LG Official Announces 55" OLED for CES- - Page 10 - AVS Forum
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post #271 of 862 Old 01-15-2012, 12:15 PM
 
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Originally Posted by greenland View Post

I wish to remind those habitual predictions making egomaniacs, that they are just wasting our time with them, since they are just guesses that no one can base their purchasing decisions on. Just like the rooster crowing at each morning is not what causes the sun to rise, neither do your barrage of predictions and defenses of them, cause products to be brought to market or not.

Put your swollen egos in slings, and stop hijacking every OLED thread with your self absorbed blather. I have checked with Oslo; and they have confirmed that they will not be giving out a 2012 Nobel Award for Best Predictor, in the category of outstanding achievement in self-aggrandizement.

No need for you to keep hijacking every OLED thread. Buy yourselves some crystal balls, and turn pro by joining the carnivals. .

Nobel? They have a become nothing but a tool for the political elite, the oligarchy. I spit in their general direction.
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post #272 of 862 Old 01-15-2012, 12:18 PM
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Originally Posted by CATYPH202; View Post

-Just nonsense.

"As said before, it's a matter of calibration and the OLED technology is perfectly capable of reproducing accurate and correct colors and pictures in general."

"Therefore I examined EL9500 with different color gradients from our monitorTest software (it's free). I saw some different results depending on what picture preset I used. The vivid preset gave me some bands in the smooth color gradients which means not all colors are perfectly distinguished. But in my calibrated preset (and also the expert modes) the color gradients was silky smooth. Pretty much all colors were reproduces to perfection.

Again, this proves what I said in the previous section. The OLED technology is perfectly capable of reproduced amazing picture quality - if the manufacturers allow it to. This is really a matter of calibration and if manufacturers stay faithful to the correct picture element, the OLED technology takes care of the magic."

"I'm not saying that OLED is perfect in terms of response time but it's pretty close. By comparing it to both plasma and LCD I saw that blurring on fast motion is almost nonexistent on OLED. I'm saying almost because I did see some blurring on fast motion but actually this is an issue with the frame rate of the input signal, and not really the OLED technology."
- http://www.flatpanelshd.com/review.p...&id=1289487180

*This is not an actual product review but instead a technology review. We want to examine picture quality on the OLED panel and thus predicting the future potential of OLED
http://www.flatpanelshd.com/review.p...&id=1289487180
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post #273 of 862 Old 01-15-2012, 12:21 PM
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Taichi, thanks for the links. I really think that paints a decent -- if limited context -- for what I've been predicting/forecasting. And I'd say it paints a favorable one for me. I let actual developments influence my thinking. And it's fair to see things have perhaps moved a bit more quickly that I would have anticipated a year ago. That said, we'll see when the stuff is actually out and for sale.

Rich, I'll have to read the other one when I'm not on an airplane. I can't say why I wrote 2016 there, which doesn't align well with a lot of my other comments. But 2016 will be wrong.

Greenland, whatever.

Catyph, believe whatever you want. The entire Samung demo loop had every color trail in the whole thing with full screen following trails on purpose. Why would they do this? Hint: To mask the phosphor persistence issues the displays are clearly currently having. Will these be fixed before shipping? Quite possibly. But you don't make every moving picture on your demo loop designed to show same color motion trails in the direction of the motion unless you are hiding a problem. And as for color, not one color on the Samsung demo was real or from nature. Well, maybe one.

There is no difference in HDMI cables. If you can see the picture without visible dropouts or sparklies, the cable is working at 100%. No other cable will display a better version of that picture. You're simply wrong if you think there is a better digital cable than one that is already working. (Oh, and plasma didn't die because of logistics problems, nor does OLED ship in big boxes because it comes from Korea.)
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post #274 of 862 Old 01-15-2012, 12:34 PM
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I still say OLED will kill all picture. Even with whatever 1st issues it may have. They've been messing with OLED for what. 5 years now? It's just now coming into production. My guess is just that. A guess. But I for one am very excited. Might just sell my sets now while there actually worth something lol.
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post #275 of 862 Old 01-15-2012, 12:36 PM
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For the first time in years we are finally entering a revolution in display technology.
I predict these new OLED TVs are going to revolutionize not only the TV business but more generally display tech for consumers (Pc monitors and also projectors).

LG plans on selling at least 200,000 of these this year only. They have stated that not only they can now make big screen OLED but also that they can make them cheaply. In fact they have said that they can make them cheaper than LCD. Of course in the next couple of years these OLED TV will be more expensive as they can command a high price premium. Which is fair. But they have also said that they are planning on selling these OLED TVs at the same price as LCD by 2016.
My guess - with regard to pricing - based on zero inside information - is that this 55" TV will retail for 5500$ this year. But will soon - during 2013 - come down to more reasonable numbers. This will be purely based on offer and demand principles and not the cost of actually making the TV - since LG have said producing them is not an expensive process any longer.

Moreover, LG has just said that they are already looking at making 70" and 80" OLED TV. This is interesting because it shows that LG has indeed the capability to create large OLED panel. My sense is that these larger screens will enter the market at the same high price point of the 55" and will push down the price of this year 55".

As for 4K TV - or even 8K TV - OLED technology could easily handle this. If you consider the technology behind OLED - resolution is a non issue and can be increased easily. Which is not the case with LCD in particular. The reason why this year 55" is not 4K is simply because it is not clear if anybody cares about 4k. There is zero content today for 4k. And a relatively small 55" TV would not look much better in 4k vs current HD signal. Moreover today's HD signal is not even HD because of too much compression for all HD channels (be it satellite or cable). 4k would be useful for screens plugged to a PC or maybe to do 3d with both signal in perfect HD.

