LG Official Announces 55" OLED for CES- - Page 2 - AVS Forum
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post #31 of 862 Old 12-27-2011, 02:20 PM
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Originally Posted by JukeBox360 View Post

WOW. So that would mean crazy display. Amazing contrast on colors. No random light bleeding into another light source. This I got to see. If it is coming out. Expect me to purchase it. (Givin decent price range of 3k ish. But I imagine it will be a whole lot more then that. )

Yes, that's why OLED is so exciting. I suspect the real world will interfere, and ANSI contrast won't be perfect, but it should drastically exceed any display that has ever come before it.

This assumes that the OLED display *is* capable of turning the pixels off. As mentioned before, Sony's 25" broadcast monitor appears to do that (or so I've read) but there are other OLED displays currently on the market that do not.

There are not HT-class OLED displays on the market yet though, so we really don't know how they will perform. It's assumed that they will turn subpixels off entirely with black though.
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post #32 of 862 Old 12-27-2011, 02:25 PM
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Originally Posted by Chronoptimist View Post

Yes, that's why OLED is so exciting. I suspect the real world will interfere, and ANSI contrast won't be perfect, but it should drastically exceed any display that has ever come before it.

This assumes that the OLED display *is* capable of turning the pixels off. As mentioned before, Sony's 25" broadcast monitor appears to do that (or so I've read) but there are other OLED displays currently on the market that do not.

There are not HT-class OLED displays on the market yet though, so we really don't know how they will perform. It's assumed that they will turn subpixels off entirely with black though.

Well you would think turning them off is exactly what they would do. Otherwise I don't really see a point in them taking so ling to mass produce it. Sure, it would be more energy effective. But What we want is a better picture display. From what I've just learned. OLED is the key to this. I really hope to see these in stores 2012. I hope even more for a decent price. I still imagine they plan to release a 60 inch for AT LEAST 6K. IMO to much.
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post #33 of 862 Old 12-27-2011, 03:58 PM
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So what's this ultra definition they're speaking of for this 55inch oled? Does that mean it'll be higher than 1080p?
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post #34 of 862 Old 12-27-2011, 03:59 PM
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Doubt it. But Maybe?
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post #35 of 862 Old 12-27-2011, 04:11 PM
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There's going to be 1080p resolution, not more -- at least not for the first few years.

As for contrast, there's going to be bleed. An illuminated pixel is not going to magically not affect adjacent pixels. That said, the OLEDs should have record ANSI contrast.

As for $3k pricing... no time soon. But someday.

There is no difference in HDMI cables. If you can see the picture without visible dropouts or sparklies, the cable is working at 100%. No other cable will display a better version of that picture. You're simply wrong if you think there is a better digital cable than one that is already working. (Oh, and plasma didn't die because of logistics problems, nor does OLED ship in big boxes because it comes from Korea.)
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post #36 of 862 Old 12-27-2011, 08:24 PM
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Originally Posted by JukeBox360 View Post

Well you would think turning them off is exactly what they would do. Otherwise I don't really see a point in them taking so ling to mass produce it. Sure, it would be more energy effective. But What we want is a better picture display. From what I've just learned. OLED is the key to this. I really hope to see these in stores 2012. I hope even more for a decent price. I still imagine they plan to release a 60 inch for AT LEAST 6K. IMO to much.

OLEDs also have issues with lifespan (blue OLEDs have a shorter life span) that going to all white with a color filter helps to avoid. Otherwise the blues would age faster than the rest of the sub pixels.

I'd also expect a price closer to $8k or up for any 55" set. The only real competition is the 60" and 70" Elites and I believe the 60" is $5500 or $6500 and not an OLED. They would have the market virtually to themselves and could price them high enough to make up the R&D costs before everyone else has them and the margins fall. I guess I will see for myself in 2 weeks.

