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post #181 of 405 Old 02-07-2012, 02:01 PM
 
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Originally Posted by rogo View Post

We're sort of off-topic but let me say this, we keep seeking better lightbulbs. Yes, the tried and true incandescents put out nice color and diffuse light, but they are ridiculously inefficient and really have lousy lifespans. The quality of a modern incandescent bulb is horribly low, which is one reason they are so cheap.

We've tried CFs, and they work fine in some places in the home, but as many have noted, they don't love being turned on and off, they tend to output less light then they are supposed to, and most of them are not especially dimmable. So the LED dream lives here. And I think the reasons why relate to the reasons it lives for TVs: Good power efficiency, good color, good control over the brightness, etc. etc.

I'd also like -- in my lightbulbs and TVs -- to know they are going to be highly reliable. That's the kind of thing that only time proves.

Yes, I'm using mostly LEDs now (Philips produces some of the best A19 bulbs, and Nexus Array lighting make some amazing flood lights for down-facing fixtures). The reason I asked about totally enclosed fixtures is because this seems to be a hurdle that has not yet been overcome, and I was wondering if Switch's cooling technique had made it possible. I inquired at their Facebook, but so far no response...so I take it heat dispersion is still an issue.
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post #182 of 405 Old 02-07-2012, 02:20 PM
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Originally Posted by sstephen View Post

I'm not sure what comparisons you can draw about hotspotting, since it looks to me like the LED lamps in pic2 are recessed and the flourescents are not. Hardly an apples to apples comparison.

That's true I suppose, but if you have a company redoing your store lighting, you would think that they would pick the best bulb. LED bulb design is fundamentally different from others, and so even the ones that look like an incandescent, or a spotlight etc. don't project the light out in the same way, so those kind of deadzones seem to be unavoidable right now. That's why we have weird looking bulbs like the Philips EnduraLED to try and improve things, but it's just not the same.

The bulbs aren't bad, and in many cases I would prefer them to CFL (I don't like warm CFL bulbs, the best ones are the high CRI ones around 5000K in my opinion) but I wouldn't use them anywhere that colour rendering or a wide angle is necessary. Considering how expensive they are though, I'd be wanting to replace the important lights first, and there isn't anything suitable for that yet.
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post #183 of 405 Old 02-07-2012, 04:10 PM
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Originally Posted by vinnie97 View Post

Yes, I'm using mostly LEDs now (Philips produces some of the best A19 bulbs, and Nexus Array lighting make some amazing flood lights for down-facing fixtures). The reason I asked about totally enclosed fixtures is because this seems to be a hurdle that has not yet been overcome, and I was wondering if Switch's cooling technique had made it possible. I inquired at their Facebook, but so far no response...so I take it heat dispersion is still an issue.

Yeah, I'm not sure if the cooling they use solves that issue or not. I guess we'll know if they eventually respond to your post. We have an open fixture where we intend to use the Switch bulbs. (I won't use the Philips because they are too weird looking to be seen there while I think the Switch design will look kind of nice).

There is no difference in HDMI cables. If you can see the picture without visible dropouts or sparklies, the cable is working at 100%. No other cable will display a better version of that picture. You're simply wrong if you think there is a better digital cable than one that is already working.
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post #184 of 405 Old 02-07-2012, 04:57 PM
 
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True, the Philips are a bit awkward-looking, though I don't mind. Well, I got a positive response. So long as the room temp is 85 degrees or less, it can be done.

I've heard they're shipping midyear. I'll take 4.

Now, back to CLED.
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post #185 of 405 Old 02-07-2012, 05:51 PM
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Originally Posted by Chronoptimist View Post

The biggest problem for me is, once you buy the LED bulbs you're stuck with them for a long time. They have a high cost, and have a very long lifetime. This would be great if the lighting quality was there, but in five years time or less, I bet we have much better bulbs for less money.

this is an interesting twist in perspective. Looks like something I can feedback to the LED guys

