New Bi-Level pdp drive technology - Page 2 - AVS Forum
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post #31 of 65 Old 01-16-2012, 11:27 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SiGGy View Post

Xrox is there really any major improvements you're aware of for 2012 in the Panasonic "2500" drive?

Taking a closer look at the Panasonic graphic from the Viera site and searching through the patents (keyword "motion") I would speculate the following:

Field Focus Drive
  • A motion detection circuit identifies individual frames with fast motion
  • An algorithm analyzes the frame and determines which corresponding areas of the screen will display fast motion (i.e. - which groups of pixels) and are very bright
  • Data for those pixels is generated using only a small portion of the subfields in order to reduce hold time (impulse like emission of light) and improve motion resolution.

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post #32 of 65 Old 01-16-2012, 01:40 PM
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Originally Posted by xrox View Post


Each cell contains multiple phosphors that convert wavelengths. This enables R and G and B cells to all decay in less than 1ms preventing color seperation, cross-talk, and maximizing motion resolution.

So this is perhaps the zero cross talk patent you mentioned before?

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post #33 of 65 Old 01-16-2012, 02:36 PM
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Originally Posted by gmarceau View Post

So this is perhaps the zero cross talk patent you mentioned before?

Yes. It is patent application #20110227474. Unfortunately the patent images are missing from the application. Not sure why.

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post #34 of 65 Old 01-17-2012, 10:38 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by xrox View Post

Taking a closer look at the Panasonic graphic from the Viera site and searching through the patents (keyword "motion") I would speculate the following:

Field Focus Drive
  • A motion detection circuit identifies individual frames with fast motion
  • An algorithm analyzes the frame and determines which corresponding areas of the screen will display fast motion (i.e. - which groups of pixels) and are very bright
  • Data for those pixels is generated using only a small portion of the subfields in order to reduce hold time (impulse like emission of light) and improve motion resolution.

I hope they also worked on their adaptive motion dithering tech if they plan on using "field focus drive" on "not very bright" moving objects (less subfields=a tiny color palette).

So it seems that this year, depending on picture mode, APL, frequency and motion, subfields number and weight (and maybe order who knows ?) will be even more dynamically managed. That should be fun :P
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post #35 of 65 Old 01-23-2012, 04:57 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by xrox View Post

Taking a closer look at the Panasonic graphic from the Viera site and searching through the patents (keyword "motion") I would speculate the following:

Field Focus Drive
  • A motion detection circuit identifies individual frames with fast motion
  • An algorithm analyzes the frame and determines which corresponding areas of the screen will display fast motion (i.e. - which groups of pixels) and are very bright
  • Data for those pixels is generated using only a small portion of the subfields in order to reduce hold time (impulse like emission of light) and improve motion resolution.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Orso View Post

I hope they also worked on their adaptive motion dithering tech if they plan on using "field focus drive" on "not very bright" moving objects (less subfields=a tiny color palette).

So it seems that this year, depending on picture mode, APL, frequency and motion, subfields number and weight (and maybe order who knows ?) will be even more dynamically managed. That should be fun :P

For me, this sounds startlingly.

The false contouring and the posterization of the 2011 series is dancing on the edge already. Samsung PDPs are significantly better in this (they offer smoother gradation and keep this better during motion).
I hoped they will try to reduce the dithering artifacts and improve the overall gradation. (Not only to match up with Samsung but to offer high picture quality...)

Also, their other "tricks" in the near past always caused notable side-effects ("floating blacks", "floating brightness" and increased flickering, just to name some but I would also count the old "rising black" here, even though that was purely a trick, not a side-effect...).


We know very little about the 2012 panels but I am very puzzled. On one hand, they claim better picture quality (smoother native gradation and finer dithering + better picture processing) but on the other hand:
- dynamically decreased gradation for fast moving bright areas? -> sounds like an instant source of heavy false-contouring and posterization (and you can't turn this one OFF like a frame interpolation feature...)
- brighter peak without the same amount of improvement in full-screen white? -> a big room for more ABL side-effects (color inaccuracies + the easier perception of the dynamic changes)


Those who doesn't see / care about these minor drawbacks and are able to enjoy the benefits could be very happy. But those who are well aware of false-contouring, posterization and flickering may get to the point where this becomes actually annoying instead of barely notable and tolerable.

