70 Inch Panny Plasma vs. 70-80 inch Sharp LCD? - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 42 Old 01-03-2012, 12:01 PM - Thread Starter
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Apparently Panasonic will reveal a 70 inch plasma TV at CES possibly as a European model. When do you who have been following extra large plasma TVs think the US will see a 70 inch or larger Panny plasma and what do you think the ballpark $$$ will be? Will the 70 or larger plasma compete with the Sharp LCDs in price? I recently saw the original 70 inch Sharp LCD for $1,950, but that was a closeout.

Thanks In Advance
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post #2 of 42 Old 01-04-2012, 09:30 AM
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Where did u hear this? Our guess in the 70"+ thread is that it should be 75" since panny has an existing 85" model and their motherglass diagonal is around 150".

My guess is that Panny 70/75" should be around $2k street price (not MSRP)
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post #3 of 42 Old 01-04-2012, 10:10 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by specuvestor View Post

Where did u hear this? Our guess in the 70"+ thread is that it should be 75" since panny has an existing 85" model and their motherglass diagonal is around 150".

My guess is that Panny 70/75" should be around $2k street price (not MSRP)

Over on HDJ somebody posted a link that shows the (European) new SKU numbers for Panasonic. There was a 70vt50 listed...no 75. I think this has lead most people to think we will get a 70 in the U.S. as well.


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post #4 of 42 Old 01-04-2012, 10:23 AM
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Why not wait for the 84" LG 4K TV to be shown at CES.
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post #5 of 42 Old 01-04-2012, 10:29 AM
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Originally Posted by coolscan View Post

Why not wait for the 84" LG 4K TV to be shown at CES.

because nothing will be broadcasted in that format yet...mmmm 2020 maybe..
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post #6 of 42 Old 01-04-2012, 11:20 AM
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because nothing will be broadcasted in that format yet...mmmm 2020 maybe..

up conversion -the new jvc FP are doing a decent job with eshift,the tvs should be able to also.

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post #7 of 42 Old 01-04-2012, 11:38 AM
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Originally Posted by eat meat View Post

up conversion -the new jvc FP are doing a decent job with eshift,the tvs should be able to also.

Absolutely! And Sony can apparently compress 4K onto standard BluRay media. You'd need a different player, of course. But there are many movies shot natively in 4K, and many, many films being upscaled to 4K as we speak.
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post #8 of 42 Old 01-04-2012, 11:38 AM
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I thought Panny was shelving mass production of 70-90" Plasmas because they would exceed the government energy guidelines. Also, 4K is coming quicker than mass production of large OLED, simply because of passive 3D and the up converting for larger screens.
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post #9 of 42 Old 01-04-2012, 11:49 AM
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Originally Posted by sytech View Post

I thought Panny was shelving mass production of 70-90" Plasmas because they would exceed the government energy guidelines. Also, 4K is coming quicker than mass production of large OLED, simply because of passive 3D and the up converting for larger screens.

Yep. That's another reason 4K will likely be rolled out sooner than later. Full HD for passive 3D.
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post #10 of 42 Old 01-04-2012, 11:54 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by specuvestor View Post

Where did u hear this? Our guess in the 70"+ thread is that it should be 75" since panny has an existing 85" model and their motherglass diagonal is around 150".

My guess is that Panny 70/75" should be around $2k street price (not MSRP)



You're kidding right? A 65 inch Panny plasma is over $2,000 and your "guess" is that a 70 inch will be around $2,000? 75 inch Panny plasma is a dream at this point for the US market.

Maybe 6-9 months after initial release the price of a 70 inch will be anywhere near $2,000. My "guess" is that Panasonic does not want to engage in a price war with Sharp for the extra large panel market. Sharp has been very aggressive with its extra large LCDs because they invested in a new plant to handle the huge glass.

The 80 inch Sharp is on its way to becoming a commodity what with all the "Viewmongous" TV advertising.

And, as another member mentioned, there may not be any plasma larger than 65 inches due to energy consumption.
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post #11 of 42 Old 01-04-2012, 12:01 PM
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Originally Posted by coolscan View Post

Why not wait for the 84" LG 4K TV to be shown at CES.

