Plasma and motion handling problem. - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 24 Old 10-30-2010, 01:48 PM - Thread Starter
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I've readed and heared by many that plasma is the way to go to avoid motion blur or reducing it.

But my experience show me that motion handling can be a problem with plasma and some reading here tell me that i'm not alone. http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/searc...rchid=16143550

Before someone tell me, i know that motion blur can came from bad source, compressed signal, etc. and the blur can vary from one source to the other, so from there that's not the panel fault.

But my take going about gaming on plasma and i think it can be a good test for the panel (i'm not an avid gamer but when a game session occur i like it clean or mostly clean)


I get 2 set. Panny 42X1 (maybe 600 hours on)and panny 50G20(just finished 100 hours break-in slides). These 2 set are connected via component from xbox360 set at 720p, on game mode.( i've tried many many many picture setting)

I've tried every first person shooter i have to test my panel: Halo CE-2-3-Reach, Gears of war, Graw, Battlefield 1943, CoD,

Every games show motion blur when i slowly pan the camera, the image blur look like a splitted and dimmed image of the «*original*» if i pan before a non moving character i can see a faded ghost of him blended with. If i pan looking at a small glowing light i see 2 lights. Every straight line look bad when i move they are jaggy.

Can i have 2 bad panel!!!??? Is my problem came from component and hdmi will be the way to go?

I don't know what to think about that and why i'm getting this problem. :-(

I can easily accept some fuzzyness, it's a normal thing but not splitted/ghost images.

Please next time you'll go for a gaming on fps session take the time to pan and take a look at one thing at time. If you didn't notice what i'm talking about tell me if you're on component, hdmi, vga.

Also, i think my 42X1 perform better than my 50G20 at blur.(maybe a 768p panel with the 720p setting is easier to deal with)

If i remember well i think my good old crt show better overall for picture quality than my 2 plasma due the motion problems, i remember how it looked great...(too bad i gave it to someone last year)

Any thought about that? Maybe getting a panasonic tech at home...

These next 2 video show what it look like but not as bad as showed there:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qPBIETZLTNQ
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wLeZuP2RnSM

and this next one looked about the same as my problem:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rd4GzkBb42k

Thanks in advance if you take the time to answer and maybe help me to solve it :-)

Sorry if my english isn't always appear in HD...
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post #2 of 24 Old 10-30-2010, 02:42 PM
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This is judder from 30fps on plasma. You get the same on any kind of screen. You need interpolation (120/240Hz) technology to fix it and that is usually only found on LCD. ("600Hz" on plasma is not the same thing)

You can also get blue/green double-image on plasma caused by phosphor lag.
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post #3 of 24 Old 10-30-2010, 03:10 PM
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When you do a slow pan the shutter rate of the "camera" is very important since the longer it is open the wider(fatter) any threrefore bluerer any image will appear since it moved while the shutter was still open. Just like with a still camrea if you move while taking a picture at a slow shutter speed you get a blurry image.
This is evenvery hard to remove with frame intrpolation on a LCD display since creating a third image between two blurred images just creates another blured image.
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post #4 of 24 Old 10-30-2010, 03:19 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chronoptimist View Post

This is judder from 30fps on plasma. You get the same on any kind of screen. You need interpolation (120/240Hz) technology to fix it and that is usually only found on LCD. ("600Hz" on plasma is not the same thing)

You can also get blue/green double-image on plasma caused by phosphor lag.


But some people here says that they didn't get this problem with Halo reach on their plasma????( and from what i know it's a 30fps game) Almost every games are in 30fps... i'm hurry to try the new cod runnin at 60fps.

So if plasma get phosphor lag and games at 30fps look like double-imaged when panning, what's the deal playin on plasma panel? And what about the claim everywhere about plasma handling motion well and doing better than lcd?

All the background became like double-image, almost make me sick on the 50"panel make the whole thing look crappy.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zfqpVBvssuE

I've readed that added frame with 120hz and 240hz isn't a great deal(???)

If someone here can film a fps game that is clear on a plasma when panning please show me that it can be clear and i'll go exchange my bad(?) panel.

