4k by 2k or Quad HD...lots of rumors? thoughts? - Page 7 - AVS Forum
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post #181 of 3692 Old 09-04-2011, 05:19 AM
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Originally Posted by Chronoptimist; View Post

48 fps would require entirely new cameras to shoot films on, new post-production methods etc. Only films shot from now onwards could support it. Even if they stuck to 1080p resolution, it would require new displays and players for playback.

Conversely, films are already being shot/scanned at 4K. The gamut and bit-depth of film already exceeds the 8-bit Rec.709 we have with Blu-ray.


4K content already exists, you just need the displays and a distribution method for it. Nothing currently exists for 48fps. (except whatever James Cameron might be playing around with for Avatar 2)


http://www.facebook.com/notes/peter-...50222861171558

A 48fps thread http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1328745


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Originally Posted by Chronoptimist; View Post

If all you watch is cable or satellite, it's almost not worth your while owning a 1080p screen. Broadcast is crap. I don't really understand why you keep turning up here, if you only care about broadcast.

Most of my days i watch a bluray/dvd and some discoveryHD/historyHD. The fact of the matter is that lots of people who keep turning up here, even the pro's, watch lots of cable/satellite, its really not that bad.
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post #182 of 3692 Old 09-04-2011, 08:38 AM
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Just to sum up current 4K display and broadcast development (and tease the naysayers just a little bit )

>ESPN: "Get ready for 4K Sports"

>BBC to debut Super Hi Vision during London Olympics 2012

>Toshiba 55″ 4K, Glasses-Free 3D TV With Facial Recognition. €7999, or around $11,500. (IFA Berlin sept 1)

>W. Meyer's 2x4K projectors install in his home; "World Premier 4K 3D DLP passive Stack" (AVS Forum)

In addition; JVC showed a 4K projector "behind closed doors" at IFA Berlin, details at Cedia.
Both Sony and Epson has 4K HT projectors just waiting for "strategic release".

More 4K playback and display options next year, among others; a 4K playback machine, playing back 4K material at 20Mb/s (about the same bitrate as Blu-Ray) which is almost undistinguished from 4K DCI. (media agnostic playback machine).

RED has sold about 1000 RED Epic-M 5K cameras (handmade prototypes) now they start selling the production version Epix-X. No film maker has any excuse for not filming for 4K distribution.
All 35mm filmed to date can be scanned at 4-6K for 4K distribution for re-release. Just a question whether the studios will pay for the scans.

EBU/SMTE is working on the new 4K and 8K TV/Broadcast standard, should be ready this year.

Probably a repost, but just to remind you of the 8K TV and broadcast camera development.
Saw a interview session from the EBU conference this summer. The NHK guy (Japanese broadcaster that is behind the UHD development and behind the 8K broadcast from the 2012 Olympics with BBC) didn't even mention 4K, he only talked about the 8K future in broadcast. Sounded like 4K was of no interest to them.



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post #183 of 3692 Old 09-04-2011, 09:40 AM
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Originally Posted by coolscan; View Post

EBU/SMTE is working on the new 4K and 8K TV/Broadcast standard, should be ready this year.

The EBU is a joke for quite some time now in Europe since they recommended 720p as optimum solution for current HDTV emissions, dispite their recommendation 1080i is the standard in Europe.

EBU februari 2010 ''Due to cetain technical particularities, the 720p/50 image format is recommended by the EBU Technical Committee as the optimum solution for current HDTV-emissions'' http://tech.ebu.ch/docs/techreports/tr005.pdf


According to this article * http://hometheater.about.com/od/home...xplanation.htm* Super Hi-Vision TV broadcasting - in Japan - is a decade away.

EBU/SMTE is making a broadcast standard for something that is possibly going to happen in 2020 or maybe never.
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post #184 of 3692 Old 09-04-2011, 10:02 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 8mile13 View Post

The EBU is a joke for quite some time now in Europe since they recommended 720p as optimum solution for current HDTV emissions, dispite their recommendation 1080i is the standard in Europe.

