LG Official Announces 55" OLED for CES- - Page 4 - AVS Forum
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post #91 of 862 Old 01-03-2012, 01:46 PM
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Originally Posted by sytech View Post

I'm taking $5 bets from anyone who can photograph a LG branded boxed retail unit for sale, in the stores, before the end of 2012.
Like I said, I have serious doubts LG can deliver and if Apple chooses it as the display for the next years AppleTV, I would guess all units they could make in the beginning would go to them.

lol, no.

why would they give Apple their whole supply when they could sell em themselves to all the videophiles?
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post #92 of 862 Old 01-03-2012, 01:56 PM
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Originally Posted by Valnar View Post

Am I the only person that does NOT want a damn TV this thin?...or light?

If nothing else, how good can the audio be with speakers constructed to be that thin?...and light?

Yes, I am with you on that! That was the first thing I noticed was how thin that tv was and I was like heck to the no! Way too thin and would not care for something THAT thin. Shipping that tv will be a nightmare.
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post #93 of 862 Old 01-03-2012, 02:15 PM
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Originally Posted by MaXPL View Post

lol, no.

why would they give Apple their whole supply when they could sell em themselves to all the videophiles?

If Apple, or anyone else, went to them and guaranteed to buy out their run for a year, or two years, LG or almost anyone would jump on it. Guaranteed sales, the risk on extra inventory is now on someone else, and you're still going to clear a healthy profit on it. Perhaps not as high as if you made the sold the display yourself, but you also don't have to deal with distribution, shipping, returns, etc...

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post #94 of 862 Old 01-03-2012, 02:43 PM
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Originally Posted by Smackrabbit View Post

If Apple, or anyone else, went to them and guaranteed to buy out their run for a year, or two years, LG or almost anyone would jump on it. Guaranteed sales, the risk on extra inventory is now on someone else, and you're still going to clear a healthy profit on it. Perhaps not as high as if you made the sold the display yourself, but you also don't have to deal with distribution, shipping, returns, etc...

There wont be nearly enough capacity to allow Apple to sell an OLED television in 2012....or likely 2013 either.

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post #95 of 862 Old 01-03-2012, 02:57 PM
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Okay, I admit I am a Panasonic fanboy, in the sense that Panny has been my brand of choice for TVs for many years and always with great satisfaction the result. I know Panny has stuck with plasma, as I probably will for many years to come, but does anyone (Rogo?) know what display tech they have in mind beyond plasma, assuming they are forsee that plasma has practical limits, and assuming it is NOT OLED? Or is it?

"The truth is out there!"
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post #96 of 862 Old 01-03-2012, 03:15 PM
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Originally Posted by Valnar View Post

Am I the only person that does NOT want a damn TV this thin?...or light?

If nothing else, how good can the audio be with speakers constructed to be that thin?...and light?

if you're buying a premium TV and using the integrated speakers, you're doing it wrong
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post #97 of 862 Old 01-03-2012, 03:21 PM
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Panasonic has been looking at OLED but how much of a commitment they have is an open question. My guess is that everybody in the industry is at least ramping up some R&D spending on OLED's just in case SMD and LG actually manage to gain some traction.

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post #98 of 862 Old 01-03-2012, 04:41 PM
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Originally Posted by Smackrabbit View Post

My issue with the white sub pixel is wondering how it deals with calibrating the white point. Unless the white is exactly D65 you are going to need to add in some combination of red, green and blue to get white correct, but will that be easier or harder than without the white pixel?

The extra white subpixel does indeed complicate these matters considerably. I hope (and assume) they get this right.

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The main benefit I see is added brightness from 33% more pixels with a white screen but with OLED I'd think your contrast ratio is high enough already. And this would need a panel with more pixels which would reduce yields and increase costs for an unknown benefit.

I assume the white subpixel adds 100% additional brightness for a white screen, because all RGB light passes. The main benefit is probably that it increases the lifetime at a given brightness.
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post #99 of 862 Old 01-03-2012, 04:45 PM
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Originally Posted by Ryan711 View Post

if you're buying a premium TV and using the integrated speakers, you're doing it wrong

well said.

now we just need to hope its got either wireless connectivity, or a separate box with a thin cable. cant mount it flush if there are cables sticking out, and some cables are probably thicker that the TV. Even with a wall mount you would need something recessed to take advantage of it. it might look sleek but it will make your wall mount job look terrible.
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post #100 of 862 Old 01-03-2012, 04:59 PM
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Originally Posted by dsmith901 View Post

Okay, I admit I am a Panasonic fanboy, in the sense that Panny has been my brand of choice for TVs for many years and always with great satisfaction the result. I know Panny has stuck with plasma, as I probably will for many years to come, but does anyone (Rogo?) know what display tech they have in mind beyond plasma, assuming they are forsee that plasma has practical limits, and assuming it is NOT OLED? Or is it?