Yeah ... wait the five or so years before it comes out ... and maybe by that time you can save the $20K or more that it will cost. Remember that 4K is six times more rez than 1080p, so maybe in 5 years there will be some 4K media you can watch on it.
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post #12 of 42 Old 01-04-2012, 12:03 PM
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Originally Posted by taichi4 View Post

Absolutely! And Sony can apparently compress 4K onto standard BluRay media. You'd need a different player, of course. But there are many movies shot natively in 4K, and many, many films being upscaled to 4K as we speak.

Good quality film does not need to be "upscaled to 4K" ... it's already that and more. Where exactly are these upscaled films for sale?
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post #13 of 42 Old 01-04-2012, 12:25 PM
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Originally Posted by HerbalEd View Post

Good quality film does not need to be "upscaled to 4K" ... it's already that and more. Where exactly are these upscaled films for sale?

First, for those who have seen it (eg. LG's 84 inch 4K TV) 4K does improve picture quality on larger displays. It pretty much eliminates any pixel structure, and increases color depth. People who have seen these sets describe the high res image as 3D-like. I recall reading of a larger 4K prototype from another vendor.

The following article from Hometheater will elaborate on the benefits and inevitability of 4K. Just because you can't buy 4K BluRays today, doesn't mean you won't be able to in a year or two.
http://www.hometheater.com/content/4k-revolution

You can do a search on the web to confirm for yourself that 2k films are steadily being upscaled.

And as the earlier poster pointed out, current media can be upscaled to 4K with some benefits.
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post #14 of 42 Old 01-04-2012, 02:28 PM
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Originally Posted by HerbalEd View Post

Good quality film does not need to be "upscaled to 4K" ... it's already that and more. Where exactly are these upscaled films for sale?

A lot of the studio masters are in 4K resolution or greater and the movie studios you love to eventually sell you another copy of a movie you already own. The TV manufactures will push it so they can sell you Full HD passive 3D and for marketing bragging rights that their TV has 4 times the resolution of OLED. 4K will also benefit the new larger 70-100" sizes coming out. Whether it is needed or not, I would expect to see more 4K sets for sale before you see any decent priced large screen OLED. 1080p sets where for sale a few years before any serious 1080p content was even available.
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post #15 of 42 Old 01-04-2012, 04:36 PM
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You're kidding right? A 65 inch Panny plasma is over $2,000 and your "guess" is that a 70 inch will be around $2,000? 75 inch Panny plasma is a dream at this point for the US market.

Maybe 6-9 months after initial release the price of a 70 inch will be anywhere near $2,000. My "guess" is that Panasonic does not want to engage in a price war with Sharp for the extra large panel market. Sharp has been very aggressive with its extra large LCDs because they invested in a new plant to handle the huge glass.

The 80 inch Sharp is on its way to becoming a commodity what with all the "Viewmongous" TV advertising.

And, as another member mentioned, there may not be any plasma larger than 65 inches due to energy consumption.

Nope my guess is 65" will be priced down if this 70-75" is actually launched in the US market. They may not undercut Sharp for a price war but they have to be priced roughly the same. Nonetheless being non American I've always complained how low US prices are so I won't be surprised if Panny doesn't even try in US.

IIRC energy regulation only applies to 50" and below. In any case Panny is not going to focus on huge size plasma anymore as they are shutting down their new P5 fab.
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post #16 of 42 Old 01-04-2012, 07:19 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HerbalEd View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by coolscan View Post

Why not wait for the 84" LG 4K TV to be shown at CES.

Yeah ... wait the five or so years before it comes out ... and maybe by that time you can save the $20K or more that it will cost.

I'm going to have a 4K Laser projector first. Maybe this year if it isn't too expensive.

Then I will wait for a 8K TV, like the one Sharp showed last year. Good for full 4K resolution 3D, maybe even glass free.

Several big budget 3D movies are being shot in 48fps 4K this year, so by the time 8K TV's are affordable there should be quite a lot of 4K 3D content.

Summer Olympics in London will have 8K test broadcasts to several places in Britain, Japan and Washington DC, if everything goes to plan. Regular 8K test broadcast in Japan in 2020.
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Remember that 4K is six times more rez than 1080p, so maybe in 5 years there will be some 4K media you can watch on it.

No it isn't.
4K TV is four times HD 3840x2160, or Quad HD if you like (about 8MP).
4K Movie standard is slightly larger.
8K is 7680 × 4320, 33MP.
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post #17 of 42 Old 01-04-2012, 10:41 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by specuvestor View Post

IIRC energy regulation only applies to 50" and below. In any case Panny is not going to focus on huge size plasma anymore as they are shutting down their new P5 fab.