EBU februari 2010 ''Due to cetain technical particularities, the 720p/50 image format is recommended by the EBU Technical Committee as the optimum solution for current HDTV-emissions'' http://tech.ebu.ch/docs/techreports/tr005.pdf

But 720p is better for broadcast. Just because broadcasters did not adopt it does not mean the EBU is wrong. (although I believe sports channels might be 720p?)

And why is broadcast even 50Hz with HD in Europe? HD ready displays are required to support 60Hz in Europe so HD content could have made the shift over to 60Hz to match NTSC regions and avoid the PAL speed-up. 24Hz should be an option for broadcast as it makes better use of the available bandwidth and means that film/drama is played back at the original speed.

Because broadcast is terrible.

Broadcast really has no relevance for 4K displays.
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post #185 of 3692 Old 09-04-2011, 11:20 AM
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The European countries can adopt either 720p/50 or 1080i/50 as their national 3D standard. AFAIK most of the European coutries have adopted 1080i/50.
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post #186 of 3692 Old 09-04-2011, 01:38 PM
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EBU is working on setting the specs. for two standards. UHDTV 1 = 4K and UHDTV 2 = 6K.

That is the two standards they are working on setting the specs. for, so any stupidity they have promoted in the past don't come into account here.

What will be interesting is to see whether we will go through/forced through the "stepping stone" of a 4K standard before we get to 8K, or if we get straight to 8K.

Depends, I guess, on how rapid they can develop affordable high resolution screens (8K) and new high resolution transmittable compressions. And of course the various industries wish to milk the markets.
But if we have to wait as long as we have been promised Oled screens, we might have to wait "forever".

If the 3D "thingy" hadn't come up as a means to "refresh" the "outsold" TV marked, more 4K display options would have been the "market refresher".

One thing for sure; the 2 megapixel resolution of the displays we have today is just ridiculous.
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post #187 of 3692 Old 09-04-2011, 02:14 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by coolscan;
One thing for sure; the 2 megapixel resolution of the displays we have today is just ridiculous.
At what size 2megapixel resolution starts to become ridiculous IYO?
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post #188 of 3692 Old 09-04-2011, 03:49 PM
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My 55" 1080p (2 megapixel) LCD TV certainly displays better detailed 1080i(CBS or NBC) or 720p(ABC or FOX) HD content at 11 feet then my 46" 720p RP TV did at the same distamce. I would never consider switching back.
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post #189 of 3692 Old 09-05-2011, 07:06 AM
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The Sharp 8Kx4K TV at IFA Berlin September 2011.

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post #190 of 3692 Old 09-05-2011, 10:52 AM
 
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The flying car, coming to a dealer near you, yeah right!!

You folks kill me with those pictures of 4k TV's, so what.

4K TV= totally useless for 99.1% HT applications.

4K for cinema, yes!! My local theater boast 4k cinema projectors, however film still looks better.
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post #191 of 3692 Old 09-05-2011, 11:58 AM
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First impressions
With the 55ZL2, Toshiba
has proven that glasses-free 3D is indeed ready for prime time -- and, for lovers of high-end TVs, that's just the beginning. This TV has an whopping resolution of 3,840x2,160-pixels. We think it's amazing.
http://reviews.cnet.co.uk/tvs/toshib...view-50005001/
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post #192 of 3692 Old 09-05-2011, 02:11 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Auditor55; View Post



The flying car, coming to a dealer near you, yeah right!!

You folks kill me with those pictures of 4k TV's, so what.

4K TV= totally useless for 99.1% HT applications.

4K for cinema, yes!! My local theater boast 4k cinema projectors, however film still looks better.

