their review. If you have any light in front of the Pioneer reflecting off the screen, even just a meager amount of artificial light, the black level advantages rapidly EVAPORATE and the 8500 looks deeper.

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"Black level: When seen from the sweet spot directly in front of the TV, the black levels of the Samsung UNB8500 series were the darkest and most realistic of any display in our lineup, with the exception of the Pioneer plasma."

Pretty much also what I've been saying. Once again, he is only talking about in a dark room, with little to no light reflecting off the front of the screen.

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"Like other local dimming LED-based LCDs we've tested, the 8500 evinced some "blooming," where a brighter object will bleed into a darker adjacent area"

Everyone knows this. But where does David talk about the phosphor trails that can be seen on the plasmas, including the Pioneer Kuro? If David is going to criticize the 8500 and all local-dimming LED's for blooming, then he ought to talk about the phosphor trails he should be noticing on the plasmas. He never mentions line-bleed on plasmas either, which admittedly are rarely distracting on the Kuros, but not totally non-existent.

Quote:


"Color accuracy: The UNB8500 scored very well in this category, albeit not up to the standards of our reference Kuro"

Well, my 8500 has not been professionaly calibrated, but I acknowledge that it does need some work. But when he says (after calibration) that the 8500 scores "very well," what he is saying is that 98% of the public wouldn't be able to recognize or care about the minute differences in color accuracy.

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"Uniformity: The biggest weakness of LED-based LCDs comes in the arena of off-angle viewing, and the 8500 follows suit. When we moved just one couch cushion to either side, the blacks lightened considerably, becoming brighter, more washed-out, and less realistic, and taking the rest of the image quality down with them."

Why oh why did David not talk about the biggest weakness of plasmas? Why didn't he mention that even one lamp in front of your plasma (let's forget natural light for a moment which is infinitely brighter) washes out the blacks on those? The problem here is what I have complained about CNET reviews on multiple occasions now. They conduct all their testing in sterile environments and describe all their findings which are found in sterile dark rooms. With ambient light in the room, the 8500 does not wash out by simply moving one seat cushion. He is exaggerating when he talks about the whole image quality going down and washing out and such in the dark. It's obvious that David is a plasma fanboy at heart. If he really wanted to do his readers a service, he would tell them how easily plasmas washout, no matter if you are front-and center or off to the side, and how the image quality went right down in the daylight on the plasmas like he claims it does on the LED's (in the dark). All you need is some light on in the room, in front of the display or enough of it reflecting off the walls and the image quality erodes on a plasma. In brighter daylight conditions you can sit quite a ways farther than one seat cushion to the side of the 8500 and it will hold its contrast ten times better than the plasma. The 8500 looks much better even a reasonable amount off-axis in the day than the Kuro, save for a bit of color washout, which can be remedied by simply bumping up the color several clicks. You can also dial down the brightness a few clicks as well, to take care of any lightening of black levels.

Pay attention. These rising or elevated black levels and washout and increased brightness that David mentions because you're off-angle MAKES LITTLE DIFFERENCE in brighter rooms, because the ambient light is much greater than the MLL on the 8500, even after it rises and the contrast falls off when you move a bit off-axis. So the blacks still look jet black even off-angle, because the filter is jet black, and MLL doesn't come into play except in dark rooms. The Kuro looks gray no matter where you sit the more light that comes into the room, because the screen washes-out to a greenish-gray on the plasma, and the contrast falls precipitously. Too bad David conveniently leaves that part out of his man-cave reviews.

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"Bright lighting: When we turned up the lights and opened the shades in our testing facility, it became obvious that the 8500's glossy screen behaved much like those of other Samsung sets. It reflected significantly more ambient light than the matte-screened Sony and LG LCDs, or even than either of the plasmas."

yeah. Noticing a trend here?

Yes, I am noticing a trend. I notice you are a disingenuous fanboy and your comments are not worth paying attention to. You DELIBERATELY left out the very next part of what he said in that paragraph, which unfortunately with David is just an afterthought. Apparently David believes everyone is like him and watches 1080p BD's in a man-cave like he does for his reviews.

