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post #1 of 379 Old 09-12-2010, 06:02 AM - Thread Starter
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I was at the 2010 HDTV Shootout last night where they put the manufacturer's top displays through a workout. Very cool. Some great tech this year with some very interesting results.

It's a two-day event with the second showing today at 3PM. Can be seen streamed live from here:

l i v e s t r e am . c o m / h d t v sh o o t o u t (No spaces) Check it out.


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post #2 of 379 Old 09-12-2010, 11:54 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dsskid View Post

I was at the 2010 HDTV Shootout last night where they put the manufacturer's top displays through a workout. Very cool. Some great tech this year with some very interesting results.

It's a two-day event with the second showing today at 3PM. Can be seen streamed live from here:

l i v e s t r e am . c o m / h d t v sh o o t o u t (No spaces) Check it out.

Can you summarize the results for us?
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post #3 of 379 Old 09-12-2010, 03:23 PM
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Panny VT25 plasma came out on top.
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post #4 of 379 Old 09-12-2010, 08:36 PM
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Originally Posted by BillP View Post

Panny VT25 plasma came out on top.

Thanks, but I am looking for some detail, like a summary of the entire shootout. I already knew that one.
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post #5 of 379 Old 09-13-2010, 05:17 AM
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Between poor off-axis, blooming, and motion handling that most still poo-poo next to a modern PDP, I doubt the 909 or 900 would've eclipsed the VT25 anyway, although it's a fine display in its own right.

What a shocker anyways, a very reasonably-priced, modern plasma takes first.

Must've been conducted by a bunch of PDP fanboys, lol.

I'm sure a shootout-thread with details will appear as soon as someone sorts out such things.

And you can be sure the usual suspects will show-up, attempting to poke holes in the entire operation/methodology.

James

Actual phone call (see pic to left):

 

Tech (responding to laughter): "I'm sorry sir, did I miss something?"

Me: "Yeah, a case of Diet Mountain Dew walking across my living room."

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post #6 of 379 Old 09-13-2010, 06:06 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mastermaybe View Post

Between poor off-axis, blooming, and motion handling that most still poo-poo next to a modern PDP, I doubt the 909 or 900 would've eclipsed the VT25 anyway, although it's a fine display in its own right.

What a shocker anyways, a very reasonably-priced, modern plasma takes first.

Must've been conducted by a bunch of PDP fanboys, lol.

I'm sure a shootout-thread with details will appear as soon as someone sorts out such things.

And you can be sure the usual suspects will show-up, attempting to poke holes in the entire operation/methodology.

James

LOL... Pot calling the kettle 黒!

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post #7 of 379 Old 09-13-2010, 06:21 AM
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Pot calling nothing! T'was obvious jest, which these threads can always use.

James

Actual phone call (see pic to left):

 

Tech (responding to laughter): "I'm sorry sir, did I miss something?"

Me: "Yeah, a case of Diet Mountain Dew walking across my living room."

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post #8 of 379 Old 09-13-2010, 06:53 AM
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The Samsung plasma beat out the LX9500, which to me, is probably the best local dimming set. The pnc8000 is a bargain, since it's offering close performance to a VT25, although it's harder to calibrate.

I'd like to see a shootout where the different series in a same line are compared. VT vs. G, or the pnc8000 vs. 550/6500. Wouldn't be worth a whole event, but it would give a good comparison for the cost/performance ratio.

The Toshiba local dimming is supposed to come in soon. I'm reading it has 2160p native resolution.

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post #9 of 379 Old 09-13-2010, 07:41 AM
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[quote=rgb32;19183229]I would imagine from the selected TVs that the VT25 would be the best of the bunch for this type of event. It is a nice display! That said...

They wouldn't pit a XBR8 in any prior comparison, and they've pulled the same thing this year:

1. Panasonic TC-P58VT25 3D plasma
2. Samsung PN58C8000 3D plasma
3. LG 55LX9500 3D LCD/LED Edge Lit
4. Sony KDL-55NX810 3D LCD/LED Edge Lit (not in stores yet) - Was the HX909 disqualified, just like the XBR8 was?
5. Samsung UN58C8000 3D LCD/LED Precision Edge Lit
6. Sharp LC-60LE925UN 3D LCD/LED (not in stores yet)

Where's the XBR-52HX909 or the XBR-60LX900? Oh... they had to use a NX810 instead of a HX9xxx... It's like they refuse to have a flagship Sony in the running, but pick the flagships of other mfgs! (e.g. VT25 series)

The '08 Shoot Out was held right as the new Kuros became available, which was right before the XBR8 was released. The excuse was that it wasn't available yet... The HX909 is available, but they decided to go edge lit only (no direct local dimming LEDs in the shootout)... hmm...