Cool car, reminds me of Tron Legacy (that movie with the totally annoying aspect ratio switching ).
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post #193 of 3692 Old 09-06-2011, 06:37 AM
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The (1K) 1024x768 jpeg image in the post certainly cannot do justice to the detail in the actual 4k display.
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post #194 of 3692 Old 09-07-2011, 01:13 PM
 
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I'm sure it's already been mentioned, but 4K really won't matter unless the broadcast networks and cable industry is true to the resolution. Look at what we have now. Local channels have 2, 3 or more sub channels and bandwidth is sacrificed for it. Cable is a joke with all the compression artifacts. It may start out in a pure form, but it always resorts to the bottom line. How much can a provider squeeze into the bandwidth. As an example , my brother can get all his local channels from OTA, yet puts up with the derezzed versions he gets from his supposed "HD" cable box. Then he thinks there is something wrong with his TV because he sees macro blocking and other artifacts. The hype never lives up to the promise for ling. Trade offs are always made in making a buck.
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post #195 of 3692 Old 09-09-2011, 01:21 PM
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Comparing a CG rendering of a flying car to a video of a working 8k TV that was manufactured by a large TV company who would gladly sell them if the demand was there is kind of silly isn't it? I would think making concepts and having them on display is a good thing too, since it lets video camera manufacturers, content makers and end users know that this is a real capability thats simply awaiting demand. Flying car manufacturers aren't waiting for demand.


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post #196 of 3692 Old 09-09-2011, 01:28 PM
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Just to chime in here.
4k will allow a passive 1080 3D image

That's a good thing

Picture without sound is surveillance.
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post #197 of 3692 Old 09-09-2011, 04:26 PM
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All of this is great except that bluray will be obsolete in 3-4 years.
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post #198 of 3692 Old 09-09-2011, 04:55 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by m4bama; View Post

All of this is great except that bluray will be obsolete in 3-4 years.

Experts predicted that dvd will be here for at least 20 years to come. So, with bluray gone in 4 years from now we're going back to dvd in 2015?
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post #199 of 3692 Old 09-09-2011, 11:38 PM
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More Fusion APU launched at low price but no sign of ATI looking into the TV market YET, despite more "smart" TV "feature".

If content cannot catch up with resolution, the quality of VP will be very important for high resolution or large size TV.

""The AMD A4-3300 and A4-3400 desktop APUs each combine two x86 CPU cores with 160 Radeon cores, enabling powerful DirectX 11-capable discrete-level graphics and dedicated HD video processing on a single chip," the company said. "These dual-core APUs enable responsive and energy-efficient performance for everyday PC productivity and multitasking, as well as an amazing gaming experience."

Now available for $70 USD, the AMD A4-3300 APU features a CPU clock speed of 2.5 GHz and a GPU clock speed of 444 MHz. It includes the 160 Radeon (HD 6410D) cores, 1 MB of L2 cache and a TDP of just 65W. The AMD A4-3400 is slightly pricier, costing a mere five bucks more ($75 USD). This APU features a CPU clock speed of 2.7 GHz, a GPU clock speed of 600 MHz, 160 Radeon cores, 1 MB of L2 cache and a TDP of 65W."

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Originally Posted by Nielo TM View Post

AMD's and NVIDIA's VP is different to the GPU. It is just a sub component within the GPU die. It can be used as a stand alone LSI, but no TV thus far featured AMD or NVIDIA VP.

4 year ago they may have made a difference, but the 2010 Samsung Valencia LSI is superior to ATI and NVIDIA's VP. The C580 I reviewed passed the HQV test with flying colors. I haven't tested the new Panasonic VP, but I'm sure it will be identical.

But when Smart TVs evolve and require powerful GPUs to render 3D graphics, ATI and NVIDIA LSI's will make their way inside HDTVs. After all the TDP of HD5650 is only 15-19 Watts.

http://www.amd.com/us/products/noteb...00-5600.aspx#3

2-3 years from now, HD8650/9650 will have performance identical to todays $200-300 USD cards

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...5#post20238595
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post #200 of 3692 Old 09-10-2011, 08:31 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Auditor55 View Post

The flying car, coming to a dealer near you, yeah right!!

