Samsung's 2012 OLED sets! - Page 4 - AVS Forum
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post #91 of 161 Old 05-14-2012, 03:58 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rogo View Post

Most digital video probably lacks that much contrast on a per-image basis. Compression algorithms have a tendency to remove dynamic range to some extent.

But that said, I'm very hopeful that well-produced BluRays are going to look noticeably better on a good OLED TV vs. whatever we can buy today. I'm also realistic enough to know (a) a lot of people won't see a difference and (b) a lot of source material won't really benefit from a better display than what we currently have.

But (b) isn't a reason to avoid seeking better displays (nor is (a) really). Instead, (b) is a reason to push for better content.

I'm all for better displays, regardless whether content yet exists to take advantage.

I've yet to see an OLED display other than those used in some cell phones, so I'm very curious to see if large format OLED displays suffer from some of the maladies that afflict plasma displays. I don't see why they wouldn't also be susceptible to burn-in and possibly exhibit line bleed.
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post #92 of 161 Old 05-14-2012, 05:20 PM
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Thanks Mr Wally

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post #93 of 161 Old 05-14-2012, 05:34 PM
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Isnt anyone upset that OLED TV's will only have 20 percent better color reproduction than existing LED-backlit LCD HDTVs?

I was expecting OLED's to blow LED TV's out of the park!

Source --- http://www.engadget.com/2012/05/10/s...d-worlds-fair/
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post #94 of 161 Old 05-14-2012, 06:27 PM
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Think I'll just summarise my 2cts thoughts here:

Yes I think lifetime and burn-in are probably still an issue with these 1st gen TV. However the beauty of OLED is that it is able to have properties of LCD and plasma:

1) Lifetime is supposedly to be better under LG RGBW solution. Let's see since I'm not too sure how they manage that with existing materials using just stack. Nonetheless I think if Sammy is able to raise it to say 50k hours half life, then it is probably a non issue for most usage.

2) Burn-in reduction can be optimised by adjusting the timing of the sample and hold cycle

3) color reproduction for REC709 is non issue. I think they should strive for sRGB by now for stills. That would be the color improvement. And gradation would be better I presume with emitters without the plasma dithering effect.

4) Off axis viewing should be non issue as per plasma, as long as they don't use Sony's "cavity structure"

5) Brightness should be comparable to LED backlit (with little ABL intrusion?) Hence contrast will be great (with glossy screens) with zero MLL blacks.

What I'm keen to see is whether the OLED TV will have the same greenish tint problem as the PSP Vita. I'm pretty sure that is a manufacturing process issue and not inherent to OLED structure. I'm also interested to see if Sammy OLED TV will be pentile.

That would summarise why I think OLED will outshine the current technologies. It is not a SINGULAR reason. Disagreements welcomed.
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post #95 of 161 Old 05-14-2012, 06:59 PM
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Spec,
Quote
"2) Burn-in reduction can be optimised by adjusting the timing of the sample and hold cycle
"
How would this work? AFAIK an LCD TCON circuit can only change the full actual image on the screen at it's next scheduled sample and hold time and does not delete the image from the display unless you consider a 240Hz or higher LCD with backlight scanning as deleating all of the content.
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post #96 of 161 Old 05-14-2012, 10:35 PM
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spec, I think that's a pretty good summary.

It's hard to know whether burn in will be a concern at all. It is not a real concern on plasma -- and hasn't been for years -- but it's also not a complete non issue in that people are aware of the possibility and, for example, you wouldn't run the same videogame on a plasma for hours and hours on end.

I tend to believe the LG will be better primarily because they get to pick a very different blue OLED material and that's likely to match the wear characteristics of the red and green better than what Samsung will be capable of using. It's also true that the LG method will result in uniform driving of all three colors, which makes compensation over the display life a possibility. (It's not realistic to do that on a per-sub-pixel basis on an RGB display).

There is no difference in HDMI cables. If you can see the picture without visible dropouts or sparklies, the cable is working at 100%. No other cable will display a better version of that picture. You're simply wrong if you think there is a better digital cable than one that is already working. (Oh, and plasma didn't die because of logistics problems, nor does OLED ship in big boxes because it comes from Korea.)
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post #97 of 161 Old 05-15-2012, 01:45 AM
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^^ My impression is that LG's blue material is not much different? But then again chemistry and material science is my weakest link How does uniform driving help since that will probably drive it to say 10k hours faster than individual driving?

