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post #1171 of 3692 Old 04-06-2012, 12:49 PM
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Originally Posted by 8mile13 View Post

problem in China is that there is virtually no freedom of speech. The communist party is in charge of whats truth and whats not. That is what the Tiananmen Square protests where all about...in 1989

chinese kapitalism started in 1978 ...should have some high quality products by now.

I don't want to go into geopolitics, but tiananmen is as much about collapse of Soviet Union. But guess what, china is still in one piece.

How long do u reckon an industrial revolution of the magnitude of 1 bio people from an agrarian society post the devastating "great leap" will take? Anyone with bright ideas should invest Myanmar now. Easier said than done.

And on the other extreme irkuck is missing the whole point again. China excels in labour intensive industry not capital intensive. Check out the state supported semicon fab SMIC. Panels are capital intensive and learning curve steep. Will TCL be able to mass produce 42" because it is a mature yield process? Sure I think so. But will they be able to make huge size in volume from 8.5G and be a pioneer? It's not likely possible. Koreans and Taiwanese been saying to build a 10G in china for years but never did start due to economic, political and technological transfer issues. It is unlikely that China can do it themselves without external help, at this stage of their development.

Without 10G it is as much a mathematical certainty that 110" will not be mass produced as plasma unit volume will never revert to 2011 levels. It doesn't take divine knowledge to reach those conclusions.

Look at their rail system. They invited foreigners in to start the ball rolling so they can learn the technology. The foreigners came in eyes open, knowing full well they would be kicked out later. Now we see the birth pains of china rail. Execution always sounds easy. Welcome to the school of hard knocks. The Chinese will learn from their mistakes of course, but no one skips the learning curve.

When the masses becomes more affluent, then we'll see china producing quality products. It's the same societal growth pattern everywhere. Difference is China doing this much faster, though ironically with a slow and steady attitude.

Sorry for diverting the topic but I think 4k and huge size will have great opportunity in Asia, including china. Like I said most people here don't have an issue with a TV dominating a wall. And most embrace new technology indiscriminately, even like 3D. I won't be surprised if 4k and huge size would be led by Asians next 10 years, as long as the trajectory of their growth in income continues. But the know how will still likely come from outside China
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post #1172 of 3692 Old 04-07-2012, 05:49 AM
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I am i bit over the top with my comments but i'm certainly not way off! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kWH5PPAqmMI
To bad we can't have a proper conversation about it since this is not a political Forum.

Question this record breaking chinese 4K 110 inch raises is if this is a sign of things to come. Will lots of us have a chinese 4K OLED in the house ten years from now? Chinese 4K bluray players? Chinese A/V receivers? Some believe this will happen...soon. I have my doubts since one area where the chinese have a modest impact is the luxury market. I wonder why

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post #1173 of 3692 Old 04-07-2012, 12:55 PM
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Originally Posted by specuvestor View Post

I don't want to go into geopolitics, but tiananmen is as much about collapse of Soviet Union. But guess what, china is still in one piece.

People are fixated on the magic word "communism" pretending it explains everything. With very little exaggeration one can say communism in China nowadays plays similar role like religion in the US. That is it is a facade to which everybody refers to in political circles with hardliners (often hypocrates) having good chance to get up the ladder. Being an atheist is seen in US reality as awful and there is no place for them in those circles but there is plenty for guys like mormon bishops baptizing Jews deceased long ago. Now, what this has to do with economy? Nothing. The same with communism in China (almost).

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And on the other extreme irkuck is missing the whole point again. China excels in labour intensive industry not capital intensive. Check out the state supported semicon fab SMIC. Panels are capital intensive and learning curve steep. Will TCL be able to mass produce 42" because it is a mature yield process? Sure I think so. But will they be able to make huge size in volume from 8.5G and be a pioneer? It's not likely possible. Koreans and Taiwanese been saying to build a 10G in china for years but never did start due to economic, political and technological transfer issues. It is unlikely that China can do it themselves without external help, at this stage of their development.Without 10G it is as much a mathematical certainty that 110" will not be mass produced as plasma unit volume will never revert to 2011 levels. It doesn't take divine knowledge to reach those conclusions.

Old thinking. It is proven now that there is no need for 10G to make huge displays. 8.5G is not really capital expensive comapring to 10G. There is also no need for 10G to make volume production of huge displays, one can add more (and much cheaper) lines and very cheap workforce. See this clearly: Sharp is producing big displays even on older lines, no problem with capacity. Now imagine same is done in China: one could expect costs lower at least 30%. There is absolutely no need for 10G in China.

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Look at their rail system. They invited foreigners in to start the ball rolling so they can learn the technology. The foreigners came in eyes open, knowing full well they would be kicked out later. Now we see the birth pains of china rail. Execution always sounds easy. Welcome to the school of hard knocks. The Chinese will learn from their mistakes of course, but no one skips the learning curve.

This is yet another cliche which has been invented due to a single bad accident. Fact is that China has now by far the biggest bullet train network in the world and lots of it is made due to local development. Technical level and speed of the development of this rail network is unprecedented.

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When the masses becomes more affluent, then we'll see china producing quality products. It's the same societal growth pattern everywhere. Difference is China doing this much faster, though ironically with a slow and steady attitude.

Chinese were not in quality products since obviously they were learning and there was no central plan to get there /industry is directed like once in Japan by the MITI). Only now they declare direction to move into creating top brands, world-beating thech and quality. The 120" should be taken as a statement of this. Recently there was another statement like this in mobile area when Huawei demonstrated new smartphones. They were on par like other top brands but people were stunned that all technology including four-core processors was chinese.

