OLED TV vs LED TV, pros and cons? - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 35 Old 01-02-2012, 12:44 PM - Thread Starter
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pros: thinner
lighter
better color range
view angle
better motion picture

cons: burn in?
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post #2 of 35 Old 01-02-2012, 12:47 PM
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Cons: Too expensive. Too small.
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post #3 of 35 Old 01-02-2012, 01:07 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ranger 518 View Post

Cons: Too expensive. Too small.

LG will release a 55" this year cost is not known. I would not be surprised if LG shocks us with a low price to take over the market.
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post #4 of 35 Old 01-02-2012, 01:28 PM
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Its image quality suffers when running in non-native resolution. Pretty similar to LCD.
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post #5 of 35 Old 01-02-2012, 01:46 PM
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OLED

cons:
- short lifespan
- burn-in
- off-axis performance
- remember the early Plasma/LCd generations? ($)$.$$$$
- remember the early Plasma/LCd generations? expect OLED troubles next few years.
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showp...45&postcount=3
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post #6 of 35 Old 01-02-2012, 02:35 PM
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Why don't we wait until it becomes available then we can deal with reality? History's shown, there is always some trade-offs.

Call me fanboy, but am more excited about Apple's upcoming offering than the first commercially available big OLED.
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post #7 of 35 Old 01-02-2012, 02:41 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MrBobb View Post

Why don't we wait until it becomes available then we can deal with reality? History's shown, there is always some trade-offs.

Call me fanboy, but am more excited about Apple's upcoming offering than the first commercially available big OLED.

I agree, the technology LG is using might eliminate most if the negatives. The R&D on this technology is over a decade long.
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post #8 of 35 Old 01-02-2012, 05:29 PM
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If you have been on the forum for a while this display has been talked about so long that seeing a 55 inch version is really exciting.No matter what the initial problems are they will be solved at some point.This is definitely the beginning of a new and exciting display technology.Hopefully down the road this will replace my 8500 display and i wont have to mortgage my house to obtain it.

Matt
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post #9 of 35 Old 01-02-2012, 05:58 PM
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OLED will do away with the complexity of locally dimmed LED/LCD and provide
true blacks, and much greater contrast as the OLED pixels are individually controlled rather than zones being controlled.
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post #10 of 35 Old 01-02-2012, 06:44 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 8mile13 View Post

OLED

cons:
...
- off-axis performance
...

This seems to be contrary to everything I've read---could you please elaborate? Thanks!
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post #11 of 35 Old 01-02-2012, 08:40 PM
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OLED displays are definitely the most vibrant.

- Black levels will be extremely rich, almost perfect and will match what the TV is like when it is off.
- Viewing angle will be nearly perfect (no contrast degradation)
- It will be view-able even in a bright sunny room

And just to say, this is no "NEW" kind of technology that will revolutionize the market.. OLED technology is being used in phones (ie. Samsung/Google Nexus S, Galaxy S2 phones).

As far as price goes, it shouldn't be much different (it doesn't cost that much EXTRA to PRODUCE it), but the manufacturers will definitely hype up the price to completely new levels and advertise this as a "next-generation technology".
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post #12 of 35 Old 01-02-2012, 09:08 PM
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I was going to mention same thing: I keep thinking my older phone had some kind of OLED display on it.
As far as prices go, keep in mind it is totally new technology (as far as TV goes), so whole factory has to be set up for new production, probably they will have high reject rate, plus all the research and development, the costs have to be in millions if not billions and if you add to this very little competition, I would expect initially those sets to be expensive. It may even cost less to make OLED panel than LCD, but not before production is ramped up to millions units/year and technology itself matures. And there is a difference between making 4 inch 900k pixel screen and 55inch 2000k pixel panel.
And what's up with this Apple reference in OLED thread? Are they coming with OLED sets this yr as well? They sure have boat load of money to take chances with unproven technology.

Quote:
Originally Posted by waazup View Post

OLED displays are definitely the most vibrant.


And just to say, this is no "NEW" kind of technology that will revolutionize the market.. OLED technology is being used in phones (ie. Samsung/Google Nexus S, Galaxy S2 phones).

As far as price goes, it shouldn't be much different (it doesn't cost that much EXTRA to PRODUCE it), but the manufacturers will definitely hype up the price to completely new levels and advertise this as a "next-generation technology".

