HDTV Shootout - Page 3 - AVS Forum
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post #61 of 379 Old 09-17-2010, 12:28 PM
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Originally Posted by D-Nice View Post

I don't think the C8000's black level is correct on that report (I did not calibrate or measure that particular panel). My gut tells me the correct MLL is 0.007-0.008fL. It was definitely close the VT25 though.

Yes, I see it was Mr. Ed Johnson that worked on the C8000; would you be so kind as to ask him about this issue? (I am not aware of him posting to AVS, maybe he does?)

My TV room's natural light can vary quite a bit, and having an ancient Sony LCD RPTV, I hated having to totally close the shades when there was daylight, so I gave up on daylight viewing with this TV a while ago, unless necessary.

Now, looking to get a new TV, I see an opportunity to watch TV in daylight, sometimes, but still quite often in dim light. So, I wonder, have you ever compared the VT25 to the C8000 with varying light in the room, to determine the light level necessary for the C8000 to equal the VT25 in perceived black level?
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post #62 of 379 Old 09-17-2010, 02:11 PM
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Originally Posted by D-Nice View Post

Because it is a discontinued model. Robert wanted to show it, but myself, Kevin and Ed insisted that it stay out of the shootout.

Fair enough, currently available vs absolute
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post #63 of 379 Old 09-17-2010, 02:56 PM
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Originally Posted by rdgrimes View Post

And a perfectly reasonable decision too. The point of a shootout is to provide useful information for people wanting to buy a new set, not an discontinued one. As good as the Pio may be, it's no longer relevant.

I partially disagree as any TV that's at the top will always be relevant until surpassed and by showing it in a shootout gives an opportunity for that to happen or at least judge how close the new sets have closed the gap.
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post #64 of 379 Old 09-17-2010, 03:00 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by GmanAVS View Post

Any reason to why no 500M or 101FD in the shootout (as a benchmark)?

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Originally Posted by dsskid View Post

Discontinued, and not 3D capable.

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Originally Posted by GmanAVS View Post

hmmm, like having a top sports car shootout and not having a Ferrari Enso present, gotchya

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Originally Posted by D-Nice View Post

Because it is a discontinued model. Robert wanted to show it, but myself, Kevin and Ed insisted that it stay out of the shootout.

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Originally Posted by GmanAVS View Post

Fair enough, currently available vs absolute

Yet when I gave you the same answer, you rolled your eyes.

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post #65 of 379 Old 09-17-2010, 03:11 PM
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This event is a great idea and quite valuable to everyone. It is great to give feedback to the manufacturers so that they can make better displays or even improve on current displays by offering new firmware. My thanks to everyone involved for taking the time and effort to do it and share with everyone.

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post #66 of 379 Old 09-17-2010, 04:43 PM
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Why don't you guys just ask D-Nice how the Pioneer Kuros compare to the sets at the shootout?

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post #67 of 379 Old 09-17-2010, 11:45 PM
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Originally Posted by rgb32 View Post

I would imagine from the selected TVs that the VT25 would be the best of the bunch for this type of event. It is a nice display! That said...

They wouldn't pit a XBR8 in any prior comparison, and they've pulled the same thing this year:

1. Panasonic TC-P58VT25 3D plasma
2. Samsung PN58C8000 3D plasma
3. LG 55LX9500 3D LCD/LED Edge Lit
4. Sony KDL-55NX810 3D LCD/LED Edge Lit (not in stores yet) - Was the HX909 disqualified, just like the XBR8 was?
5. Samsung UN58C8000 3D LCD/LED Precision Edge Lit
6. Sharp LC-60LE925UN 3D LCD/LED (not in stores yet)

Where's the XBR-52HX909 or the XBR-60LX900? Oh... they had to use a NX810 instead of a HX9xxx... It's like they refuse to have a flagship Sony in the running, but pick the flagships of other mfgs! (e.g. VT25 series)

The '08 Shoot Out was held right as the new Kuros became available, which was right before the XBR8 was released. The excuse was that it wasn't available yet... The HX909 is available, but they decided to go edge lit only (no direct local dimming LEDs in the shootout)... hmm...




Hate to kill your little rant... but....

Sony picked which TV it wanted to send and had it flown out there specifically along with the Sony rep...

So, on with your next conspiracy theory...