Energy Star covers all display sizes. Panasonic's insane efforts to get Energy Star stickers on large plasmas may lead to the demise of PDP. I don't want to suggest the sky is falling, but I'm nervous.

Panasonic appears to be focusing their plasma efforts mostly on the larger sizes, actually and generally retrenching around lower PDP capacity and more LCD. (With investments toward a future in OLED.)

There is no difference in HDMI cables. If you can see the picture without visible dropouts or sparklies, the cable is working at 100%. No other cable will display a better version of that picture. You're simply wrong if you think there is a better digital cable than one that is already working.
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post #18 of 42 Old 01-05-2012, 12:50 AM
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Originally Posted by taichi4 View Post

First, for those who have seen it (eg. LG's 84 inch 4K TV) 4K does improve picture quality on larger displays. It pretty much eliminates any pixel structure, and increases color depth. People who have seen these sets describe the high res image as 3D-like. I recall reading of a larger 4K prototype from another vendor.

This is nonsense if one considers standard TV viewing scenario which means the viewing distances is at minimum 3-4 PH (picture height). It is impossible to see pixel structure at this distance and increased color depth is just baloney.

To see any benefit from 4K the maximum viewing distance is 2.5 PH with perfect content.

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Originally Posted by taichi4 View Post

The following article from Hometheater will elaborate on the benefits and inevitability of 4K. Just because you can't buy 4K BluRays today, doesn't mean you won't be able to in a year or two.
http://www.hometheater.com/content/4k-revolution

You can do a search on the web to confirm for yourself that 2k films are steadily being upscaled.

And as the earlier poster pointed out, current media can be upscaled to 4K with some benefits.

The article is a piece of propaganda pushing 4K on ignorant consumers. Apart of the viewing distance, what is by far the most important issue is compression ratio. It is evident that less-compressed 2K will have better PQ than highly compressed 4K. Squeezing 4K onto Blu-ray may thus be absurd if one does not know what will be the bit rate.

Same with the upconversion of 2K to 4K providing better PQ. This is stupid beyond recognition. For those not fluent in upconversion it is sufficient to remind that if upconversion could improve PQ then SDTV upconverted to HDTV woould look fantastic.

Where the 4K is urgently needed is computer monitors. The viewing distance is then perfect for 4K and there is demand for it from the content side, e.g. digital photography processing.

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post #19 of 42 Old 01-05-2012, 02:55 AM
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Originally Posted by rogo View Post

Energy Star covers all display sizes. Panasonic's insane efforts to get Energy Star stickers on large plasmas may lead to the demise of PDP. I don't want to suggest the sky is falling, but I'm nervous.

Panasonic appears to be focusing their plasma efforts mostly on the larger sizes, actually and generally retrenching around lower PDP capacity and more LCD. (With investments toward a future in OLED.)

I was actually thinking of the Californian regulation.

Yes Panny will be making plasma as large as they are currently are. Or what size LG/Sammy is pushing. Probably around 60-75". But certainly not focusing going huge anymore. IMHO the battle for huge size is over for plasma when Panny shuts the P5, NOT when Sharp sells 70" at outrageous price.

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I don't cover japanese stocks but here's more info on panny's strategy:
http://panasonic.net/ir/presentation...031_note_e.pdf

What has started to sink in for me is their plan to shut down the massive & latest P5 described here:
http://www.avforums.com/forums/14224794-post5.html

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...5#post21156685
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post #20 of 42 Old 01-05-2012, 03:57 AM
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Not that I have much to add to the discussion, but I will vouch for the 4K e-shift on new JVC projectors. I have never seen such detail from a home front projector as I have from the DLA-X70 projector they have set up at my store. It replaced a DLA-X7 and although it is only being fed 1080p BD content, I've never seen said content look better and did not notice any picture anomalies while watching Jurassic Park, Tron: Legacy, Transformers, etc. on it. I was able to walk literally a foot away to our 115" screen and not notice any visible picture structure. I can only imagine what it would look like if fed with an actual 4K feed.

I hope 4K resolution comes to quasi-affordable consumer displays, and comes sooner rather than later. With the advent of 70" and 80" flat panels, 1080p isn't going to cut it for much longer. BD content looks unimpressive on the Sharp 80LE632...I'm not sure if it's a limitation of 1080p on such a large screen, or the fact that it's just not a videophile-grade set, or a combination thereof. It's hard to know without an 80" 1080p Elite to compare it to.

