4k by 2k or Quad HD...lots of rumors? thoughts? - Page 4 - AVS Forum
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post #91 of 3692 Old 03-31-2011, 10:46 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rogo View Post

I have a very tough time believing TV mfrs. that have multiple sources for all the parts they need for a TV are even contemplating going to ATI or Nvidia anytime. Why would they mess with what works and even up spending likely more money?

rogo we had a discussion in another thread on interlacing for broadcast and Nielo's point was that it is irrelevant broadcasting in interlace or progressive as GPU are powerful enough to correct the artifacts in de-interlacing.

I think the 2010 VP has work cut out for them as they are not working "perfectly" while eager to see how the 2011 VP turn out, especially for Panny
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post #92 of 3692 Old 04-01-2011, 06:50 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by specuvestor View Post

rogo we had a discussion in another thread on interlacing for broadcast and Nielo's point was that it is irrelevant broadcasting in interlace or progressive as GPU are powerful enough to correct the artifacts in de-interlacing.

I think the 2010 VP has work cut out for them as they are not working "perfectly" while eager to see how the 2011 VP turn out, especially for Panny

To my knowledge, not one general purpose GPU matches the deinterlacing of purpose-built chips -- esp. the better ones.

There is no difference in HDMI cables. If you can see the picture without visible dropouts or sparklies, the cable is working at 100%. No other cable will display a better version of that picture. You're simply wrong if you think there is a better digital cable than one that is already working.
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post #93 of 3692 Old 04-01-2011, 07:26 PM
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We weren't taking about the GPUs. We were walking about the VPs embedded with the GPU die (UVD and PureVideo). .

Unfortunately neither ATI or NVIDIA improved the de-interlacing algorithm in the past 5 years. ATI de-interlacing is still based on Vector Adaptive, which is amazing even to this day.


PS: Except for the 2010 Samsung Valencia processor, I don't know of any other processor that can match the ATI's UVD in terms of de-interlacing

http://www.hothardware.com/articleim...m1120/hqv2.png


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post #94 of 3692 Old 04-03-2011, 09:49 PM
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^^err actually I thought we were talking about GPU... I wasn't even thinking of any VP embedded in the GPU.

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...7#post20084797

So are you saying the TV chips are better than GPUs as VPs at this point of time? I am genuinely confused by rogo's statement as I thought Nielo is implying otherwise. And I do not think the majority of 2010 VPs pass cadence test, inverse telecine, etc with flying colors else there will be little use for external processors. Like I said, even Oppo gave up doing inverse telecine in their BDP93.

Which links to how can we say we can be indifferent with i/p transmission? We know that some stations actually scale their 4:3 interlaced transmission to fit 16:9, that is not going to make deinterlacing easier at the receiving backend.

Quote:
Originally Posted by rogo View Post

To my knowledge, not one general purpose GPU matches the deinterlacing of purpose-built chips -- esp. the better ones.

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post #95 of 3692 Old 04-04-2011, 03:49 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by specuvestor View Post

^^err actually I thought we were talking about GPU... I wasn't even thinking of any VP embedded in the GPU.

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...7#post20084797


All Radeon and Geforce GPUs launched since 2006 feature interdependent VPU (Video Processing Unit) embedded within the die. ATI calls it AVIVO/UVD and NVIDIA calls it PureVideo/PureVideo HD. I thought you knew, which is why I didn't mentioned it.

BTW, those VPs are exclusive to GPUs. So when someone mention GPU (in the context of video processing), they mean the embedded VPU.

Processing video solely on the GPU is very difficult and requires advanced software and extensive user configuration (unless it is done at the hardware level governed by the VP). Before ATI and NVIDIA introduced VPU, obtaning high quality image from GPU was extremely difficult. So most people opted to utilize the CPU instead of the GPU.
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Originally Posted by specuvestor View Post

So are you saying the TV chips are better than GPUs as VPs at this point of time? I am genuinely confused by rogo's statement as I thought Nielo is implying otherwise. And I do not think the majority of 2010 VPs pass cadence test, inverse telecine, etc with flying colors else there will be little use for external processors. Like I said, even Oppo gave up doing inverse telecine in their BDP93.

Which links to how can we say we can be indifferent with i/p transmission? We know that some stations actually scale their 4:3 interlaced transmission to fit 16:9, that is not going to make deinterlacing easier at the receiving backend.

All 2009/2010 Samsung we reviewed passed 2:3 and the ones with Valencia processor passed 2:2 (which is more difficult detect). All 2010 Sony TVs we reviewed passed 2:2 and 2:3 (and all 09 models passed 2:3).

LG and Philips didn't preform so well and Panasonic completely failed the test. However, 2011 Panasonic can in fact detect and correctly process 2:2 and 2:3

Modern GPU's can detect and process much more than just 2:2 and 2:3. It is why certain users opt for HTPC instead of investing in expensive dedicated video processors.

http://www.xbitlabs.com/articles/vid...hd6850_11.html


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post #96 of 3692 Old 04-10-2011, 05:10 PM
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LOL

I completely forgot about the Toshiba Cell TV


It is the first TV to feature CPU-GPU. So it already started to happen.