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post #68 of 379 Old 09-17-2010, 11:59 PM
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Originally Posted by HTguru3 View Post

I partially disagree as any TV that's at the top will always be relevant until surpassed and by showing it in a shootout gives an opportunity for that to happen or at least judge how close the new sets have closed the gap.

Oh, ok... let's crown a TV the winner than no one can buy...

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post #69 of 379 Old 09-18-2010, 05:04 AM
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Originally Posted by Pologuy View Post

Hate to kill your little rant... but....

Sony picked which TV it wanted to send and had it flown out there specifically along with the Sony rep...

So, on with your next conspiracy theory...


Yes, but why? No one has said why Sony would not feature/demonstrate its HX9xx series model?
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post #70 of 379 Old 09-18-2010, 08:49 AM
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Originally Posted by Pologuy View Post

Oh, ok... let's crown a TV the winner than no one can buy...

and your comment served what purpose? The suggestion was mainly meant so that people can get an idea as to how the new (and available) sets compare to the reference model. The "winner" (which really means very little anyway) could still be the best available set. No reason to be such a dk.
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post #71 of 379 Old 09-18-2010, 01:26 PM
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Originally Posted by HTguru3 View Post

and your comment served what purpose? The suggestion was mainly meant so that people can get an idea as to how the new (and available) sets compare to the reference model. The "winner" (which really means very little anyway) could still be the best available set. No reason to be such a dk.

Well, it just gets REALLY old...

Everyone keeps harping on the same thing - "well, it's not as good as the Kuro..."

Well, the Kuro is not made anymore, and has not been made since 2008 to my knowledge (may be wrong )

That, and the previous posts intimating that Sony's best TV was kept off the shootout, when it was Sony that chose which TV to send...

Let Panasonic have its due!

And, of course, this has absolutely nothing to do with the fact that I just bought mine yesterday, lol.


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post #72 of 379 Old 09-18-2010, 03:01 PM
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If OLED gets bigger, will you consider to have that tech in the next shootout? I'd love to see how OLED would compare to Plasma and LCD.
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post #73 of 379 Old 09-18-2010, 03:06 PM
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Originally Posted by Pologuy View Post

Well, the Kuro is not made anymore, and has not been made since 2008 to my knowledge (may be wrong )

AFAIK, general availability of the '08 Kuros was ~1 July '08, and production was stopped at the end of a certain mo. in '09, I am fairly certain it was 31 March '09.

Anyway, to the point of whether it should have in the comparison, these TVs have not only been discontinued for quite a while, ~1.5 yrs. (hard to believe), there have only been a few available for ~0.75 yr., and at this time they are scarce. The test was about comparing TVs that can be bought now of very soon, so I agree with keeping it out, but it isn't a strong agreement.

I see the other side of the argument, that they wanted to compare it to the benchmark, but that would've only hurt sales of current TVs and calibrations, adding to the list of people waiting for a Kuro-equalizer or better.

I have waited long enough, so I am planning to buy very soon; and I know the 9G Kuros were and are better.
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post #74 of 379 Old 09-18-2010, 05:22 PM
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Originally Posted by Pologuy View Post

Well, it just gets REALLY old...

Sorry if reality bothers you.

Everyone keeps harping on the same thing - "well, it's not as good as the Kuro..."

it is what it is and nothing will change that until it's topped. Wouldn't you be excited if a new panel came along that was better? That day will happen and the best way for it to happen is to do side by side comparisons.

Well, the Kuro is not made anymore, and has not been made since 2008 to my knowledge (may be wrong )

very true, but still very much in play in many home theaters.

That, and the previous posts intimating that Sony's best TV was kept off the shootout, when it was Sony that chose which TV to send...

Let Panasonic have its due!

Panasonic or another brand will have it's day when it becomes the benchmark.

And, of course, this has absolutely nothing to do with the fact that I just bought mine yesterday, lol.

Be happy that you have a very nice TV and one that was ranked in this test as the best. Even if it doesn't surpass the last Kuro, according to this shootout you have the best set available and testing against a Kuro wouldn't change that.
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post #75 of 379 Old 09-18-2010, 09:15 PM
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This was another great event put on by Robert and VE. There really is no other event like this anywhere in the world as far as I know, and each year its gotten better and better.

As far as the results this year, if you put a gun to my head, theres no doubt that I would say the pannie was the winner.
That said, I'm probably going to buy the samsung 63c8000.