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Originally Posted by specuvestor View Post

Sorry for diverting the topic but I think 4k and huge size will have great opportunity in Asia, including china. Like I said most people here don't have an issue with a TV dominating a wall. And most embrace new technology indiscriminately, even like 3D. I won't be surprised if 4k and huge size would be led by Asians next 10 years, as long as the trajectory of their growth in income continues. But the know how will still likely come from outside China

But you can see that chinese already have the know-how for LCD. Others of course are trying to jump to OLED but chinese will be follwing there too.
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post #1174 of 3692 Old 04-07-2012, 02:57 PM
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"Old thinking. It is proven now that there is no need for 10G to make huge displays. 8.5G is not really capital expensive comapring to 10G. There is also no need for 10G to make volume production of huge displays, one can add more (and much cheaper) lines and very cheap workforce. See this clearly: Sharp is producing big displays even on older lines, no problem with capacity. Now imagine same is done in China: one could expect costs lower at least 30%. There is absolutely no need for 10G in China."

This is so ironic.

It was you who insisted only Sharp could make 70" screens because only Sharp had a 10G fab and now you who insists that a 10G is not needed to make gigantic screens because "you can just build x number of 8.5G lines and that's cheaper".

I really didn't much agree with you then (it was more a choice than a reality) nor do I much agree with you now (Samsung and LG still can't seem to mass produce anything over 60"... there tiny volumes of 65" notwithstanding).

As for your claims that Sharp is making giant size displays on older fabs, that's of course true, but perspective is in order here. We are talking de minimus amounts of product. They are making maybe low five figures annually of the 80-inch displays at this point; they are not making anywhere near 100K annually.

Reasoning that "because they can make a really tiny amount of them at all, it's therefore possible the Chinese can 'substitute' labor for some portion of capital and make lots of them" is a stretch. Is it completely wrong to say that 8G fabs can be used to make a few hundred thousand units of giant LCDs annually? No, I'm quite sure that's doable on a global basis. Is it even reasonable to suggest that millions of giant LCDs can come out of 8G fabs annually? I'd say no, that's a stretch. And whatever "savings" you think they are getting from using smaller glass at that kind of scale will more than be eaten by up by having more color filter lines, more cutting lines, more LC sputtering machines, etc. etc. etc.

There is no difference in HDMI cables. If you can see the picture without visible dropouts or sparklies, the cable is working at 100%. No other cable will display a better version of that picture. You're simply wrong if you think there is a better digital cable than one that is already working. (Oh, and plasma didn't die because of logistics problems, nor does OLED ship in big boxes because it comes from Korea.)
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post #1175 of 3692 Old 04-08-2012, 08:58 AM
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Originally Posted by Chronoptimist; View Post

Haha. Never going to happen, unless the PS4 is still five years away.

If the PS4 is due out next year, and is based on the 7000 series of cards, it has to be from the very low end of the range, because the PS4 is not going to be as expensive as the PS3 was at launchthey learned their lesson last time.

The low end is nowhere near powerful enough for 4K gaming at playable framerates. (and the high end is probably pushing it, at 30fps)

Sony certainly wants a native 4K PS4 since 4K is the future, PS4 or PS5 will be 4K native. Once 4K bluray movies/games are in the stores Sony will make shure that a PS will be there for playback. Xbox successor will probably have blu-rayplayer on board. We probably gonna see the new Xbox first.

In japan the name will not be PS4 - rumour is the name will be PS Orbis - since 4 is pronounced ''shi'' which means death
http://japanese.about.com/blqow7.htm


There are lots of rumours, can't be shure about anything right now
http://www.t3.com/news/sony-ps4-rumours

http://www.itworld.com/personal-tech...ing-deeper-ps4
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post #1176 of 3692 Old 04-08-2012, 10:59 AM
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Originally Posted by rogo View Post

"Old thinking. It is proven now that there is no need for 10G to make huge displays. 8.5G is not really capital expensive comapring to 10G. There is also no need for 10G to make volume production of huge displays, one can add more (and much cheaper) lines and very cheap workforce. See this clearly: Sharp is producing big displays even on older lines, no problem with capacity. Now imagine same is done in China: one could expect costs lower at least 30%. There is absolutely no need for 10G in China."

This is so ironic.

It was you who insisted only Sharp could make 70" screens because only Sharp had a 10G fab and now you who insists that a 10G is not needed to make gigantic screens because "you can just build x number of 8.5G lines and that's cheaper".

No, you recorded only my initial arguments. I was saying in the beginning that Sharp 70" can be made efficiently in the 10G plant since the glass size they use allows to fit two rows of 70" an total 6 or 8 of them. This, I speculated, was the reason they can make them so cheaply due to the economy of scale. But later when Sharp started making 80" (and announced readiness to make 90") I said they must be reusing older plants in some way (which is not fully figured out yet) since such display size is too big to fit efficiently onto 10G. Now the idea of using smaller plants is confirmed by the chinese, they have only 8.5G.

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As for your claims that Sharp is making giant size displays on older fabs, that's of course true, but perspective is in order here. We are talking de minimus amounts of product. They are making maybe low five figures annually of the 80-inch displays at this point; they are not making anywhere near 100K annually.

True, but they had to make something to improve overall efficiency in making big on small, otherwise the displays would be very expensive.


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Reasoning that "because they can make a really tiny amount of them at all, it's therefore possible the Chinese can 'substitute' labor for some portion of capital and make lots of them" is a stretch. Is it completely wrong to say that 8G fabs can be used to make a few hundred thousand units of giant LCDs annually? No, I'm quite sure that's doable on a global basis. Is it even reasonable to suggest that millions of giant LCDs can come out of 8G fabs annually? I'd say no, that's a stretch. And whatever "savings" you think they are getting from using smaller glass at that kind of scale will more than be eaten by up by having more color filter lines, more cutting lines, more LC sputtering machines, etc. etc. etc.

What is possible e.g. that Sharp (and TCL) installed more parallel 8G lines and additional sophisticated automation. This allows them for having enough capacity at lower cost. Chinese can be doing essentially same and even skip on the automation investment since their labor is very cheap.