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post #37 of 862 Old 12-27-2011, 11:02 PM
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I'd also expect a price closer to $8k or up for any 55" set. The only real competition is the 60" and 70" Elites and I believe the 60" is $5500 or $6500 and not an OLED. They would have the market virtually to themselves and could price them high enough to make up the R&D costs before everyone else has them and the margins fall. I guess I will see for myself in 2 weeks.

Even with the market to themselves, they won't "make up R&D costs". They would be exceptionally fortunate to sell 10,000 units worldwide at $8000. Even if the speculation is correct that they'll build a line within an LCD plant, there capital costs alone will be many multiples of that.

Whatever the engineering cost, with relatively low yields and unexceptional margins even at $8000, the profits would be nice, I'm sure... but let's not pretend they will come close to making up their investment. They'll have to move many more units at much lower prices to do that.

There is no difference in HDMI cables. If you can see the picture without visible dropouts or sparklies, the cable is working at 100%. No other cable will display a better version of that picture. You're simply wrong if you think there is a better digital cable than one that is already working. (Oh, and plasma didn't die because of logistics problems, nor does OLED ship in big boxes because it comes from Korea.)
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post #38 of 862 Old 12-28-2011, 04:41 AM
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Does anyone remember what oled was being used on the last LG 31", white or RGB?

I saw that at IFA 2010 and it had the best picture I've ever seen.
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post #39 of 862 Old 12-28-2011, 08:36 AM
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Originally Posted by rogo View Post

Even with the market to themselves, they won't "make up R&D costs". They would be exceptionally fortunate to sell 10,000 units worldwide at $8000. Even if the speculation is correct that they'll build a line within an LCD plant, there capital costs alone will be many multiples of that.

Whatever the engineering cost, with relatively low yields and unexceptional margins even at $8000, the profits would be nice, I'm sure... but let's not pretend they will come close to making up their investment. They'll have to move many more units at much lower prices to do that.

Oh, they won't make it all up, but they'll be one of two companies (Samsung potentially) that can actually sell the technology, and they're going to price it accordingly. They will want it to be expensive, dealers will want it to be expensive (since the margin on TVs is virtually nothing now), and there is really no one to compete with. Who knows how many they will sell a year, but I'm sure it will be priced so they have no chance of losing money on each sale.

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post #40 of 862 Old 12-28-2011, 08:44 AM
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Originally Posted by Smackrabbit View Post

Oh, they won't make it all up, but they'll be one of two companies (Samsung potentially) that can actually sell the technology, and they're going to price it accordingly. They will want it to be expensive, dealers will want it to be expensive (since the margin on TVs is virtually nothing now), and there is really no one to compete with. Who knows how many they will sell a year, but I'm sure it will be priced so they have no chance of losing money on each sale.

I also believe there's a real, sellable OLED coming, Chris. What's your sense regarding 4K panels?
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post #41 of 862 Old 12-28-2011, 09:22 AM
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LG is on the cusp of establishing themselves as a serious OLED player for the years to come. Although they sort of did that by buying the Kodak oled patents years ago. Since this will be a high-end TV they should have a 180hz mode (without frame interpolation so no soap opera effect) for a true 6.2ms hold time. Market it as a special mode for fast moving sports like ice hockey and football. Also it needs low latency for video game players.
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post #42 of 862 Old 12-28-2011, 10:15 AM
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Originally Posted by Chronoptimist View Post


Do you have a source for this? I'd be quite interested in seeing the data, and how it was measured. (I haven't actually measured my own display's ANSI contrast so I'd like to see how it compares)

This was measured with a Klein K-10 meter stuck onto the screen of a Sharp Elite at Robert's Flatpanel shootout this past October.

The Sharp was over 15,000:1 ANSI, while the Sony 929 was around 2700:1 ANSI. Panasonic's 65VT30 hit around 6700:1

The ANSI measurements would be lower in the real world, measured away from the screen, as Kevin Miller initially recorded the Sharp Elite at 555:1 with the ANSI test

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post #43 of 862 Old 12-28-2011, 11:31 AM
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....., while the Sony 929 was around 2700:1 ANSI.