When I bought my Kuro, I lost alot of sleep figuring out whether it was worth the ~2k I paid extra over the comparable panasonic at the time. Ultimately I convinced myself, and more importantly my wife that it was worth the extra money. No regrets on that decision btw.

This year between the samsung and the pannie, I can say without a doubt that having seen them side by side, imho, the pannie is NOT worth the extra coin. I'm probably in the minority of the people that attended the event who feels this way since most would argue that absolute performance is best and most didnt seem to care much about the costs. (My thinking is if I'm gonna spend vt25 money this year, I should just go whole hog and find a kuro for a little more money.)

Also 3d was great on the plasmas, pretty awful on the lcds, alot of crosstalk. It was great to see some demo material that was NOT animation.
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post #76 of 379 Old 09-18-2010, 09:37 PM
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Originally Posted by kyungkim View Post

This was another great event put on by Robert and VE. There really is no other event like this anywhere in the world as far as I know, and each year its gotten better and better.

As far as the results this year, if you put a gun to my head, theres no doubt that I would say the pannie was the winner.
That said, I'm probably going to buy the samsung 63c8000.

When I bought my Kuro, I lost alot of sleep figuring out whether it was worth the ~2k I paid extra over the comparable panasonic at the time. Ultimately I convinced myself, and more importantly my wife that it was worth the extra money. No regrets on that decision btw.

This year between the samsung and the pannie, I can say without a doubt that having seen them side by side, imho, the pannie is NOT worth the extra coin. I'm probably in the minority of the people that attended the event who feels this way since most would argue that absolute performance is best and most didnt seem to care much about the costs. (My thinking is if I'm gonna spend vt25 money this year, I should just go whole hog and find a kuro for a little more money.)

Also 3d was great on the plasmas, pretty awful on the lcds, alot of crosstalk. It was great to see some demo material that was NOT animation.

I was at the event too. My first show and a great experience! I agree and thought the VT25 was a little better, but I just think the c8000 is the better value. Between the 2d to 3d conversion, the better aesthetics and the better availability.....oh, not to mention even at maximum discount, better price, the Samsung seems like a better deal. On regular material the two sets were pretty close, with a couple of people at the show saying the same thing.

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post #77 of 379 Old 09-19-2010, 12:25 AM
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I would have a MUCH easier time beliving that the C8000 was "almost" as good as the VT25 if the vote for best overall TV was not UNANIMOUS.

There is no way you can get everyone to agree on something that is "close"...

Also, you are forgetting that if you are talking about the 63" version of the C8000 - the 65 VT25 is 2" larger...

And, to some 2" might not sound like a lot, but there is only 4" that separate the others - 50", 54", 58"...

I was fortunate enough to see a C8000 63" and to me it looked no bigger than my friends 58" VT25, as a matter of fact, I swore it was the 58" version until he showed me the receipt.. lol

That, and the fact that the VT25 bezel is wider and makes (to me at least) the screen look much bigger...

So, starting out you have an additional 2 inches and a bezel that makes it look even larger...

It was a no brainier

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post #78 of 379 Old 09-19-2010, 05:57 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pologuy View Post

I would have a MUCH easier time beliving that the C8000 was "almost" as good as the VT25 if the vote for best overall TV was not UNANIMOUS.


On first shine, what you say makes a lot of sense.

Once you consider that these sets were objectively measured, I can't agree with you. It's not like subjective arguements where it really just depends on individual preferences, but measured parameters that can be compared objectively.

Your turn.

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post #79 of 379 Old 09-19-2010, 06:29 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kyungkim View Post

This was another great event put on by Robert and VE. There really is no other event like this anywhere in the world as far as I know, and each year its gotten better and better.

As far as the results this year, if you put a gun to my head, theres no doubt that I would say the pannie was the winner.
That said, I'm probably going to buy the samsung 63c8000.

When I bought my Kuro, I lost alot of sleep figuring out whether it was worth the ~2k I paid extra over the comparable panasonic at the time. Ultimately I convinced myself, and more importantly my wife that it was worth the extra money. No regrets on that decision btw.

This year between the samsung and the pannie, I can say without a doubt that having seen them side by side, imho, the pannie is NOT worth the extra coin. I'm probably in the minority of the people that attended the event who feels this way since most would argue that absolute performance is best and most didnt seem to care much about the costs. (My thinking is if I'm gonna spend vt25 money this year, I should just go whole hog and find a kuro for a little more money.)