"On the flipside the Samsung was definitely superior to the plasmas, and to the matte LCDs to a much lesser extent, at preserving black levels and contrast under bright lighting."

There you have it. One little sentence about how the superior contrast and superior black levels erodes on even the Kuro plasmas under bright lighting. It even erodes under a 50 watt lamp. But David is obviously not interested much in any of this, because he assumes that everyone always watches in a man-cave like he does for his reviews of blu ray movies.

By the way, in the next paragraph he goes on to praise the processing on the Samsung. Here is the summary at the beginning of the review.

The good: Deeper black levels than any HDTV available aside from Pioneer Kuro; solid shadow detail; reduced blooming compared with other local dimming LED-based LCDs; accurate, highly saturated color; excellent video processing with adjustable dejudder; numerous picture adjustments; extensive interactive features including Yahoo widgets; beautiful styling with 1.6-inch deep panel; extremely energy efficient.

So you see, your expert David (rightfully) praised the Samsung for its excellent video processing and the adjustable de-judder with AMP. Notice how he also praised the 8500 for "accurate, highly saturated color".

Now. let's revisit the review of the Pioneer Elite 111:

"The bad: Extremely expensive; mediocre standard-definition processing."

Standard-definition: Unlike other aspects of its picture quality, the Elite's ability to handle standard-def sources was underwhelming according to our tests with the HQV DVD. Details were fine, both in the color-bars resolution pattern and in the stone bridge. But the set didn't eliminate as many jaggies from moving diagonal lines like a waving American flag as the Samsungs did, but it was still quite good and better than the Panasonic in this department. We really liked having those four noise reduction controls, and they worked extremely well to clean up moving motes in skies and sunsets. Surprisingly, the Elite failed our test for 2:3 pulldown, allowing moiré to creep into the grandstands after eliminating it briefly, regardless of the Film Mode or I-P mode we chose. As always, standard-def performance is irrelevant if you're connecting to a source that scales 480i to a higher resolution before connecting to the TV.

By the way, they were comparing the 2008 Kuro to 2008 Samsung processing. The Samsungs are even better now, and clearly have superior processing in 2009-2010 than the Pioneer. This is a bit unfair, because if Pioneer was still in the business, their processing would be better now. But it is what it is. This is 2010, not 2008. I can't help it that Pioneer is no longer advancing the processing for their Kuros. The processing is clearly superior on the Samsungs (which you'd be able to tell if you had Samsung's best PDP's and LED's side by side with the Kuro like I have), and the gap will continue to widen every single year that goes by.

Quote:


To boot:

Motions handling: Kuro.

False! The 8500 is better, thanks to the excellent AMP. Even PDP manufacturers are finally getting the clue and starting to offer MCFI on their displays. Pioneer even realized the value in this, because they offer a Pure Cinema "smooth" de-judder setting on their plasmas back in 2008. The only problem is that it doesn't work well at all. They are even starting to offer FI on projectors now. People are getting sick and tired of blurry, jerky, stuttery pans, and MCFI can make motion much more pleasing and reduce blur, even on scenes without pans.

I could see why people who don't have an excellent implementation of a fast 2ms 240hz display with custom AMP controls side-by-side with the best plasmas in their home may be skeptical of the benefits. But I have had experience with both side by side and I can say without hesitation that I prefer the motion on the 8500 over any plasma. My cheap 60 hz HP LCD monitor is another story. I do recognize that motion blur can be an issue with LCD's. But the 8500 is the best--the creme de la creme--it is not your typical blurry 60hz cheap PC monitor

I even used the motion resolution test from the 2007 Kuro demo disc, where they have the camera zoomed in on the license plates of cars driving by, and where they pan across text of an old manuscript. With anti-blur on 10 the Samsung looked even better than the Pioneer. You want to know why? The letters and numbers on the license plates looked just as legible as the Pioneer as the cars whizzed by, but since the license plates were zooming past the screen with fast motion I could see visible yellowish-green phosphor lag on the trailing edges of the white license plates on the Pioneer. So the 8500 beat the Pioneer at its own motion resolution test. The Samsung B860 and B8500 also beat the Pioneer on other video processing tests from its own test disc. Of course CNET conceded that the 8500 (as well as the similar 2ms panel on the 240hz 8000) has the best motion of any LED/LCD they have ever tested. They said it was the only LED or LCD they have ever tested that could resolve all 1080 lines of motion resolution with anti-blur engaged at the full setting of 10.