I see all these things from time-to-time with normal content (I just saw a school-book example of Panasonic dithering artifacts on the face of Hank Moodi in Califorgia S05E02 ; not to mention how easy it is to reproduce in some video games...) but I like my Pana G30 overall (regardless of it's weaknesses because it also have some strengths, like high ANSI contrast with stable and low black level...). But if these things get only worse then don't count me as a user who wishes to upgrade...

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post #36 of 65 Old 01-23-2012, 05:04 PM
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"Fun" forum wise

PS : btw you forgot "dynamically increased gradations" depending on APL and picture mode. "Native gradation" remains 6144 afaik.
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post #37 of 65 Old 01-26-2012, 03:56 PM
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01-26-2012 patents
http://www.faqs.org/patents/app/20120019571
http://www.faqs.org/patents/app/20120019570

MLL related

Dynamic MLL : frequency of forced initializing waveforms applied to the scan electrodes is reduced as the APL decreases/size of the black area increases.

Floating blacks prevention : MLL gradually changed throughout transition period Tm from luminance of black level P1 to luminance of black level P2, and the frequency of forced initializing operations can be switched at time t2 without a change in luminance of black level caused.

Scheduled MLL jumps : changing the frequency of forced initializing waveforms to be generated according to the length of the service period of plasma display device. 5 jumps until final MLL is reached meaning that the forced initializing waveforms are at this point always generated with a frequency of once every field.
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post #38 of 65 Old 02-02-2012, 12:55 PM
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02-02-2012
http://www.faqs.org/patents/app/20120026142

MLL related stuff, kinda same as last week
forced initializing waveform, a selective initializing waveform and a non-initializing waveform(...)
the above selective initializing operation causes no discharge in the discharge cells having undergone
no sustain discharge in the immediately preceding subfield, and thus exerts substantially no influence
on the brightness of luminance of black level.
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post #39 of 65 Old 02-07-2012, 06:38 PM
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Japanese 2011 PR about improved motion resolution here (short afterglow etc). It seems Pana is using a new way to measure motion resolution thou. The advertized 2012 range 1 700 pps could be some kind of "equivalent" pps also (2011 range was at 1 200pps if I remember well).
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post #40 of 65 Old 02-07-2012, 07:14 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Orso View Post

It seems Pana is using a new way to measure motion resolution thou.

Every year, they turn the speed of the patterns up. They're optimised to show the current generation of Plasma in the best light.

I think it would be interesting to see the first generation of "1080" rated Plasmas run on the new tests for comparison.
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post #41 of 65 Old 02-07-2012, 08:16 PM
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13 more days to go and I can see the 2012 line-up in person
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post #42 of 65 Old 02-11-2012, 10:44 AM
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post #43 of 65 Old 02-12-2012, 10:54 PM
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^^ Compatibility to REC709 is 2012 NEW?
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post #44 of 65 Old 02-13-2012, 04:23 AM
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post #45 of 65 Old 03-07-2012, 01:57 PM
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It was new to me that 2012 Panasonic Plasma's have Motion Interpolation (24p Cinema Smoother).




''Movie Content with Smooth Playback 3D 24p Cinema Smoother
Enjoy naturally flowing 24p films and familiar TV-like quality. In Plasma displays, increasing the number of frames creates smoother images. When reproducing images from a 24p film source, VIERA's 24p cinema smoother function generates smooth, naturel-looking images.''


I did not know that Plasma needed smoother naturel-looking images
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post #46 of 65 Old 03-07-2012, 05:54 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 8mile13 View Post

I did not know that Plasma needed smoother naturel-looking images

Motion looks terrible with raw 24p regardless of the display. It's the low framerate that is the problem, interpolation is a necessary evil if you don't like judder.

Not all interpolation induces the "soap opera effect", though I suspect Panasonic's might. (their previous attempts have been rather poor)
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post #47 of 65 Old 03-08-2012, 07:32 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chronoptimist; View Post

Motion looks terrible with raw 24p regardless of the display. It's the low framerate that is the problem, interpolation is a necessary evil if you don't like judder.