Panasonic is already beginning test production on OLED. They, like Samsung and LG, see it as the future. They are also planning on ramping up LCD to larger sizes in the meantime.

Fact is, if the production problems can be worked out, OLED will slowly begin to capture the high end and work its way down. The notion that the production problems are gone and this is a fait accompli is something I disagree with. But LG has taken a clever end around to avoid one of the major production problems. And Samsung is working on various tricks including brute force -- we'll do it over and over until we get it right doing it the way the way we want to -- and hasn't ruled out an LG-like method (although patents may need to be worked around).

There is no difference in HDMI cables. If you can see the picture without visible dropouts or sparklies, the cable is working at 100%. No other cable will display a better version of that picture. You're simply wrong if you think there is a better digital cable than one that is already working. (Oh, and plasma didn't die because of logistics problems, nor does OLED ship in big boxes because it comes from Korea.)
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post #101 of 862 Old 01-03-2012, 05:05 PM
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Originally Posted by Smackrabbit View Post

My issue with the white sub pixel is wondering how it deals with calibrating the white point. Unless the white is exactly D65 you are going to need to add in some combination of red, green and blue to get white correct, but will that be easier or harder than without the white pixel? The main benefit I see is added brightness from 33% more pixels with a white screen but with OLED I'd think your contrast ratio is high enough already. And this would need a panel with more pixels which would reduce yields and increase costs for an unknown benefit.

+1 there is a reason why D65 is achieved through panel drivers and color mapping. Unless their RGB filter are manufactured so precisely that they combine and produce D65 white. If they achieve D65 through ONLY their white pixel, I would question their color accuracy.

But then again most people prefer wider gamut with bluish or glaring white than accurate color. Sammy may just be too perfectionist addressing a problem with RGB that few people care, like their 3D active solution.
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post #102 of 862 Old 01-03-2012, 05:26 PM
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Originally Posted by rogo View Post

(although patents may need to be worked around).

That hasn't stopped them before, wouldn't be surprised if they completely ripoff the LG OLED design.

"If you weren't such an ignorant troll, you'd be adorable" -rogo
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post #103 of 862 Old 01-03-2012, 05:54 PM
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I'm pretty sure there is no real competition between them. They probably as independent of each other as Hyundai and Kia...
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post #104 of 862 Old 01-03-2012, 06:33 PM
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Originally Posted by Valnar View Post

Am I the only person that does NOT want a damn TV this thin?...or light?

If nothing else, how good can the audio be with speakers constructed to be that thin?...and light?

We are well past the point where audio quality matters on flat panels, it's been terrible for years. Has it, or TV audio in general, ever been good?

I'd much rather they just removed the speakers entirely. It's a complete waste of money to buy a display of this quality and then use the TV's speakers.

And there are a few technologies out there which could potentially produce good sound from very flat speakers. Electrostatic and planar magnetic speakers can be very thin, though I don't know what kind of size they would need to be. Philips have been using NXT's distributed mode loudspeakers in their TVs for years. The "hypersonic" (ultrasonic?) speaker demos all seem to be rather thin. (though not 4mm)

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Originally Posted by JSteel View Post

Yes, I am with you on that! That was the first thing I noticed was how thin that tv was and I was like heck to the no! Way too thin and would not care for something THAT thin. Shipping that tv will be a nightmare.

A nightmare? The thinner & lighter the display is, the easier it will be to ship.

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Originally Posted by dsmith901 View Post

Okay, I admit I am a Panasonic fanboy, in the sense that Panny has been my brand of choice for TVs for many years and always with great satisfaction the result. I know Panny has stuck with plasma, as I probably will for many years to come, but does anyone (Rogo?) know what display tech they have in mind beyond plasma, assuming they are forsee that plasma has practical limits, and assuming it is NOT OLED? Or is it?

It will be interesting to see what they have up their sleeves:

http://panasonic.net/avc/viera/exhib...own/index.html

I wonder if they will start making use of those Kuro patents they bought?