XBR HX929 ANSI (contrast ratio) 2179:1 4279:1
http://www.cnet.com/8705-4_1-0.html?...ag=mncol;tback
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post #44 of 862 Old 12-28-2011, 12:28 PM
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XBR HX929 ANSI (contrast ratio) 2179:1 4279:1
http://www.cnet.com/8705-4_1-0.html?...ag=mncol;tback

Yeah, you can add to your mileage. But this shows how much damage was made to the HX929 plus that the 65" Sony flagship was not used. I wonder also how Elite could get so much better contrast when it is known they never switch off the zones completely. I suppose the measurement was set up in some way.

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post #45 of 862 Old 12-28-2011, 12:51 PM
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Originally Posted by irkuck View Post

Yeah, you can add to your mileage. But this shows how much damage was made to the HX929 plus that the 65" Sony flagship was not used. I wonder also how Elite could get so much better contrast when it is known they never switch off the zones completely. I suppose the measurement was set up in some way.

Probably because the screen is larger, there are a lot more dimming zones, and the UV2A panel the Elite uses is likely higher contrast than whatever the 929 is using. (S-PVA?)
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post #46 of 862 Old 12-28-2011, 06:11 PM
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Originally Posted by JukeBox360 View Post

WOW. So that would mean crazy display. Amazing contrast on colors. No random light bleeding into another light source. This I got to see. If it is coming out. Expect me to purchase it. (Givin decent price range of 3k ish. But I imagine it will be a whole lot more then that. )

It's called a Plasma

Nonetheless why I'm so optimistic on OLED is because it has the properties and structure of both plasma and TFT LCD, with inherent tech constraints that are minimal or IMHO can be overcome.

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Originally Posted by Wilt View Post

Does anyone remember what oled was being used on the last LG 31", white or RGB?

I saw that at IFA 2010 and it had the best picture I've ever seen.

I think the prototype is RGB. 31" is also around the size of their 3.5G fab. Which is why they can't do 55" RGB but rather combine the panels for 55" WOLED.

Sammy is at a crossroad whether to make superior but much more expensive RGB OLED which has to compete with WOLED. Their structural advantage is LG doesn't have capacity even if 55" sales is good and they want to ramp.
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post #47 of 862 Old 12-28-2011, 08:44 PM
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Originally Posted by Chronoptimist View Post

No, this is an OLED display that uses white OLEDs as the light source rather than RGB ones for subpixels. The light from each white subpixel shines through a red, green or blue colour filter to create colour.

This approach means that all subpixels age at the same rate

There is one flaw in this argument. While they may all age at the same rate, it does not mean that they will maintain the same color temperature as they age. White LEDs are nothing more than blue LEDs with a phosphor coating to fill in the green and red parts of the spectrum. So you end up with two materials which age at different rates, with filters in front of them selecting the one of two aging materials.

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post #48 of 862 Old 12-29-2011, 01:30 AM
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I've been thinking(Noooooo...ooooh!).

I'm I right in assuming that it is very difficult to obtain local dimming with a Oled that have this technology? It seems impossible to individually control över two million Oled-pixels.

So we will not see absolute blacks on this type of OLED, right?
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post #49 of 862 Old 12-29-2011, 05:06 AM
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It's actually the exact opposite.
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post #50 of 862 Old 12-29-2011, 08:21 AM
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It's actually the exact opposite.

Right you are. It's the most "local" dimming of all (if indeed we should use that term at all here). It's individual pixel dimming.
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post #51 of 862 Old 12-29-2011, 09:00 AM
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I'm confused by their White OLED technology. From the press release:

"Additionally, LG Display uses White OLED (WOLED). WOLED vertically accumulates red, green, and blue diodes."

Does each WOLED subpixel consist of a stacked red, green and blue OLED, like this?