4K is only half a job done, 24fps also needs replacement.
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post #48 of 65 Old 03-22-2012, 05:02 PM
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03-22-2012

http://www.faqs.org/patents/app/20120068987 :
(...)The erase discharge is generated selectively in a discharge cell having undergone the address discharge in the immediately preceding address period. In the sustain period of at least any one of the subfields, the voltage to be applied to the data electrodes disposed at the discharge cells having green phosphors is lower than that to be applied to the data electrodes disposed at the discharge cells having red phosphors. The method eliminates variations in setting range of driving voltage to each discharge cell, broadening the setting margin of the driving voltage(...)

http://www.faqs.org/patents/app/20120070616
(...)comprises a crystalline magnesium oxide layer that includes crystal powder having particle-size distribution in which a crystal of a predetermined particle diameter or larger is included at a predetermined ratio or higher, of powder of a magnesium oxide crystal(...)
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post #49 of 65 Old 04-02-2012, 02:28 PM
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03-29-12

http://www.faqs.org/patents/app/20120075283
http://www.faqs.org/patents/imgfull/20120075283_09
http://www.faqs.org/patents/imgfull/20120075283_05

In the present embodiment, the following processes are performed in the initializing period: [0073] causing first discharge where sustain electrode SUi is used as the negative electrode and scan electrode SCi is used as the positive electrode; [0074] then, causing first discharge where scan electrode SCi is used as the negative electrode and data electrode Dk is used as the positive electrode; [0075] then, causing second discharge where sustain electrode SUi is used as the negative electrode and scan electrode SCi is used as the positive electrode; and [0076] then, causing second discharge where scan electrode SCi is used as the negative electrode and data electrode Dk is used as the positive electrode. In order to reduce these discharges and suppress light emission caused by the discharges, the following processes are performed
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post #50 of 65 Old 04-09-2012, 02:42 PM
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04-05-2012

http://www.faqs.org/patents/app/20120081418
http://www.faqs.org/patents/imgfull/20120081418_07

In this driving method, when the gradation value of one discharge cell of two adjacent discharge cells represented in the one field is a gradation value equal to or larger than a predetermined threshold value, and the gradation value of the other discharge cell is a gradation value at which the discharge cell is lit only in a predetermined subfield, the gradation value of the other discharge cell is changed to a gradation value at which the discharge cell is unlit in all the subfields, or a gradation value at which the discharge cell is lit only in the predetermined subfield and the subfield whose luminance weight is heavy next to that of the predetermined subfield.
(...)
This method can stabilize the address operation by suppressing the abnormal discharge in the address period, and enhance the image display quality even in a plasma display apparatus including a high-definition panel.
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post #51 of 65 Old 04-09-2012, 10:30 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Orso View Post

04-05-2012

http://www.faqs.org/patents/app/20120081418
http://www.faqs.org/patents/imgfull/20120081418_07

In this driving method, when the gradation value of one discharge cell of two adjacent discharge cells represented in the one field is a gradation value equal to or larger than a predetermined threshold value, and the gradation value of the other discharge cell is a gradation value at which the discharge cell is lit only in a predetermined subfield, the gradation value of the other discharge cell is changed to a gradation value at which the discharge cell is unlit in all the subfields, or a gradation value at which the discharge cell is lit only in the predetermined subfield and the subfield whose luminance weight is heavy next to that of the predetermined subfield.
(...)
This method can stabilize the address operation by suppressing the abnormal discharge in the address period, and enhance the image display quality even in a plasma display apparatus including a high-definition panel.

Is this what is taking place in the new 2012 sets?

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post #52 of 65 Old 04-11-2012, 06:59 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gmarceau View Post

Is this what is taking place in the new 2012 sets?

I wish I knew. I doubt so. Maybe xrox could give us a clue.

The 03-22-2012 one could even be some kind of future "green blobs cure", who knows ?
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post #53 of 65 Old 04-16-2012, 03:08 PM
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04-12-2012

http://www.faqs.org/patents/app/20120086690
http://www.faqs.org/patents/imgfull/20120086690_01

[0012] The present invention provides a driving method for a panel and a plasma display apparatus where a stable address operation is performed and the contrast is improved without using a forced initializing operation.