But obviously we are not talking here about the scale of multimillions. The scale is, say, below one million units. What is critical is that cost can be contained since multiline 8G plant has much lower investment cost than full 10G and is very flexibly adaptable to demand for mainstream sizes and monsters (they can run in parallel).
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post #1177 of 3692 Old 04-08-2012, 11:15 AM
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Sony certainly wants a native 4K PS4 since 4K is the future, PS4 or PS5 will be 4K native. Once 4K bluray movies/games are in the stores Sony will make shure that a PS will be there for playback. Xbox successor will probably have blu-rayplayer on board. We probably gonna see the new Xbox first. In japan the name will not be PS4 - rumour is the name will be PS Orbis - since 4 is pronounced ''shi'' which means death
http://japanese.about.com/blqow7.htm

4K is only claimed to be the future by some techies. Content industry in particular is hugely sceptical and does not want to be drawn into it since money is in small displays and download. Mass consumer thinks PQ is stunning already and does not want more. Display industry is on life support and has clearly lost its vision as huge demand is for small high-density displays but investment was not directed there. Same is with the 4K, the demand would be in the desktop computer monitor segment but there is no activity there.
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post #1178 of 3692 Old 04-08-2012, 12:01 PM
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No, you recorded only my initial arguments. I was saying in the beginning that Sharp 70" can be made efficiently in the 10G plant since the glass size they use allows to fit two rows of 70" an total 6 or 8 of them. This, I speculated, was the reason they can make them so cheaply due to the economy of scale. But later when Sharp started making 80" (and announced readiness to make 90") I said they must be reusing older plants in some way (which is not fully figured out yet) since such display size is too big to fit efficiently onto 10G. Now the idea of using smaller plants is confirmed by the chinese, they have only 8.5G.

Actually, I'm fairly sure I brought the news of Sharp using the older plants for the larger displays, not you. But whatever, that's a small point.

The fact is, your original thesis was "only Sharp can make these 70" displays because they have the 10G plant and can make them 6 up on one sheet" (it's 6, not 8). And that thesis is clearly not especially true. Others could make them. And yet....
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True, but they had to make something to improve overall efficiency in making big on small, otherwise the displays would be very expensive.

You remain confused by the economics of the business. So long as they make an 80" display and make more gross margin than they made producing 4 x 40" displays, they win. That's what goes on. There is no magic here. They pattern the entire 4 x 40" sheet as one display, they don't cut it into small pieces, they tweak the sizes of the pixels accordingly and voila.

The 80" still only has one power supply, one controller board, one "boxing", one bill of sale, etc. So it's actually quite a bit less expensive to make than 4 of the 40" TVs and yet they can charge more. Nothing magic has occurred.
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What is possible e.g. that Sharp (and TCL) installed more parallel 8G lines and additional sophisticated automation. This allows them for having enough capacity at lower cost. Chinese can be doing essentially same and even skip on the automation investment since their labor is very cheap.

These displays require less automation or labor. Fewer displays = fewer cuts = less to actually assemble and ship. There are probably a dozen steps to take the display (or a module incl. BLU even) and get it ready for shipping. If I make fewer, larger displays, I have less work to do. Yes, I run risks on yield and quite frankly on demand (or else everyone would just stop making 40" displays and make 80s instead). but I have less work, not more.

I have no idea why you think there is more work.
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But obviously we are not talking here about the scale of multimillions. The scale is, say, below one million units. What is critical is that cost can be contained since multiline 8G plant has much lower investment cost than full 10G and is very flexibly adaptable to demand for mainstream sizes and monsters (they can run in parallel).

The scale is gigantically below 1 million units even for the 70" production of Sharp, which was very roughly 1/4 million in 2011 and will grow this year.

For sizes above 70", you can assume the scale is so low for years to come that this is completely a non-issue. There is nothing stopping Samsung and LG from making 80s and 90s the same way Sharp is other than what can only be seen as lack of belief in the profitability of doing so.

Fact is, there is fixed cost in setting up these lines (100% capital cost, nothing the Chinese can do with your vaunted "cheap labor") and you have to make a one-time investment to actually produce an 80" display at all. When Samsung keeps demoing their 75" showpiece, what they don't do is say, "And we've adapted a line to actually produce them." Their method for doing that would be very very much akin to Sharp's method for making the 80". There is no rocket science here.

There is no difference in HDMI cables. If you can see the picture without visible dropouts or sparklies, the cable is working at 100%. No other cable will display a better version of that picture. You're simply wrong if you think there is a better digital cable than one that is already working. (Oh, and plasma didn't die because of logistics problems, nor does OLED ship in big boxes because it comes from Korea.)
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post #1179 of 3692 Old 04-08-2012, 01:23 PM
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Originally Posted by irkuck View Post

Display industry is on life support and has clearly lost its vision as huge demand is for small high-density displays but investment was not directed there. Same is with the 4K, the demand would be in the desktop computer monitor segment but there is no activity there.

That is exactly the reason there will be 4K. Every segment of the television sector is going down as the transition over to 1080p nears completion for most consumers. Only the large 70-120" segment is expected to see growth and that is exactly were 4K is needed most. It will trickle down to to smaller sizes as Full 1080p passive 3D and "future-proofing" are marketed.
The industry has seen Apple succeed and expand its business model by offering innovation, slighter better model than last year and marketing. They need something to latch onto and 4K is more probable than not ready for mass production OLED and other tech. Guess will we know which one of us 4K and anit-4K people are right, when and if the PS4 is released Christmas 2013.

For now though, you can get your 4K computer monitor activity here:
http://www.photographyblog.com/news/...onitor_at_nab/
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post #1180 of 3692 Old 04-08-2012, 01:24 PM
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Originally Posted by irkuck; View Post

4K is only claimed to be the future by some techies. Content industry in particular is hugely sceptical and does not want to be drawn into it since money is in small displays and download. Mass consumer thinks PQ is stunning already and does not want more. Display industry is on life support and has clearly lost its vision as huge demand is for small high-density displays but investment was not directed there. Same is with the 4K, the demand would be in the desktop computer monitor segment but there is no activity there.

Future is not two or three years from now, future is a decade or so away. Even the sceptics who believe that 1080p is good enough know that 4K is unstoppable.

Manufacturers invent stuff, lots of those inventions end up in in the products they massproduce. Lots of shoppers look for stuff with the latest tech in it, are willing to pay some extra money, eventually older tech is no longer for sale in the stores. This kind a ''Progress'' can be slowed down not be stopped.
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post #1181 of 3692 Old 04-08-2012, 04:04 PM
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Originally Posted by 8mile13 View Post

Future is not two or three years from now, future is a decade or so away. Even the sceptics who believe that 1080p is good enough know that 4K is unstoppable.

