Backlight blinking (black frame insertion) reduces LCD motion blur - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 43 Old 12-30-2010, 07:02 AM - Thread Starter
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I've had a Samsung A650 120Hz LCD for 2 years. The motion blur always bothered me, particularly on Comcast's HD broadcasts, for which I have to enable AMP (soap opera motion smoothing). I can leave it off for Blu-Rays, but the blur still bothers me at times.

Just got a new Panasonic 42D2, which has backlight blinking, inserts black frames between frames. Amazingly, motion blur is much better, it's plasma-like with motion smoothing disabled.

I assume this is due to the backlight blinking, which reduces image retension in the retina. Anyone have a similar experience?
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post #2 of 43 Old 12-30-2010, 09:09 AM
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I never heard of a Panasonic 120Hz LCd using BFI.

I used BFI for a while on my TV but stopped using it because of its negative impact on PQ.

http://www.presentationtek.com/2010/...ing-backlight/

http://reviews.cnet.com/240hz-lcd-tv...-need-to-know/
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post #3 of 43 Old 12-30-2010, 02:48 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 8mile13 View Post

I never heard of a Panasonic 120Hz LCd using BFI.

I used BFI for a while on my TV but stopped using it because of its negative impact on PQ.

http://www.presentationtek.com/2010/...ing-backlight/

http://reviews.cnet.com/240hz-lcd-tv...-need-to-know/

D2 is the first to use it. It's mentioned on Panasonic's site, and also in this review:

http://www.flatpanelshd.com/review.p...&id=1286783229

Quote:
The response time on Panasonic D28 is fast, primarily because of the scanning backlight technology (Panasonic calls it backlight blinking). I have talked about scanning backlight in previous reviews but to sum it up scanning backlight can improve response time drastically because the technology reduces the sample-and-hold effect on LCD-TV which is a major source of trailing and blurring on motion.

Therefore I also experienced very little blurring on motion with Panasonic D28 / D2. In sport and action scenes the picture is well defined and detailed.

I did some testing on Panasonic D28 / D2 and found that scanning backlight is enabled even though I deactivate the IFC (Intelligent Frame Creation) which is very positive. This means that you get the fast response time even without the IFC.

Which TV did you have and what was the problem with it?
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post #4 of 43 Old 12-30-2010, 03:27 PM
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Scanning Backlight is not Black Frame Insertaion. Although the two techniques attept to solve the same motion blur problem on 2D content and on 3D on the 240 Hz 3D models.
Does the 120Hz 2D model give you a choice of using Frame Interpolation for 60 Hz content, 5:5 pulldown for 24 fps content, or backlight scanning for 60Hz content?
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post #5 of 43 Old 12-30-2010, 03:45 PM
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Yo can check out this thread to understand more about motion blur and different LCD techniques
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1285072
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post #6 of 43 Old 12-30-2010, 06:18 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by walford View Post

Scanning Backlight is not Black Frame Insertaion. Although the two techniques attept to solve the same motion blur problem on 2D content and on 3D on the 240 Hz 3D models.
Does the 120Hz 2D model give you a choice of using Frame Interpolation for 60 Hz content, 5:5 pulldown for 24 fps content, or backlight scanning for 60Hz content?

How's it different? This is a high-speed sequence of images of the D2's scanning backlight, you can clearly see the black frame inserted.

http://www.flatpanelshd.com/pictures...28_large20.jpg

The D2 seems to have backlight scanning on all the time, while you can disable frame interpolation for any content, 24p or 60Hz. I haven't it disabled for everything.
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post #7 of 43 Old 12-30-2010, 06:42 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by specuvestor View Post

Yo can check out this thread to understand more about motion blur and different LCD techniques
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1285072

Good stuff, thanks. I'd read page 1 before, but not the black frame insertion discussion.

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Originally Posted by walford View Post

Does the 120Hz 2D model give you a choice of using Frame Interpolation for 60 Hz content, 5:5 pulldown for 24 fps content, or backlight scanning for 60Hz content?

Is there any reason you couldn't use BFI on 24p content with 5:5 pulldown? You could do 4 frames, then 1 black, 24 times/second?
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post #8 of 43 Old 12-30-2010, 07:39 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by VarmintCong View Post

D2 is the first to use it. It's mentioned on Panasonic's site, and also in this review:

http://www.flatpanelshd.com/review.p...&id=1286783229



Which TV did you have and what was the problem with it?

XBR8,
its called Motionflow Clear,it looked better than Motion Interpolation.
The ''problem'' is that the picture will look dimmer and duller when using it,for compensation you must raise Backlight 4/5 points http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1269915 but then it still looks dimmer and duller than Motionflow OFF .