[0013] In the driving method for a panel of the present invention, one field is formed of a plurality of subfields having an address period, a sustain period, and an erasing period, and a panel that has a plurality of discharge cells having a scan electrode, a sustain electrode, and a data electrode is driven. In an erasing period, erasing discharge is selectively generated only in the discharge cell that has undergone address discharge in the immediately preceding address period.
(...)
This method can provide a driving method for a panel where the forced initializing operation is omitted while the address operation is performed stably, the light emission that is not related to the gradation display is eliminated, and the contrast is largely improved."
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post #54 of 65 Old 04-23-2012, 11:45 AM
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04-19-2012 (amongst the sheer number of oled patents...)

http://www.faqs.org/patents/app/20120092394
http://www.faqs.org/patents/imgfull/20120092394_16

(...) a partial light-emitting rate detection circuit for dividing the image display area of the panel into a plurality of regions, and, in each of the regions, detecting the rate of the number of discharge cells to be lit with respect to the number of all discharge cells in each region, as a partial light-emitting rate of each region, in each subfield; and [0040] a light-emitting rate comparison circuit for performing magnitude comparison between the partial light-emitting rates detected in the regions in the partial light-emitting rate detection circuit.
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post #55 of 65 Old 04-26-2012, 05:24 PM - Thread Starter
 
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I visited VE today and they were busy setting up for the shootout so I they could not talk much. But a few big-wigs were there and I asked if the bi-level pdp technology was a Panasonic exclusive and one guy answered yes it's in the 2011 professional line and some of the 2012 consumer pdps.

When I looked across the shootout wall I was shocked to see as much variance among the TVs. I commented that the variance made it look like best buy's TV wall and got a few dirty looks. Then I asked if the vast differences was due only a few being calibrated and I was told yes and that the calibrators are arriving tomorrow.

For the most part the new 2012 TVs looked beautiful. It's nice to see them all lined up. You could see the differences very easily. I signed up to attend the shootout and will stop by the next time I'm assigned to work downstate.
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post #56 of 65 Old 05-04-2012, 12:47 PM
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05-03-2012

http://www.faqs.org/patents/app/20120105516

An image display region is divided into a plurality of partial display regions, the scan electrodes included in each partial display region are classified into two scan electrode groups: a scan electrode group formed of the odd-numbered scan electrodes; and a scan electrode group formed of the even-numbered scan electrodes. Scan pulses are sequentially applied to one scan electrode group, and then scan pulses are sequentially applied to the other scan electrode group. The pulse width of the scan pulses applied to the first through predetermined-number-th scan electrodes belonging to the one scan electrode group is set to be longer than the pulse width of the scan pulses applied to the remaining scan electrodes belonging to the one scan electrode group. The pulse width of the scan pulses applied to the first through predetermined-number-th scan electrodes belonging to the other scan electrode group is set to be longer than the pulse width of the scan pulses applied to the remaining scan electrodes belonging to the other scan electrode group.

Therefore, by estimating the power consumption when the progressive address operation is performed in each subfield and the power consumption when the interlaced address operation is performed in each subfield and by performing the address operation of smaller electric power, the power consumption of the data electrode driver circuit can be suppressed without reducing the image display quality.
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post #57 of 65 Old 05-07-2012, 12:18 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Orso View Post

05-03-2012

http://www.faqs.org/patents/app/20120105516

An image display region is divided into a plurality of partial display regions, the scan electrodes included in each partial display region are classified into two scan electrode groups: a scan electrode group formed of the odd-numbered scan electrodes; and a scan electrode group formed of the even-numbered scan electrodes. Scan pulses are sequentially applied to one scan electrode group, and then scan pulses are sequentially applied to the other scan electrode group. The pulse width of the scan pulses applied to the first through predetermined-number-th scan electrodes belonging to the one scan electrode group is set to be longer than the pulse width of the scan pulses applied to the remaining scan electrodes belonging to the one scan electrode group. The pulse width of the scan pulses applied to the first through predetermined-number-th scan electrodes belonging to the other scan electrode group is set to be longer than the pulse width of the scan pulses applied to the remaining scan electrodes belonging to the other scan electrode group.