From that perspective, people who are arguing your point are really wasting their breath and keystrokes. It's clear that in the long run, you are inevitably correct.

There is no difference in HDMI cables. If you can see the picture without visible dropouts or sparklies, the cable is working at 100%. No other cable will display a better version of that picture. You're simply wrong if you think there is a better digital cable than one that is already working. (Oh, and plasma didn't die because of logistics problems, nor does OLED ship in big boxes because it comes from Korea.)
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Sony certainly wants a native 4K PS4 since 4K is the future, PS4 or PS5 will be 4K native. Once 4K bluray movies/games are in the stores Sony will make shure that a PS will be there for playback.

I wouldn't be surprised if the PS4 was capable of 4K (2160p30) output but if that happens I would expect only a few games to render at that resolution. Based on past history the vast majority of game developers will develop their PS4 games for the resolution that would make sense for the majority of gamers. If the PS4 is capable of 4K output I think it will mainly be for 4K video.


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For now though, you can get your 4K computer monitor activity here:
http://www.photographyblog.com/news/...onitor_at_nab/

There are several 4K computer monitors for the professional market but they are extremely expensive and that is likely to be true for that model as well based on the Eizo FDH3601 product page. As far as I know we have yet to see any 4K computer monitors made for the consumer market. Also just to make a prediction but in the long term I think the resolution of 3840x2160 will be the standard for consumer 4K computer monitors.
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post #1183 of 3692 Old 04-09-2012, 08:52 AM
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Originally Posted by rogo View Post

Actually, I'm fairly sure I brought the news of Sharp using the older plants for the larger displays, not you. But whatever, that's a small point.

The fact is, your original thesis was "only Sharp can make these 70" displays because they have the 10G plant and can make them 6 up on one sheet" (it's 6, not 8). And that thesis is clearly not especially true. Others could make them. And yet.....

No, I was showing that only 10G size makes possible to stamp 6x70" but jsut.

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You remain confused by the economics of the business. So long as they make an 80" display and make more gross margin than they made producing 4 x 40" displays, they win. That's what goes on. There is no magic here. They pattern the entire 4 x 40" sheet as one display, they don't cut it into small pieces, they tweak the sizes of the pixels accordingly and voila.

The 80" still only has one power supply, one controller board, one "boxing", one bill of sale, etc. So it's actually quite a bit less expensive to make than 4 of the 40" TVs and yet they can charge more. Nothing magic has occurred.

If that would be as trivial as you imply world would be already flooded with monster displays at low, low prices. What I am saying is that Sharp uses lower gen fabs to make big displays but there must be some other tricks playing to make them economically. These tricks are Sharp's secret. Otherwise everbody would be doing this.
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For sizes above 70", you can assume the scale is so low for years to come that this is completely a non-issue. There is nothing stopping Samsung and LG from making 80s and 90s the same way Sharp is other than what can only be seen as lack of belief in the profitability of doing so.

You are approaching absurdity here. If Samsung and LG could make 80s and 90s economically they would be doing this already just to statisfy their oversized egos. It is quite opposite: they were showing those TVs, they were even showing prices and they disppearing when Sharp started selling. They simply could not match the price. Even this year Samsung 75" edge-lit might be coming with price of 7 grands. This of course is much above Sharp so Samsung may postpone again. Now the question is why Samsung is not able to match Sharp pricing even with edge-lit?
They have plenty of 8G plants so they could stamp those 75". But they miss tricks which Sharp has.

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Fact is, there is fixed cost in setting up these lines (100% capital cost, nothing the Chinese can do with your vaunted "cheap labor") and you have to make a one-time investment to actually produce an 80" display at all. When Samsung keeps demoing their 75" showpiece, what they don't do is say, "And we've adapted a line to actually produce them." Their method for doing that would be very very much akin to Sharp's method for making the 80". There is no rocket science here.

First, the 8G investment is way, way down comparing the 10G. One can economically produce all kind of smaller sizes in 8G and add huge displays flexibly. The new chinese factory must be optimized for this. Their show of 110" is statement for this.

Now, it you imply that Samsung could easily made 75" but just capriciously allows Shapr to be a leader it is plain absurd. Samsung has insatiable drive to be No. 1 and the fact it is not competing with Sharp means it does not have the required production chain which means likely it has its rocket science elements. For Samsung, in typical Asian way, being number 1 in all segments up to 55" and leaving the crown to Sharp must feel huge loss of face and affront. And now Chinese are showing 110" at 4K, Samsung (and LG) must be mad.
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post #1184 of 3692 Old 04-09-2012, 09:03 AM
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Originally Posted by 8mile13 View Post

Future is not two or three years from now, future is a decade or so away. Even the sceptics who believe that 1080p is good enough know that 4K is unstoppable.

Manufacturers invent stuff, lots of those inventions end up in in the products they massproduce. Lots of shoppers look for stuff with the latest tech in it, are willing to pay some extra money, eventually older tech is no longer for sale in the stores. This kind a ''Progress'' can be slowed down not be stopped.

As I mentioned there is combination of factors which does not make it obvious. Content industry is not happy, broadcast industry is not happy, consumers are not very interested since they spend more time on small displays and download.

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Originally Posted by sytech View Post

That is exactly the reason there will be 4K. Every segment of the television sector is going down as the transition over to 1080p nears completion for most consumers. Only the large 70-120" segment is expected to see growth and that is exactly were 4K is needed most. It will trickle down to to smaller sizes as Full 1080p passive 3D and "future-proofing" are marketed.

See above plus take that big size market and 3D is a niche.

Quote:
Originally Posted by sytech View Post

The industry has seen Apple succeed and expand its business model by offering innovation, slighter better model than last year and marketing. They need something to latch onto and 4K is more probable than not ready for mass production OLED and other tech. Guess will we know which one of us 4K and anit-4K people are right, when and if the PS4 is released Christmas 2013.