Sorry if my english isn't always appear in HD...
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post #5 of 24 Old 10-30-2010, 04:58 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by walford View Post

When you do a slow pan the shutter rate of the "camera" is very important since the longer it is open the wider(fatter) any threrefore bluerer any image will appear since it moved while the shutter was still open. Just like with a still camrea if you move while taking a picture at a slow shutter speed you get a blurry image.
This is evenvery hard to remove with frame intrpolation on a LCD display since creating a third image between two blurred images just creates another blured image.

I'm not sur to totaly understand your explanation...

I know what you mean related to photography but related to video, not sure. Surely a correlation between the two but...

My plasma panel rate is 60hz with a 30 fps game. My game is going to show 1 frame out of 2, so it's like being an opening camera shutter for 1 frame long for every 2 frames and appear blurry at that moment(???)

Sorry if my english isn't always appear in HD...
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post #6 of 24 Old 10-30-2010, 06:54 PM
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I admit I don't how your game(s) creates it's dispalys but at least you understand the motion blur exerience depends on how it does.
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post #7 of 24 Old 10-30-2010, 08:26 PM - Thread Starter
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Anyone can do the test trying hdmi(720p and 1080p) vs component (and maybe try vga vs other) on their xbox and tell me if it's blurrier with component.

Maybe people that had problem with motion blur are all on component and the ok people run on hdmi?

we'll see...

thanks!

Sorry if my english isn't always appear in HD...
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post #8 of 24 Old 10-31-2010, 03:54 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tchan View Post

But some people here says that they didn't get this problem with Halo reach on their plasma????( and from what i know it's a 30fps game) Almost every games are in 30fps... i'm hurry to try the new cod runnin at 60fps.

So if plasma get phosphor lag and games at 30fps look like double-imaged when panning, what's the deal playin on plasma panel? And what about the claim everywhere about plasma handling motion well and doing better than lcd?

All the background became like double-image, almost make me sick on the 50"panel make the whole thing look crappy.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zfqpVBvssuE

I've readed that added frame with 120hz and 240hz isn't a great deal(???)

If someone here can film a fps game that is clear on a plasma when panning please show me that it can be clear and i'll go exchange my bad(?) panel.

Its not that the problem isn't there, its that their not noticing the problem.

This is exactly the sort of thing 120/240Hz was created to fix. Plasma does not have good 120/240Hz which is why people that own them say its not important.

People with 120Hz sets will say 240Hz is not important but its a big difference.

It is not a bad panel. It is there with any screen that does not use interpolation. Depending on the screen technology it may be more or less obvious but the only fix is 120/240hz. Make sure if you buy a 240Hz set it is real 240Hz some is 120Hz with backlight scanning, Sonys Motionflow is true 240Hz.

The only problem is that interpolation can add a bit of lag to games but you have to decide between judder/lag theres no alternative.

Some interpolation can make everything look like things are moving in fast-forward but Motionflow has the option to just smooth it out and avoid that.
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post #9 of 24 Old 10-31-2010, 05:51 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chronoptimist View Post

Its not that the problem isn't there, its that their not noticing the problem.

It is not a bad panel. It is there with any screen that does not use interpolation. Depending on the screen technology it may be more or less obvious but the only fix is 120/240hz. Make sure if you buy a 240Hz set it is real 240Hz some is 120Hz with backlight scanning, Sonys Motionflow is true 240Hz.

Everyone i've showed that "problem" had seen it... my girlfriend too
I'm wondering why some not noticed that, it's easily detected.

And if CRT aren't using interpolation, why they did'nt show that.

I can't believe if it's a problem with every plasma panel, a lot of people says that it's awesome to play on a plasma panel. This blur fact ruin a great part of a great graphic experience for sure.

I really want to like my panels but they lost a lot of points if it's really always like that...

If i have the time to, i'll go at the store and try different plasma and lcd tv just to be sure.

thx chrono.

Sorry if my english isn't always appear in HD...
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post #10 of 24 Old 10-31-2010, 07:01 AM
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Component or HDMI should make not difference relative to motion blur since the resolution detail and refresh rate is the same, only the color quality may be different.
With Plasma an image is only on the screen about 60% of the time so the human mind integrates the two images and you do not get the motion blur you get with two LCD displays which always have an image on the screen due to their "Show and Hold" technolgy.
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post #11 of 24 Old 10-31-2010, 07:27 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by walford View Post

Component or HDMI should make not difference relative to motion blur since the resolution detail and refresh rate is the same, only the color quality may be different.
With Plasma an image is only on the screen about 60% of the time so the human mind integrates the two images and you do not get the motion blur you get with two LCD displays which always have an image on the screen due to their "Show and Hold" technolgy.