And if so, does the subpixel additionally consist of a red, green or blue filter? It seems horribly inefficient to first add red, green and blue light and subsequently filter out 2 of the 3 colors.
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post #52 of 862 Old 12-29-2011, 10:12 AM
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According to this older article (from March 2011), LG does have real production capacity for its WOLED panels:

http://www.oled-info.com/lgs-8-gen-l...-true-oled-tvs

As far as PQ with WOLED compared to RGB OLED, time will tell.

From what I understand the red OLED presents the biggest hurdle for RGB OLED in terms of aging characteristics.
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post #53 of 862 Old 12-29-2011, 11:47 AM
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Originally Posted by taichi4 View Post

According to this older article (from March 2011), LG does have real production capacity for its WOLED panels:

http://www.oled-info.com/lgs-8-gen-l...-true-oled-tvs

As far as PQ with WOLED compared to RGB OLED, time will tell.

From what I understand the red OLED presents the biggest hurdle for RGB OLED in terms of aging characteristics.

Your "source" is an article from March that claims:

(1) This facility is built already. It isn't.
(2) This facility has the capacity to build tens of thousands of 55" displays. It doesn't.
(3) That LG will later build 31" displays, which is wholly illogical given the immeasurable challenge selling premium displays in that market (unless they solely target the PC/visualization market at that size).

Let's not take any of the OLED fanboy sites seriously. They are hype sites, ok?

There is no difference in HDMI cables. If you can see the picture without visible dropouts or sparklies, the cable is working at 100%. No other cable will display a better version of that picture. You're simply wrong if you think there is a better digital cable than one that is already working. (Oh, and plasma didn't die because of logistics problems, nor does OLED ship in big boxes because it comes from Korea.)
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post #54 of 862 Old 12-29-2011, 12:55 PM
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Originally Posted by rogo View Post

Your "source" is an article from March that claims:

(1) This facility is built already. It isn't.
(2) This facility has the capacity to build tens of thousands of 55" displays. It doesn't.
(3) That LG will later build 31" displays, which is wholly illogical given the immeasurable challenge selling premium displays in that market (unless they solely target the PC/visualization market at that size).

Let's not take any of the OLED fanboy sites seriously. They are hype sites, ok?

Your clarification is useful. I referred to the article because I thought it useful as well. However there us no reason to take a condescending or confrontational tone about any of this. I am not a "fanboy".

OK?
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post #55 of 862 Old 12-29-2011, 03:16 PM
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Your clarification is useful. I referred to the article because I thought it useful as well. However there us no reason to take a condescending or confrontational tone about any of this. I am not a "fanboy".

OK?

Sorry, I didn't intend to call you a fanboy. If that came across, it was a guilt-by-association implication that I was not intending.

Those OLED sites are fanboy sites, though. I read some "green tech" sites that are also fanboy sites. They can't separate press releases and fake "developments" from actual news because they love the tech so much.

Generally, if a web site has OLED in its URL, it is not likely going to do an objective job of reporting on OLED because all of its pageviews rely on people being excited about whatever it's reporting. Hence my quite intentional characterization of said sites as fanboy sites. I read a bunch of Apple and Android sites that are similarly guilty. Sure, some are good enough to be objective, but very, very few.

There is no difference in HDMI cables. If you can see the picture without visible dropouts or sparklies, the cable is working at 100%. No other cable will display a better version of that picture. You're simply wrong if you think there is a better digital cable than one that is already working. (Oh, and plasma didn't die because of logistics problems, nor does OLED ship in big boxes because it comes from Korea.)
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post #56 of 862 Old 12-29-2011, 07:37 PM
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Sorry, I didn't intend to call you a fanboy. If that came across, it was a guilt-by-association implication that I was not intending.

Those OLED sites are fanboy sites, though. I read some "green tech" sites that are also fanboy sites. They can't separate press releases and fake "developments" from actual news because they love the tech so much.