Quote:
Originally Posted by walford View Post

Spec,
Quote
"2) Burn-in reduction can be optimised by adjusting the timing of the sample and hold cycle
"
How would this work? AFAIK an LCD TCON circuit can only change the full actual image on the screen at it's next scheduled sample and hold time and does not delete the image from the display unless you consider a 240Hz or higher the LCD with backlight scanning as deleating all of the content.

In this case think of it as an LED backlit. With constant voltage the LED is always lit, just as the 1st gen LED LCD. But when you add a TICON it introduces a controlled flicker aka emulating a pulse. The problem with LED LCD is that this pulse has to synchronise between LC layer response and the backlight strobbing. That's why Sony's Crystal LED is an INEVITABLE eventuality for LED LCD if technology continues to progress along that trajectory: the LC layer will be removed completely.

But Sammy chose OLED instead of going to this LED trajectory for a few reasons IMHO, despite having a large LED capacity and capability:
1) OLED individual RGB chromacity is better than LED individual RGB chromacity, and LED blue (?) still has issues.
2) theoretically OLED production, which is material science focused, is simplier than LED, which is semicon focused
3) OLED can be thinner and bendable, rollable, whatever because of 2)

As usual that much I know from a "macro" perspective. Let me know if the details are incorrect.
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post #98 of 161 Old 05-15-2012, 10:57 AM
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Spec,
I have been under the impression that the TCON ciruit on all LCD TVs controls the show and hold time so that the screen image is refreshed at the rated speed(hz) of the display.
So if an LCD TV is rated at 120Hz the display image is refreshed exactly every 1/120th of a second using the content from the current software output buffer, which is controlled by the firmware. Can you supply a link to the description that explains that the screen image is updated by a "controlled flicker" whose timing can be adjusted.
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post #99 of 161 Old 05-15-2012, 12:07 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by specuvestor View Post

^^ My impression is that LG's blue material is not much different? But then again chemistry and material science is my weakest link How does uniform driving help since that will probably drive it to say 10k hours faster than individual driving?

LG's material is a fluorescent blue that you wouldn't be able to use if you needed to see the blue as in the Samsung design. LG's blue need only act as a component of a credible white. It apparently has very different wear characteristics. This is what I've been told by a supplier of said material.

While I do agree with you that if it was short lifespan material, you'd drive it faster to 10K hours, you get a number of possible advantages even beyond what I just wrote above:

1) It's all driven the same amount. There is a color-shift risk, but not the same degree of burn-in risk. The underlying pixel is still going to shine a fairly consistent white.

2) Since everything is at the pixel level, it's possible they could choose to compensate over time and adjust the "mix" to get white as the panel ages. This won't be flawless but it would help mask any differential aging. The ability to do this on an RGB display would be much, much harder to achieve. (Note: I have no idea if LG is doing this and it would, in fact, require some fair amount of caution of possible color recalibration. But since the light sources are white, it's doable, even if it's not done at the pixel level.)

There is no difference in HDMI cables. If you can see the picture without visible dropouts or sparklies, the cable is working at 100%. No other cable will display a better version of that picture. You're simply wrong if you think there is a better digital cable than one that is already working. (Oh, and plasma didn't die because of logistics problems, nor does OLED ship in big boxes because it comes from Korea.)
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post #100 of 161 Old 05-15-2012, 06:31 PM
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^^ yes in fact I think the chromacity and "whiteness" of the RGBW is the real test of LG's solution

Quote:
Originally Posted by walford View Post

Spec,
I have been under the impression that the TCON ciruit on all LCD TVs controls the show and hold time so that the screen image is refreshed at the rated speed(hz) of the display.
So if an LCD TV is rated at 120Hz the display image is refreshed exactly every 1/120th of a second using the content from the current software output buffer, which is controlled by the firmware. Can you supply a link to the description that explains that the screen image is updated by a "controlled flicker" whose timing can be adjusted.