Quote:


Off Axis image quality: Kuro.

Not during the brighter daylight hours. You can move off-axis on the 8500 and it still holds it's contrast better than the Kuro. The contrast on the Kuro plummets when light hits the screen. In daylight conditions the FILTER is EVERYTHING, and trumps all. I will concede that the colors on the 8500 do fade a bit as you move more than 10-15 degrees off-axis, so you need to bump up the color control if you move more than a seat or two away from center.

Quote:


No blooming.

Phosphor trails

Quote:


No flashlights.

None on the 8500 either, Bub. This is not an edge-lit.

Quote:


No clouding.

Correct. No clouds on the Kuro. Just buzzing. Another thing that David over at CNET omits to mention in his reviews.

Of course, I could point out many more weaknesses that both you and your expert over at CNET conveniently leave out. The Kuro has a more noisy picture than even the Samsung 860 PDP, let alone the 8500 LED. I usually recommend turning all the other extra junk off, but one thing that the Kuros can benefit from is to turn on some noise reduction.

The 8500 has no line bleed, which is better than the rare and mild form of it that occurs on the Pioneers. I do give Kudos to the Pioneer for not showing nearly as much line bleed when comparing to other brands of PDP's, but now we are talking about comparing to an LED which has none.

Furthermore, the LED has nice crisp bright whites when there is a lot of white content on the screen. You can notice this on many commercials which have white backgrounds, or some scenes during the Winter Olympics. The Kuro shares the weakness that all PDP's have...ABL.

The 8500 is currently (but surely not for long) the pinnacle of LED-LCD technology, and the 500M is the pinnacle of PDP technology. Both technologies have their strengths and weaknesses, advantages and disadvantages, pros and cons. I try to be honest about all of them, and not act like a fanboy like some around here.

The 8500 is better to actually use as a television all day long when it's light out. If people have the need to watch widely off-axis then I can accept why it would not work for some. To each his own. I think I can manage the viewing angles in my environment, although it would be nice if I didn't have to hassle with it.

The 500M is best suited for watching films in the dark, and still looks great even for watching TV in the dark, although it could have a bit less noise and better processing to be perfect for nighttime TV watching. But for people who absolutely have to have wide viewing angles and like to watch a lot of TV in the dark or with a little bit of light from a bias light, as long as they can control the lighting in the room the Kuro remains unsurpassed. It also works well for people that don't mind drawing the shades in the middle of the day and having a dimmed room where they watch their TV.

The 8500 looks great all day long and I don't worry about blooming or viewing angles during daylight. If you turn on a couple lights in the room while you watch TV at night, as long as the lights are strategically placed so they are not reflecting right back at you on the screen, things like blooming and off-axis are greatly minimized. The 8500 works very well at night for people that like to watch TV and movies with the lights on.

I happen to like to shut off the lights if I can help it, so I prefer the 500M after dark, because it usually (but not always) has a bit better blacks on those challenging scenes, and it can squeeze out a little extra shadow detail, while remaining deep black, even though CNET praised the 8500 for "solid" and "superb" shadow detail.
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You keep bringing up phosphor trails, remember, not everyone can see them. I used to beat this topic over everyones heads but it is pointless to do so, because it really is a small amount of plasma owners that can see them. They still annoy me to this day on every plasma that I see, nothing I can do about it, but the 2009 and 2010 models have reduced them greatly from what the Kuro's displayed. (to the point that I see them once every couple of weeks instead of every few minutes)

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Originally Posted by PENDRAG0ON View Post

Even the glossy CCFL LCDs maintain those same level of blacks with the lights on.