On the screen about 60% of the time? In motion?... are you talking about 2:3 pulldown(24fps movies)?

Is motion blur were talking about is exactly the same on plasma and lcd?

I'm not sure if motion blur is the exact term talking about this motion problem. It's more of a double image, splitted ghost image, exactly like on this video showed on my 1st post.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rd4GzkBb42k

When i listen to tv show/movies the problem sometime appear when camera pan but not on every show/movies so we can think, as mentionned before, that's the problem is a bad source. So, xbox, ps3 and new game aren't a great source if double image occur????( or really just a 30fps problem as talked before??)

Sorry if my english isn't always appear in HD...
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post #12 of 24 Old 10-31-2010, 08:43 AM
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I am not talking about 3:2 pulldown.
The Plasma pixels fade fast which there is only an image on the screen about 60% of the time. This is why most plasmas do not offer frame interpolatiion like LCDs do since your mind "invents" a the content between two frames when the plasma screen is blank.
I didn't watch your video since in no way would it look the same on my laptop screen since I would be receiving at the u tube resolution and frame rate which is completly differnt from your TV resolution and frame rate.
Following is a link you might find interesting:

http://www.electronichouse.com/artic...otion_blur/C10
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post #13 of 24 Old 10-31-2010, 09:37 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tchan View Post


IIt's more of a double image, splitted ghost image, exactly like on this video showed on my 1st post.

i'd go with Chronoptimist first answer. you're describing 30 fps judder exactly (repeat frames hit two different spots on a moving retina causing double images)... it destroys dynamic detail just as much as lcd blur. as mentioned, interpolation fixes it to a degree but the processing lag is not suitable for gaming imo. 60fps games are the fix but consoles often drop frames to rendering costs (try the 60fps wipeout demo which drops resolution instead of frames just to see what you're missing)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tchan View Post

So if plasma get phosphor lag and games at 30fps look like double-imaged when panning, what's the deal playin on plasma panel?

hype mostly. same with crt. when it comes to 30fps judder there is no acceptable fix. it's one reason i still play on pc
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post #14 of 24 Old 10-31-2010, 09:42 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by walford View Post

I am not talking about 3:2 pulldown.
The Plasma pixels fade fast which there is only an image on the screen about 60% of the time. This is why most plasmas do not offer frame interpolatiion like LCDs do since your mind "invents" a the content between two frames when the plasma screen is blank.
I didn't watch your video since in no way would it look the same on my laptop screen since I would be receiving at the u tube resolution and frame rate which is completly differnt from your TV resolution and frame rate.
Following is a link you might find interesting:

http://www.electronichouse.com/artic...otion_blur/C10

Appreciate your input walford :-)

You can take a look at the youtube video, i don't watch it on my plasma but on my laptop, surely look the same as i see it...

The pixel fade you talk about is like fast flipping page on a small animation book i.e. between frame on panel or page in case of the book mind "invent" a continuous movement from the last image to the new and son on. Right?.

But if i see a faded image of the original when i pan, is plasma don't fade fast enough?

Why CRT and DLP don't show that?

Sorry if my english isn't always appear in HD...
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post #15 of 24 Old 10-31-2010, 09:45 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by borf View Post

i'd go with Chronoptimist first answer. you're describing 30 fps judder exactly (repeat frames hit two different spots on a moving retina causing double images)... it destroys dynamic detail just as much as lcd blur. as mentioned, interpolation fixes it to a degree but the processing lag is not suitable for gaming imo. 60fps games are the fix but consoles often drop frames to rendering costs (try the 60fps wipeout demo which drops resolution instead of frames just to see what you're missing)



hype mostly. same with crt. when it comes to 30fps judder there is no acceptable fix. it's one reason i still play on pc

But playing on your PC mean playing on an lcd panel... or is every pc game can be put at 60fps?

And i didn't seen anything like i describe here on my old CRT.

