4k by 2k or Quad HD...lots of rumors? thoughts? - Page 43 - AVS Forum
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post #1261 of 3692 Old 05-02-2012, 11:09 AM
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Originally Posted by mastermaybe View Post


The last thing you want to do in this thread is introduce common sense and reality.

trust me.

James

Right... Now that we verified that you have the same common sense and perception of reality as Auditor55

And now we can all certainly sleep peacefully at night.
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post #1262 of 3692 Old 05-02-2012, 11:31 AM
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Originally Posted by mastermaybe View Post

The differences between 480 and 720/1080 on typical television screen sizes (40-65") and typical viewing distances is apparent.

1080 vs 4k within the same parameters is not.

But since we have a throng who will counter evidence with "better" evidence (even if largely unsubstantiated) the entire dialogue is a non-starter.


I just pop in here for a laugh every once and awhile. Make no mistake, ULTRAHD is coming....so is a 1000 hp Corvette.

James

Not only is 4K coming. It is already here!

http://www.retrevo.com/content/blog/...v-set-obsolete

https://dealersource.sel.sony.com/ds...e_theater.html

I'll take that 1000hp Corvette now.
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post #1263 of 3692 Old 05-02-2012, 11:57 AM
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I don't see much disagreement in this thread, really. Ostensibly it may appear so, but I think that is more due to a perception of absolutist language coming from both sides which has falsely suggested that there is a major divide.

I think everyone agrees that 4K would be beneficial for computer monitors where seating distance is typically very close and for projectors or very large plasma/lcd/dlp/etc. displays when coupled w/ ideal seating distances, and finally, 4d will be useful/necessary for the continued development of good passive 3D.

Mourning the disappearing usage of the -ly suffix. Words being cut-off before they've had a chance to fully form, left incomplete, with their shoelaces untied and their zippers undone. If I quote your post (or post in your thread) without comment, please check your zipper.
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post #1264 of 3692 Old 05-02-2012, 12:27 PM
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Originally Posted by CruelInventions View Post

I don't see much disagreement in this thread, really. Ostensibly it may appear so, but I think that is more due to a perception of absolutist language coming from both sides which has falsely suggested that there is a major divide.

I think a divide is between the typical AVS person who focuses in on the highest quality specs, and the persons who don't, of which I think the latter group is larger in number. For example, I built myself an HTPC and also one for my parents - neither with Blu-ray players. Heck, much of my video library is less than DVD res. While I might install a Blu-ray player at some point when prices drop further, 4K is simply not on the table in the foreseeable future for me and many others.

But for sure, marketers will push 4k, just as they pushed higher refresh rates, 3D and every other "must have" item. Marketers get paid the big bucks to create a market and are in the job of convincing - I have no doubt they will have success convincing some folks they can't live without 4k. The problem with 4K though is diminishing returns, as suggested - the res jump might not be as perceptible as some of the historical lower resolutions jumps. That might slow adoption although not stop it completely.
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post #1265 of 3692 Old 05-02-2012, 01:40 PM
 
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Originally Posted by sytech View Post

Not only is 4K coming. It is already here!

http://www.retrevo.com/content/blog/...v-set-obsolete

https://dealersource.sel.sony.com/ds...e_theater.html

I'll take that 1000hp Corvette now.

That's vaporware. BTW, where is my flying car.
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post #1266 of 3692 Old 05-02-2012, 04:51 PM
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That's vaporware. BTW, where is my flying car.

Your Flying Car, if you have the money

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post #1267 of 3692 Old 05-03-2012, 06:13 AM
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I am looking forward to the 4K format war so when the Toshiba fans lose again we can hear how expensive 4K BD players are compared to 4K HD DVD players.

But seriously I hope they pack everything into the format right the first time, unlike deep color, 3D, multiple frame rates like 48p, 60p, etc and all that other stuff BD was missing in the first gen players. Also will there be MPEG-2 movies to begin with spanned over a few Bd"s.

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post #1268 of 3692 Old 05-03-2012, 08:45 PM
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Originally Posted by Osamede View Post

The thing is that 1080p was possibly tangibly "better" for a decent number of people, given the size of living rooms and TVs.

To get 4K video content from the studios though only requires a market large enough to be profitable. That doesn't have to be a number in the tens of millions and for example Laserdisc sold only 16.8 million players (that was the total number of players sold worldwide in about 20 years so the average market size was much smaller than that). I think that within 5 years there will be enough 4K TVs sold to support 4K video content from the studios.