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post #21 of 42 Old 01-05-2012, 05:16 AM
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I was able to walk literally a foot away to our 115" screen and not notice any visible picture structure. ...I hope 4K resolution comes to quasi-affordable consumer displays...

Yeah, this will be perfect tech for those watching 100"+ displays from a foot away . Seriously, at the distance of 3-4 picture heights which is intended for television viewing it is impossible to see any pixel structure at and beyond 2K.

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I can only imagine what it would look like if fed with an actual 4K feed....

This statement is meaningless if one does not know how much the feed is compressed. Remember that 4K requires about 4x more data than 2K for equivalent PQ and bandwidth is expensive. This will force to increase the compression and in result 4K may not look better or even may look worse than 2K. Obviously to prevent it looking worse ultrasophisticated picture improvement processing will be much advertised resulting in the major achievement of PQ being similar to the plain old 2K . BTW, what is shown at demos with 4K are lightly compressed or uncompressed content. This has nothing to do with reality. Reality is such that 2K compressed at the rate required for 4K will beat it in any practical TV viewing.

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post #22 of 42 Old 01-05-2012, 05:52 AM
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Won't 4K be good for LG's passive 3D? That should make it worthwhile, I would think.
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post #23 of 42 Old 01-05-2012, 03:27 PM - Thread Starter
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Can anyone be more specific about the shutting down of the Panny P5 fabrication plant? How will this affect the production of Panny 65+ PDP displays?
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post #24 of 42 Old 01-05-2012, 05:10 PM
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err did you see my link??
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post #25 of 42 Old 01-06-2012, 02:24 PM - Thread Starter
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err did you see my link??

Thanks for the heads up. I don't quite know what to make of the Panasonic plan to move towards larger plasma TVs. It seems that a 70-75 inch Panny plasma is much more likely, but I don't have a good sense of price, especially as compared to the Sharp 80 inch model currently available.
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Same with the upconversion of 2K to 4K providing better PQ. This is stupid beyond recognition. For those not fluent in upconversion it is sufficient to remind that if upconversion could improve PQ then SDTV upconverted to HDTV woould look fantastic.

jvc,s eshift looks great,seems you are wrong .

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post #27 of 42 Old 01-06-2012, 11:13 PM
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I suspect the reality is that truly monster plasmas were not in the cards for mass production due to weight/power issues. Once Sharp made real 70s and 80s, that problem was worsened.

Whatever size Panasonic comes out with this year (and the rumor is 70), will probably be the largest mass-market plasma we see. Apparently, whatever engineering is required to do a power-sipping, 120-lb. 85-inch is not something Panasonic believes would be recouped selling them for $4000.

There is no difference in HDMI cables. If you can see the picture without visible dropouts or sparklies, the cable is working at 100%. No other cable will display a better version of that picture. You're simply wrong if you think there is a better digital cable than one that is already working.
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post #28 of 42 Old 01-08-2012, 05:31 PM
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At that size, even with peformance aside as I like LED LCD better, the pure weight of a 70" Plasma will be more than what most people can handle safely without hired help.


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post #29 of 42 Old 01-08-2012, 05:49 PM
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In terms of image quality, CNET has ranked the Sharp Elite series (LED) as "the best HDTV tested since 2008", meaning that the only thing they think is better is the long-out-of-production Pioneer Kuro. That includes every plasma display still in production. Panasonic PDP's have never been competitive at the high end IMHO, I consider it Tier 2 image quality.

Don't confuse the Elites with the lower cost Sharp offerings at Costco, there is a huge difference that almost everybody can see immediately. The black levels are actually lower than the Kuro, but the colors are not quite as accurate. The Sharp Elites have the highest number of LEDs used for local dimming, making any blooming artifacts virtually unnoticeable.

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post #30 of 42 Old 01-11-2012, 03:42 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by spyboy View Post

Thanks for the heads up. I don't quite know what to make of the Panasonic plan to move towards larger plasma TVs. It seems that a 70-75 inch Panny plasma is much more likely, but I don't have a good sense of price, especially as compared to the Sharp 80 inch model currently available.

Looks like there's not going to be 70 or 75" in 2012 (excluding the rumour mills). Frankly the nail in the coffin for huge size Plasma is the closing of P5.

http://www.flatpanelshd.com/news.php...&id=1326154495
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