Yes that is correct for LCD but I guess I'm confused about your question: are u saying OLED cannot be sample and hold, yet exhibit controlled flicker
? This property has been confirmed by Nielo and xrox earlier. It is like as I explained above, LED doing strobbing or flickering

Frankly I've tried searching the web for TICON but apparently the topic is too technical. I don't even know who supplies the TICON to Sammy and LG OLED (but again it would be very small insignificant quantities)

Guess we'll know more when the TV is out
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post #101 of 161 Old 05-16-2012, 09:45 AM
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Sorry, I was off the subject by discussing only LCDs instead of sticking to OLED units.
I have not heard of TICON only TCON(with no I).
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post #102 of 161 Old 05-16-2012, 06:02 PM
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I probably misunderstood your question as well. With regards to the burn-in reduction, just note that OLED TV is emissive based, while LED LCD TV is backlight based. Induced flicker also does not change the image per se. It is more to do with how the eye accept the image.

yes TIming CONtroller... it's a spelling habit. Like my spelling of "wierd"
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post #103 of 161 Old 05-20-2012, 02:50 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mr. wally View Post

dudes, don't come into a thread and start calling some of our most knowledgeable members trolls. like wtf???

spec and rogo know a hell of a lot more than any of us.

feel free to post your thoughts but don't start bashing other members.

that just bad form and discourteous.

I'm not saying he doesn't have knowledge, he obviously has experience and knows the technical side very well. But his behavior and constant negative opinion about OLED has led some users to believe he's trolling (I'm not the only one believing so).

It's different.
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post #104 of 161 Old 05-20-2012, 08:56 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rogo View Post

Actually, it wasn't. LCDs sprung out of the laptop/desktop monitor market. It is certainly true that incremental size increases were the norm in LCD as motherglass went from 3G to 4G.... all the way 10G. Ironically, this in no way parallels OLED, where the major producers are trying to leapfrog all the way to 8G and to 55" diagonal sets.

Actually the first LCDs that produced images and not the calculator type I remember were not in laptops as they couldn't make them that size at that time without being super expensive.

The first ones were found in portable pocket TVs, they were tiny and awful in quality. They would have a 2" screen and even then would almost always have 1 or more bad pixels. The color ones had terrible color that looked mostly yellowish. They were replacing the old portable CRT TVs that had relatively bad battery life and were bulky.
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post #105 of 161 Old 05-20-2012, 08:59 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by brody76 View Post

I'm not saying he doesn't have knowledge, he obviously has experience and knows the technical side very well. But his behavior and constant negative opinion about OLED has led some users to believe he's trolling (I'm not the only one believing so).

It's different.

Your critical reading skill fails if you think I am constantly negative. It's that simple.

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Originally Posted by DaveC19 View Post

Actually the first LCDs I remember were not in laptops as they couldn't make them that size at that time without being super expensive.

The first ones were found in portable pocket TVs, they were tiny and awful in quality. They would have a 2" screen and even then would almost always have 1 or more bad pixels. The color ones had terrible color that looked mostly yellowish.

Yeah, none of those were active-matrix (aka TFT) however, which was first used in laptops. And they were terrible.

There is no difference in HDMI cables. If you can see the picture without visible dropouts or sparklies, the cable is working at 100%. No other cable will display a better version of that picture. You're simply wrong if you think there is a better digital cable than one that is already working. (Oh, and plasma didn't die because of logistics problems, nor does OLED ship in big boxes because it comes from Korea.)
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post #106 of 161 Old 06-06-2012, 06:30 PM
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Some specs on the Samsung TV....though that 1.6mm number seems like it has to be a mistake.

http://techon.nikkeibp.co.jp/english/NEWS_EN/20120607/221832/
Quote:
The 55-inch OLED panel has a contrast ratio of 150,000:1 and a 124% color gamut on NTSC standards. Its brightness is 150cd/m2 with an all-white signal, and its peak brightness is 600cd/m2. Its response speed is 0.001 second or faster. The weight of the panel is 3.5kg, and the thickness of the TV is 1.6mm.
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post #107 of 161 Old 06-06-2012, 10:47 PM
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I believe the panel itself is that thin.

There is no difference in HDMI cables. If you can see the picture without visible dropouts or sparklies, the cable is working at 100%. No other cable will display a better version of that picture. You're simply wrong if you think there is a better digital cable than one that is already working. (Oh, and plasma didn't die because of logistics problems, nor does OLED ship in big boxes because it comes from Korea.)
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post #108 of 161 Old 06-08-2012, 02:43 PM
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It's not infinite contrast???? Is this a new marketing direction for the people who brought a million to one to the forefront? I guess they'll use this as their marketing strategy for next year when they have an OLED with 200,000 : 1 or it could just be the reporting site.