Sorry if my english isn't always appear in HD...
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post #16 of 24 Old 10-31-2010, 10:35 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tchan View Post

But playing on your PC mean playing on an lcd panel... or is every pc game can be put at 60fps?


i cant use lcd for gaming. personally i set my crt @ 75hz (avoids flicker) and as long as the pc maintains 75fps in v-sync... judder, blur & lag are completely eliminated for all practical purposes - it doesn't get any better than that. with graphic intensive pc games i'll lower the resolution, fps ect as much as i have to in order to maintain v-sync.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tchan View Post

And i didn't seen anything like i describe here on my old CRT.

i played a few years without noticing it but i got fussier with age.
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post #17 of 24 Old 10-31-2010, 10:44 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tchan View Post

Everyone i've showed that "problem" had seen it... my girlfriend too
I'm wondering why some not noticed that, it's easily detected.

And if CRT aren't using interpolation, why they did'nt show that.

My CRT shows it all the time with 30fps games (at 60Hz) and 24p films. (at 72Hz)

The only fix is interpolation. (or natively running at 60+ fps but you have no say in it with consoles)

Interpolation has its own drawbacks though (input lag and artifacts) but it has to be one or the other. You either interpolate or have judder. (or spend $2000 on a PC and play at 60+ fps)
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post #18 of 24 Old 10-31-2010, 11:01 AM - Thread Starter
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Well everyone... now a i have to pick my poison with 30fps games and just buy 60fps ones. CoD black ops will run at 60fps, j'm hurry to see it, don't know if it will be at a steady 60fps.

Ok thanks everyone for your input, it's appearing more clear to me.

So, every video of Halo reach i see on youtube are presented via lcd using interpolation to avoid that double-image?

Sorry if my english isn't always appear in HD...
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post #19 of 24 Old 10-31-2010, 01:44 PM - Thread Starter
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I've mentionned tried CoD in my 1st post, but surely not cause i've just tried CoD3 and motion/panning look a lot better than halo, sometime framerate drop and at that time it look blurrier-double imaged when panning.

I assume that CoD3 run at 60fps.

Just another point, some read here tell that DLP panel don't suffer from motion blur what are their refresh rate? Just curious...

Sorry if my english isn't always appear in HD...
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post #20 of 24 Old 10-31-2010, 03:01 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tchan View Post

Just another point, some read here tell that DLP panel don't suffer from motion blur what are their refresh rate? Just curious...

DLP does suffer from motion blur and color breakup.
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post #21 of 24 Old 10-31-2010, 04:52 PM
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DLP 3D TV can only display 960x1080@60fps. Motion blur on a 3D DLP TV will depend ont the glases being used.
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post #22 of 24 Old 10-31-2010, 08:05 PM
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I think a few clarifications IMHO:

1) gaming or PC rendered images are NOT blur, insufficient detail possibly, but not blur. They are not the same as movie where the source can be blur due to director's intention. In fact they can be too sharp that creates blur when objects are moving in low fps. LCD solve this by interpolating but that induces lag and soap opera effect but is perfectly fine for fake rendered images anyway.

2) low fps will create motion blur/judder when in pan... in ANY displays. CRT has 10% duty cycle vs plasma with 30% and LCD almost 100%. Hence CRT should look better when panning in low fps.

We had an interesting discussion on this issue in this thread:
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...1285072&page=2
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post #23 of 24 Old 11-01-2010, 06:00 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by specuvestor View Post


We had an interesting discussion on this issue in this thread:
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...1285072&page=2


Oh nice! thanks spec!! that's the thread i need to read,really interesting!!

Sorry if my english isn't always appear in HD...
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post #24 of 24 Old 01-10-2013, 07:08 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by borf View Post


i'd go with Chronoptimist first answer. you're describing 30 fps judder exactly (repeat frames hit two different spots on a moving retina causing double images)... it destroys dynamic detail just as much as lcd blur. as mentioned, interpolation fixes it to a degree but the processing lag is not suitable for gaming imo. 60fps games are the fix but consoles often drop frames to rendering costs (try the 60fps wipeout demo which drops resolution instead of frames just to see what you're missing)

hype mostly. same with crt. when it comes to 30fps judder there is no acceptable fix. it's one reason i still play on pc

Doesn't the plasmas convert it to another refresh rate?

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