As probably one of the younger members here, it has always puzzled me as to why so many adults (and it seems to be particularly Americans) reference the flying car as if it was something they were promised when they were little and now so desperately want.

Is it an intentional joke, or has a generation of people really not considered that the entire concept is unbelievably dangerous, and is never likely to happen. You thought it was bad with old ladies on the roads? Just wait until they are in control of a flying death machine that can go anywhere they please.

Minor fender bender on the roads, your insurance will take care of a few dents in the car.
Minor fender bender in the air? Everyone dies, some unlucky person's house gets destroyed in the process.

People are bad enough driving when they only have two dimensions to think about and are confined to roads, let's not add another dimension and let them go anywhere they please.

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Originally Posted by Auditor55 View Post

You folks kill me with those pictures of 4k TV's, so what.

4K TV= totally useless for 99.1% HT applications.

4K for cinema, yes!! My local theater boast 4k cinema projectors, however film still looks better.

So what you're saying is that 4K isn't enough yet?
If it has any use in a theatre, it has a use in a home theatre setup. I want my home experience to be as good as it possibly can be, recreating the theatre experience at home, but without having to put up with everyone else at the theatre that thinks its OK to talk on their cell phones, eat noisy food, make jokes about what's going on in the film etc.

Quote:
Originally Posted by m4bama View Post

All of this is great except that bluray will be obsolete in 3-4 years.

If Blu-ray has been made obsolete by a new format in 3-4 years, it will almost certainly support at least 4K if not 8K.
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post #201 of 3692 Old 09-10-2011, 12:24 PM
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The flying car is, in fact, one of history's long-running jokes. It's already nothing but background noise on the Jetsons, which originally came out in 1962!

In the nearly 50 years since, we've seen the development of no practical flying cars, although recently approval was granted for a semi-practical, freeway-worthy light aircraft:

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/0...2.html#s305568

http://www.terrafugia.com/

From their website:

[i]How much does the Transition® cost?[i]
The anticipated base purchase price is $279,000

Since it's an airplane, you need a pilot's license (sport pilot to be specific) to fly it -- and a driver's license. You cannot take off and land outside of airports.

Let us contrast this with 4k TV.

1) Sony showed off a home-theater ready projector at CEDIA with an expected selling price of $25K. It will be out this year.

2) Toshiba showed off a 55" LCD TV with glasses-free 3D. It is due perhaps early next year. Around $12K.

The comparisons to the flying car seem highly valid. Not.

There is no difference in HDMI cables. If you can see the picture without visible dropouts or sparklies, the cable is working at 100%. No other cable will display a better version of that picture. You're simply wrong if you think there is a better digital cable than one that is already working.
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post #202 of 3692 Old 09-11-2011, 12:29 PM
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What resolution is better than reality?
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post #203 of 3692 Old 09-13-2011, 03:35 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chronoptimist View Post

As probably one of the younger members here, it has always puzzled me as to why so many adults (and it seems to be particularly Americans) reference the flying car as if it was something they were promised when they were little and now so desperately want.

Is it an intentional joke, or has a generation of people really not considered that the entire concept is unbelievably dangerous, and is never likely to happen. You thought it was bad with old ladies on the roads? Just wait until they are in control of a flying death machine that can go anywhere they please.

Minor fender bender on the roads, your insurance will take care of a few dents in the car.
Minor fender bender in the air? Everyone dies, some unlucky person's house gets destroyed in the process.

People are bad enough driving when they only have two dimensions to think about and are confined to roads, let's not add another dimension and let them go anywhere they please.

So what you're saying is that 4K isn't enough yet?
If it has any use in a theatre, it has a use in a home theatre setup. I want my home experience to be as good as it possibly can be, recreating the theatre experience at home, but without having to put up with everyone else at the theatre that thinks its OK to talk on their cell phones, eat noisy food, make jokes about what's going on in the film etc.