Also 3d was great on the plasmas, pretty awful on the lcds, alot of crosstalk. It was great to see some demo material that was NOT animation.

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I was at the event too. My first show and a great experience! I agree and thought the VT25 was a little better, but I just think the c8000 is the better value. Between the 2d to 3d conversion, the better aesthetics and the better availability.....oh, not to mention even at maximum discount, better price, the Samsung seems like a better deal. On regular material the two sets were pretty close, with a couple of people at the show saying the same thing.

I agree. I was there Saturday, and viewed them both closely, and feel the same way. Panny edged the Samsung. Yes it was better, but I feel the Samsung was a better value.

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post #80 of 379 Old 09-19-2010, 06:38 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pologuy View Post

I would have a MUCH easier time beliving that the C8000 was "almost" as good as the VT25 if the vote for best overall TV was not UNANIMOUS.

No one said it didn't come out on top. We're talking about better value.

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There is no way you can get everyone to agree on something that is "close"...

Why not? Most can agree that a Lexus is edges out a Toyota with all the bells and whistles, but that doesn't make it a better value.

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Also, you are forgetting that if you are talking about the 63" version of the C8000 - the 65 VT25 is 2" larger...

And, to some 2" might not sound like a lot, but there is only 4" that separate the others - 50", 54", 58"...

Difference between the 63" and the 58" is 5" as opposed to the 63" and 65" which is 2". Don't quite understand what you're saying.

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I was fortunate enough to see a C8000 63" and to me it looked no bigger than my friends 58" VT25, as a matter of fact, I swore it was the 58" version until he showed me the receipt..

lol What? If this is truly the case, then you would have found a much more difficult time telling the difference between the Samsung and the Panasonic.

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That, and the fact that the VT25 bezel is wider and makes (to me at least) the screen look much bigger...

So, starting out you have an additional 2 inches and a bezel that makes it look even larger...

Ok, so you prefer the clunky bezel. Most don't. What does that have to do with picture quality?

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It was a no brainier

Obviously for some.

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post #81 of 379 Old 09-19-2010, 08:36 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JimP View Post

On first shine, what you say makes a lot of sense.

Once you consider that these sets were objectively measured, I can't agree with you. It's not like subjective arguements where it really just depends on individual preferences, but measured parameters that can be compared objectively.

Your turn.

I believe you just made my point for me...

The fact is that the votes were subjective... if they were strictly on measured parameters the LG would have won - but it did not, it came in 3rd.

And the fact that, as you state everyone has individual preferences, and that everyone voted for the Panasonic proves my point.

It is virtually impossible to get that many professionals in one room and have them all vote for the same TV in a unanimous vote if the TVs were "that close"...


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post #82 of 379 Old 09-19-2010, 08:46 AM
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No one said it didn't come out on top. We're talking about better value.

Ok, first, value is dependent on what is important to the purchaser, not everyones "value" is going to be the same - and I realize that is your opinion. I can agree that if some were wanting a better "value" and not the better TV, then some would choose the Samsung.

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Why not? Most can agree that a Lexus is edges out a Toyota with all the bells and whistles, but that doesn't make it a better value.

Which Lexus just "edges" out which Toyota? LOL, I get what you are trying to say...

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Difference between the 63" and the 58" is 5" as opposed to the 65" and 65" which is 5". Don't quite understand what you're saying.

I wasn't talking about the 58" - What I was saying was the VT25 comes in a 65" size and the C8000 only comes in a 63" size, etc...

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lol What? If this is truly the case, then you would have found a much more difficult time telling the difference between the Samsung and the Panasonic.

Actually not really... And what really gave me a hard time with the Samsung, cosmetically, was the phony brushed metal looking gray bezel made out of plastic - I had a very hard time getting over how phony it looked and felt.

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Ok, so you prefer the clunky bezel. Most don't. What does that have to do with picture quality?

Again, your opinion - the people I was with much preferred the Panasonic's bezel to the Samsung's - for the reasons stated above. And my point was that, at least to me and the others I was with, the Panasonic's bezel while being wider, also has the added benefit of making the picture look bigger because it is wider.


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post #83 of 379 Old 09-19-2010, 10:25 AM
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Originally Posted by Pologuy View Post

I believe you just made my point for me...

The fact is that the votes were subjective... if they were strictly on measured parameters the LG would have won - but it did not, it came in 3rd.