PS: Yes, the Cell is a form of GPU. The 6 SPEs can be used for vector processing (to render high-quality 3D graphics).


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post #97 of 3692 Old 04-10-2011, 09:20 PM
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I'm a bit confused about the Toshiba cell whether it is considered a dual role CPU-GPU. The PS3 uses Cell CPU with Nvidia GPU IIRC. Which also sort of make you wonder why not utilise the inbuilt VP in the GPU then ie anecdotally VP and GPU are still very distinct purpose processors to the engineers /designers.

If your projection of GPU progress over time is correct we should see better performance PER WATT out of this Toshiba Cell TV.
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post #98 of 3692 Old 04-11-2011, 02:52 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by specuvestor View Post

I'm a bit confused about the Toshiba cell whether it is considered a dual role CPU-GPU. The PS3 uses Cell CPU with Nvidia GPU IIRC. Which also sort of make you wonder why not utilise the inbuilt VP in the GPU then ie anecdotally VP and GPU are still very distinct purpose processors to the engineers /designers.

I don't know if the PS3's RSX features an VPU within the GPU (akin to the X360's Xenon). Because all the video processing is done on the Cell via specially written software.

Without the Cell, the graphics of PS3 would have been significantly inferior to the X360. The SPEs can be programmed to process number of tasks such 3D render, AI, physics etc. But unfortunately, the developers have to develop their own set of tools to optimize the cell (unless someone create a highly efficient pipeline). That's why only a handful of games look better on the PS3 (and all of which are 1st party titles).

Simply put, the Cell is a unique processor. It has characteristics of both CPU and GPU. But it doesn't feature on-board VPU. So everything has to be done on the software level.

Quote:
Originally Posted by specuvestor View Post

If your projection of GPU progress over time is correct we should see better performance PER WATT out of this Toshiba Cell TV.

As it turned out that's excatly what AMD have done with fusion (8-18W).


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post #99 of 3692 Old 04-11-2011, 03:50 AM
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Yes we talked about Fusion above, but the proof has to be in the pudding ie market acceptance by the TV manufacturers.
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post #100 of 3692 Old 04-11-2011, 09:42 AM
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Totally

It all depends on how people respond to SmartTVs. But if manufactures continue to push the tech (or include it as standard), then CPU-GPU will eventually find their way in ^_^.


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post #101 of 3692 Old 05-11-2011, 09:15 PM
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Youtube just opened a streaming video rental service with support for resolutions of up to 4K...

Hell ya!



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post #102 of 3692 Old 05-12-2011, 02:18 AM
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Support for 4k... but something north of 90% of the rental of the rentals are SD quality.

There is no difference in HDMI cables. If you can see the picture without visible dropouts or sparklies, the cable is working at 100%. No other cable will display a better version of that picture. You're simply wrong if you think there is a better digital cable than one that is already working.
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post #103 of 3692 Old 05-12-2011, 04:47 PM
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....and you have an internet connection that would permit streaming at that resolution?
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post #104 of 3692 Old 05-14-2011, 03:16 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rogo View Post

Support for 4k... but something north of 90% of the rental of the rentals are SD quality.

I actually meant to post this in the 4k TV thread i was reading earlier, so this was kind of a mis-post. Cant find that one now, grr.

Yeah, im mainly excited for the added incentive for TV manufacturers to produces higher resolution displays since my 46" 3D TV is 3' away from me being used as a computer monitor.

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....and you have an internet connection that would permit streaming at that resolution?

Yup, standard cable here in Seattle Wa. A little buffering and off we go... You can try it on Youtube youself.


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post #105 of 3692 Old 05-14-2011, 03:19 PM
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Can't wait for 60" 4096x2160 screens to be available at a good price!

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post #106 of 3692 Old 05-14-2011, 10:36 PM
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I'm guessing the next big thing will be 2560x1080 panels for projectors and maybe flat panels. Mitsubishi kinda leaked the rumor for projectors, they use Sony SXRD panels and a Sony friend has told me to watch for something exciting at Cedia.

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post #107 of 3692 Old 05-15-2011, 06:21 AM
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A Panny employee over on HDJ has suggested we will see 4k panels in a few years. No details of course.
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post #108 of 3692 Old 05-16-2011, 11:22 AM
 
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RE: streaming. Just like iTunes (etc) rendered CDs obsolete, right? Oh wait. That isnt happening. Yes, streaming is and always will be more popular, but people will always want to own physical media, and eventually BRD will replace DVD (vested studio interest). BRD isnt going anywhere.

4k in the home? No point. The extra resolution holds no benefit for most and very little benefit for even those on the fringe who own projectors. That said, it will give the Jonses' neighbors something to lust after and will continue to fill manufacturers' pockets. Gotta love the human condion.
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post #109 of 3692 Old 05-16-2011, 11:58 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jmpage2 View Post
4K is only going to matter for you if you are buying an extremely large size TV and sitting very close to it.