´

Apple makes tons of money since they built their own ecosystem. This where the TV manufs are trying to move by offering smart TVs.

Obviously there will be pressure to impose 4K on consumers by aggressive marketing. But it is very likely that there will be deaf ears.

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Originally Posted by sytech View Post

For now though, you can get your 4K computer monitor activity here:
http://www.photographyblog.com/news/...onitor_at_nab/

This is well-known a monitor for 30 grands. Somebdy tested it and concluded it is good only for static pics.

Panasonic has shown 20" 4K monitor but this one is really small.
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post #1185 of 3692 Old 04-09-2012, 01:08 PM
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Originally Posted by irkuck View Post

If that would be as trivial as you imply world would be already flooded with monster displays at low, low prices. What I am saying is that Sharp uses lower gen fabs to make big displays but there must be some other tricks playing to make them economically. These tricks are Sharp's secret. Otherwise everbody would be doing this.

Irkuck, I mean this gently, but you are failing Logic 101 here. You take a conclusion: "Other manufacturers are not making very large displays but Sharp is" and then decide... "therefore, only Sharp can do so economically". You decide this even though Sharp's method relies on outdated production facilities. This, after you used to argue Sharp entirely relied on modern production facilities to achieve economics for very large displays (70s.)

You keep concluding that "it must be economics of Sharp" that allows them to do this. First, it's new plants. Then, it's secrets to old plants.

You ignore, over and over and over that it could be something else. There might well be no secret (with respect to the 80s on 40 line, I'm fairly sure there is no secret actually). Sharp makes different choices than Samsung.

The possibilities you reject -- without evidence -- include:

1) That Sharp doesn't actually make money doing any of this
2) That Sharp chooses to pursue a market that Samsung, et al. find so small they ignore it
3) That Sharp makes money at this, but a margin below the target threshold of Samsung, et al.
4) That Sharp is the only one with ready access to the machines that make the color filters, LCD litho, et al. at 70" and up because of a special relationship with some 3rd party supplier

and countless other explanations. I'm no longer arguing with you on this point except to say that since you argued both sides of the very same coin, the probability is your explanation is completely in error, that Sharp has no miraculous technology even though we agree there is some amount of efficiency (that neither of us has been able to quantify I might add) from running the 70" panels in 6-up mode.
Quote:


You are approaching absurdity here. If Samsung and LG could make 80s and 90s economically they would be doing this already just to statisfy their oversized egos.

No evidence supports this. This is your opinion. Yet LG surely can mass produce 65" TVs and it doesn't even do that.
Quote:


It is quite opposite: they were showing those TVs, they were even showing prices and they disppearing when Sharp started selling. They simply could not match the price.

Or they simply choose not to bother.
Quote:


Even this year Samsung 75" edge-lit might be coming with price of 7 grands. This of course is much above Sharp so Samsung may postpone again. Now the question is why Samsung is not able to match Sharp pricing even with edge-lit?

Again, we do not agree on your conclusion. Your conclusion is "Samsung's price is X, therefore that's the lowest price they could achieve." My conclusion is, "Samsung's price is X, therefore they are not interested in the market."
Quote:


They have plenty of 8G plants so they could stamp those 75". But they miss tricks which Sharp has.

I suggested above that perhaps the litho, etc. machinery is rare. There is no other "trick" to miss. If they have the machines to pattern the displays the sputter the LC material they can do this. If they don't, they don't. It's certainly possible that one or more of those machines is so rare or that Sharp has the only good model of the machine that can distribute the LC material across such large surfaces (keep in mind, readers, that distributing the LC material used to be the part of making LCD TVs that seemed like it would not be solved and would deny us TVs of much larger than 40").
Quote:


First, the 8G investment is way, way down comparing the 10G. One can economically produce all kind of smaller sizes in 8G and add huge displays flexibly. The new chinese factory must be optimized for this. Their show of 110" is statement for this.

Or it's a demo, like the Sharp 100"+ demo of a few years ago.
Quote:


Now, it you imply that Samsung could easily made 75" but just capriciously allows Shapr to be a leader it is plain absurd. Samsung has insatiable drive to be No. 1 and the fact it is not competing with Sharp means it does not have the required production chain which means likely it has its rocket science elements. For Samsung, in typical Asian way, being number 1 in all segments up to 55" and leaving the crown to Sharp must feel huge loss of face and affront.

Samsung has shown minimal/zero interest playing above 60". Why? Tiny market size. Just because you perceive this huge market doesn't mean they do.
Quote:


And now Chinese are showing 110" at 4K, Samsung (and LG) must be mad.

You see corporations as petulent children. I see them as profit maximizers.

There is no difference in HDMI cables. If you can see the picture without visible dropouts or sparklies, the cable is working at 100%. No other cable will display a better version of that picture. You're simply wrong if you think there is a better digital cable than one that is already working. (Oh, and plasma didn't die because of logistics problems, nor does OLED ship in big boxes because it comes from Korea.)
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post #1186 of 3692 Old 04-09-2012, 02:57 PM
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i'm certainly no expert and lack a tech background, but from what i have
read sharps giant lcd screens reflect more of a marketing decision rather than
sharp having some special proprietary lcd expertise that samsung, lg, and panasonic lack.

neflixis our nemesis
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post #1187 of 3692 Old 04-09-2012, 03:23 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mr. wally View Post

i'm certainly no expert and lack a tech background, but from what i have
read sharps giant lcd screens reflect more of a marketing decision rather than
sharp having some special proprietary lcd expertise that samsung, lg, and panasonic lack.

I am not a huge fan of +1 posts, but....

+1.

There is no difference in HDMI cables. If you can see the picture without visible dropouts or sparklies, the cable is working at 100%. No other cable will display a better version of that picture. You're simply wrong if you think there is a better digital cable than one that is already working. (Oh, and plasma didn't die because of logistics problems, nor does OLED ship in big boxes because it comes from Korea.)
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Originally Posted by Richard Paul View Post

I wouldn't be surprised if the PS4 was capable of 4K (2160p30) output but if that happens I would expect only a few games to render at that resolution. Based on past history the vast majority of game developers will develop their PS4 games for the resolution that would make sense for the majority of gamers. If the PS4 is capable of 4K output I think it will mainly be for 4K video..