Now about projector technology. I have a home theater with a 120" screen in my home for years. I love it. But I am starting to think that projector business might be dead now. The value proposition was always to have a large screen - compared to TV set. But if I consider that OLED TV at 55" already exist and that in a few years they will be priced like LCD. And since the bezel is currently 1 mm thin. It seems logical to think I could buy 4 of them in a few years and put them next to each other on my wall. I would then have 4k and a screen quality that is today absolutely impossible to achieve with any projector technology. The prices would probably be reasonable if priced like LCD - maybe something like 4 * 1000k $ - or maybe less since LCD at 55" can already cost less than 1000$ today. In fact - in a few years - we might have OLED screen with no bezel at all.
Since my projector is already driven by a PC - I can already today take a video signal and output it on many screen with no effort at all - so 4 screens will be trivial.

I now need to find a way to wait for a few years (till 2015 or 16 according to LG) to be able to buy reasonably priced OLED TVs. maybe I should just get one last projector to last me for a few years ... before I can put a perfect display system on my wall.

Always looking for a better home theater system...
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post #276 of 862 Old 01-15-2012, 03:26 PM
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Originally Posted by frederic View Post

For the first time in years we are finally entering a revolution in display technology...

...LG plans on selling at least 200,000 of these this year only. They have stated that not only they can now make big screen OLED but also that they can make them cheaply. In fact they have said that they can make them cheaper than LCD...

...Moreover, LG has just said that they are already looking at making 70" and 80" OLED TV. This is interesting because it shows that LG has indeed the capability to create large OLED panel. My sense is that these larger screens will enter the market at the same high price point of the 55" and will push down the price of this year 55".

As for 4K TV - or even 8K TV - OLED technology could easily handle this. If you consider the technology behind OLED - resolution is a non issue and can be increased easily. Which is not the case with LCD in particular....

...I now need to find a way to wait for a few years (till 2015 or 16 according to LG) to be able to buy reasonably priced OLED TVs. ...

Yeah. Exciting times for videophiles and cinephiles.

I certainly won't miss delivery men struggling with a heavy display.

These new panels put me in mind of the flat, wall size videoscreens in the Sci Fi classic Fahrenheit 451.
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post #277 of 862 Old 01-15-2012, 04:02 PM
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Originally Posted by CATYPH202 View Post

-Just nonsense.

"As said before, it’s a matter of calibration and the OLED technology is perfectly capable of reproducing accurate and correct colors and pictures in general."

"Therefore I examined EL9500 with different color gradients from our monitorTest software (it’s free). I saw some different results depending on what picture preset I used. The “vivid” preset gave me some bands in the smooth color gradients which means not all colors are perfectly distinguished. But in my calibrated preset (and also the expert modes) the color gradients was silky smooth. Pretty much all colors were reproduces to perfection.

Again, this proves what I said in the previous section. The OLED technology is perfectly capable of reproduced amazing picture quality – if the manufacturers allow it to. This is really a matter of calibration and if manufacturers stay faithful to the correct picture element, the OLED technology takes care of the magic."

"I’m not saying that OLED is perfect in terms of response time but it’s pretty close. By comparing it to both plasma and LCD I saw that blurring on fast motion is almost nonexistent on OLED. I’m saying “almost” because I did see some blurring on fast motion but actually this is an issue with the frame rate of the input signal, and not really the OLED technology."
- http://www.flatpanelshd.com/review.p...&id=1289487180

Except that the Sharp Elite already have 1080p temporal resolution.

OLED uses sample-and-hold just like LCD, so without processing it won't have perfect motion resolution regardless of its response time. So the question becomes, what sort of processing are they using? If black/contrast-adjusted frame insertion combined with the response time is sufficient to get them to 1080p ... then hopefully we'll see it right away (though that's not a given).

If however it's not, and they'd need to do something like simulated backlight scanning ... I don't know if we can expect that to show up immediately. Counting on LG to get video processing right day 1 is a bit risky.




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Originally Posted by JukeBox360 View Post

I still say OLED will kill all picture. Even with whatever 1st issues it may have. They've been messing with OLED for what. 5 years now? It's just now coming into production. My guess is just that. A guess. But I for one am very excited. Might just sell my sets now while there actually worth something lol.

How long have they been messing with LCD and Plasma?





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Originally Posted by taichi4 View Post

Good points.

My guess is that OLED (or Quantum Dot) will fairly rapidly replace LCD and Plasma as the display technology of choice.

Define 'fairly rapidly'? They both have the long-term potential to be even cheaper than LCD to produce ... but when will we get there? I expect the transition to be a bit slower than many are giving credit. I know this is avsforum ... but not everyone spends 5 G's or more on a TV

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An emissive display has too many advantages over any combination of backlighting and LCD shutters.

OLED uses sample-and-hold, so it actually has the same limitations as LCD (though with a much better response time).
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post #278 of 862 Old 01-15-2012, 04:43 PM
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Originally Posted by Raistlin_HT View Post

OLED uses sample-and-hold, so it actually has the same limitations as LCD (though with a much better response time).

As pointed out earlier, unlike LCD pixel circuits, OLED and LED pixel circuits (current driven) have the opportunity to control duty cycle. The Sony 11" OLED TV flickered just llike PDP and CRT. IIRC there is no inherent sample and hold with OLED. It "may" be used in order to maximize lifetime and reduce flicker.

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post #279 of 862 Old 01-15-2012, 04:50 PM
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LOL, you can't even remember what you say.

Everything you type in here is just flip after flop after flip.

Here's your link, saying you think they won't be manufactured till 2016.

flip, flop, flip, flop

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Originally Posted by rogo View Post

Whenever he claims I'm wrong about something, he never actually quotes the post where I'm wrong. It would be interesting to read what I actually said vs. what he claims I said, but I'm not bothering to feed the troll anymore.

I would agree that by 2016 we'll see much better and cheaper OLEDs and that they will have a significant market presence. Perhaps they'll even start to eclipse the 55" wall. But a standard? Not sure what that means. I'm guessing that even 10% of the TV market would be about all they could hope for by then and that might prove high.