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Originally Posted by mastermaybe View Post

The differences between 480 and 720/1080 on typical television screen sizes (40-65") and typical viewing distances is apparent.

1080 vs 4k within the same parameters is not.

On the issue of when the average US household will have a 4K TV that will likely take 10 years or longer to happen. I would mention though that based on Nielsen data it wasn't until 2010 that half of US households had an HDTV (12 years after HDTV was launched in the US).


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Originally Posted by indio22 View Post

I think a divide is between the typical AVS person who focuses in on the highest quality specs, and the persons who don't, of which I think the latter group is larger in number. For example, I built myself an HTPC and also one for my parents - neither with Blu-ray players. Heck, much of my video library is less than DVD res. While I might install a Blu-ray player at some point when prices drop further, 4K is simply not on the table in the foreseeable future for me and many others.

With the HEVC video codec the idea of streaming 2160p24 video will become much easier. For example HEVC is about twice as efficient as MPEG-4 AVC so it should be possible to stream Netflix quality video at 2160p24 with an average bitrate of about 8 Mbps. That bit rate is above the current US broadband average but it shows that the idea of streaming 2160p24 video isn't necessarily that far off.


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Originally Posted by Jim Kiler View Post

But seriously I hope they pack everything into the format right the first time, unlike deep color, 3D, multiple frame rates like 48p, 60p, etc and all that other stuff BD was missing in the first gen players.

The more of those features that are added to the 4K version of Blu-ray the more it will cost to make the players. For example 2 years from now there will likely be a huge cost difference between a Level 5 HEVC decoder (up to 2160p30) and a Level 5.2 HEVC decoder (up to 2160p60). In my opinion when the 4K version of Blu-ray gets released (2 years, 5 years, etc...) will be a factor in how many of those features it will support.
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post #1269 of 3692 Old 05-04-2012, 03:27 AM
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Originally Posted by Richard Paul View Post

To get 4K video content from the studios though only requires a market large enough to be profitable. That doesn't have to be a number in the tens of millions and for example Laserdisc sold only 16.8 million players (that was the total number of players sold worldwide in about 20 years so the average market size was much smaller than that). I think that within 5 years there will be enough 4K TVs sold to support 4K video content from the studios.

On the issue of when the average US household will have a 4K TV that will likely take 10 years or longer to happen. I would mention though that based on Nielsen data it wasn't until 2010 that half of US households had an HDTV (12 years after HDTV was launched in the US).

The more of those features that are added to the 4K version of Blu-ray the more it will cost to make the players. For example 2 years from now there will likely be a huge cost difference between a Level 5 HEVC decoder (up to 2160p30) and a Level 5.2 HEVC decoder (up to 2160p60). In my opinion when the 4K version of Blu-ray gets released (2 years, 5 years, etc...) will be a factor in how many of those features it will support.

This analysis misses the reality. The reality, which content producers know very well, is that eyeballs spend less and less time on big screens and PQ is less and less important. The trend is towards small high-density displays and will continue. The concern of content producers is fast networked distribution of just good-enough PQ. It is thus unlikely a new 4K format with physical media /BR/ will be introduced.

Quote:
Originally Posted by indio22 View Post

But for sure, marketers will push 4k, just as they pushed higher refresh rates, 3D and every other "must have" item. Marketers get paid the big bucks to create a market and are in the job of convincing - I have no doubt they will have success convincing some folks they can't live without 4k. The problem with 4K though is diminishing returns, as suggested - the res jump might not be as perceptible as some of the historical lower resolutions jumps. That might slow adoption although not stop it completely.

Definitely there will be huge push of the 4K to people. 4K will be promoted by tricky techniques which may fool even technically literate, only experts will be able to stay sober, typical example here. But wether the general pubblic will submit to marketers is highly debatable. Obviously clever marketing sells almost everything but TV and especially the PQ is not of primary concern to the coming generations of consumers. Industry is not going to invest a lot if prospect for return is not good. The question might be more in finding new viewing scenarios which may turn otu attractive. This is why the japanese are skipping 4K and developing 8K systems.