Generally, if a web site has OLED in its URL, it is not likely going to do an objective job of reporting on OLED because all of its pageviews rely on people being excited about whatever it's reporting. Hence my quite intentional characterization of said sites as fanboy sites. I read a bunch of Apple and Android sites that are similarly guilty. Sure, some are good enough to be objective, but very, very few.

As I said, your clarification was useful. The specificity of that article was what caught my attention. So I guess it represents an elaborate form of vaportalk.

It's very true that the Internet can easily become a spurious source of information.

Still, I hope for interesting things from CES.
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post #57 of 862 Old 12-29-2011, 10:54 PM
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Still, I hope for interesting things from CES.

We are in violent agreement there.

There is no difference in HDMI cables. If you can see the picture without visible dropouts or sparklies, the cable is working at 100%. No other cable will display a better version of that picture. You're simply wrong if you think there is a better digital cable than one that is already working. (Oh, and plasma didn't die because of logistics problems, nor does OLED ship in big boxes because it comes from Korea.)
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post #58 of 862 Old 01-01-2012, 04:04 PM
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The pics for the TV defintely look very sexy. A 55" TV weighing only 17 pound is crazy. But something tells me that it'll cost as much as a Prius and I won't be able to afford it.
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post #59 of 862 Old 01-01-2012, 05:16 PM
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The pics for the TV defintely look very sexy. A 55" TV weighing only 17 pound is crazy. But something tells me that it'll cost as much as a Prius and I won't be able to afford it.

I'll bet it's not near the price of a Prius. I'll bet it will be closer to the price of a 70 inch Elite.
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post #60 of 862 Old 01-01-2012, 08:52 PM
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LG sure are going into a lot of specific details about the 55 inch WOLED Display, if it is only going to be vaporware, as some as predicting.

http://www.engadget.com/2012/01/01/l...colors-at-ces/


"WORLD'S LARGEST OLED TV FROM LG OFFERS MORE REALISTIC COLORS, BRIGHTER PICTURE, FASTER SPEED
LG Unveils Much Anticipated 55-inch OLED TV for First Time at CES 2012

SEOUL, Jan. 2, 2012 - LG Electronics (LG) will present the future of TV technology at the Consumer Electronics Show (CES) in Las Vegas with the unveiling of the world's largest OLED TV with a display size of 55 inches. By incorporating the company's 4-Color Pixels and Color Refiner features with LG Display's advanced OLED (organic light-emitting diode) panels, LG OLED TV generates the most natural colors of any TV set at a much lower price point than could have been achieved using the standard manufacturing process.

"Working closely with LG Display, we have a product which not only delivers on all the advantages of OLED over LCD but at a significantly lower cost than what could be achieved using existing OLED manufacturing technologies," said Havis Kwon, President and CEO of LG Electronics Home Entertainment Company. "OLED is clearly the future of home TV entertainment and LG is very focused on making this exciting technology as easy as possible for consumers to embrace."

What sets LG's TV picture apart from other OLED TVs is 4-Color Pixels and Color Refiner which work together to generate natural and accurate colors that are sharp and consistent. The 4-Color Pixels feature allows for more accurate color depiction by using a set of four colors (red, green blue and white) in comparison to the RGB setup used by other OLED TV manufacturers. Color Refiner ensures consistency in colors from a wider viewing angle via an LG algorithm which improves and refines hues and tones. This is in contrast to other OLED TVs which often exhibit drastic changes in hues from different viewing angles and abnormal color gamut.

Boasting an infinite contrast ratio, LG's OLED TV exhibits vivid colors and the smallest details regardless of the overall luminance of the on-screen image. In turn, colors and details throughout an entire image are preserved with utmost clarity and sharpness, even when displaying scenes with dark lighting. Such color capabilities are technically impossible with LED and LCD display panels. And at 1,000 times faster than LED/LCD displays, LG's OLED TV shows crystal clear motion without any blurring or bleeding."
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