If Blu-ray has been made obsolete by a new format in 3-4 years, it will almost certainly support at least 4K if not 8K.

That's right, you can thank the Jetsons for people expecting the flying car.

Anyway, my opinion on 4K for home theater is that its too much, its superflous, we don't need it. It's great for the huge screens at the commericial cinemas, but overkill for HT. For that matter, 2K at commerical theaters is good enough for most people.

I remember the debates around here about 720p vs. 1080p for home theater applications.

As far reproducing the cinema expirence in homes, I think A/V manufacturers do a decent job of bringing you the latest thing in commerical cinema to the home, however they just go too far with it just for money. Trying to make 3-D the norm in the home is silly to me.

It kills me how they won't get behind a vastly superior display technology like SED but will bring you an annoying, headache causing, epileptic seizure inducing technology like 3-D TV to the home.

All of the that SmartTV crap along with it.
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post #204 of 3692 Old 09-13-2011, 05:07 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Auditor55 View Post

It kills me how they won't get behind a vastly superior display technology like SED but will bring you an annoying, headache causing, epileptic seizure inducing technology like 3-D TV to the home.

They're still working on OLED, it's just taking some time. If you can tolerate wearing a headset, the new HMZ-T1 from Sony looks to be the way to get a large screen OLED viewing experience in the next few years without breaking the bank.

SED was dead a long time ago, FED died a couple of years back. OLED is the future. There's potential from QLED and a few other technologies but OLED is definitely coming.

At the very least, 3D has brought significant improvements to motion handling for current displays, even if you don't care for 3D.
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post #205 of 3692 Old 09-14-2011, 01:10 AM
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It's true that the initial use of 2160p TVs will be limited. I am far more interested in 2160p computer monitors for both general windows/office use and for gaming.
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post #206 of 3692 Old 09-21-2011, 04:24 AM
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http://cts.vresp.com/c/?HomeTheaterR...979/b4960e3b9a


They're coming...


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post #207 of 3692 Old 09-21-2011, 05:09 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by specuvestor View Post

Just to sidetrack a bit: epic like star wars and LOTR (non Lucas) uses "modern" CGI at 2k. They are not going to be scanned at 4k. It will be interpolated at best ie scaled. And scaling using industrial scalers non-realtime are not the same as scaling on our inbuilt Mstar TV scalers on-the-fly.

Given how Lucas likes to tinker with his creations, I've no doubt the CGI mesh models will be re-rendered to a higher level of detail if need be. In fact, considering the constantly falling price of rendering resources, I bet a lot of old CGI-heavy films will be updated and re-released even at 2K.
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post #208 of 3692 Old 09-21-2011, 05:12 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave Mack View Post

http://cts.vresp.com/c/?HomeTheaterR...979/b4960e3b9a


They're coming...

Somewhat related, Intel has just recently confirmed 4K (4096x4096) resolution support in the new Ivy Bridge GPUs, and both Apple and Microsoft have implemented high DPI modes in their new operating systems saying that they expect displays to be out there within a year or two now. (MS has gone with 140% and 180% options, Apple has done the easy 200%)
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post #209 of 3692 Old 09-21-2011, 05:47 AM
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If "coming" as in what we've been discussing past 3 weeks and beyond, then yes

Next 3 years for consumers, even early adopters, maybe not.

Quote:
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Japanese has been starting products that they cannot push in the past 20 years. I wouldn't hold my breath for them.

It will be some time before the Koreans and Taiwanese get into this band wagon when huge screens are more prevalent

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post #210 of 3692 Old 09-21-2011, 05:55 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by specuvestor View Post

If "coming" as in what we've been discussing past 3 weeks and beyond, then yes

I haven't been reading the thread for the past few weeks. Sorry


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