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post #1270 of 3692 Old 05-04-2012, 06:02 AM
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Originally Posted by Richard Paul View Post

The more of those features that are added to the 4K version of Blu-ray the more it will cost to make the players. For example 2 years from now there will likely be a huge cost difference between a Level 5 HEVC decoder (up to 2160p30) and a Level 5.2 HEVC decoder (up to 2160p60). In my opinion when the 4K version of Blu-ray gets released (2 years, 5 years, etc...) will be a factor in how many of those features it will support.

They can add the specs for all those features and then the first players will not support it but later players will as prices decline. And if they do not add all those specs why would anyone upgrade?

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Originally Posted by irkuck View Post

This analysis misses the reality. The reality, which content producers know very well, is that eyeballs spend less and less time on big screens and PQ is less and less important. The trend is towards small high-density displays and will continue. The concern of content producers is fast networked distribution of just good-enough PQ. It is thus unlikely a new 4K format with physical media /BR/ will be introduced.

It will be introduced because in a glutted market of TV's 4K resolution is a market differentiation strategy. How much it will catch on will be decided on how much they can ramp up economies of scale and quickly get prices cheap. But even kids who do not watch TV without multitasking want to watch movies with friends on a big screen. It is by when kids are by themselves when portability trumps PQ. In other words the market wants both at different times, portability and PQ.

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post #1271 of 3692 Old 05-04-2012, 09:20 AM
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I tried to pick up some news on where the new 4K and 8K broadcast formats are standing.

At NAB 2012 there where a whole day of sessions discussing various developments.
Here are an overview of the different speeches. Very strange that they in this time and age don't record this (preferably) on video or at least some audio recordings so we could hear all the details. http://expo.nabshow.com/mynabshow201...ord=Television

NHK will show their latest 8K broadcast development at NHK Open House Expo in the end of May.
Seems like the expected bitrates for broadcast in 4K will be 24Mb/s and 8K at 90Mb/s, compared to 6-10Mb/s today.


Some older info from SMPTE Fall Tech Expo in Hollywood;
Quote:
During the SMPTE Fall Tech Expo last week in Hollywood, I chaired a session on trends in display technologies. One of the four papers in my session discussed the ongoing efforts by NHK to develop an 8K camera-to-screen system, in conjunction with Canon, Astro, and Fuji, while another paper detailed a companion 8K LCoS projection system, developed by JVC.


The 8K camera system, which was shown at NAB back in April, is of interest because it uses a mastering and acquisition design philosophy, i.e. all video production in the future would rely on 8K cameras and reference displays, with downconversion to 4K and 2K an integral part of the system.

NHK's Ultra-High Definition TV (UHDTV) employs red, blue, and dual green-channel sensors, with the G1 and G2 sensors offset from each other to pick up additional detail. The camera delivers images with 33 megapixels of resolution and can transport a 22.2 surround sound mix. That's a tremendous data payload, and it requires 16 HD-SDI connections over optical fiber just to move the 7680×4320 frames (59.94p frame rate) from point to point.

The NHK format converter, developed by Astro, delivers real-time downconversion to 3840×2160 and 1920×1080 formats in three ways. The first is a straightforward downconvert to 4K or 2K from each master 8K video frame. The second process divides the image into quadrants and delivers any quadrant as "cut-out" 4K content, while the third process extracts any of 16 screen areas for 2K imaging, also as "cut outs."

4K and 2K format downconversions aren't just limited to specific image sections. The Astro format converter can also pan across any part of the screen and extract 4K and 2K sections as needed, including zooming and cropping any part of the full frame 8K images.

The pan/tilt/zoom functions are also lined to a robotic camera control system, as shown in a demo tape of a soccer match. While the main 8K scenes were being captured, a smaller 2K "tile" moved about the screen, grabbing and extracting real-time footage of activity around the goal and at midfield.


Canon's custom zoom lens developed for this camera has a zoom ratio of 10x and can resolve 250 line pairs per millimeter, with a minimum focal distance of 2 meters, or 50 millimeter in macro mode. A companion wide-angle lens also offers the same resolving power and has a 100-degree field of view, with minimum focal distance of 0.4 meters.

JVC's companion 8K D-ILA projector uses three brand new 1.7" VA LCoS panels, each with a pixel pitch of just 4.8 µm and resolution of 8192 x 3420 pixels. Switching transistors have gotten smaller, undergoing a 30% reduction in size. JVC has also come up with a smaller capacitor design to fit in the boundary between the reflective electrode and each transistor, and the gap between pixels has been reduced to 0.24 µm. All of these developments have increased the aperture ratio to 93% while boosting peak (sequential) contrast to 20,000:1.