On the XBR HX909 its called Clear2 http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showp...&postcount=179 ,Clear1 which is also BFI does a better job but you still have to raise Backlight.
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post #9 of 43 Old 12-31-2010, 06:57 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by VarmintCong View Post

Is there any reason you couldn't use BFI on 24p content with 5:5 pulldown? You could do 4 frames, then 1 black, 24 times/second?

Interesting concept but it could not be used on a set that uses Backlight Scanning instead of true BFI.
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post #10 of 43 Old 12-31-2010, 07:46 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by walford View Post

Interesting concept but it could not be used on a set that uses Backlight Scanning instead of true BFI.

Not sure what you mean - how can an edge-lit LED have a scanning backlight? I assume the D2 only turns the backlight off and on, which is effectively true BFI, no?

From what I've read, backlight scannning + BFI is most effective, but I don't think this TV is doing that.

Regardless, the motion is better than our Samsung A650, so it's doing something right.
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post #11 of 43 Old 01-01-2011, 07:02 AM
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How the screen backlit Edge or Full array does not preclude the use of either BFI or scanning backlighting. Since BFI actually creates a frame that it totally black and Backlight scanning pulses the display on and off.
The following is also interesting about backlight scanning:

http://www.pcmag.com/article2/0,2817,2338779,00.asp
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post #12 of 43 Old 01-01-2011, 07:30 AM
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These are techniques to reduce sample and hold motion blur of LCD as discussed in the link I posted earlier.

Conceptually backlight scanning/ strobbing if implemented properly should be superior to MCFI for motion blur reduction, esp those who dislike SOE. I don't believe the brain can effectively "see" above 120 Hz in any case.
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post #13 of 43 Old 01-01-2011, 08:27 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by specuvestor View Post

I don't believe the brain can effectively "see" above 120 Hz in any case.

As far as fluid motion, yes. But decreased hold time continues to be perceived well above 120fps. In effect, blur decreases the higher you go but where the stopping point is i dunno. Common sense says 240fps (or around there) since the brain can't even see images lasting shorter than ~4ms (according the the often quoted air force study). But somehow i doubt that because there are some 480hz lcds and crt (with the best motion) has even lower hold times.
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post #14 of 43 Old 01-01-2011, 08:59 AM
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In science brain studies are conducted under sterile conditons ,science has no grip on the brains real world performance.
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post #15 of 43 Old 01-01-2011, 09:46 AM
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The main obstacle to effective implementation of backlight scanning/bfi has always been and continues to be low frame rates. At 24-60 fps, the long blanking interval needed to reduce hold type motion blur simply produces too much flicker. If broadcast/cinema for example were 75-85fps (above flicker perception) we are allowed to use the full effect of scanning/bfi to eliminate blur (lcd would need slightly better pixel response time too i think). As it is now they use interpolation to raise the deplorable frame rate (getting rid of flicker) before applying backlight scanning/bfi. This is why you never see backlight scanning/bfi used without interpolation (anymore)

In short we don't need 120 fps or 240 fps or 480 fps, super fast pixel response times, frame interpolation, or high speed backlight syncronization to get rid of motion blur. Its a lot of unneeded/expensive processing. 75-85fps is enough to completely eliminate motion blur if backlight scanning/bfi is used but they first need to bump up the framerates from 24/60 fps to get rid of the flicker that would occur.
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post #16 of 43 Old 01-01-2011, 03:20 PM
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Don't confuse the about 70fps response time required to reduce flicker on CRT TV screens caused by the picture content fading from the screen so fast with flicker caued by low frame rate on LCD screens which use show and hold technology which exhibit no flicker for 60 HZ TVs and the users in countries with 50Hz don't notice any flicker at 50HZ. US users do see some flicker at 48 HZ and certainly see it at 24fps.
Movie theaters display 24fps film content using a 48fps shutter rate to reduce frame rate flicker.
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post #17 of 43 Old 01-01-2011, 06:22 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by borf View Post

The main obstacle to effective implementation of backlight scanning/bfi has always been and continues to be low frame rates. At 24-60 fps, the long blanking interval needed to reduce hold type motion blur simply produces too much flicker. If broadcast/cinema for example were 75-85fps (above flicker perception) we are allowed to use the full effect of scanning/bfi to eliminate blur (lcd would need slightly better pixel response time too i think). As it is now they use interpolation to raise the deplorable frame rate (getting rid of flicker) before applying backlight scanning/bfi. This is why you never see backlight scanning/bfi used without interpolation (anymore)