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post #280 of 862 Old 01-15-2012, 05:09 PM
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Originally Posted by David_B View Post

LOL, you can't even remember what you say.

Everything you type in here is just flip after flop after flip.

Here's your link, saying you think they won't be manufactured till 2016.

flip, flop, flip, flop

That was already linked. As usual, your contributions to this conversation exist only in theory.

There is no difference in HDMI cables. If you can see the picture without visible dropouts or sparklies, the cable is working at 100%. No other cable will display a better version of that picture. You're simply wrong if you think there is a better digital cable than one that is already working. (Oh, and plasma didn't die because of logistics problems, nor does OLED ship in big boxes because it comes from Korea.)
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post #281 of 862 Old 01-15-2012, 05:11 PM
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Originally Posted by xrox View Post

As pointed out earlier, unlike LCD pixel circuits, OLED and LED pixel circuits (current driven) have the opportunity to control duty cycle. The Sony 11" OLED TV flickered just llike PDP and CRT. IIRC there is no inherent sample and hold with OLED. It "may" be used in order to maximize lifetime and reduce flicker.

PDP uses a binary stepped PWM waveform in order to create grey-scale (which also has the benefit of improving temporal resolution) and CRT uses electron scanning. Not the same as what you're mentioning, though with similar goals (even if they're arguably side-effects).

I do know some of Sony's top OLED pro monitors use some sort of current control to improve motion (haven't researched the exact method) ... but are you sure their 11" OLED did? A while back I viewed it several times (was working in Rolling Meadows, Il and used to visit ABT Electronics a lot - amazing store), and it really didn't look to have particularly great motion resolution. Admittedly I didn't have as much experience comparing displays at that point though, so it's hard to recall in complete context. I certainly remember it sticking out as the display's most obvious flaw however. So if that really is the method being used here, I really don't think it's sufficient.

Regardless my point is we don't actually know what these displays are doing. Basically all methods used to improve motion reduce brightness, which means they need to use higher current in order to compensate. Doing so means more wear (aging) of the OLED's as you mentioned ... which may not prove tenable at this point. Hopefully that's not the case, but we really don't know.

Moreover, simply turning off the image really can't get what we need. You can't get perfect motion resolution and would introduce notable flicker. A more complex algorithm is necessary, which again we don't have any information showing they are doing this.
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post #282 of 862 Old 01-15-2012, 05:18 PM
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Originally Posted by frederic View Post

For the first time in years we are finally entering a revolution in display technology.
I predict these new OLED TVs are going to revolutionize not only the TV business but more generally display tech for consumers (Pc monitors and also projectors).

I'm not sure what this revolution is supposed to look like, exactly. I mean I do think this is all a good thing, but these are basically thinner, lighter flat panels with the same resolution and smaller sizes for the foreseeable future -- albeit at much higher prices. Not exactly a revolution at this time.
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LG plans on selling at least 200,000 of these this year only. They have stated that not only they can now make big screen OLED but also that they can make them cheaply. In fact they have said that they can make them cheaper than LCD. Of course in the next couple of years these OLED TV will be more expensive as they can command a high price premium. Which is fair. But they have also said that they are planning on selling these OLED TVs at the same price as LCD by 2016.

There's a lot of time between now and then, of course. LG's manufacturing method is highly scaleable, but the timetable for these things has a way of getting away from what's intended. They will not be able to displace even a meaningful fraction of LCD production in 4 years, so there is no reason to sell OLEDs that cheaply that soon -- even if production cost has fallen that fast. They'd still charge at least a small premium since they will be supply constrained somewhat.
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My guess - with regard to pricing - based on zero inside information - is that this 55" TV will retail for 5500$ this year. But will soon - during 2013 - come down to more reasonable numbers.

My guess is that your number is more correct for 2013's price.
Quote:


This will be purely based on offer and demand principles and not the cost of actually making the TV - since LG have said producing them is not an expensive process any longer.

You are confusing long-run price with short-run price. In the short run yields will be low (they've said so) and therefore costs will be very high.
Quote:


Moreover, LG has just said that they are already looking at making 70" and 80" OLED TV. This is interesting because it shows that LG has indeed the capability to create large OLED panel. My sense is that these larger screens will enter the market at the same high price point of the 55" and will push down the price of this year 55".

Except they are using 8G, which doesn't lend itself to anything larger than 60". They've never mass produced an LCD larger than that for good reason.
Quote:


As for 4K TV - or even 8K TV - OLED technology could easily handle this. If you consider the technology behind OLED - resolution is a non issue and can be increased easily.

With Samsung's method, resolution increasing is not even remotely in the offing at this time. With LG's method, yes, resolution could be increased.
Quote:


Which is not the case with LCD in particular.

It's entirely trivial to increase LCD resolution on 50" TVs. The resolution of those is 1/4th that of my computer screen.
Quote:


And a relatively small 55" TV would not look much better in 4k vs current HD signal.

Sharp's demo at CES proves otherwise.
Quote:


I now need to find a way to wait for a few years (till 2015 or 16 according to LG) to be able to buy reasonably priced OLED TVs. maybe I should just get one last projector to last me for a few years ... before I can put a perfect display system on my wall.

You are not buying 4 cheap bezel-free OLEDs in 3-4 years. I'm not sure you are buying bezel-free OLEDs anytime soon, but I do agree they will be sold with minimal bezels/seams for videowalls. OLEDs will make for great videowalls.

There is no difference in HDMI cables. If you can see the picture without visible dropouts or sparklies, the cable is working at 100%. No other cable will display a better version of that picture. You're simply wrong if you think there is a better digital cable than one that is already working. (Oh, and plasma didn't die because of logistics problems, nor does OLED ship in big boxes because it comes from Korea.)
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post #283 of 862 Old 01-15-2012, 05:25 PM
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Originally Posted by Raistlin_HT View Post

PDP uses a binary stepped PWM waveform in order to create grey-scale (which also has the benefit of improving temporal resolution) and CRT uses electron scanning. Not the same as what you're mentioning, though with similar goals (even if they're arguably side-effects).