A new optical engine was designed for the 8K system, employing a 3 kW xenon lamp and wire grid dichroic filters, similar to those employed in JVC's home theater projectors. According to JVC, this has resulted in a luminous efficiency of 3.3 lumens/watt, with ANSI contrast specified at 400:1 and ANSI brightness specified at 10,000 lumens.

All-new optics are also part of the package, with a 40mm prime lens providing a projection throw ratio of 1:1 to screens ranging in size from 8.3 feet to 42 feet. The data transfer rate of 72 GB/s required a custom fiber optic interface using 16 HD-SDI channels, with 12 bits per pixel sampling and a 60p frame rate. The transport format conforms to SMPTE-2036 and allows for a scalable, layered 8K/4K/2K structure.

Although JVC and NHK didn't touch on 3D during their papers, this 8K platform should easily be extensible to 3D acquisition and display. The D-ILA panels have an LC twist time of 4.5 ms, and interlaced or segmented left eye/right eye sequencing could easily be employed for 4K effective resolution, using the standard 60p frame rate. (No word on support for faster frame rates, such as 120 Hz for full 8K 3D - but that's wishful thinking for now!)

Neither the camera system nor the projector has been commercialized just yet - they're still in the prototype stage. But the images they produce are mind-blowing and a fascinating glimpse into the future of video beyond HDTVa time that's much closer than you think.

One advantage of 8K resolution which I see reported by many who have seen the Sharp 8K 85" LCD and the 145" 8K Panasonic plasma is that they show almost better 3D depth than what a regular 3D TV can show.

In this video from the presentation of the 145" 8K plasma one can see clearly the 3D depth in the 2D image even in this low resolution video recording.




Just for fun ; Comparing 85" size with 145", the Hight x Width of the 145" is not quite the double of the 85", but the screen area is more than double;
http://www.displaywars.com/85-inch-1...-145-inch-16x9
Width (85")74.08 inches (145")126.38 inches
Height (85")41.67 inches (145") 71.09 inches
Area (85")3087.24 inches² (145")8983.98 inches²
Just to show that if Sharp used their pixel size on their 85" 8K LCD (7680 x 4320)and built a 145" TV, they could have a (approximately) 15360 x 8640 TV.

Would we call that a 15K format.
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post #1272 of 3692 Old 05-04-2012, 10:43 AM
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One advantage of 8K resolution which I see reported by many who have seen the Sharp 8K 85" LCD and the 145" 8K Panasonic plasma is that they show almost better 3D depth than what a regular 3D TV can show.

In this video from the presentation of the 145" 8K plasma one can see clearly the 3D depth in the 2D image even in this low resolution video recording.

[

I notice this last year also when I saw it. Even when viewed on lower resolution screen the video has this obvious 3D effect even on 2D material. I think it may have to do with the sharpening of the focal length. Objects in the background that would normally be fuzzy and out of focus look sharper because of the increased resolution. I think this is why Sharp is using the ICC 4K engine to take advantage of the increased data and give a greater sense of depth to the pitcure. It is supposed to recreate the picture as you would see it with your own eye instead of the limitation of the camera lens. It might suffer the same problem as 48 fps, in looking to real.
Anyway, 8K seems way off, 2025 and beyond maybe. And at 8K we might really be approaching what the human eye can see at distance. 4K should start trickling in around 2016, with DirecTv offering a few premium channels in 4K. Such as ESPN 4K and HBO 4K. Sports should really benefit from the increase. The Redray 4K codec has 4K streaming below 20Mb/s already, so it is a matter of finding one that will work best.
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post #1273 of 3692 Old 05-04-2012, 10:56 AM
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Originally Posted by specuvestor View Post

Right... Now that we verified that you have the same common sense and perception of reality as Auditor55

And now we can all certainly sleep peacefully at night.

Yeah...because we happen to agree on the same point about a million others do: that increased resolution is completely lost on the 40-60" displays and viewing distances seen in 99% of the home viewing populace?

Great connection.