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post #109 of 161 Old 06-08-2012, 03:26 PM
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Originally Posted by gmarceau View Post

It's not infinite contrast???? Is this a new marketing direction for the people who brought a million to one to the forefront? I guess they'll use this as their marketing strategy for next year when they have an OLED with 200,000 : 1 or it could just be the reporting site.
Did anyone expect it to be? I don't know of any released OLED TVs that are capable of that.

Sony's HMZ-T1 OLED head-mounted display (granted, not a TV, but the most recent home theatre OLED display) only had 10,000:1 contrast at 200 nits peak white. (0.02 nits black level)
Because they're posting best-case scenario specs, I expect that this means the Samsung OLED will have a black level of 0.004 nits. (about Kuro level)

I believe Sony's broadcast monitor OLED black levels are better than that (below measurable levels, not "off") but they're also significantly more expensive, and much smaller displays.
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post #110 of 161 Old 06-08-2012, 05:36 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gmarceau View Post

It's not infinite contrast???? Is this a new marketing direction for the people who brought a million to one to the forefront? I guess they'll use this as their marketing strategy for next year when they have an OLED with 200,000 : 1 or it could just be the reporting site.

It isnt the reporting site. I have seen a pic of the spec card from SID and it shows a contrast ratio of 150k.

Rogo was right that the weight and thickness specs were for the panel (actually listed as module), and not for the entire TV.
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post #111 of 161 Old 06-09-2012, 07:09 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chronoptimist View Post

Did anyone expect it to be? I don't know of any released OLED TVs that are capable of that.
Sony's HMZ-T1 OLED head-mounted display (granted, not a TV, but the most recent home theatre OLED display) only had 10,000:1 contrast at 200 nits peak white. (0.02 nits black level)
Because they're posting best-case scenario specs, I expect that this means the Samsung OLED will have a black level of 0.004 nits. (about Kuro level)
I believe Sony's broadcast monitor OLED black levels are better than that (below measurable levels, not "off") but they're also significantly more expensive, and much smaller displays.

You're kidding me. Everyone is expecting this to have blacks that have no idle luminance- pretty much everyone on this whole forum, unless things changed within the last 24 hrs. I thought that was the draw for videophiles. Blacks are being touted to be better than a 9G Kuro. The old Sony XEL-1 set had deeper blacks than the 9G.

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post #112 of 161 Old 06-09-2012, 07:11 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by slacker711 View Post

It isnt the reporting site. I have seen a pic of the spec card from SID and it shows a contrast ratio of 150k.
Rogo was right that the weight and thickness specs were for the panel (actually listed as module), and not for the entire TV.

Expectations are slowly being lowered. This is like the presidency...

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post #113 of 161 Old 06-09-2012, 08:32 AM
 
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^Yea well, some of us had deep-seated suspicions about that hype train from the beginning. wink.gif
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post #114 of 161 Old 06-09-2012, 09:54 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gmarceau View Post

You're kidding me. Everyone is expecting this to have blacks that have no idle luminance- pretty much everyone on this whole forum, unless things changed within the last 24 hrs. I thought that was the draw for videophiles. Blacks are being touted to be better than a 9G Kuro. The old Sony XEL-1 set had deeper blacks than the 9G.
Do you have a source for this other than word of mouth? I'm not saying that you're wrong, but if we went by word of mouth, the original 720p Kuros had "perfect" black levels that blended with the bezel in a dark room, but in reality they were what, 3,000:1 when calibrated to reference levels?

One of the reasons that OLED tends to look really nice on the show floor is that they have better screen coatings than most other flat panels, showing deeper black levels:
erphoto16187252.jpg

I suspect that part of this is due to the fact that these panels are not especially bright. (e.g. 150 nits on the new Samsung with a full field white screen)


Even Sony, who makes the best OLED displays yet, don't make claims about perfect black level—they claim 1,000,000:1 and place black level at some point between 0.00001 and 0.0001 nits with the BVM-E250. I certainly wouldn't be expecting displays comparable to broadcast monitors right out of the gate, especially when Samsung are using different technologies. I don't believe they're even using a deep cell structure with their design?

Even at a best-case scenario with that 150,000:1 you're looking at 0.001 nits black level, but when they list a peak white of 600 nits, I'd be expecting 0.004.