The CCFL does maintain a lot better blacks than the plasmas, that's for sure. Because how dark the filter is becomes more important than MLL's when a significant amount of light is on in the room. (With the exception of a bias light behind the plasmas, which does not hurt them at all). I'm not really worried about artificial light bothering the plasmas, since I can strategically place it. I am one of those people who like to shut off the lights if I can help it. My father is different. He always has to have every light in the room on, even during the day when there is plenty of sunlight. He always has two or threre lights on (even reflecting on his plasma screen) when he is watching a movie. To each his own. I am more worried about contending with natural daylight which is far brighter than a lamp or two. This time of year it doesn't get dark until well after 8 PM and the 8500 looks great all day long until it gets dark, and then the Kuro can begin to beat it, but the difference is not dramatic.

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They also have better viewing angles, the only advantage that the LED backlit sets truly have over the CCFL sets is in a completly dark room head on. I have yet to see any reason to buy an LED based LCD over a CCFL set.

Well one additional thing perhaps you forgot is flashlights. By shutting off the LED's where the black bars are, you don't get those annoying flashlights in the corners that you can get with CCFL and edge-lits. And of course the 8500 has much better contrast and deeper blacks than the B750, even with some modest light in the room. I've seen the 8500 next to other CCFL and edge-lits in dim and bright environments and the fact that it can remain bright in certain parts of the screen and go completely black in others does give a deeper shade of black, even with some artificial light. So of course there are some reasons to go LED-backlit rather than CCFL.

The whole point is that the 8500 is one of the first displays that can easily surpass the Kuros in lit conditions and still put up a good fight against it in the dark. It still loses out to the 500M in the dark, but it beats most every other plasma out there. So I regard the 8500 as better than all other displays except the 500M in controlled conditions. Overall, since my viewing environment is less than ideal, I think I prefer the 8500 over the 500M.
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Originally Posted by PENDRAG0ON View Post

You keep bringing up phosphor trails, remember, not everyone can see them. I used to beat this topic over everyones heads but it is pointless to do so, because it really is a small amount of plasma owners that can see them. They still annoy me to this day on every plasma that I see, nothing I can do about it, but the 2009 and 2010 models have reduced them greatly from what the Kuro's displayed. (to the point that I see them once every couple of weeks instead of every few minutes)

Oh good, you started the conversation so I wouldn't have to! I think you hit the nail on the head, since if prospective purchasers saw phosphor lag, didn't know what they were seeing, and didn't like that, then they wouldn't be plasma owners, now would they?

The phosphor lag on the TC-P50VT20 is the very least I've seen to date - but this is a brand new model. I was able to compare a TC-P50VT20 to a PRO-101FD and the VT20 spanked the 101FD in terms of phosphor lag.

I always find it comical how plasma fans quote the unsubstantiated 1 or 2 percent of the population BS! Every single person I've pointed out phosphor lag to can "see" it... it's just that some people really don't like it! I'd say the minority are those who cannot see the effect... dull eyes for displays that look dull with ambient light!
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False. You are testing the displays under dark lighting conditions and significantly saturated conditions. You're testing at two ends of a spectrum and applying it to the entire spectrum. The ends of the spectrum are typically a range not just one brightness level, but you're going from extremely bright to even brighter or dark to very dark and ignoring everything in between.

You have the audacity to tell me how I am conducting tests in my own home?? Are you serious? How do you know that I am only testing in the extreme dark and extreme light conditions? Where do you get off knowing how my room lighting works? It's not always sunny out. I do have blinds that I can close. As the sun sets and before the sun rises you can have moderate light conditions. I can turn on some lights in various parts of the room.

You look silly presuming to come on this forum and speak for me, telling everyone how I am conducting tests in my own home. Please stop.

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The LED will work better directly opposite the window as long as you're on-axes, but the reflections would rule out any display in that location in my book. If it works for you I'm happy, but it in no way shape or form makes it better than a KRP simply because it's better in one environment.

You are sounding more and more irrational with every post. Have you never heard of a swivel stand? What makes you think I cannot simply swivel the 8500 away from most window reflections so that I am not off-axis or looking at bright reflections? You can move off-axis a bit and swivel the stand so you are still looking straight on.

And you forgot that the 8500 can get so bright during the day that it simply powers through most every reflection. The only time it can't power through them is of course on darker scenes, especially black, where plasmas won't be putting out any light to combat reflections either.
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