The latest rumor is the PS4 will use the AMD's A8-3850 APU and Radeon HD 7670 GPU. As it stands now the 7670 GPU has a max resolution of 2560x1600.
So I don't think it will be able to render 4K games on the fly. At least not at any acceptable frame rate. However, it should be more than capable of decoding 4K H.265 codec video.

Ir all makes perfect sense. Sony wants to call it the PS4, but the Japanese character for 4 is close to their character for death. So they will kill two birds with one stone and call it the PS4K because of its ability to play 4K movies.




Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard Paul View Post

There are several 4K computer monitors for the professional market but they are extremely expensive and that is likely to be true for that model as well based on the Eizo FDH3601 product page. As far as I know we have yet to see any 4K computer monitors made for the consumer market. Also just to make a prediction but in the long term I think the resolution of 3840x2160 will be the standard for consumer 4K computer monitors.

Of course prices are high. It is a new market with very small sales volume. For reference Sony F65 AltaCine 4K camera was $65000 and now they have a prosumer NEX-FS700 4K model for less than 10K. It will probable take Apple to push 4K monitors like they did with their Apple Cinema 1600p HD Display line. Chimei Innolux has a 4K 46-inch LCD panel they showed at FPD International 2011 that could be used when Apple is ready and cost a fraction of the current professional 4K monitors.

http://techon.nikkeibp.co.jp/english...111027/199920/
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post #1189 of 3692 Old 04-09-2012, 08:30 PM
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Originally Posted by irkuck View Post

If that would be as trivial as you imply world would be already flooded with monster displays at low, low prices. What I am saying is that Sharp uses lower gen fabs to make big displays but there must be some other tricks playing to make them economically. These tricks are Sharp's secret. Otherwise everbody would be doing this.


You are approaching absurdity here. If Samsung and LG could make 80s and 90s economically they would be doing this already just to statisfy their oversized egos. It is quite opposite: they were showing those TVs, they were even showing prices and they disppearing when Sharp started selling. They simply could not match the price. Even this year Samsung 75" edge-lit might be coming with price of 7 grands. This of course is much above Sharp so Samsung may postpone again. Now the question is why Samsung is not able to match Sharp pricing even with edge-lit?
They have plenty of 8G plants so they could stamp those 75". But they miss tricks which Sharp has.

Now, it you imply that Samsung could easily made 75" but just capriciously allows Shapr to be a leader it is plain absurd. Samsung has insatiable drive to be No. 1 and the fact it is not competing with Sharp means it does not have the required production chain which means likely it has its rocket science elements. For Samsung, in typical Asian way, being number 1 in all segments up to 55" and leaving the crown to Sharp must feel huge loss of face and affront. And now Chinese are showing 110" at 4K, Samsung (and LG) must be mad.

Are you trying to say that's why Sharp is in a loss while Sammy LCD (excluding OLED) is breaking even?

There's definitely a magic trick here. Sharp is making profits disappear. Ever since their 4Q results I have no clue what is their "trick up their sleeves"... does start to look more and more like "up their ..." Great product lineup which I have been alluding to, but someone in management accounting did their numbers wrong... very wrong.

Quote:
Originally Posted by irkuck View Post

First, the 8G investment is way, way down comparing the 10G. One can economically produce all kind of smaller sizes in 8G and add huge displays flexibly. The new chinese factory must be optimized for this. Their show of 110" is statement for this.

I guess Sony must have CLED optimised too. And LG's 32" OLED should be optimised.

BTW Sharp is producing 80" on 8G because the the other half of production is making IGZO retina for small/ medium size panels. Is this a good trick or foolhardiness we will soon know.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rogo View Post

Irkuck, I mean this gently, but you are failing Logic 101 here. You take a conclusion: "Other manufacturers are not making very large displays but Sharp is" and then decide... "therefore, only Sharp can do so economically". You decide this even though Sharp's method relies on outdated production facilities. This, after you used to argue Sharp entirely relied on modern production facilities to achieve economics for very large displays (70s.)

You keep concluding that "it must be economics of Sharp" that allows them to do this. First, it's new plants. Then, it's secrets to old plants.

You ignore, over and over and over that it could be something else. There might well be no secret (with respect to the 80s on 40 line, I'm fairly sure there is no secret actually). Sharp makes different choices than Samsung.

The possibilities you reject -- without evidence -- include:

1) That Sharp doesn't actually make money doing any of this
2) That Sharp chooses to pursue a market that Samsung, et al. find so small they ignore it
3) That Sharp makes money at this, but a margin below the target threshold of Samsung, et al.
4) That Sharp is the only one with ready access to the machines that make the color filters, LCD litho, et al. at 70" and up because of a special relationship with some 3rd party supplier

and countless other explanations. I'm no longer arguing with you on this point except to say that since you argued both sides of the very same coin, the probability is your explanation is completely in error, that Sharp has no miraculous technology even though we agree there is some amount of efficiency (that neither of us has been able to quantify I might add) from running the 70" panels in 6-up mode.


No evidence supports this. This is your opinion. Yet LG surely can mass produce 65" TVs and it doesn't even do that.


Or they simply choose not to bother.
Again, we do not agree on your conclusion. Your conclusion is "Samsung's price is X, therefore that's the lowest price they could achieve." My conclusion is, "Samsung's price is X, therefore they are not interested in the market."
I suggested above that perhaps the litho, etc. machinery is rare. There is no other "trick" to miss. If they have the machines to pattern the displays the sputter the LC material they can do this. If they don't, they don't. It's certainly possible that one or more of those machines is so rare or that Sharp has the only good model of the machine that can distribute the LC material across such large surfaces (keep in mind, readers, that distributing the LC material used to be the part of making LCD TVs that seemed like it would not be solved and would deny us TVs of much larger than 40").
Or it's a demo, like the Sharp 100"+ demo of a few years ago.
Samsung has shown minimal/zero interest playing above 60". Why? Tiny market size. Just because you perceive this huge market doesn't mean they do.
You see corporations as petulent children. I see them as profit maximizers.