[/QUOTE

Sony simply did not make the XBR available for review. They wanted to put the new model in as it is being shipped in the next two weeks. It is the best Sony LCD I have seen although it still had plenty of issues. I believe the XBR was included in last's year's event or the one before, the XBR8 and it was a very poor performer, the worst of them all that year. I have been to all the shootouts and the Sony's have always been the laggard, until this year. The VT25 put the rest of the field to shame.
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post #10 of 379 Old 09-13-2010, 07:43 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rgb32 View Post

I would imagine from the selected TVs that the VT25 would be the best of the bunch for this type of event. It is a nice display! That said...

They wouldn't pit a XBR8 in any prior comparison, and they've pulled the same thing this year:

1. Panasonic TC-P58VT25 3D plasma
2. Samsung PN58C8000 3D plasma
3. LG 55LX9500 3D LCD/LED Edge Lit
4. Sony KDL-55NX810 3D LCD/LED Edge Lit (not in stores yet) - Was the HX909 disqualified, just like the XBR8 was?
5. Samsung UN58C8000 3D LCD/LED Precision Edge Lit
6. Sharp LC-60LE925UN 3D LCD/LED (not in stores yet)

Where's the XBR-52HX909 or the XBR-60LX900? Oh... they had to use a NX810 instead of a HX9xxx... It's like they refuse to have a flagship Sony in the running, but pick the flagships of other mfgs! (e.g. VT25 series)

The '08 Shoot Out was held right as the new Kuros became available, which was right before the XBR8 was released. The excuse was that it wasn't available yet... The HX909 is available, but they decided to go edge lit only (no direct local dimming LEDs in the shootout)... hmm...




SONY wouldn't send the HX909 or the LX900. All the TV's shown except for the Sharp had a REP @ the event. Robert requested all the flagship displays from all the manufacturer's. What was displayed is what was sent.

You also know that the NX810 did very well IMO. For me it was the BEST LED LCD in the shoot-out. The only flaws I saw were it offered a purplish tinge in scene's where grey was displayed.

Though by the numbers(Calibration Stats) the LG 9500 was the winner, it suffered very much from both Horizontal & Vertical Banding. The LG LED also was acting funky during the showing of a particular test pattern shown by Kevin Miller of Saturday.
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post #11 of 379 Old 09-13-2010, 09:01 AM
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NX810 is using the worse Samsung SPVA panels instead of Sharp UV2A panels found in most other Sonys this year. Would be nice to see a proper comparison with an HX909 or at least LX900.
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post #12 of 379 Old 09-14-2010, 09:46 AM
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Gee the shoot out videos are long. Slowly watching them a bit at a time.
Looks like they went to a lot of time and trouble and tried to do their best to give the display comparison a level playing field. Nice to see the manufactures taking such a keen interest, sending their displays and reps.

Sony is odd choosing to send a senior exec and a senior engineer as reps but a display that their rep says has inferior picture quality to another smaller Sony TV that uses better local dimming and better processing. Maybe they were trying to promote the larger display. Still the choice of Sony TV for the shootout was Sonys.

Have not finished watching the videos so do not know if they do this anyway. But for suggestion of other shoot out criteria. How about displays setup for 50ftL white level, gamma 2.5 and being viewed with lighting. If displays can not reach that white level or gamma then each setup as close as it can get. 50ftL because it was the SMPTE target white level for CRT, 2.5 gamma because it is often quoted as CRT gamma and according to EBU spec 2.35 +/-0.15 is the highest in spec gamma rather than the lowest, and room with lighting so it is equivalent to a living room.
To compensate for inaccurate color decoders instead of desaturating the picture how about biasing the greyscale, red push decoders were apparently designed to compensate for bluish greyscale which was used to boost image brightness.
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post #13 of 379 Old 09-14-2010, 10:21 AM
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I started to watch the online video but it seems like a lot of promotion by the TV companies.

Can you tell me where the actual comparisons are performed ?

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post #14 of 379 Old 09-14-2010, 11:04 AM
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I was there on 9/11 and it was a long shootout. Didn't get out until after midnight. All the sets were calibrated to the exact industry standards or as close to them as they could get.
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post #15 of 379 Old 09-14-2010, 09:31 PM
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I was at the 9/11 shootout also. The VT25 did win. I was surprised though how close the Samsung Plasma did come to it at least during normal viewing. Too bad the LX9500 had such flaws because I think that LG is onto something with LED's.

I will say that I have seen the Samsung un55c8000 look better than what I saw at the shootout. I just wonder if that panel was up to spec? I would tend to blame Samsung for not having a technical person there to make sure that set is functioning at spec. The guy who was there wasn't too good at explaining the technical aspects of either Samsung set.

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post #16 of 379 Old 09-15-2010, 05:19 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JWhip View Post

...
I believe the XBR was included in last's year's event or the one before, the XBR9 and it was a very poor performer, the worst of them all that year. I have been to all the shootouts and the Sony's have always been the laggard, until this year. The VT25 put the rest of the field to shame.