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post #13 of 35 Old 01-02-2012, 09:43 PM
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This thread will probably get moved to the flat panel general tech subforum, where the exact topic was beaten to death long ago

Quote:
Originally Posted by pete4 View Post

I was going to mention same thing: I keep thinking my older phone had some kind of OLED display on it.
As far as prices go, keep in mind it is totally new technology (as far as TV goes), so whole factory has to be set up for new production, probably they will have high reject rate, plus all the research and development, the costs have to be in millions if not billions and if you add to this very little competition, I would expect initially those sets to be expensive. It may even cost less to make OLED panel than LCD, but not before production is ramped up to millions units/year and technology itself matures. And there is a difference between making 4 inch 900k pixel screen and 55inch 2000k pixel panel.

Pete said it better than i ever could. Anyone who follows this business/manufacturing segment would agree.

This LG will be extremely expensive, and the next 3 or 4 manufacturers after them will put a prohibitively high price on their first model as well. Hype is just one possible factor in the price, research and development costs (the early adopters usually compensate for that, historically anyway), production costs and rejects will factor heavily here.

The good news? We have to start somewhere, and the future of TV's has nearly arrived. We have been at this stage before with plasma, standard LCD and LED LCD's, production will eventually ramp up, prices will drop slowly but surely. The problem is the future never gets here fast enough when you are waiting on new tech.
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post #14 of 35 Old 01-03-2012, 04:14 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Robin; View Post

This seems to be contrary to everything I've read---could you please elaborate? Thanks!

Can be found in - OLED TVs: Technology Advancements thread -

A pro wrote a kind of review when he switched from a CRT monitor to a OLED monitor
http://provideocoalition.com/index.p....._finally/P0/
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post #15 of 35 Old 01-03-2012, 05:25 AM
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Dunno, my Galaxy S2 has about as "perfect" of off axis performance as I've seen from a display. I see vibrant colors and can clearly read text out to around 170 deg.

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post #16 of 35 Old 01-03-2012, 08:11 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bigus; View Post

Dunno, my Galaxy S2 has about as "perfect" of off axis performance as I've seen from a display. I see vibrant colors and can clearly read text out to around 170 deg.

Here is another link that confirmes that the Sony OLED monitor has color shift problems.
http://colorgrader.net/index.php/gra...s-autocue.html

Another pro concludes that ''most OLEDs have very little perceptible off-axis contrast drop, which is great, but color shift is an issue that in many OLED solutions i personally find more noticable than some high-end LCd based solutions.''
http://forums.creativecow.net/readpost/286/291

They confirm what the pro in my post says ''As with LCd's, when you get too far off center, the color shifts.''
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post #17 of 35 Old 01-03-2012, 08:35 AM
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LG's WOLED design vertically stacks all the organic light emitting diodes. I'm wondering if that might positively affect the color shift issue. In contrast, Sony's design employs three RGB oleds, horizontally and discretely arranged.

Update:

Just found this:

http://www.oled-display.net/backgrou...tv-technology/

I guess the point is that because the OLEDs combine to form white, which then is filtered to create the colors, the fading or changing of the blue oled (a source of color shift) can be compensated for.

Again, the great positive for OLED is the ability to control individual pixels, producing true black and heightened contrast, without the complexity of local dimming.
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post #18 of 35 Old 01-03-2012, 03:56 PM
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There may be cons, but off axis is not going to be one of them vs. LCD. Sorry LCD fans.

There is no difference in HDMI cables. If you can see the picture without visible dropouts or sparklies, the cable is working at 100%. No other cable will display a better version of that picture. You're simply wrong if you think there is a better digital cable than one that is already working. (Oh, and plasma didn't die because of logistics problems, nor does OLED ship in big boxes because it comes from Korea.)
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post #19 of 35 Old 01-03-2012, 04:22 PM
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^^ +1 it is an implementation problem not OLED inherent problem. Just as HTC's OLED handset. Sorry Sony fans
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post #20 of 35 Old 01-03-2012, 05:03 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rogo; View Post

There may be cons, but off axis is not going to be one of them vs. LCD. Sorry LCD fans.