Your upload is flying against reality and logic. Reality: Samsung and LG were all the time showing 'world biggest TVs' and they were prepared to launch them last year were Sharp have not undercut their throats on price. This year again Samsung is apparently preparing to launch the 75" for 7 000 but it will be again tough to match Sharp. Logic: Both Samsung and LG have supersized egos and want be No. 1 everywhere no matter a price. But they are not mad so it would be tooo expensive trying to match Sharp with 4 000 price with their starting at 12 0000. Reason for this is they do not have capabilities to match Sharp, manufacturing chainf does not allow them to go with the price down to the Sharp level.

Quote:
Originally Posted by specuvestor View Post

Are you trying to say that's why Sharp is in a loss while Sammy LCD (excluding OLED) is breaking even?

There's definitely a magic trick here. Sharp is making profits disappear. Ever since their 4Q results I have no clue what is their "trick up their sleeves"... does start to look more and more like "up their ..." Great product lineup which I have been alluding to, but someone in management accounting did their numbers wrong... very wrong.

We are talking about the technological tricks. Whole industry is financially hemorrhaging. Samsung lost less blood but this should be attributed to their concentration on good-enough edgelits.

Quote:
Originally Posted by specuvestor View Post

BTW Sharp is producing 80" on 8G because the the other half of production is making IGZO retina for small/ medium size panels. Is this a good trick or foolhardiness we will soon know.

This illustrates the fact display industry lost vision where is the money. Sharp and others were chasing big displays and TVs while the money is in small high-density ones. Sharp is making small displays but this is done with investment from Apple and Foxconn.
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post #1191 of 3692 Old 04-10-2012, 05:00 AM
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Originally Posted by irkuck; View Post

As I mentioned there is combination of factors which does not make it obvious. Content industry is not happy, broadcast industry is not happy, consumers are not very interested since they spend more time on small displays and download.

Microsoft stopped support for XP, now they will stop support for Vista. Lots of people are not happy with that. Windows 8 is in the making, just a few people are excited about that. Technology evolves, nothing you can do about it.






´
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Irkuck, so long as you keep up with post hoc, ergo propter hoc reasoning and engaging in other logical fallacies like "selecting on the dependent variable" you will keep generating errant conclusions". I don't know how else to explain to this because we are at the point where it's like someone speaking English to someone speaking Swahili....

I'm not, in fact, stating conclusions because I don't have evidence. What I'm doing is suggesting propositions supported by the evidence. You are suggesting propositions that are not supported by the evidence. "Sharp has some secret method that allows them to do this affordably..." Yet when they do it, they bleed red ink. Never mind they own no factory with any special capability to allow the production of the 80" screens (which belies the claim there was as much special about the 70" factory, as I've said).

Your belief that Samsung and LG run their companies like morons is something you are entitled to have, but the evidence does not back that belief.

There is no difference in HDMI cables. If you can see the picture without visible dropouts or sparklies, the cable is working at 100%. No other cable will display a better version of that picture. You're simply wrong if you think there is a better digital cable than one that is already working. (Oh, and plasma didn't die because of logistics problems, nor does OLED ship in big boxes because it comes from Korea.)
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Originally Posted by 8mile13 View Post

Microsoft stopped support for XP, now they will stop support for Vista. Lots of people are not happy with that. Windows 8 is in the making, just a few people are excited about that. Technology evolves, nothing you can do about it.

This comparison is aberrant. 4K is largely a white elephant tech. You could compare it to the attempts for introducing 24-bit audio CDs on the premise it offers superb AQ comparing to the standard, 'mere' 16-bit CDs. This is was while ago, nowadays nobody is not even talking about lossless audio for the masses. Same with the 4K: the difference with 2K is minor if at all, and business and consumer eyeballs are in the small high-density displays. There are legitimate cases for 4K like 110" LCD but this is niche market.

Quote:
Originally Posted by rogo View Post

Irkuck, so long as you keep up with post hoc, ergo propter hoc reasoning and engaging in other logical fallacies like "selecting on the dependent variable" you will keep generating errant conclusions". I don't know how else to explain to this because we are at the point where it's like someone speaking English to someone speaking Swahili....

I'm not, in fact, stating conclusions because I don't have evidence. What I'm doing is suggesting propositions supported by the evidence. You are suggesting propositions that are not supported by the evidence. "Sharp has some secret method that allows them to do this affordably..." Yet when they do it, they bleed red ink. Never mind they own no factory with any special capability to allow the production of the 80" screens (which belies the claim there was as much special about the 70" factory, as I've said).

Your belief that Samsung and LG run their companies like morons is something you are entitled to have, but the evidence does not back that belief.

Your denial of facts is amazing. it is incredible to neglect huge appetite of Samsung and LG to win the mine-is-bigger show. To skip completely their last year noisy demos and attempts to launch 75" and 82", revoked at the last moment due to the Sharp cut-throat pricing. Saying that they could make them competing with Sharp price but decided to lay down the red carpet for Sharp is absurd. Taking into account their oversized egos there is one and only one possible explanation: they have no capacity to make the displays as economically as Sharp. Obviously Samsung and LG are very clever and must be workingly madly to solve this but with no breakthrough visible yet. This leads us to the conclusion: Sharp must have some tricks up the sleeves which others were not able to crack. We may see alsto this year if Samsung will actually launch its 75" and what would be its price, LG probably left the field.
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Apple is using a 3K 4:3 display as the principle component for the "Retina Display" feature on it's new 10" Ipad tablet whose graphics are very highly rated. The retina display is certainly not a white elephant
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post #1195 of 3692 Old 04-11-2012, 10:42 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by irkuck View Post

Your denial of facts is amazing.

Not nearly as amazing as yours.
Quote:


To skip completely their last year noisy demos and attempts to launch 75" and 82", revoked at the last moment due to the Sharp cut-throat pricing.