And the fact that, as you state everyone has individual preferences, and that everyone voted for the Panasonic proves my point.

It is virtually impossible to get that many professionals in one room and have them all vote for the same TV in a unanimous vote if the TVs were "that close"...


The LG might have won, but it had issues with it's front filter and banding. The LEX8 might reduce or eliminate banding, but they'll need to do something about the AR filter's yellowish color.

Those just happen to be two things that measurements can't decipher. It was the same last year with the Samsung B860. It had a look that was similar to CRT, but it isn't something that can be measured.

Besides those few instances, I'd trust the charts. Then again, charts mean nothing to Sharp quadpixel owners.

How is your VT25?

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post #84 of 379 Old 09-19-2010, 11:17 AM
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I would have a MUCH easier time beliving that the C8000 was "almost" as good as the VT25 if the vote for best overall TV was not UNANIMOUS.

There is no way you can get everyone to agree on something that is "close"...

Also, you are forgetting that if you are talking about the 63" version of the C8000 - the 65 VT25 is 2" larger...

And, to some 2" might not sound like a lot, but there is only 4" that separate the others - 50", 54", 58"...

I was fortunate enough to see a C8000 63" and to me it looked no bigger than my friends 58" VT25, as a matter of fact, I swore it was the 58" version until he showed me the receipt.. lol

That, and the fact that the VT25 bezel is wider and makes (to me at least) the screen look much bigger...

So, starting out you have an additional 2 inches and a bezel that makes it look even larger...

It was a no brainier

Hmmmm, let me get this straight. Every Panny VT25 thread keeps touting this HDTV shootout as absolute proof of the Panny's superiority. All of the comments center around all of the PROFESSIONALS who were there, how objective the testing was, etc. Clearly this is indisputable. I went to the website, read everything and am totally on board as a 63C8000 owner. The Panny is the best, C8000 number 2. I spent A LOT less money for my TV so I'm happy. No big deal. Now, a couple of the experts AT THE SHOOTOUT have come forward and said that the TVs were close. They admit the VT25 edged the C8000 out a hair, but it was close enough that they say the C8000 is a better value. So now you want to question these folks because you just can't accept any opinions other than the ones that validate your own bias. If that isn't the definition of neurotic fanboy I don't know what is. You simply cannot accept the idea that the C8000 is right on the heels of your VT25. Touting something as gospel then saying the folks who were there are wrong is the definition of hypocrisy.
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post #85 of 379 Old 09-19-2010, 11:31 AM
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I currently have the pn63c8000 and owned a 58vt25 for about 3 weeks. I noticed that the VT25 had a slight edge for black level, so I was suprised to see those readings as well. the C8000 has great black levels dont get me wrong, however black levels is the one and only area in which I thought that the VT25 excelled over the C8000. Every other category I personally award the C8000.

Also my initial response to owning the VT25 was WOWING, however after owning it for some time you begin to notice some annoying flaws in which the C8000 does NOT have. That is why I think people gave the nod to the VT25 over the C8000. However if they spent additional time they would begin to notice the same issues I did.

Either way both the C8000 and Vt25 are awesome TVs

OMG, wait a second. Did you say you like the C8000 better than the VT25! And you've owned both. Pologuy, clearly this gentlemen must be from another planet because he preferred the Samsung over the Panny. Any sane human being knows this can't be true, correct?
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post #86 of 379 Old 09-19-2010, 11:38 AM
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I hope everybody knows I'm not trying to be nasty. I'm trying to keep this lighthearted. There are lots of people who have serious life issues. If the biggest thing we argue about is who does or does not have a better TV......well, life is pretty good. I make fun of you Pologuy, but I'm seriously laughing as I'm typing these posts........
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post #87 of 379 Old 09-19-2010, 03:11 PM
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LMAO, everyone is entitled to their own opinion, that's what makes life so fun!

It just gets old, people saying, well, if this was this and that was that, then the Sammy would have won, or the LG would have won - the point is, they did not!

Again, you get 30+ professionals all in one room that agree on one thing - that one thing has to be damn good and not just "edge" out the other 5.

It was a UNANIMOUS vote...

Now, if the vote was not unanimous, and say 3-4 out of the 30+ voted for the Sammy, then it would give pause...

Now, on the other hand, if you are talking about the TV's "value", again, that is subjective - what one person sees as "value" another does not...