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Originally Posted by gmarceau View Post

That hasn't stopped them before, wouldn't be surprised if they completely ripoff the LG OLED design.

I doubt LG has a patent on using an RGBW design. Sony already produces RGBW LCDs. http://www.sony.net/SonyInfo/News/Press/201108/11-086E/
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post #105 of 862 Old 01-03-2012, 06:40 PM
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I'm pretty sure there is no real competition between them. They probably as independent of each other as Hyundai and Kia...

Hyundai owns Kia... literally. But neither Sammy or LG wants to be OWNED

They are intense competitors. Suppliers usually can only choose to supply 1, though there are few exceptions.
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post #106 of 862 Old 01-03-2012, 06:53 PM
 
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^Ah, didn't know Hyundai owned Kia...reminds me of the Lexus/Toyota and Honda/Acura relationships.

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Originally Posted by Chronoptimist View Post

We are well past the point where audio quality matters on flat panels, it's been terrible for years. Has it, or TV audio in general, ever been good?

The Kuro speakers (2008) were halfway decent, so 4 years at most.
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post #107 of 862 Old 01-03-2012, 07:18 PM
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Originally Posted by vinnie97 View Post

The Kuro speakers (2008) were halfway decent, so 4 years at most.

If "halfway decent" sound is acceptable, why not go with a "halfway decent" picture and buy a cheap Edge LED screen too?

Of all the flat panel speakers I've heard, Sharp's older LCDs were probably best, where they were about twice the size of most other speakers, and the speaker box actually stuck out an inch or two behind the TVand this was before TVs were millimetres thin. (I still think those older Sharps were some of the best designed TVs around) I wouldn't consider it remotely acceptable sound for watching films though, and I'm not someone that thinks 5.1 sound is required for a good film experience. In fact I'd much rather spend that money on a good pair of stereo speakers and a subwoofer, than spread that cash out over five or seven lower quality speakers.
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post #108 of 862 Old 01-03-2012, 07:37 PM
 
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I don't even have the factory speakers connected to my Kuro, I am just trying to offset the "terrible sound" remark with an anecdote at the very least. I am fanatical for 5.1 sound actually, as that provides more immersion than one can typically get, even from an audiophile-rated L/R/subwoofer.
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post #109 of 862 Old 01-03-2012, 08:30 PM
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Originally Posted by slacker711 View Post

There wont be nearly enough capacity to allow Apple to sell an OLED television in 2012....or likely 2013 either.

Agreed, but Chris is certainly right. If Apple pre-bought x displays from LG and x = 100% of production, there'd be no LG-branded product for a while.

There is no difference in HDMI cables. If you can see the picture without visible dropouts or sparklies, the cable is working at 100%. No other cable will display a better version of that picture. You're simply wrong if you think there is a better digital cable than one that is already working. (Oh, and plasma didn't die because of logistics problems, nor does OLED ship in big boxes because it comes from Korea.)
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post #110 of 862 Old 01-03-2012, 09:24 PM
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Originally Posted by MaXPL View Post

lol, no.

why would they give Apple their whole supply when they could sell em themselves to all the videophiles?

I live in the land of Apple, the Bay Area, and there was a news blurb the other day and not sure where they got their info but it was quoted that an Apple TV was coming at the end of the year and the size would be 32 to 37 inches.

That is far from 55 but somehow this makes sense to me. I see Apple delivering the iTV as they called it in smaller sizes to begin. They did not mention technology to be used.

All speculation I'm sure like anything else but found the size comment interesting.

Edit: I see some of my tech geek friends thinking this size is perfect for a smart iTV. It's purpose is not home theater(yet) but to set-up your entire home with smart tv's. In the kitchen all bedrooms out of the way. I'm running late for work and talk to my wife thru the iTV from the bedroom/bathroom to her in the kitchen as I rush."honey can you pour me a cup of java" while I get ready? Split screen CNN as I video-chat with my sister in Michigan. Room to room video communication and voice activated. Everything connected. I bet Apple's intent is beyond 5.1 at first and connecting your life room to room and point to point. All voice activated. This does not call for a 55 inch display. That could be later.