You see it on the D2, it still does backlight blinking with interpolation off, proven in the review I linked already. I'd guess a lot of other TVs do too, if not all of them.
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post #18 of 43 Old 01-01-2011, 06:26 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by walford View Post

How the screen backlit Edge or Full array does not preclude the use of either BFI or scanning backlighting. Since BFI actually creates a frame that it totally black and Backlight scanning pulses the display on and off.
The following is also interesting about backlight scanning:

http://www.pcmag.com/article2/0,2817,2338779,00.asp

backlight scanning is when a section of the backlight turns off, not the entire thing at once. Similar to a CRT. This isn't possible on edge-lit LED panels. It could be some are misusing the term.
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post #19 of 43 Old 01-01-2011, 06:28 PM
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You are confusing local dimming backlighting with entier screen backlighting.
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post #20 of 43 Old 01-01-2011, 06:46 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by walford View Post

You are confusing local dimming backlighting with entier screen backlighting.

True backlight scanning requires a locally dimming backlight. But I think manufacturers, like in the link you posted, are not distinguishing scanning vs blinking. There should be a way to distinguish whether the panel just blinks on and off, or scans a black line down the screen. The latter is a better method in theory because you don't lose brightness, but requires local dimming.

But some manufacturers seem to call both methods backlight scanning.

Panasonic properly calls it backlight blinking.
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post #21 of 43 Old 01-02-2011, 12:14 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by VarmintCong View Post

You see it on the D2, it still does backlight blinking with interpolation off, proven in the review I linked already. I'd guess a lot of other TVs do too, if not all of them.

i am corrected. but scanning between frame repeats is not the most "effective implementation" of scanning/bfi. to completely eliminate blur, you really need interpolated or *temporally distinct frames from the source*. otherwise repeat frames will add to hold time. i would guess they added this option to appease those who don't like interpolation and prefer the look of plasma (this set seems to operate a lot like plasma).
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post #22 of 43 Old 01-02-2011, 12:51 AM
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It is difficult to know if a TV actually features backlight scanning/blinking.

I reviewed the 37V20 not so long ago and the scanning effect was caused by the operating (pulse) frequency of LEDs (much like CCFL), which can be controlled by adjusting the contrast and power save settings.

It also produced doubling effect where each moving edge is companied by ghost edge due to mismatch between LCD and LED operational frequency. TBH, it's not that surprising due to LCD's various pixel response.

PS: Does the US version has IFC under set-up?


http://www.hdtvtest.co.uk/news/panas...0100910848.htm


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post #23 of 43 Old 01-02-2011, 02:04 AM
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+1 I am highly skeptical of the airforce experiment being duplicated in a say hypothetical 240Hz CoD gamplay to identify the aircraft. Heuristics will not allow the pilots' brains to be able to focus on such insignificant split second images.

Same reason why I think $5 HDMI cable and $100 one will be perceived the same. Random uncorrected digital errors on the $5 cable cannot be perceived by the eye nor brain.

Quote:
Originally Posted by 8mile13
In science brain studies are conducted under sterile conditons ,science has no grip on the brains real world performance.
You need to differentiate between content fps and Hz. Increasing display Hz (which involve response time, backlight scanning etc) will help reduce LCD motion blur but not low framerate blur which is inherent for both plasma and LCD. That is another reason for using MCFI if you are not objectionable to SOE. The best solution is of course to have 60fps or more native content, starting from 720p60.

Quote:
Originally Posted by borf
The main obstacle to effective implementation of backlight scanning/bfi has always been and continues to be low frame rates. At 24-60 fps, the long blanking interval needed to reduce hold type motion blur simply produces too much flicker. If broadcast/cinema for example were 75-85fps (above flicker perception) we are allowed to use the full effect of scanning/bfi to eliminate blur (lcd would need slightly better pixel response time too i think). As it is now they use interpolation to raise the deplorable frame rate (getting rid of flicker) before applying backlight scanning/bfi. This is why you never see backlight scanning/bfi used without interpolation (anymore)

In short we don't need 120 fps or 240 fps or 480 fps, super fast pixel response times, frame interpolation, or high speed backlight syncronization to get rid of motion blur. Its a lot of unneeded/expensive processing. 75-85fps is enough to completely eliminate motion blur if backlight scanning/bfi is used but they first need to bump up the framerates from 24/60 fps to get rid of the flicker that would occur.
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post #24 of 43 Old 01-02-2011, 04:47 AM
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Low frame rate doesn't induce blur. The fault lies with the human eye.

When major brands release visual augmentation for humans, we should all upgrade.


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post #25 of 43 Old 01-02-2011, 05:46 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nielo TM View Post
It is difficult to know if a TV actually features backlight scanning/blinking.