James

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post #1274 of 3692 Old 05-04-2012, 11:00 AM
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Originally Posted by sytech View Post

Not only is 4K coming. It is already here!

http://www.retrevo.com/content/blog/...v-set-obsolete

https://dealersource.sel.sony.com/ds...e_theater.html

I'll take that 1000hp Corvette now.

The allusion was of course to a 4k television. Which again, should be available right around the same time as the Corvette.

James

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Tech (responding to laughter): "I'm sorry sir, did I miss something?"

Me: "Yeah, a case of Diet Mountain Dew walking across my living room."

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post #1275 of 3692 Old 05-04-2012, 11:27 AM
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Originally Posted by mastermaybe View Post

The allusion was of course to a 4k television. Which again, should be available right around the same time as the Corvette.

James

This is a 4K television and it is available now.



I guess what you mean is 4K content. In that case you will have to wait for Sony's PS4 native 4K Blu-Ray player in late 2013 and then probably 2015-16 for DirectTv to start streaming 4K premium channels.
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post #1276 of 3692 Old 05-04-2012, 01:39 PM
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Anyway, 8K seems way off, 2025 and beyond maybe. And at 8K we might really be approaching what the human eye can see at distance. 4K should start trickling in around 2016, with DirecTv offering a few premium channels in 4K. Such as ESPN 4K and HBO 4K. Sports should really benefit from the increase. The Redray 4K codec has 4K streaming below 20Mb/s already, so it is a matter of finding one that will work best.

The questions I see broadcasters now discuss is whether they shall go for 4K now and then upgrade to 8K later, or go directly for 8K. As in; If we are going to upgrade broadcast cameras and all the back-end to 4K broadcast wouln't it be smarter to go straight for 8K. Doesn't mean all broadcast will be in 8K from the start but that a single upgrade that is more "future proof" is better economics, particularly when these changes take so much time.
Seems like NHK is heading that way and more or less dropped 4K, because they know you can always make 4K out of 8K but not the other way around.

At the NAB 2012 conferance, David Wood Deputy Director, EBU Technical, European Broadcasting Union put exactly that question.
Quote:


Just as surely as DTV and HDTV, the two formats for UHDTV (4K, 8K), are being standardized now in the ITU. Technically, today most matters are resolved except for the 'colour encoding'. We need to understand why this coming, and when it will come. There are many issues both for engineers and boardrooms.

Is UHDTV broadcasting 5, 10, or 15 years away?

Can we go straight to 8K, without passing 4K?

Where and how will it be broadcast?

Will any of the UHDTV formats be used for movie making?

What sound system will be needed to match the enhanced visual experience?

How far is UHDTV a ‘substitute’ for 3DTV?

The bottom line is probably what difference will it eventually make to our ‘audience time’ – the most precious commodity of the future. David Wood, Chair of the ITU group concerned with the UHDTV standards, will offer some answers to shoot at.

Among all the work on new technical standards like resolution, color management and compressions for TV, there is also international initiative to scrap the old broadcast standards (PAL; NTSC; SECAM) and get an unified standard for terrestrial broadcast.

Europe got a new unified standard for net broadcast content in April, after initiative of the Nordic broadcasters organisation NorDig called HbbTV (hybrid broadcast broadband television)

The Management Committee of the Future of Broadcast Television (FoBTV) Initiative, which was officially formed April 2012.
This will ease the future exchange of programming between content providers.

Quote:


The MOU underscores the goals of the FOBTV Initiative, which include:

Developing future ecosystem models for terrestrial broadcasting taking into account business, regulatory and technical environments,

Developing requirements for next generation terrestrial broadcast systems,
Fostering collaboration of Digital TV development laboratories,

Recommending major technologies to be used as the basis for new standards, and

Requesting standardization of selected technologies (layers) by appropriate standards development organizations

The complete MOU – signed by technical executives of the Advanced Television Systems Committee (ATSC),
Canadian Broadcast Corporation (CBC), Communications Research Centre Canada (CRC),
Digital Video Broadcasting Project (DVB),
European Broadcast Union (EBU),
Electronics and Telecommunications Research Institute (ETRI),
Globo TV-Brazil, IEEE Broadcast Technology Society (IEEE-BTS),
National Association of Broadcasters (NAB),
National Engineering Research Center of Digital TV of China (NERC-DTV),
NHK Science and Technology Research Laboratories (NHK),
Public Broadcasting Service (PBS) and the Brazilian Society of Television Engineers (SET)