Actually Pioneer uses contiguous subfields and Panasonic uses combinations. In both cases temporal and spatial dithering is used AFAIK. I'm not sure what connection you are making to what I said??

PDP duty cycles is ~35% "effective"
CRT duty cycle is ~ 10% or less
LCD duty cycle is 100% intrinsic (can be altered extrinsically)

OLED duty cycles can be intrisically controlled

That was my post

Quote:
Originally Posted by Raistlin_HT View Post

I do know some of Sony's top OLED pro monitors use some sort of current control to improve motio. ... but are you sure their 11" OLED did?

100% sure since I demoed one a few years ago. It was a flicker machine.

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Originally Posted by Raistlin_HT View Post

Regardless my point is we don't actually know what these displays are doing.

Your previous post suggests that OLED is inherent 100% S&H like LCD. It is not. As I said, manufacturers may choose to do so to maximize life.


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Originally Posted by Raistlin_HT View Post

Moreover, simply turning off the image really can't get what we need. You can't get perfect motion resolution and would introduce notable flicker. A more complex algorithm is necessary, which again we don't have any information showing they are doing this.

OLED has the advantage of an intrinsic short response time and controllable duty cycle. This enables the optimization of motion via combinations of duty cycle control and interpolation or BFI.

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post #284 of 862 Old 01-15-2012, 05:48 PM
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Actually Pioneer uses contiguous subfields and Panasonic uses combinations. In both cases temporal and spatial dithering is used AFAIK. I'm not sure what connection you are making to what I said??

PDP duty cycles is ~35% "effective"
CRT duty cycle is ~ 10% or less
LCD duty cycle is 100% intrinsic (can be altered extrinsically)

OLED duty cycles can be intrisically controlled

That was my post

Unless I'm misunderstanding Panasonic's method (I wasn't considering Pioneer since they're no more ), the 'combination of subfields' is PWM where the duty cycle changes in a base 2 stepping increment (or decrement, I don't know which direction they use). And it's how the sub-pixels actually generate luma values. Is that not correct?

As for the connection with that you said, I was simply stating the mechanics are totally different between the technologies. But sure, at a high level controlling duty cycle in some manner is used either directly or indirectly for improving motion handling.

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100% sure since I demoed one a few years ago. It was a flicker machine.

Maybe that's what I remember.

Obviously though, that means its 'solution' is hardly suitable for a TV

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Your previous post suggests that OLED is inherent 100% S&H like LCD. It is not. As I said, manufacturers may choose to do so to maximize life.

I didn't mean to imply it has to be ... just that many current examples do use it - phones, etc.

Quote:


OLED has the advantage of an intrinsic short response time and controllable duty cycle. This enables the optimization of motion via combinations of duty cycle control and interpolation or BFI.

I agree, sorry if that wasn't clear.

What I'm saying is we have no information on whether they are using anything like that ... and LG isn't exactly known for stellar video processing as far as I know.
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post #285 of 862 Old 01-15-2012, 06:01 PM
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Originally Posted by Raistlin_HT View Post

Unless I'm misunderstanding Panasonic's method (I wasn't considering Pioneer since they're no more ), the 'combination of subfields' is PWM where the duty cycle changes in a base 2 stepping increment (or decrement, I don't know which direction they use). And it's how the sub-pixels actually generate luma values. Is that not correct?

The weights are no longer binary. All PDPs to some degree produce gray levels via halftoning (temporal and spatial) AFAIK.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Raistlin_HT View Post

I didn't mean to imply it has to be ... just that many current examples do use it - phones, etc.

Yes. Makes sense.

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post #286 of 862 Old 01-15-2012, 06:41 PM
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The weights are no longer binary. All PDPs to some degree produce gray levels via halftoning (temporal and spatial) AFAIK.

You wouldn't happen to have any references on how this works would you? I'm curious how the tech works.
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post #287 of 862 Old 01-15-2012, 06:43 PM
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That's the way it seems to me. I was pretty early on excited by the Elite. then saw it, then read the thread. My reaction is pretty much the same. I conversed with a very fine calibrator who told me all four Elites he's calibrated had the pulsing. Also I didn't think that even in THX mode that it struck me as the "best tv ever made." It's very high priced for a tv with such defects, and the way it was marketed capitalized on people's memories of the Kuro, and the videophile dream of a perfect display.

I just don't see how it will compete with a TV with perfect blacks, achieved without local dimming, an appreciably higher contrast ratio, and tremendously quick response.

OLED and Quantum Dot are very, very promising.

By the way, I like Sharp displays, and the way they're exploring 4K. If the Elite were more reasonably priced it would be better and more appropriate.
It's a very good display with some flaws. Maybe they'll fix them...maybe in their next release. But I'm not crazy about Local Dimming.

I was very excited when I heard Sharp was going to do the high end with the Elite, so I drove over to Magnolia to look at it, played around with it and came to the conclusion that it isn't really better than the Kuro, it is just a very good LCD. I don't think it rendered colors as perfetly as it could, while granted it probably wasn't calibrated. They were showing Star Wars which I've seen more than a few times, I don't think its motion response was as good as that of an fairly generic plasma. Don't get me wrong, it wasn't bad by any means. I just think for the price I'd expect more. Still Sharp did a decent job and seem to way ahead of the game when it comes to other manufacturers in producing high quality large LCD panels. I just think its quite expensive. If there are a lot of returns, I'd probably pick one up if I could get it for about 1/2 off. I'd bet this will lead to filter down as time goes on.
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post #288 of 862 Old 01-15-2012, 07:09 PM
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Originally Posted by Raistlin_HT View Post

You wouldn't happen to have any references on how this works would you? I'm curious how the tech works.

Tons of info found in display journals such as IDW and SID. Also a lot of excellent info in patents from each company.