Nobody said that OLED has worse off-axis performance than LCd Rogo, show me the post where a 'LCd fan' made such a claim. What i am saying is that OLED itself has off-axis problems, i base this upon observations by professionals.

I also do not get the 'sorry Sony fans' comment ^Specuvester ^, folks in my links are quite negative about Sony OLED monitors. Someone who would read those links would definitely think twice before buying a Sony OLED monitor.


After doing some reading - off-axis color shift, burn-in, high number of pixel defects(even in panels deemed to be 'acceptable'), short lifespan, $$.$$$ (the 55 inch will probably cost $9999,99, some say $8000 other say $5000, i go for the Hometheater price estimation http://hometheater.about.com/b/2011/...ch-oled-tv.htm ), i would also consider the thinness a negative this will make the product fragile <- no good -, i would think twice before buying a larger sized OLED right now. Let them work out the bugs first.
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post #21 of 35 Old 01-03-2012, 05:13 PM
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What I'm saying is that short lifespan, especially blue, low yield or pixel defects, cost, etc are possible OLED issues.

But off axis is not an INHERENT issue with emitters.

And yes, as much as I'm keen on OLED, I'm always not keen to be early adopters and pay for R&D and be "tester" at the same time
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post #22 of 35 Old 01-03-2012, 06:00 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by waazup View Post

OLED displays are definitely the most vibrant.

- Black levels will be extremely rich, almost perfect and will match what the TV is like when it is off.

This is not guaranteed. Sony's HMZ-T1 uses OLED displays and only has 10,000:1 contrast. At 100 nits this drops to 5,000:1. (HT levels are 100 nits or less) Black was noticeably worse than my HX909 local-dimmed LCD, and worse than the second generation Kuros.

Quote:
Originally Posted by waazup View Post

- Viewing angle will be nearly perfect (no contrast degradation)

That's not true. Viewing angle should be better than LCD, but CRT and Plasma still have better viewing angles, especially if the display uses a microcavity design. (which is done for a good reason though)

Quote:
Originally Posted by waazup View Post

- It will be view-able even in a bright sunny room

OLED displays are much dimmer than LCDs.

Quote:
Originally Posted by waazup View Post

As far as price goes, it shouldn't be much different (it doesn't cost that much EXTRA to PRODUCE it), but the manufacturers will definitely hype up the price to completely new levels and advertise this as a "next-generation technology".

I was under the impression that when you're looking at the big picture, OLED will get cheaper to produce eventually, but that it's still more expensive than LCD is right now.

Quote:
Originally Posted by taichi4 View Post

LG's WOLED design vertically stacks all the organic light emitting diodes. I'm wondering if that might positively affect the color shift issue. In contrast, Sony's design employs three RGB oleds, horizontally and discretely arranged.

Where are you seeing this? All I'm seeing is that they use white OLEDs with RGB color filters on top. I wouldn't expect it to have anything other than an RGBW stripe subpixel layout. (similar to what Sharp does with their RGBY LCDs)



I expect that OLED will lag behind LCD for a few years when it comes to resolution. We're going to be seeing 4K LCDs released this year, I imagine it's going to more difficult for OLED to make the shift to 4K.

There are potential flicker problems with OLED, power consumption is higher than LCD, heat is a potential issue (phone OLED displays often dim themselves to avoid overheating) uneven wear/burn-in.

The HMZ-T1 OLEDs exhibited "crosstalk" problems similar to this artefact seen with Plasma displays. Hopefully that won't show up with larger TVs.
It's likely that OLED will utilise an ABL that dims the picture similar to PDP as well.
OLED displays are unproven when it comes to gradation, the HMZ-T1 had a lot of banding in the image compared to my HX909, despite it being a "true 8-bit" panel and using Sony's 14-bit SBMV processing.
Having a wider native gamut could prove to be a disadvantage when it comes to BT.709 color accuracy.

I'm very excited about OLED displays, but they have yet to prove themselves and there are a number of potential issues.
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post #23 of 35 Old 01-03-2012, 06:18 PM
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OLED displays will also suffer from motion-blur due to eye-tracking. You can easily see this on mobile phones using an OLED display.
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post #24 of 35 Old 01-03-2012, 06:22 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chronoptimist View Post

...