Some more on this from last year; http://www.tvtechnology.com/article/...-effort/210768


So it looks like international broadcasters quite agree that they need to be gearing up to change much the old TV standards.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by coolscan View Post

The questions I see broadcasters now discuss is whether they shall go for 4K now and then upgrade to 8K later, or go directly for 8K. As in; If we are going to upgrade broadcast cameras and all the back-end to 4K broadcast wouln't it be smarter to go straight for 8K. Doesn't mean all broadcast will be in 8K from the start but that a single upgrade that is more "future proof" is better economics, particularly when these changes take so much time.
Seems like NHK is heading that way and more or less dropped 4K, because they know you can always make 4K out of 8K but not the other way around.

I guess it would be a matter of cost. How much difference is there currently between a 4K and 8K camera and processing equipment? 4K is pushing the infrastructure as it is, to get it into homes in the next few years. 8K would be at least 15 years out, and by that time wouldn't equipment be coming up for replacement by then anyway? I really don't know how long the equipment last now days being so complex and cheaply built.
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post #1278 of 3692 Old 05-05-2012, 07:20 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sytech View Post

I guess it would be a matter of cost. How much difference is there currently between a 4K and 8K camera and processing equipment?

The only 8K cameras that exist are the ones NHK has built, so there are nothing to compare with yet.
Quote:


4K is pushing the infrastructure as it is, to get it into homes in the next few years. 8K would be at least 15 years out, and by that time wouldn't equipment be coming up for replacement by then anyway? I really don't know how long the equipment last now days being so complex and cheaply built.

NHK want to start regular test broadcasts in 2020 in Japan, so it is a good ten years before other broadcasters start the upgrade. Original schedule was for test broadcasts in 2016, but NHK delayed this. Probably due to their new focus on 8K.
There also needs to be a fair amount of 4K and 8K screens available among the consumers before that.

If they go for 4K first, then they can't expect broadcasters to do a new upgrade to 8K for another twenty years and we will be closer to 2040 - 2050 before 8K will happen.
That is why they talk about going straight for 8K. As in more "future proof" system.
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post #1279 of 3692 Old 05-07-2012, 09:24 AM
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Yeah...because we happen to agree on the same point about a million others do: that increased resolution is completely lost on the 40-60" displays and viewing distances seen in 99% of the home viewing populace?

Great connection.

James

Definitely great connection. Because you guys don't bother to read the context of this thread before trashing it.

Just keep harping on 4k is not viable. Think it's stupid on a 32" screen. Then suddenly someone wants to use it as a PC monitor and gaming and it's not so stupid anymore.

Size and distance are interchangeable. That is the theme of the thread. Even Irkuck realises that it makes sense for PC usage.

And even Irkuck realises huge TVs are coming. You are like 3 months late repeating what he said. Now he just talks about "good-enough" PQ rather than "no-difference". Save us some forum bandwidth by reading his posts.

If the viewing distance for the 999,998 people are relatively constant and TVs are getting significantly larger than current 42" global average, the conclusion is easy. All the more if those 999,998 people are Asians.
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post #1280 of 3692 Old 05-07-2012, 10:22 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by specuvestor View Post

Size and distance are interchangeable. That is the theme of the thread. Even Irkuck realises that it makes sense for PC usage.

And even Irkuck realises huge TVs are coming. You are like 3 months late repeating what he said. Now he just talks about "good-enough" PQ rather than "no-difference". Save us some forum bandwidth by reading his posts.

If the viewing distance for the 999,998 people are relatively constant and TVs are getting significantly larger than current 42" global average, the conclusion is easy. All the more if those 999,998 people are Asians.

Labelling me with the 'even' is evil as my viewpoint is constantly rock-solid . I always said 4K TV makes sense in the viewing scenario below 3PH which is not what even high-end consumers are doing today (and beyond the 3PH the 4K is stupid). This is because such viewing arrangement is not fitting well into the living room with the current size displays. But with the drive towards displays of size 100" and beyond there is a case for 4K. Such displays can hang on the living room and the 2-3PH viewing distance is not crowded (though it may appeal only to a miniscule part of the total market). Regarding the 4K computer monitors my position was always they are necessity. I also see scenarios for resolutions going beyond 4K (look at the current desks of people surrounded by 3 HD monitors).