Over thinking, over analyzing separates the body from the mind
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post #289 of 862 Old 01-16-2012, 08:23 AM
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Ever hear of the iPad?

Little thing, sells like a million a minute?

Apple was the first one with a usable tablet. If it had been oh let's say Samsung, it's possible they would own the market, not Apple.

Facts are, many times someone with a superior product, the first one, can get the majority of the market.

OLED will be the market leader. LG will lower the price as fast as they can, hoping nobody else can, so that they can be the king of OLED. The TV that almost everyone (except you) that saw it at CES was blow away by. That even non-enthusiasts get excited about when they see it.


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I'm not sure what this revolution is supposed to look like, exactly. I mean I do think this is all a good thing, but these are basically thinner, lighter flat panels with the same resolution and smaller sizes for the foreseeable future -- albeit at much higher prices. Not exactly a revolution at this time.


There's a lot of time between now and then, of course. LG's manufacturing method is highly scaleable, but the timetable for these things has a way of getting away from what's intended. They will not be able to displace even a meaningful fraction of LCD production in 4 years, so there is no reason to sell OLEDs that cheaply that soon -- even if production cost has fallen that fast. They'd still charge at least a small premium since they will be supply constrained somewhat.


My guess is that your number is more correct for 2013's price.


You are confusing long-run price with short-run price. In the short run yields will be low (they've said so) and therefore costs will be very high.


Except they are using 8G, which doesn't lend itself to anything larger than 60". They've never mass produced an LCD larger than that for good reason.


With Samsung's method, resolution increasing is not even remotely in the offing at this time. With LG's method, yes, resolution could be increased.


It's entirely trivial to increase LCD resolution on 50" TVs. The resolution of those is 1/4th that of my computer screen.


Sharp's demo at CES proves otherwise.


You are not buying 4 cheap bezel-free OLEDs in 3-4 years. I'm not sure you are buying bezel-free OLEDs anytime soon, but I do agree they will be sold with minimal bezels/seams for videowalls. OLEDs will make for great videowalls.


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post #290 of 862 Old 01-16-2012, 10:53 AM
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I was very excited when I heard Sharp was going to do the high end with the Elite, so I drove over to Magnolia to look at it, played around with it and came to the conclusion that it isn't really better than the Kuro, it is just a very good LCD. I don't think it rendered colors as perfetly as it could, while granted it probably wasn't calibrated. They were showing Star Wars which I've seen more than a few times, I don't think its motion response was as good as that of an fairly generic plasma. Don't get me wrong, it wasn't bad by any means. I just think for the price I'd expect more. Still Sharp did a decent job and seem to way ahead of the game when it comes to other manufacturers in producing high quality large LCD panels. I just think its quite expensive. If there are a lot of returns, I'd probably pick one up if I could get it for about 1/2 off. I'd bet this will lead to filter down as time goes on.

Although my next display..sometime from now...will likely be OLED, Sharp will be migrating some of its Elite features to the new, more affordable, 9 series (945?) in 60 and 70 inch sizes. This always happens with technology, and it will be interesting to see how close the PQ will be to that of the Elite...for those who like LCD.
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post #291 of 862 Old 01-16-2012, 12:05 PM
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I was really impressed with the speed LG's flooded the market with their "Passive 3D" technology -no price premiums, waiting, "elits","Magnolias" and other BS -just straight to the masses! It's extremely attractive marketing move, but it requires a lot of courage, commitment and resources. And every report, so far, indicates the same bold move they will pull with OLED. I'm just gonna start saving money...
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post #292 of 862 Old 01-16-2012, 01:26 PM
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Originally Posted by David_B View Post

Ever hear of the iPad?

Little thing, sells like a million a minute?

It's so rare for you to approximately get a fact right I was all excited for a minute because Apple sold something approximately 40 million iPads last year and I was like, "Ooh, that's close to right, there are 525,000 or so minutes in a year." Then I realized that's only like 100 per minute, which is close to a million -- except for all those pesky zeroes.
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Apple was the first one with a usable tablet. If it had been oh let's say Samsung, it's possible they would own the market, not Apple.

It isn't possible unless they had the OS/ecosystem part down. What makes iPad great is one part hardware, two parts software, two parts the way it works with everything else. Everyone is replicating the hardware just fine; no one is making any progress -- except Amazon.
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Facts are, many times someone with a superior product, the first one, can get the majority of the market.

Actually, first-mover advantage is rarely important in technology products. Very rarely. Part of the reason is that the first mover very rarely has a superior product.

Examples of hugely successful non-first-mover products just in the recent era:

1) iPod -- About the 50th MP3 player on the market. Astronomically expensive at launch; controlled 70% of the market for years.
2) Google -- About the 15th major search engine; launched when it was pretty well considered that search was "solved". One of the greatest generators of cash in history.
3) Kinect -- Not at all the first motion controller but a genuine leap past the ground the Wii had plowed.
4) iPhone -- About the 50th attempt at a smartphone. Astronomically expensive at launch. With relatively low unit sales, garners more than half of the profits in the entire smartphone industry. (iPad incidentally was about the 100th try at a tablet. Only revisionist history would consider it the first anything... Well, the first successful one, I suppose).
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OLED will be the market leader.

By what metric? It cannot outsell LCD for years, no matter what the success is. If you only include TVs, you assume OLED will sell 5 million units next year (seems high, but it will serve the point), and double that penetration for several years, here is the market share of OLED for the next several years:

2013: 2%
2014: 4%
2015: 8%
2016: 16%
2017: 32%
2018: 64%

There is something called the "law of large numbers" which will explain why the last of those values cannot actually happen. It would represent an increase from approximately 80 million to 160 million TVs in one year. But the point will be self evident to most people reading this (some of you, of course, will miss it... this is directed at the open minded).