Black level is not the only area OLED is good at though. Response times should be significantly faster than any other displays currently on the market. It's certainly going to be interesting to see what the ABL effects are like when the panel goes from a peak of 600 nits down to 150 though.
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post #115 of 161 Old 06-10-2012, 07:51 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chronoptimist View Post

Do you have a source for this other than word of mouth? I'm not saying that you're wrong, but if we went by word of mouth, the original 720p Kuros had "perfect" black levels that blended with the bezel in a dark room, but in reality they were what, 3,000:1 when calibrated to reference levels?
One of the reasons that OLED tends to look really nice on the show floor is that they have better screen coatings than most other flat panels, showing deeper black levels:
erphoto16187252.jpg
I suspect that part of this is due to the fact that these panels are not especially bright. (e.g. 150 nits on the new Samsung with a full field white screen)
Even Sony, who makes the best OLED displays yet, don't make claims about perfect black level—they claim 1,000,000:1 and place black level at some point between 0.00001 and 0.0001 nits with the BVM-E250. I certainly wouldn't be expecting displays comparable to broadcast monitors right out of the gate, especially when Samsung are using different technologies. I don't believe they're even using a deep cell structure with their design?
Even at a best-case scenario with that 150,000:1 you're looking at 0.001 nits black level, but when they list a peak white of 600 nits, I'd be expecting 0.004.
Black level is not the only area OLED is good at though. Response times should be significantly faster than any other displays currently on the market. It's certainly going to be interesting to see what the ABL effects are like when the panel goes from a peak of 600 nits down to 150 though.

I'm going by reviews on prior OLED tv panels, so I'm relying on measurements with luminance meters. We've got a David Katzimeier review from CNET 4 years ago on the XEL-1 saying it had better black level performance than their reference standard Kuro 111FD. There's been countless reviews of the 15" LG OLED in Europe having the best black level performance ever seen. AVForums has a review of the LG 15" OLED. Can't remember the other european site that said the same thing- they review panels all the time.

Sony isn't claiming absolute black, this is true, as I caught some of those charts you're referencing with their monitor line. There's a chance though that any idle luminance will be undetectable in a light controlled environment. At the least, it will be better than the best of Kuro, which would be welcome for enthusiasts.

This is the first generation of large screen OLED and maybe the third (?) generation of smart phones with OLED screens.

Based on past small panel performance, I think it's likely incorrect to conclude that there won't be improvements over the 9Gs mll.

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There had better be for the premium they're asking!
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post #117 of 161 Old 06-10-2012, 12:05 PM
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the BVME250 price is $26.000.00 btw. And this is what you get for that kind of money smile.gif http://www.expandore.com/product/sony/monitor/Broadcast_Evaluation_Monitors/BVM_2.htm

How can the Samsung/LG come anyway near in PQ when size is more that doube and price is less than half confused.gif
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post #118 of 161 Old 06-11-2012, 06:54 AM
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Don't they have one retailing for $6k, too? smile.gif Deals all around

The televisions are at least 3 years away, price wise, before I'd consider buying one. At this point in time, I can't see dropping over $3k for a 50" plus set unless it's the next VT series.

"If you weren't such an ignorant troll, you'd be adorable" -rogo
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post #119 of 161 Old 06-11-2012, 12:31 PM
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Originally Posted by gmarceau View Post

Don't they have one retailing for $6k, too? smile.gif Deals all around
The televisions are at least 3 years away, price wise, before I'd consider buying one. At this point in time, I can't see dropping over $3k for a 50" plus set unless it's the next VT series.

$3K seems to be purchasing the current VT series @ 65" without much effort wink.gif. biggrin.giftongue.gif

There is no difference in HDMI cables. If you can see the picture without visible dropouts or sparklies, the cable is working at 100%. No other cable will display a better version of that picture. You're simply wrong if you think there is a better digital cable than one that is already working. (Oh, and plasma didn't die because of logistics problems, nor does OLED ship in big boxes because it comes from Korea.)
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post #120 of 161 Old 06-12-2012, 04:41 PM
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I would sooner read one post from Rogo than 100 post by most of the others here. His opinion is widely respected here. So your credibility drops to zero when you start referring to him as a troll.

OLED will be a dream come true. But it's pretty much been just that, a dream, for nearly as long as I've frequented avsforum. So you'll have to pardon some of us who've been around awhile if we take a "I'll believe it when I see it on sale at Best Buy" attitude.

Considering the attitude of most who buy tvs, I don't see how anybody sells a set for more than $4-5k unless it also doubles as a personal chef.
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