To me, there is no "value" in Samsung's 2D to 3D conversion; others have stated that they liked it and was a deciding factor in their purchase - that is fine, they "valued" that feature...

Others have stated that they liked the Samsung because it was thinner - again, they "valued" the TV being thinner and several used that as one of their deciding factors... I don't watch my TV from the side, I watch it from the front, so that was not a "value" to me...

Then others have stated the price, the Samsung lacks THX certification and the THX mode which is hard to get and costs a lot of money. So you save some money on the Samsung because of the lack of this and the THX feature mode - some people "value" the THX feature, as it has been said by every professional reviewer who has reviewed the VT25 that the THX mode is the closest thing to a professional calibration without actually getting a professional calibration - and will pay more because they "value" this feature...

Several people have commented on how bad Samsung's customer service (or lack thereof) is - I "value" good customer service... especially when purchasing a $3000 TV...

Then there was the fact that I wanted the largest TV, the C8000 only goes up to 63" and the VT25 goes up to 65" - there was extra "value" for me in those extra 2" (no cheap shots!, lol). 2" may not sound like a lot, but it does make a big difference.

And if you shop around you can get the VT25 for darn near what you can get a C8000...


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post #88 of 379 Old 09-19-2010, 03:41 PM
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LMAO, everyone is entitled to their own opinion, that's what makes life so fun!

It just gets old, people saying, well, if this was this and that was that, then the Sammy would have won, or the LG would have won - the point is, they did not!

Again, you get 30+ professionals all in one room that agree on one thing - that one thing has to be damn good and not just "edge" out the other 5.

It was a UNANIMOUS vote...

Now, if the vote was not unanimous, and say 3-4 out of the 30+ voted for the Sammy, then it would give pause...

Now, on the other hand, if you are talking about the TV's "value", again, that is subjective - what one person sees as "value" another does not...

To me, there is no "value" in Samsung's 2D to 3D conversion; others have stated that they liked it and was a deciding factor in their purchase - that is fine, they "valued" that feature...

Others have stated that they liked the Samsung because it was thinner - again, they "valued" the TV being thinner and several used that as one of their deciding factors... I don't watch my TV from the side, I watch it from the front, so that was not a "value" to me...

Then others have stated the price, the Samsung lacks THX certification and the THX mode which is hard to get and costs a lot of money. So you save some money on the Samsung because of the lack of this and the THX feature mode - some people "value" the THX feature, as it has been said by every professional reviewer who has reviewed the VT25 that the THX mode is the closest thing to a professional calibration without actually getting a professional calibration - and will pay more because they "value" this feature...

Several people have commented on how bad Samsung's customer service (or lack thereof) is - I "value" good customer service... especially when purchasing a $3000 TV...

Then there was the fact that I wanted the largest TV, the C8000 only goes up to 63" and the VT25 goes up to 65" - there was extra "value" for me in those extra 2" (no cheap shots!, lol). 2" may not sound like a lot, but it does make a big difference.

And if you shop around you can get the VT25 for darn near what you can get a C8000...


We r at an impasse so will agree to disagree. Everybody has their own opinion, as you said. After reading about a thousand of these posts I'm not convinced the VT25 is a better TV at all (not sure what this floating black issue is that keeps getting mentioned) not just a better value. You obviously think otherwise so good for owners of both TVs. What is clear is they are very comparable so pick what's important to you and go from there.
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post #89 of 379 Old 09-19-2010, 03:55 PM
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I'll tell you who should be pissed......every new LED TV owner who spent $5000+ on a 60"+ TV with 3D that is far inferior to cheaper plasma TVs. When it comes to 3D I don't think any reasonable person can argue anything other than Plasma being better. Crosstalk on every single LED TV I looked at was really bad compared to Plasma. Not even close. In this case it's a matter of technology working for plasma displays, which are much, much faster.
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post #90 of 379 Old 09-19-2010, 03:58 PM
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I'll tell you who should be pissed......every new LED TV owner who spent $5000+ on a 60"+ TV with 3D that is far inferior to cheaper plasma TVs. When it comes to 3D I don't think any reasonable person can argue anything other than Plasma being better. Crosstalk on every single LED TV I looked at was really bad compared to Plasma. Not even close. In this case it's a matter of technology working for plasma displays, which are much, much faster.

LOL, see we CAN agree!

That, along with the phony colors of LED, bad viewing angles, etc...


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