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post #1281 of 3692 Old 05-07-2012, 11:02 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by coolscan View Post

Some older info from SMPTE Fall Tech Expo in Hollywood;


One advantage of 8K resolution which I see reported by many who have seen the Sharp 8K 85" LCD and the 145" 8K Panasonic plasma is that they show almost better 3D depth than what a regular 3D TV can show.

In this video from the presentation of the 145" 8K plasma one can see clearly the 3D depth in the 2D image even in this low resolution video recording.)

Are we being asked to exchange one industry scam for another? 3 dimensional imaging in home cinema will not be really delivered without holography. And that's not going to be coming out of any traditional TV set, no matter how many pixels it has.
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post #1282 of 3692 Old 05-07-2012, 11:28 AM
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Originally Posted by sytech View Post

This is a 4K television and it is available now.



I guess what you mean is 4K content. In that case you will have to wait for Sony's PS4 native 4K Blu-Ray player in late 2013 and then probably 2015-16 for DirectTv to start streaming 4K premium channels.

If you can buy that television anywhere in North America right now then I stand corrected.

James

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Tech (responding to laughter): "I'm sorry sir, did I miss something?"

Me: "Yeah, a case of Diet Mountain Dew walking across my living room."

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post #1283 of 3692 Old 05-07-2012, 11:44 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by specuvestor View Post

Definitely great connection. Because you guys don't bother to read the context of this thread before trashing it.

Just keep harping on 4k is not viable. Think it's stupid on a 32" screen. Then suddenly someone wants to use it as a PC monitor and gaming and it's not so stupid anymore.

Size and distance are interchangeable. That is the theme of the thread. Even Irkuck realises that it makes sense for PC usage.

And even Irkuck realises huge TVs are coming. You are like 3 months late repeating what he said. Now he just talks about "good-enough" PQ rather than "no-difference". Save us some forum bandwidth by reading his posts.

If the viewing distance for the 999,998 people are relatively constant and TVs are getting significantly larger than current 42" global average, the conclusion is easy. All the more if those 999,998 people are Asians.


Nearly 100% incorrect of course, and the fact that you think that I even remotely inferred (never mind stated) that 4K is not "viable" speak volumes about either your blatant dishonesty or how poorly you read. 4K IS "viable" ...not a doubt to that fact anywhere on this thread that I've read. Of course a product/service's monetary viability does not necessarily have a thing to do with its necessity or real improvement over that which currently exists.

MY comments are, were, and will be COMPLETELY WITHIN THE EVOLVING CONTEXT OF THIS THREAD. I won't bother speaking for anyone else.

"Size and distance are interchangeable".

Ummmm, duh. Again.

No one with any sense in their head has ever denied that 4k is coming OR contended that is completely useless. Completely incorrect...again. The dialogue had moved/transitioned to why it (4K) will be lost on the VAST majority of American living rooms at current viewing distances and screen sizes....neither of which seem to be changing anytime soon.

Hence one of the reasons why it will be YEARS before we even see broadcasted 4k content. I'll believe 2015 when I see it, btw.

Try reading AND comprehending what's read and less time worrying about the all-but nearly limitless "forum bandwidth" we have on tap. Jesus.

The wannabe AVS "thread police officers" like you are a joke. You somehow posit this belief that just because you fail to follow/track the intricacies of human dialogue via text that somehow others are "out of order".

Oh: and it's ok for others to assimilate ideas so long as they fit your viewpoint. Lmao.

My position is unchanged: 4k resolution is all-but worthless tech for at LEAST 95% of the humans who watch television. Its fantastically niche value for those who utilize massive projection screens in their home and monitors upon which to work and game from 16 inches away is precisely that: niche.

That said, it will not stop CEM's from producing them...and a % of the above 95% from buying them, even if the increased resolution- in and of itself- offers no discernable benefit over the 1080 set that will get trashed, sold, or moved into junior's bedroom.

James

Actual phone call (see pic to left):

 

Tech (responding to laughter): "I'm sorry sir, did I miss something?"

Me: "Yeah, a case of Diet Mountain Dew walking across my living room."

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post #1284 of 3692 Old 05-07-2012, 04:58 PM
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AFAIK the standard for a "4K TV" is now one with a resolution of 3840×2160 which means it has 8 Megapixels of content which is 4 times the content of a 2K (1920x1080) 1080p TV. I am not aware of any current TVs which display 4K mega pixels of content.
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post #1285 of 3692 Old 05-07-2012, 07:26 PM
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A French research consortium has announced that it will soon start research on using HEVC to deliver UHDTV and it will be called the 4EVER project. There is a bit of information on the website.