FYI - It was actually the XBR9 in last year's event that got dogged, not the XBR8. The XBR8 hasn't been involved in any of those events.
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post #17 of 379 Old 09-15-2010, 05:21 AM
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Originally Posted by BFJ 96 View Post

SONY wouldn't send the HX909 or the LX900. All the TV's shown except for the Sharp had a REP @ the event. Robert requested all the flagship displays from all the manufacturer's. What was displayed is what was sent.

Ahh... so if that's the case, point taken! I suppose that each company has their own strategy! Perhaps they'll (Sony) be more confident at next years show (have AUO start pumpin out FED displays for them to badge)!
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post #18 of 379 Old 09-15-2010, 05:46 AM
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So it looks like I'm grabbing a 65" VT25 as soon as it drops below $3k then.

And then of course I'll watch all of the "previously un-utilized kuro tech" be implemented, as well as a significant improvement in 3D playback in 10 months.

sigh. oh well.

James

Actual phone call (see pic to left):

 

Tech (responding to laughter): "I'm sorry sir, did I miss something?"

Me: "Yeah, a case of Diet Mountain Dew walking across my living room."

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post #19 of 379 Old 09-15-2010, 05:54 AM
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Anybody catch the whole decoder test flaw that Kevin talked about at the shootout? All the panels failed the test!!!! What I got was that none of the panels decoded 709 correctly. How could this be missed by the manufacturers for this long?

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post #20 of 379 Old 09-15-2010, 05:56 AM
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^ good question. Both of em'.

James

Actual phone call (see pic to left):

 

Tech (responding to laughter): "I'm sorry sir, did I miss something?"

Me: "Yeah, a case of Diet Mountain Dew walking across my living room."

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post #21 of 379 Old 09-15-2010, 06:55 AM
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I was at the shootout on Sunday. the panny had noticeable noise in it's picture. I prefer the Samsung over the panny. The LG LCD had a great picture aswell.

I would still go kuro if you can.

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post #22 of 379 Old 09-15-2010, 07:03 AM - Thread Starter
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Anybody catch the whole decoder test flaw that Kevin talked about at the shootout? All the panels failed the test!!!! What I got was that none of the panels decoded 709 correctly. How could this be missed by the manufacturers for this long?

Yes, I was there Saturday. I really don't understand the difficulties they are having, but you're right, none could properly decode Rec 709. They had trouble with 601 as well.


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post #23 of 379 Old 09-15-2010, 07:06 AM - Thread Starter
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I was at the shootout on Sunday. the panny had noticeable noise in it's picture. I prefer the Samsung over the panny. The LG LCD had a great picture aswell.

I would still go kuro if you can.

Yes on all acounts. I was staring at both the samsung & Panny side by side, and was hard pressed to see much of a difference. Same blacks, Panny was a little brighter in the mid-range, but according to the reports, the Samsung had better gamma.

If it were between the two, I'd probably save a few hundred and get the Sammy.


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post #24 of 379 Old 09-15-2010, 07:27 AM
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According to this new test pattern Joe Kane made (that no one else has yet) they all failed. To me this is very bizzare

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post #25 of 379 Old 09-15-2010, 07:38 AM
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Ok, I watched both days and have a couple of questions: the VT25 was flickering horribly (on my computer)-somebody said that is because of the way it was broadcast-if so, why wasn't the PNC8000 also flickering?
Did anybody notice the green border during motion of characters in Sin City on the C8000< or again maybe this was a transmission artifact, but why only on one set?
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post #26 of 379 Old 09-15-2010, 07:45 AM
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CNet did a write-up about the shootout. Guess it's big-time now:

http://news.cnet.com/8301-17938_105-...?tag=cnetRiver

Was Katzmeir there?
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post #27 of 379 Old 09-15-2010, 07:51 AM
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Sincity on bluray is definitely a torched test for TVs. I have to pick that up. I remembered that all the lcds looked horrible. I can't remember if the lg looked good on the sincity playback.

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post #28 of 379 Old 09-15-2010, 07:58 AM - Thread Starter
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Sincity on bluray is definitely a torched test for TVs. I have to pick that up. I remembered that all the lcds looked horrible. I can't remember if the lg looked good on the sincity playback.

It had a greenish/yellow tinge to it. Many suspected it may have been the coating on the glass.


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post #29 of 379 Old 09-15-2010, 08:07 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hhaller View Post

CNet did a write-up about the shootout. Guess it's big-time now:

http://news.cnet.com/8301-17938_105-...?tag=cnetRiver

Was Katzmeir there?

Cool. Even D-Nice is there after discovering panny's rising blacks. This link should be in the plasma thread
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post #30 of 379 Old 09-15-2010, 10:40 AM
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Can you summarize the results for us?

Here are all the results and pre and post calibration points. http://www.tweaktv.com/industry-news...-shootout.html
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