Therefore, by estimating the power consumption when the progressive address operation is performed in each subfield and the power consumption when the interlaced address operation is performed in each subfield and by performing the address operation of smaller electric power, the power consumption of the data electrode driver circuit can be suppressed without reducing the image display quality.

If these patents are for 2013- could be some interesting improvements, although because of the high dynamic range in the 2012 sets, I have to imagine some of this has made it in already. Makes me wonder how this works with patents, are they published before or after this technology makes it into the product- or is there even an order that's followed?

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post #58 of 65 Old 05-07-2012, 05:31 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gmarceau View Post

If these patents are for 2013- could be some interesting improvements, although because of the high dynamic range in the 2012 sets, I have to imagine some of this has made it in already. Makes me wonder how this works with patents, are they published before or after this technology makes it into the product- or is there even an order that's followed?

Patents are published 18 months after the original applications are filed. In most countries (but not the U.S.), one must file for a patent application before use in a for-sale product or disclosure of the technology at a trade show otherwise the inventor/company would lose the right to the patent forever.

So,
--are patents published before use in product? Sometimes, but publication is on a government timeline (18 months from filing), not the timeline of the company's use of the patent-pending technlogy. Use is therefore unrelated to publication.
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post #59 of 65 Old 05-07-2012, 08:23 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gmarceau View Post

If these patents are for 2013- could be some interesting improvements, although because of the high dynamic range in the 2012 sets, I have to imagine some of this has made it in already. Makes me wonder how this works with patents, are they published before or after this technology makes it into the product- or is there even an order that's followed?

In the case of developing a novel primary technology the patent applications are often filed during the concept stage (before any reduction to practice, or with very little reduction to practice). This is often decades before any product ever makes it to market.

In the case of a known technology that you are improving with a novel change in materials/design/process..etc then the patent application is usually filed very early on during the first reduction to practice in the lab or pilot plant. This can range from months to many years before the improved product makes it to market.

Now here is the interesting part IMO. The vast majority of patents describe novel technology/methods/materials that will never ever leave the lab and the inventors know this when they write them. IIUC some of the reasons are IP portfolio strengthening, technology blocking, and leverage or litigation. Another reason is marketing. It is valuable to be seen as innovative and the sheer number of patents is marketed for this.

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post #60 of 65 Old 05-16-2012, 01:17 PM
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10-05-2012

http://www.faqs.org/patents/app/20120113165
http://www.faqs.org/patents/imgfull/20120113165_17
http://www.faqs.org/patents/imgfull/20120113165_16

The image display area of a plasma display panel is divided into a plurality of regions. In each region, the rate of the number of discharge cells to be lit with respect to the number of all discharge cells in each region is detected, as a partial light-emitting rate of each region, and the partial light-emitting rate is detected in each subfield. The region having the maximum partial light-emitting rate is detected and set as a first region. The regions adjacent to the first region are set as second regions, and a predetermined offset value is added to the partial light-emitting rates of the second regions so as to provide corrected partial light-emitting rates.

(...)

[0168] A change in the emission luminance caused by a change in the discharge intensity of the address discharge is small, and thus is unlikely to be perceived by the user. Therefore, in a subfield where the number of sustain pulses is sufficiently large, even the occurrence of such a phenomenon causes no problem. However, in a subfield where the number of sustain pulses is small and a change in the emission luminance caused by the address discharge is likely to be perceived, the change in the emission luminance of the address discharge between adjacent regions can be perceived as an unnatural luminance change by the user.

[0169] Especially in a dark image having a low averaged picture level or in an image having a relatively small change in gradation values (e.g. an image where a flat pattern of a wall or a sky, for example, appears on the entire surface of the image display surface), even a slight luminance change can be perceived by the user easily.

[0170] In order to address this problem, in this embodiment, an offset value is added to the partial light-emitting rates detected in partial light-emitting rate detection circuit 47. This prevents the region undergoing an address operation first from being adjacent to the region undergoing the address operation in a later part of the order of address operations.
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