I reviewed the 37V20 not so long ago and the scanning effect was caused by the operating (pulse) frequency of LEDs (much like CCFL), which can be controlled by adjusting the contrast and power save settings.

It also produced doubling effect where each moving edge is companied by ghost edge due to mismatch between LCD and LED operational frequency. TBH, it's not that surprising due to LCD's various pixel response.

PS: Does the US version has IFC under set-up?


http://www.hdtvtest.co.uk/news/panas...0100910848.htm
Does Panasonic advertise backlight blinking for that model? I'm not sure we have that model in the US - I think the UK equivalent of mine is the D28. I haven't noticed that, but may not know what to look for.

I'm away from home so can't confirm, but I think the D2 calls it IFC, and has only an off, low and strong setting if I remember.
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post #26 of 43 Old 01-02-2011, 06:03 AM
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The UK version of 42D25 is advertised to have backlight blinking. But upon testing, it only produced 300 lines with IFC disabled (akin to many standard 60Hz LCD). So blinking has no effect (no surprise there)

With IFC enabled, it is produced 800 lines as advertised. But IFC is basically unified MCFI. By unified I meant it doesn't allow users to select between smoothing low-motion contents (e.g. films) and reducing blur. So enabling IFC automatically induces soap effect.

http://www.hdtvtest.co.uk/news/panas...0100430437.htm


PS: I'm sure the 37V20 is advertised to have blinking, but this year's Panasonic sets have been disappointing to tell you the truth. Panasonic should just focus on the PDP devision and sell the LCD to either Hitachi or Tosh.


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post #27 of 43 Old 01-02-2011, 06:19 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nielo TM View Post
The UK version of 42D25 is advertised to have backlight blinking. But upon testing, it only produced 300 lines with IFC disabled (akin to many standard 60Hz LCD). So blinking has no effect (no surprise there)

With IFC enabled, it is produced 800 lines as advertised. But IFC is basically unified MCFI. By unified I meant it doesn't allow users to select between smoothing low-motion contents (e.g. films) and reducing blur. So enabling IFC automatically induces soap effect.

http://www.hdtvtest.co.uk/news/panas...0100430437.htm
Thanks, CNET said something similar about the Samsung 240Hz with backlight blinking, although it did help a bit with motion interpolation on.

Quote:
Samsung's UNB8500 only achieved this mark when we engaged both the Auto Motion Pro 240Hz (any position aside from "Off") and LED Motion Plus functions. Disabling the latter softened motion resolution somewhat on our test pattern, scoring the standard 240Hz mark of between 900 and 1,080 lines. Adjusting the Blur Reduction slider between 0 and 10 affected motion resolution accordingly; we preferred 10, which gave the best results. Turning off the 240Hz processing entirely left the TV at the standard LCD mark of between 300 and 400 lines, regardless of whether we engaged LED motion plus.

Read more: http://reviews.cnet.com/flat-panel-t...#ixzz19t5NpqmK
I do see a big improvement in blur on Comcast HD with the Panasonic vs our Samsung, and I've always suspected something was wrong with Comcast's source, so maybe the blinking is helping that. I'll have to watch some Blu-rays to see if they are any better.
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post #28 of 43 Old 01-02-2011, 06:21 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nielo TM View Post
PS: I'm sure the 37V20 is advertised to have blinking, but this year's Panasonic sets have been disappointing to tell you the truth. Panasonic should just focus on the PDP devision and sell the LCD to either Hitachi or Tosh.
I'm very happy with mine, but in the sub 40" category, choices were very limited. I wanted 120Hz for the 24p playback, and I think the only choice was Panny or Vizio.
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post #29 of 43 Old 01-02-2011, 06:24 AM
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I believe the difference is due to pixel response. IPS pixels respond much faster than S-PVA. so much so it's often imporrible to fault it.

So when you combine it with IFC and blinking, it helps to create plasma like motion.

On the negative side, IPS has the worst black level. the best IPS today is equivalent to 2005/2006 VA panel.


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post #30 of 43 Old 01-02-2011, 06:27 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by VarmintCong View Post
I'm very happy with mine, but in the sub 40" category, choices were very limited. I wanted 120Hz for the 24p playback, and I think the only choice was Panny or Vizio.
In that case, Panny is the best to opt for.

Since the Japanese economy went into rescission, thing haven't been bright for Panasonic. So much so they were forced to contract panels from LG to use on their LED-LCD models.

Hopefully they'll finish constructing the new plant soon and reclaim their glory.


PS: I'm still waiting for the Neo-LCD


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