Rick

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post #111 of 862 Old 01-03-2012, 09:26 PM
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Let's assume all previous available info -correct (about new OLED technology's production cost cheaper than LCD) and with new WOLED approach (resolving "Blue pixel" short lifespan issue) and if LG have capacities to produce 55" OLEDs in volumes (as was info in some reports) they can limit production by overpricing TV's, wait for japanese to catchup and loose momentum. -Or they can take great example from Sharp (as it did with 70-80" LCD's market) and leapfrog ahead of competitors from beginning. Market momentum based on - "Full HD", "3D" and "paper-thin-with-no-bezel" to move in volumes most popular 52-55" sizes, for more than $1500,- is running thin. Quad HD -way to expensive for switching whole broadcasting/media-content industry with no real benefit for consumer in real-life display sizes... So they pulled WOLED ace from the sleeve as a "Next big thing". Just in time.
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post #112 of 862 Old 01-03-2012, 09:33 PM
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Originally Posted by CATYPH202 View Post

... Or they can take example from Sharp (as it did with 70-80" LCD's) and destroy any competition from beginning. Market momentum based on - "Full HD", "3D" and "paper-thin-with-no-bezel" to move in volumes most popular 52-55" size for more than $1500 is running thin. Quad HD -way to expensive for switching whole broadcasting/media-content industry with no real benefit for consumer in real-life display sizes... So they pulled WOLED ace from the sleeve as a "Next big thing". Just in time.

I think that's good analysis. I think the disincentive for LG to plow their production to Apple is that they have a chance to build up their own brand dramatically....and that's worth a lot down the road...more than cash for allowing Apple to become dominant in OLED.
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post #113 of 862 Old 01-04-2012, 04:10 AM
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Originally Posted by sytech View Post

More vaporware from LG and Samsung. Any sets that LG could actually produce when go to Apple for the insanely expensive AppleTV in early 2013.
By that time Sharp will be killing them with reasonably priced 70-90" 4K panels. Would people even consider a 55" display big enough for a "home theater" anymore? What people forget when they look to these new technologies is while they are waiting for them to mature and costs to drop, the current technology will make advances also. Despite the better picture does a $6,000 55" OLED stand a chance against a $1500 70" 4K Sharp LCD?

Too much guessing. Wait until you actually see them and then you'll know.
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post #114 of 862 Old 01-04-2012, 04:19 AM
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Originally Posted by Smackrabbit View Post

If Apple, or anyone else, went to them and guaranteed to buy out their run for a year, or two years, LG or almost anyone would jump on it. Guaranteed sales, the risk on extra inventory is now on someone else, and you're still going to clear a healthy profit on it. Perhaps not as high as if you made the sold the display yourself, but you also don't have to deal with distribution, shipping, returns, etc...

And remember that Apple can easily pay cash up front.
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post #115 of 862 Old 01-04-2012, 04:20 AM
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Originally Posted by dsmith901 View Post

Okay, I admit I am a Panasonic fanboy, in the sense that Panny has been my brand of choice for TVs for many years and always with great satisfaction the result. I know Panny has stuck with plasma, as I probably will for many years to come, but does anyone (Rogo?) know what display tech they have in mind beyond plasma, assuming they are forsee that plasma has practical limits, and assuming it is NOT OLED? Or is it?

According to hdguru.com, Panasonic is presently converting one of their LCD plants to OLED.
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post #116 of 862 Old 01-04-2012, 01:55 PM
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Originally Posted by CATYPH202 View Post

Let's assume all previous available info -correct (about new OLED technology's production cost cheaper than LCD) and with new WOLED approach (resolving "Blue pixel" short lifespan issue) and if LG have capacities to produce 55" OLEDs in volumes (as was info in some reports) they can limit production by overpricing TV's, wait for japanese to catchup and loose momentum. -Or they can take great example from Sharp (as it did with 70-80" LCD's market) and leapfrog ahead of competitors from beginning. Market momentum based on - "Full HD", "3D" and "paper-thin-with-no-bezel" to move in volumes most popular 52-55" sizes, for more than $1500,- is running thin. Quad HD -way to expensive for switching whole broadcasting/media-content industry with no real benefit for consumer in real-life display sizes... So they pulled WOLED ace from the sleeve as a "Next big thing". Just in time.

The information is not correct.

1) Production cost is absolutely not cheaper than LCD. Again, it might be someday. It isn't now. Period.
2) They can't produce enough of these to sell them at similar-to-LCD pricing. Since they can't, they will sell them for premium prices. Period.

There is no point in speculating on gibberish.