It's not actually possible for OLED to be the market leader in just TVs until 5 years from now or later. If you include computer monitors and laptop screens, you'd probably have to push that out farther. Even LG admits they won't have cost parity until about 2017 and that's actually when the real growth will begin to occur. It's possible unit sales will double before then, but more likely from a smaller base -- and possibly growing at a slower rate.
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LG will lower the price as fast as they can, hoping nobody else can, so that they can be the king of OLED. The TV that almost everyone (except you) that saw it at CES was blow away by. That even non-enthusiasts get excited about when they see it.

In fact, I'm hardly the only person not blown away by it. And, in fact, it actually doesn't even matter. One thing you cannot grasp which might blow the mind of some people reading this:

OLED TVs are not a new product at all. They are a new technology used to improve an existing product. How much of an improvement? Reasonable people can certainly debate that. Some of their most significant advantages (power consumption, weight) don't actually translate into anything very important in how people use 55" televisions. For this reason, they won't be selling points for them anytime soon.

But there is certainly something to the improved viewing angles over LCD, the improved contrast over all but the best LCDs (maybe it will eclipse those, too, we'll see). So far, there isn't evidence of anything approaching reference or life-like color. Further, there was evidence on things like the LG prototype of false contouring (the cloud scenes in particular looked like a mess) and of some kind of image trails on the Samsung (again, you don't concoct an entire demo with image trails on every moving image if you aren't trying to hide something).

One interesting way of showing how unimportant OLED is in the grand scheme of things is that there is no forecast I'm aware of from DisplaySearch or anyone else suggesting that the TV market will grow any faster than it was already expected to based on the sales of OLEDs. That says everything you need to know. (Now, of course, we are videophiles. We want the best TVs. If OLEDs are those, we are very excited, but that's another matter if Mr. Sixpack and Ms. Anytown aren't any more motivated to buy a TV than they were a few months ago.

Incidentally, I find it laughable that some people think Samsung is going to sit around and let LG just gobble market share like PacMan after a juice cleanse. LG's manufacturing method is going to be easier to ramp because, well, LG had to find some way of working around the fact they don't have billions to do it the way Samsung is going to. Samsung is either going to plow forward and make "true RGB" OLEDs come hell or high water -- or they will retrench and knock off LG's method. (They've already stated as much, if you can read between the lines... which weren't tricky to read between, by the way.)

From the perspective of wanting OLED to grow as rapidly as possible, I do believe that having the two of them going out like fighters in the Octagon is a win. It will be better still if Panasonic joins the fray, if CMI and AUO start constructing fabs next year, if Sony commercializes their CLED, etc. There is some amount of speed the industry can generate on its own, but it's up to the mfrs. to actually do so. In the meantime, their motivations around OLED have nearly nothing to do with those of enthusiasts. LG selling 200K this year and 2-3x that next year will serve its motivations just fine.

There is no difference in HDMI cables. If you can see the picture without visible dropouts or sparklies, the cable is working at 100%. No other cable will display a better version of that picture. You're simply wrong if you think there is a better digital cable than one that is already working. (Oh, and plasma didn't die because of logistics problems, nor does OLED ship in big boxes because it comes from Korea.)
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post #293 of 862 Old 01-16-2012, 05:12 PM
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Everything you said is correct. But Joe6P doesn't care much for anything above 1,500 for TV, so leave those guys alone. WE ARE talking VIDEOPHILES here. And what about power consumption/weight as main advantage for those consumers -are you serious,like KURO's? And even being small percent of population - A/V-philes are still huge market (money-wise). So, may be you can provide your vision of market share for 2012-2018 for "Elite","Qualia","Runco" and "B&O"? Yeah, it's gonna crush predicted OLED numbers, sure... NOT! I don't want OLED TV cost 15 hundred. And either 15 thousand. But gradually coming from 6K to 3K? I would wait for 3K, but a lot of people would buy it for 5K - it's a PERFECT DISPLAY ! after all, c'mon.
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post #294 of 862 Old 01-16-2012, 05:54 PM
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Catyph, my point is this: OLEDs currently offer major steps forward in power consumption and weight. In other metrics? No, they are evolutionary, not revolutionary. The ANSI contrast on the Sharp Elite is already so good that the OLEDs will have a tough time besting it by more than a small fraction (except off axis, where they ought to get a bit boost, but, again, we are talking >20 degrees off axis). Many TVs can already resolve 1080 lines on moving pictures. OLEDs cannot do this better. A $2500 Samsung plasma has "reference color". An OLED cannot do better.

Bottom line: Doing everything well in one display is going to be something that OLEDs can offer. But before the ink is even dry on the first ads, there are going to be 4k LCDs entering the marketplace with 4 times the resolution of the OLEDs. There are already 60, 65, 70 and 80-inch panels for sale -- sizes OLEDs can't or won't match for 1-5 years (depending on the size).

I have to tell you that your belief that videophiles represent some kind of good market hasn't been borne out over the last decade. The Fujitsu plasmas went away, the Kuros went away, Runco did survive to get sold (but for a pretty low multiple of sales, even though Sam made out fine), B&O has closed up most of its retail outlets because they failed to move TVs, among other problems.

Look, OLED is going to get cheaper over time and also presumably improve in quality, Assuming it continues to compare favorably with the best LCDs and plasmas and that it eventually reaches a very small premium in price (and over time actually price parity), there will be plenty of them out there. But there's a lot of real estate between here and there.

There is no difference in HDMI cables. If you can see the picture without visible dropouts or sparklies, the cable is working at 100%. No other cable will display a better version of that picture. You're simply wrong if you think there is a better digital cable than one that is already working. (Oh, and plasma didn't die because of logistics problems, nor does OLED ship in big boxes because it comes from Korea.)
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post #295 of 862 Old 01-16-2012, 06:06 PM
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Originally Posted by CATYPH202 View Post

I was really impressed with the speed LG's flooded the market with their "Passive 3D" technology -no price premiums, waiting, "elits","Magnolias" and other BS -just straight to the masses! It's extremely attractive marketing move, but it requires a lot of courage, commitment and resources. And every report, so far, indicates the same bold move they will pull with OLED. I'm just gonna start saving money...