Where are you seeing this? All I'm seeing is that they use white OLEDs with RGB color filters on top. I wouldn't expect it to have anything other than an RGBW stripe subpixel layout. (similar to what Sharp does with their RGBY LCDs)...

All over the web. This stacked architecture was something that LG got from Kodak.

Here's just a quick link:

http://hexus.net/ce/news/audio-visua...hdtv-ces-2012/

Actually the idea precedes WOLED. I posted a link on one of these threads about the SLED design, which stacked RGB LEDs in a vertical structure.

Here is that link (to a PDF):
http://personal.cityu.edu.hk/~kwansh...aper/2PSSC.pdf
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post #25 of 35 Old 01-03-2012, 06:49 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by taichi4 View Post

All over the web. This stacked architecture was something that LG got from Kodak.

Here's just a quick link:

http://hexus.net/ce/news/audio-visua...hdtv-ces-2012/

Thanks, I was misunderstanding thisI thought you meant that the subpixels were vertically stacked (which is really only possible with TOLEDs) rather than saying that the "white OLEDs" are actually just stacked RGB OLEDs... which seems like a very strange decision if I'm understanding that correctly. Doesn't that make it more complex than an RGB OLED display?
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post #26 of 35 Old 01-03-2012, 07:25 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chronoptimist View Post

Thanks, I was misunderstanding this—I thought you meant that the subpixels were vertically stacked (which is really only possible with TOLEDs) rather than saying that the "white OLEDs" are actually just stacked RGB OLEDs... which seems like a very strange decision if I'm understanding that correctly. Doesn't that make it more complex than an RGB OLED display?

In terms of manufacture it should be simpler because it eliminates masking precisely for three OLEDs, and it has the advantage of creating a smaller pixel. The design also apparently allows easier compensation for potential degradation of the blue oled.

The article I linked to about SLED makes an informative read, since the design concept is similar.

I have a hunch the design will yield improved brightness, since there is less light lost in a stacked arrangement to produce white.
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post #27 of 35 Old 01-03-2012, 07:32 PM
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If viewing angle or color shifts are potential issues now, they could be corrected or worked on. What amazes me is that this is the first run of these sets, in a way, compared to plasma back in the late 90's and they're already superior to those very mature technologies with regard to picture quality. This makes me wonder what sort of picture quality improvements, if any, will be made or perhaps higher resolution will be the next step.

"If you weren't such an ignorant troll, you'd be adorable" -rogo
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post #28 of 35 Old 01-03-2012, 07:43 PM
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^^^ correct... we have to correctly identify what is inherent to the tech and what is an implementation issue.

For eg 8mile13's link to this article talks about black crush and white clipping. That is not an OLED issue. That is a Sony issue

Quote:
Originally Posted by 8mile13 View Post

Here is another link that confirmes that the Sony OLED monitor has color shift problems.
http://colorgrader.net/index.php/gra...s-autocue.html

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post #29 of 35 Old 01-04-2012, 12:18 AM
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Quote:


OLED displays are much dimmer than LCDs.

Not really. You can use OLED-TV´s without problems in bright daylight.

Quote:


OLED displays will also suffer from motion-blur due to eye-tracking.

No. OLED has the best motion handling of all flat panels. They can implement without problems 240Hz + Dark Frame Insertion at the same time to reduce sample and hold and flickering to zero!

Quote:


I expect that OLED will lag behind LCD for a few years when it comes to resolution. We're going to be seeing 4K LCDs released this year, I imagine it's going to more difficult for OLED to make the shift to 4K.

Samsung´s OLED inkjet technology from DuPont can use the same Oxide-TFT backplane as for LCD. If a 4K-TFT-backplane is standard for LCD, than no problem to use it also for OLED.

Here is a very good review of the LG 15EL9500. It has an outstanding picture quality. It has also an better viewing angle than Sony´s OLED-TV´s (it´s more a Sony problem). From the start OLED will be much better in picture quality than Plasma and LCD!

http://www.flatpanelshd.com/review.p...&id=1289487180
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post #30 of 35 Old 01-04-2012, 02:34 AM
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There's way too much speculation and guessing posing as fact here. Try some reality by reading what's real about OLED tech and LG's upcoming OLED TV at:

http://hdguru.com/us-version-of-lgs-...t-photos/6945/
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