There is no difference in HDMI cables. If you can see the picture without visible dropouts or sparklies, the cable is working at 100%. No other cable will display a better version of that picture. You're simply wrong if you think there is a better digital cable than one that is already working. (Oh, and plasma didn't die because of logistics problems, nor does OLED ship in big boxes because it comes from Korea.)
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post #117 of 862 Old 01-04-2012, 04:34 PM
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Originally Posted by rogo View Post

Panasonic is already beginning test production on OLED. They, like Samsung and LG, see it as the future. They are also planning on ramping up LCD to larger sizes in the meantime.

Fact is, if the production problems can be worked out, OLED will slowly begin to capture the high end and work its way down. The notion that the production problems are gone and this is a fait accompli is something I disagree with. But LG has taken a clever end around to avoid one of the major production problems. And Samsung is working on various tricks including brute force -- we'll do it over and over until we get it right doing it the way the way we want to -- and hasn't ruled out an LG-like method (although patents may need to be worked around).

Work around, or just copy them, which seemed to have been Samsungs motto allowing them to rise to the top of the heap from a consumer perspective? It has been more than two years since they have stolen patents, so I would say they are about due.
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post #118 of 862 Old 01-04-2012, 05:34 PM
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Work around, or just copy them, which seemed to have been Samsungs motto allowing them to rise to the top of the heap from a consumer perspective? It has been more than two years since they have stolen patents, so I would say they are about due.

Yeah, I'm not weighing in on the IP issues for a couple of reasons:

1) I'm not sure that LG's Kodak-licensed WOLED method is the only legal way to manufacture a WOLED. It's possible Samsung will find a legal workaround. It's possible they'll just rip off LG's method and deal with the lawsuits later.

2) It's possible Samsung's RGB method using masks will prove viable at scale and have acceptable yields. There are reasons to believe it won't; but Samsung knows how grim the situation really is and how far they've come to solving the inherent problems.

There is no difference in HDMI cables. If you can see the picture without visible dropouts or sparklies, the cable is working at 100%. No other cable will display a better version of that picture. You're simply wrong if you think there is a better digital cable than one that is already working. (Oh, and plasma didn't die because of logistics problems, nor does OLED ship in big boxes because it comes from Korea.)
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post #119 of 862 Old 01-04-2012, 05:39 PM
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In current state of economy and considering that everyone already has pretty decent HDTVs and new LCD TVs cheap and beautiful, I would say 4-5k for 55" is on the top limit of "acceptable" for US market. Anything beyond that doesn't make any difference. If the person/company willing to spend $8k on this TV - no reason to believe they can't find 12 or 14. Sharp got unexpected business boost by "diving" beyond "red flag" prices, Pioneer did the opposit. And soon after -it's gone.As gorgeous Fujitsu Plasmas long before... All specs for LGs OLED TV pointing -it's Premium Mass Market product for PREMIUM price, not some kind of insain "Qualia" dead-end niche TV. OK! Last try - $5995... -Soon we will know!
PS: Chilax...
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post #120 of 862 Old 01-04-2012, 05:57 PM
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Originally Posted by CATYPH202 View Post

In current state of economy and considering that everyone already has pretty decent HDTVs and new LCD TVs cheap and beautiful, I would say 4-5k for 55" is on the top limit of "acceptable" for US market. Anything beyond that doesn't make any difference. If the person/company willing to spend $8k on this TV - no reason to believe they can't find 12 or 14. Sharp got unexpected business boost by "diving" beyond "red flag" prices, Pioneer did the opposit. And soon after -it's gone.As gorgeous Fujitsu Plasmas long before... All specs for LGs OLED TV pointing -it's Premium Mass Market product for PREMIUM price, not some kind of insain "Qualia" dead-end niche TV. OK! Last try - $5995... -Soon we will know!
PS: Chilax...

I think that's right, but also it's LG, so the MSRP on these could drop fast- faster than on Sharp's panel, and if 2013 is actually going at half the MSRP of 2012, there's a possibility of an LG OLED going for $2500 street. 2012 could see some price drops if no one touches these things and they'll take a bigger loss than anticipated to at least generate the sales numbers to get this technology in home, knowing that they can make that up the following year should they begin to mass produce these displays.

I also agree that if we start comparing this tv to premium products of existing technology, like the Sharp Elite, it doesn't quite add up because Elite is, like you said, set up to be a top of the line brand for a certain a/v consumer, where as the LG is being set up to be the best/cheapest way we can make OLED right now and as with any new technology it's priced in that highend spot.

"If you weren't such an ignorant troll, you'd be adorable" -rogo
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Reply OLED Technology and Flat Panels General

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