I'm with you. I believe WOLED (or an inorganic quantum dot design) will dominate the display field.

Many, many more people were impressed with LG's WOLED than people unimpressed. That must be for a reason, I would think.

I've read that the contrast ratio of their design may be 50 times greater than Local Dimming LCDs.

I came across (and lost the link for) a diagram from Kodak that showed that WOLED has far fewer elements in its design than LCD panels, which will become a manufacturing (and cost) advantage.

The following interview with Kodak also shows the inherent advantages of WOLED over non-stacked horizontal RGB, including the elimination of the costly and time consuming masking process, which favors cost effective mass production for LG's (Kodak's) design. It seems logical that given WOLED's adaptability to existing fabrication methods, that once in real production WOLED will have cost advantages over RGB OLED and LCD.

Lastly, the article shows the continuity of Kodak's technology to LG's production, and the interview clarifies as well the stacked design (assuming LG has not made subsequent changes.) From the article it appears there are 4 subpixels comprising each pixel...three white OLEDs, each with its own color filter, and one unfiltered (white). Well...you learn something everyday.

The interview is from 2008.

http://www.oled-info.com/kodak/kodak..._and_interview

"...For displays, Kodak has pioneered the W-RGBW pixel architecture. This consists of a WOLED with four sub-pixels per pixel. Three sub-pixels emit through red, green or blue color filters, and the fourth has no filter, leaving it white. This scheme delivers high efficiency, enables larger displays and significantly improves manufacturing yield for displays of all sizes. In addition, Kodak's proprietary set of color filters enables a previously unattainable level of color gamut, while maintaining high efficiency. Combining Kodak's pixel architecture, color filter, OLED materials and architecture advancements yields displays that have high power efficiency, greater than 100% NTSC x,y color gamut, and are estimated to have a half-life much greater than 100,000 hours..."
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Well, success of smart phones, crossover vehicles, heck, even "fashionable" jeans! , obviously suggesting "Doing everything well in one display is going to be something that OLEDs can offer" is VERY important for enormous amount of people. And they willing to pay premium for it.
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post #297 of 862 Old 01-16-2012, 07:03 PM
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Originally Posted by CATYPH202 View Post

Well, success of smart phones, crossover vehicles, heck, even "fashionable" jeans! , obviously suggesting "Doing everything well in one display is going to be something that OLEDs can offer" is VERY important for enormous amount of people. And they willing to pay premium for it.

And I would add that WOLED has the possibility of eventually being priced as a normally affordable item. All these new manufacturing methods change the cost paradigm that we've all accepted for OLED. I think OLED will go from being considered exotic for large displays to being considered the most practical technology.
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post #298 of 862 Old 01-16-2012, 08:05 PM
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...The ANSI contrast on the Sharp Elite is already so good that the OLEDs will have a tough time besting it by more than a small fraction (except off axis, where they ought to get a bit boost, but, again, we are talking >20 degrees off axis). Many TVs can already resolve 1080 lines on moving pictures. OLEDs cannot do this better. A $2500 Samsung plasma has "reference color". An OLED cannot do better.

I can definitely understand you comparing OLED TVs non-favorably to other top-of-the-line TVs out there (I haven't seen those TVs, but I'm perfectly content to take your word for it), but what confuses me is when you compare OLED TVs to some mythical combination of LCDs and plasmas.

It seems to me that hypothetical OLED TV comparisons should be between OLED TVs and a single TV of the future/present, not the "best of the rest" ("hypothetical" because, although the comparisons are real, the OLED TVs we're looking at were not mass-produced (which was a fair point you made in a different thread)).
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post #299 of 862 Old 01-16-2012, 10:59 PM
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Many, many more people were impressed with LG's WOLED than people unimpressed. That must be for a reason, I would think.

They were told to be? It looked pretty good? They didn't look very closely? I'd say it's a combination of those.

People are also impressed by David Copperfield and Lance Burton.
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I've read that the contrast ratio of their design may be 50 times greater than Local Dimming LCDs.

ANSI? First of all, no. Second of all, you'll be unable to tell even if that's true since it so completely exceeds the limits of your visual perception system.
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I came across (and lost the link for) a diagram from Kodak that showed that WOLED has far fewer elements in its design than LCD panels, which will become a manufacturing (and cost) advantage.

Even LG will tell you that will take at least 5 years.
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The following interview with Kodak also shows the inherent advantages of WOLED over non-stacked horizontal RGB, including the elimination of the costly and time consuming masking process, which favors cost effective mass production for LG's (Kodak's) design. It seems logical that given WOLED's adaptability to existing fabrication methods, that once in real production WOLED will have cost advantages over RGB OLED and LCD.

I've explained this many times over, but I'll try again...

LG's method should be cheaper than Samsung's. Except that it's entirely unproven. And it will rely on reaching large volumes. And LCD has large volumes and will continue to have large volumes and continue to get cheaper.

This isn't a static system. If LG produces tens of millions of units over the next 5 years, they might have the cheapest production. If they produce 100 million units, they probably will. However, LCD production will continue to get mastered and Samsung will improve their RGB OLED in ways that no one can currently foresee (or they'll abandon it). If Samsung sticks with it, they might outproduce LG, which will give Samsung more learning-curve effects, which might make their production cheaper.

People think they can look at the production method and the theoretical BOM and just determine that something will happen in the future. It doesn't work that way. That doesn't mean it won't work that way, but it does mean that other outcomes are possible. It's not a static model.
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Lastly, the article shows the continuity of Kodak's technology to LG's production, and the interview clarifies as well the stacked design (assuming LG has not made subsequent changes.) From the article it appears there are 4 subpixels comprising each pixel...three white OLEDs, each with its own color filter, and one unfiltered (white). Well...you learn something everyday.

I've posted this several times in the past few days, not sure how you missed all of those.