Or, buying a projector.
Large size 70inch plus. And passive 3d requires 4k to do 1080p3d. Other than that meh whatev.

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post #110 of 3692 Old 05-17-2011, 10:27 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nielo TM View Post

Totally

It all depends on how people respond to SmartTVs. But if manufactures continue to push the tech (or include it as standard), then CPU-GPU will eventually find their way in ^_^.

Nielo TM:
Very interesting info. There is a very lively discussion going on in the XBox Area of this Forum in a thread titled "Microsoft fires the First Shot in Nexgen Consoles". I pasted some of your comments about Quad HD over there as reference. I gave you and specuvestor pretty good props on your knowledge about the subject. You may want to take a peek at that interesting thread if you haven't already done so. And chime in if it ticlkles your fancy. Don't leap however if you're thin skinned. Because the thread has a healthy number of serious bomb throwers.
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post #111 of 3692 Old 05-23-2011, 02:24 PM
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post #112 of 3692 Old 05-25-2011, 07:25 PM
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11" OLED TVs... ( or 9.9" OLED TV, if you prefer that size)

2560x1600 resolution tablet...

144" OLED display

now 8K displays....(to replace your 4k....)

don't get me started on flexible and transparent displays...

They're missing the mark[et] i'd say, but i'm still glad they made it.


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post #113 of 3692 Old 06-08-2011, 01:50 PM
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Now this is pixel density... .8-inch 1280 x 1024 LCD panels and a 2048 x 1536 panel in the works that the company claims can deliver visuals nigh-indistinguishable from the real world.
http://www.engadget.com/2011/06/08/r...-powered-by-p/

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post #114 of 3692 Old 06-10-2011, 08:27 PM
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last one
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post #115 of 3692 Old 06-13-2011, 08:46 AM
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If indeed this worthless (for "smaller displays, anyway) resolution ends up coming to panels 60" and smalller, I for one will be interested in seeing how a 1080 feed looks on them compared to a native 1080 panel. Surely such a sig upscaling has its PQ hurdles?

Clearly broadcast television won't be zooming past 1080 anytime soon...hell, who knows when we'll see 1080P broadcasts, if ever.

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post #116 of 3692 Old 06-13-2011, 09:04 AM
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broadcast tv and full res 1080p will not happen for decades if ever.

given the financial investment involved, and consumer acceptance to date,
i don't think any pq improvements from the various networks will appear
any time soon, we will just have to look to new tech hardware, i.e. tablets,
if you want to see any upgrades in hd pq for many years

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post #117 of 3692 Old 06-13-2011, 11:58 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by xrox View Post

Panasonic has a 4K2K display on the market.

http://panasonic.net/proplasma/products/

Recent journals suggest they are trying new cell structures for enabling 4K2K in various sizes.

This must be an up-convert type processing because the only way you will obtain a 4kx2k resolution source is via a movie theater master copy from the studio. And if you had that without authorization, you could get into some hot water as the studios protect that stuff more closely than the film shipped to movie theaters. The reason is that a digital master copy sent to digital theaters has the danger of being copied, then duplicated, which is why hollywood resisted all-digital (video) theaters for years when they should have been widespread in the 1990's like the audio streams on the film soundtracks were.
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post #118 of 3692 Old 06-17-2011, 06:42 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mr. wally View Post

broadcast tv and full res 1080p will not happen for decades if ever.

given the financial investment involved, and consumer acceptance to date,
i don't think any pq improvements from the various networks will appear
any time soon, we will just have to look to new tech hardware, i.e. tablets,
if you want to see any upgrades in hd pq for many years

In the UK, we do have access to 1080p content. But the TV needs to support 2:2 (reverse-pull-down).

BBC also broadcast 1080p25 via FreeSat.


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post #119 of 3692 Old 06-18-2011, 06:18 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nielo TM View Post

In the UK, we do have access to 1080p content. But the TV needs to support 2:2 (reverse-pull-down).

BBC also broadcast 1080p25 via FreeSat.

The BBC changed its BBC HD and BBC1 HD frequency on satellite recently (6-6-2011), they went from DVB-S to DVB-S2, is this what you talk about?.

Satellite: Astra2
Frequency: 10847 MHz
Symbol rate:23000 KS/s
Polarisation: Vertical
Modulation: DVB-S2/ QPSK
FEC: 8/9
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post #120 of 3692 Old 06-25-2011, 08:14 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mastermaybe View Post

If indeed this worthless (for "smaller displays, anyway) resolution ends up coming to panels 60" and smalller, I for one will be interested in seeing how a 1080 feed looks on them compared to a native 1080 panel. Surely such a sig upscaling has its PQ hurdles?
James

I thought an increased number of pixels amounted to an extra dithering effect. Thats what a reviewer said about the Dell 30" 2560x1600 monitor once.


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Reply OLED Technology and Flat Panels General

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