Again, they demoed something. To say they pulled it at the last minute when Sharp launched a 70", $2800 TV in March is just so far removed from the reality of what happened I'm just going to let the actual facts speak for themselves not some fantasy version of them.
Quote:


Saying that they could make them competing with Sharp price but decided to lay down the red carpet for Sharp is absurd.

I'd love for you to find that quote.

For what it's worth, Sharp lost so much money on TVs last year, I'm not persuaded they made any money anywhere on the food chain.
Quote:


Taking into account their oversized egos there is one and only one possible explanation: they have no capacity to make the displays as economically as Sharp.

No, irkuck, that isn't the only possible explanation. It's possible they have a business goal that said, "We won't sell new products in new categories at 10% gross margins no matter what our competitors do." And this might especially be true when the entire market size is 200,000 units.
Quote:


Obviously Samsung and LG are very clever and must be workingly madly to solve this but with no breakthrough visible yet. This leads us to the conclusion: Sharp must have some tricks up the sleeves which others were not able to crack.

Again, you select on the dependent variable.
Quote:


We may see alsto this year if Samsung will actually launch its 75" and what would be its price, LG probably left the field.

I doubt Samsung will ever launch the 75" LCD, but that's another matter, which has nothing to do with capability. They've been indifferent to launching LCDs over 60" forever. I don't see any reason why this will change. It's quite likely that Samsung's total 65" sales to date are less than Sharp's 70" sales will be in 2012.

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Originally Posted by walford View Post

Apple is using a 3K 4:3 display as the principle component for the "Retina Display" feature on it's new 10" Ipad tablet whose graphics are very highly rated. The retina display is certainly not a white elephant

Agreed.

There is no difference in HDMI cables. If you can see the picture without visible dropouts or sparklies, the cable is working at 100%. No other cable will display a better version of that picture. You're simply wrong if you think there is a better digital cable than one that is already working. (Oh, and plasma didn't die because of logistics problems, nor does OLED ship in big boxes because it comes from Korea.)
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post #1196 of 3692 Old 04-11-2012, 11:27 AM
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Originally Posted by rogo View Post

Again, they demoed something. To say they pulled it at the last minute when Sharp launched a 70", $2800 TV in March is just so far removed from the reality of what happened I'm just going to let the actual facts speak for themselves not some fantasy version of them.

This is getting psychic: you claim Samsung/LG were showing their displays last year, had the pricing ready, and even some distributors waiting for supply - just for fun??? In fact LG display went for sale in Asia! This year the game starts again but reportedly Samsung may try to sell the 75" just for 7 grands (instead of last year 12) hoping it may compete with the Sharp Elite. It is patently clear that Samsung and LG were crying to displace Sharp but they could not since they are not able to match the price. The price difference is so huge that it indicates Sharp has technological lead over them.

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Originally Posted by rogo View Post

I doubt Samsung will ever launch the 75" LCD, but that's another matter, which has nothing to do with capability. They've been indifferent to launching LCDs over 60" forever. I don't see any reason why this will change. It's quite likely that Samsung's total 65" sales to date are less than Sharp's 70" sales will be in 2012.

The main factor here is ego. You imply Samsung was showing the 75" just for PR which is nonsense. In fact they apparently launched the 75" in Korea last year. They simply could not bring the 75" to shops due too high price difference vs. Sharp.


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Originally Posted by walford View Post

Apple is using a 3K 4:3 display as the principle component for the "Retina Display" feature on it's new 10" Ipad tablet whose graphics are very highly rated. The retina display is certainly not a white elephant

Has anybody been indicating here that retina display is white elephant???
Note that retina displays are used in completely different viewing scenario. Scenario is the reason why the 4K TV display is white elephant, especially those 46" and 55" minielephants. The 100"+ 4K is more of a valid case but I would still rather prefer the 2K of this size with the DCI-quality compressed content than the 4K with highly compressed content.
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Irkuck, I recognize you're not in the U.S., but I'm going to extend to you the courtesy of U.S. freedoms: Believe whatever you wish to believe.

You state things which are nonsensical and accuse others of nonsense. But, hey, whatever gets you through the day, friend.

There is no difference in HDMI cables. If you can see the picture without visible dropouts or sparklies, the cable is working at 100%. No other cable will display a better version of that picture. You're simply wrong if you think there is a better digital cable than one that is already working. (Oh, and plasma didn't die because of logistics problems, nor does OLED ship in big boxes because it comes from Korea.)
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irkuck,
You are the one who stated that " 4K is largely a white elephant tech" and I was pointing out that IMHO the new Apple IPad's Retina Display proves you wrong.
Also I consider that watching movies on TV or on a IPad is a common viewing scenerio which obviously benefits from Retina Displays.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rogo View Post

Irkuck, I recognize you're not in the U.S., but I'm going to extend to you the courtesy of U.S. freedoms: Believe whatever you wish to believe. You state things which are nonsensical and accuse others of nonsense. But, hey, whatever gets you through the day, friend.

Hmm, you are along the best tradition of US freedoms in preaching aloud whatever ultimate truth even if it flies against the evidence. Your creations resemble creationists preaching at the entrance to the dinosaur exhibition.

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Originally Posted by walford View Post

irkuck,
You are the one who stated that " 4K is largely a white elephant tech" and I was pointing out that IMHO the new Apple IPad's Retina Display proves you wrong. Also I consider that watching movies on TV or on a IPad is a common viewing scenerio which obviously benefits from Retina Displays.

We use here '4K' as a shortcut to the '4K TV displays' which means TV viewing scenario and the topic is if 4K makes sense then. Mobile/portable viewing scenario is totally different and high density displays and content make sense there. However, implying from this that retinal pixel density is needed for living room displays is not supported by facts concerning human visual system and experiments. FYI, I am strong proponent of the 4K desktop monitors and said many times here they would be very useful for almost anybody and are necessity for serious work in areas like digital photo or editing.
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post #1200 of 3692 Old 04-12-2012, 11:12 AM
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I am not in anyway saying that Retina is needed for living room displays. I am only saying if it is available for a resonable price then I certainly would prefer it over a non-retina display just as the owners of the new Ipad prefer it over the Ipad 1 or Ipad display for video and other viewing.
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