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Originally Posted by CATYPH202 View Post

Well, success of smart phones, crossover vehicles, heck, even "fashionable" jeans! , obviously suggesting "Doing everything well in one display is going to be something that OLEDs can offer" is VERY important for enormous amount of people. And they willing to pay premium for it.

I think you are making a point here that Sun is alluding to. If you're suggesting my TV should act as a smartphone, I disagree.... If not, read below.

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I can definitely understand you comparing OLED TVs non-favorably to other top-of-the-line TVs out there (I haven't seen those TVs, but I'm perfectly content to take your word for it), but what confuses me is when you compare OLED TVs to some mythical combination of LCDs and plasmas.

It seems to me that hypothetical OLED TV comparisons should be between OLED TVs and a single TV of the future/present, not the "best of the rest" ("hypothetical" because, although the comparisons are real, the OLED TVs we're looking at were not mass-produced (which was a fair point you made in a different thread)).[/quote]

Sure, let me clarify Sun. The best LCD on the market has the 15,000:1 ANSI contrast and the full-resolution motion handling (full 1080 lines resolved). That TV currently has a flawed color processing model due to some firmware error of some kind. But "reference color" is a solved problem. It's solved on a relatively inexpensive plasma.

Sharp should've solved it on that same LCD, but screwed up somewhere along the way. I believe the upgraded firmware will solve it. I certainly believe the 2012 models will solve it.

(That same 2012 display will also likely have 4k resolution, but that's another matter.)

In essence, the very best LCD -- while expensive -- is the benchmark against which the first OLEDs will be measured. The theoretical ability of OLED to bring reference picture quality to the masses won't really matter at first; what will matter is the comparison between the OLED and the best LCD and best plasma on the market. I'm reserving judgment on the best plasma until I see a real VT50 and it's measured with some test equipment (and a real E8000 for that matter)>

My point of combining the best of what's out there was merely "these features exist already". After seeing both the Samsung and LG, I have reason to wonder if they are going to actually even be great at everything in their first incarnation. But even if they are, they will be compared to the larger Sharp Elites and quite possibly to the much less expensive VT50 and E80000 plasmas.

In a year, the comparison will be vs. a 2013 Elite (or possibly a Sharp 955), a VT60, and an F8000 plasma. In 2 years, those models will evolve yet again. There is a fundamental problem in trying to best the LCDs and plasmas that didn't exist 5 years ago: It's now possible to have critical attributes fulfilled at the maximums of human vision and / or existing video standards.

Consider these two scenarios:

A) A new display is launched at the price of a mainstream LCD, say $1500 for a 55", that has the attributes of a Sharp Elite with reference color and 20% better contrast -- and maybe on some video we can actually see that contrast.

B) A new display is launched at a 20% premium to the 2013 Sharp Elite which has 20% better ANSI contrast (which, again, we can see sometimes), similarly accurate color, 1/4 the resolution, comes only in 55" while the Elite comes also in 70" and 80" in addition to the 60" (the model which is 20% cheaper than the new display). Thanks to the I-cubed tech on the Elite, the extra resolution makes at least some 1080 material look dramatically better and the very few 4k BluRays available on the newly announced quad-layer players due in 2013 look freaking amazing.

Here's the reality. Scenario (A) is pure fantasy. By the time the OLED is $1500, the mainstream LCD will be $1000 and will quite possibly be nearly as good as the Sharp Elite. Scenario (B)? Well, that pretty much reflects what's going to happen.

(A note about contrast ratio. The Sharp Elite already has ANSI contrast that measures higher than most experts believe the eye can actually perceive. This source http://www.presentationtek.com/2006/...ets-uncovered/ among others notes that simultaneous contrast is limited to between 400:1 and 10,000:1 typically dependent on conditions. The ratio only falls with increases in ambient light!

This is one reason why the OLED demos at CES can only be so eye popping. Shown in a lit room, no TV is going to be especially more contrasty than the best TVs already on the market. Ironically, things like reflectivity and glare resistance are going to matter more than ANSI contrast -- assuming you can exceed the ANSI threshold of humans -- and on that score the OLED prototypes were awful. The screens shown were like mirrors!

Now, there are many black-level fans at AVS and with good reason. In a a dark room and over time, the human eye can perceive something on the order of 10 million to 1 contrast! That's sequential contrast and basically isn't especially relevant on a TV because the high end of that curve will generally be unpleasantly bright, especially in a darkened room. But the low end of the curve -- black level -- is something a lot of us have come to value. Again, the Sharp Elite and Sony HX929 are already more or less "there" -- as was the last of the vaunted Pioneer Kuro models. The OLEDs will do well here. On paper, they might even set records. Whether they actually deliver any more usable contrast than a Sharp Elite while you are watching video is another matter.

We've already established they pretty much can't on the ANSI or simultaneous side. And on the on/off or sequential side, even if you set your display well above ISF or THX standards for brightness, at most you'll be looking at a tiny reduction in absolute darkness over the best LCDs already out. Now, they may be able to deliver this over a broader viewing angle and that's worth something. But the word improvement comes mind not the word revolution.)

There is no difference in HDMI cables. If you can see the picture without visible dropouts or sparklies, the cable is working at 100%. No other cable will display a better version of that picture. You're simply wrong if you think there is a better digital cable than one that is already working. (Oh, and plasma didn't die because of logistics problems, nor does OLED ship in big boxes because it comes from Korea.)
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post #300 of 862 Old 01-16-2012, 11:13 PM
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Bah. I don't know why this becoming a sharp elite vs OLED thread.

Not a single person here owns this OLED display. Most don't even own the elite.

Now I've never personally seen an OLED display in anything other then a phone. But if it's ANYTHING like the phones. Everything will become obsolete. Elites won't have anything on OLED tech. Hell. Nothing will.

It's really to bad they won't become the standard for a few years. Would be nice to be able to go out and upgrade all my pc monitors to a nice OLED screen for under $200. But I'll wait!
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