Quote:
Originally Posted by coolscan View Post

NHK will show their latest 8K broadcast development at NHK Open House Expo in the end of May.

That will be interesting since the NHK did a good job of putting information online last year with the NHK 2011 Open House website. Though it is a few weeks away for anyone interested here is a link to the NHK 2012 Open House website.
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post #1286 of 3692 Old 05-09-2012, 04:51 AM
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The wannabe AVS "thread police officers" like you are a joke. You somehow posit this belief that just because you fail to follow/track the intricacies of human dialogue via text that somehow others are "out of order".

Oh: and it's ok for others to assimilate ideas so long as they fit your viewpoint. Lmao.

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Originally Posted by mastermaybe View Post

^ It never ceases to amaze that these threads get so personal around here. I certainly don't (and did not in this case) intend to insult anyone, I suppose when you think something's so clear you're just a bit miffed others do not see it the same way...and I'm certain I'm not the only one here guilty of acting a bit aggressive at times, but I'll apologize now if some take offense.

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Originally Posted by rogo View Post

You:

"That's really too bad...perhaps you should spend more time comprehending text and less time running off your virtual mouth."

"Oh, so you read perfectly well but then choose to make asinine, unfounded statements anyway"

"Dreadful.

First of all, it would be helpful if you could follow some of the Queens English.

You DID make a baseless and asinine statement..."

****************

Quote:
Originally Posted by mastermaybe View Post

Nearly 100% incorrect of course, and the fact that you think that I even remotely inferred (never mind stated) that 4K is not "viable" speak volumes about either your blatant dishonesty or how poorly you read. 4K IS "viable" ...not a doubt to that fact anywhere on this thread that I've read. Of course a product/service's monetary viability does not necessarily have a thing to do with its necessity or real improvement over that which currently exists.

MY comments are, were, and will be COMPLETELY WITHIN THE EVOLVING CONTEXT OF THIS THREAD. I won't bother speaking for anyone else.

"Size and distance are interchangeable".

Ummmm, duh. Again.

No one with any sense in their head has ever denied that 4k is coming OR contended that is completely useless. Completely incorrect...again. The dialogue had moved/transitioned to why it (4K) will be lost on the VAST majority of American living rooms at current viewing distances and screen sizes....neither of which seem to be changing anytime soon.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mastermaybe View Post

There is simply no sense behind doubling and "quadding" resolution until even a % of people start welcoming 70+" displays into their home.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mastermaybe View Post

An yes, I am highly skeptical that there will the production (never mind the sale) of 75+" displays that would take advantage of 4K rez anytime in the next 5 years...at least.

***************

Quote:
Originally Posted by mastermaybe View Post

If you can buy that television anywhere in North America right now then I stand corrected.

James

http://www.wesellpanasonic.com/produ...a-display.html
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post #1287 of 3692 Old 05-09-2012, 08:45 PM
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A consumer 4K TV annnounced for later this year is the LG 84LM9600.
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post #1288 of 3692 Old 05-09-2012, 11:01 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by specuvestor View Post

****************






***************


http://www.wesellpanasonic.com/produ...a-display.html

Why am I quoted in the post above?

There is no difference in HDMI cables. If you can see the picture without visible dropouts or sparklies, the cable is working at 100%. No other cable will display a better version of that picture. You're simply wrong if you think there is a better digital cable than one that is already working.
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post #1289 of 3692 Old 05-10-2012, 12:38 AM
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^^ As a testament to how mastermaybe is well-liked and open minded?
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post #1290 of 3692 Old 05-10-2012, 05:25 AM
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^ fantastic, but last time I checked this isn't a popularity contest.

And it would of course be fair (never mind logical) to include the balance of the context from which those statements were made...ALL of which I still stand behind 100% and really simply reiterate the point that the increased resolution of UHDTV will be completely wasted on 9x% of the American public.

But some will have a "4k" 50" television to beat their chest over...and that's what a lot of this garbage- and $60,000 SUV's- is really about anyway.

James

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Tech (responding to laughter): "I'm sorry sir, did I miss something?"

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