And also looks like heat issue with the packaging is a happy problem after all
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post #186 of 405 Old 02-07-2012, 09:26 PM
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i don't know how much u paid for ur lights,
but i got the CR6 rebadged by HD for around 35$ each off ebay

at 50 000+ hours i'll probably never see the end of any
( unless a few are defectives ..even then i have some spares so )

the recessed housing they come with is just a pure delight, the recessed depth is almost perfect for home use even with high ceilings
the light is near perfect ( i have only had very positive comments about the quality of light in the bathroom they are installed in )
the CREE are no heat issues at all even with closed drywall ceilings
they'll last only a bit less than on my suspended ceilings

then, i've tested the LR6 VS incandescants and halogens for months before commiting to a purchase ( the price back then was not good at ~ 60$/unit ... )
and i can say that they 12-13W LR6 light up a small room just as good as a 100W halogen tube under a glass ornement, and as much as a 60-80W incan bulb would do
( i compared to 60W and 100W ..the 100W was much brighter than the LR6..but not the 60W .. but then the distribution of the light was not the same with a bulb than with the LR6 config ..but who wants the ceiling to be lighted as much as the wall/floors .. )
and the quality of the light is on par or better than any of the highly non efficient standard lamps i've tested

i urge you guys to test the CR6 out ..if you are in the USA ( which i am not .. )
you can get them pretty cheap at HD rebadged ..

but, hey !
back to TOPIC !!!

CLED !!!
wass up with that ?
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post #187 of 405 Old 02-10-2012, 09:49 AM
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post #188 of 405 Old 02-10-2012, 01:00 PM
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nice find!!

i've searched alot lately on the "micro led" size issue and
what i've come up is that many many manufacturer or university
have found ways to make ridiculously small led arrrays,
even some addressable ,under the 100Um range ...
then it gets uip to the ~1 sqmm range for a single rgb pixel
and quite nothing inbetween

but the lack of need for such product might not made it worth to develop
arrays ...that is what sony might have invested on, or found elsewhere


i am trying to work with my chinese contacts in factories to see what is currently possible to get for my 120-150" screen project

could anyone here knowledgeable enough point me to the right direction
in terms of required total light output ??
this is probably the main factor to be able to discuss about custom led arrays
with diff manufacturers ...

i'd like to be able to go higher a bit than required with full white output
as to be able to work with future "bloom or hdr " contents ...
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post #189 of 405 Old 02-10-2012, 01:36 PM
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The screen project has 4K Upscaling (3840 x 2160), right.
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post #190 of 405 Old 02-10-2012, 01:55 PM
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Um, Jin, something like 50 candelas per square meter will far exceed any practical use, I believe. For order of magnitude purposes you might see how that flies.

There is no difference in HDMI cables. If you can see the picture without visible dropouts or sparklies, the cable is working at 100%. No other cable will display a better version of that picture. You're simply wrong if you think there is a better digital cable than one that is already working.
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post #191 of 405 Old 02-10-2012, 03:19 PM
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Jin, here's video on the 4k upscale, which you probably have already seen.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=THpF94kdFE0
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post #192 of 405 Old 02-10-2012, 06:14 PM
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videoray: euh ... nn ...nn .... no ???
nnn ... not yet ??

why are you teasing me with this 4K stuff enh ? why are you doing that ?
you want me to postpone my projects again?
maybe i'll wait like 10 years still
or so before i start actually using my ht room ...

bad bad boy ..

what about 4k ?

the only 4K screen that looks wow right now is that pannasonic 150" something 4K screen ...

wonder how much they'll ask for that ?
i'd actually consider it ... but all in all
i'm only "toying" with options right now
as i would like to wait a bit and see how fast new OLED stuff will move
and if they start working on 100" screens fast enough


ROGO: thanks i'll try and calculate how much output i'll need for pixels

that is output at the screen or input at our eyes ?
with a large screen the light loss is pretty big sitting a 12-15ft
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post #193 of 405 Old 02-10-2012, 06:20 PM
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mmm ROGO ...how can you state candela VS surface ?
i thought that candela was an angle of total light measurement ?

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post #194 of 405 Old 02-10-2012, 11:38 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JinMTVT View Post

mmm ROGO ...how can you state candela VS surface ?
i thought that candela was an angle of total light measurement ?


Hmm, I don't work in these units often.

Chad B.'s guide has foot-lamberts (presumably measured at the screen). Check out the right hand column here.

http://hdtvbychadb.com/services/isf-calibration

But his 65 foot-lamberts apparently = 222 candelas/square meter...

Check this conversion page:

http://www.onlineconversion.com/luminance.htm

There is no difference in HDMI cables. If you can see the picture without visible dropouts or sparklies, the cable is working at 100%. No other cable will display a better version of that picture. You're simply wrong if you think there is a better digital cable than one that is already working.
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post #195 of 405 Old 02-11-2012, 03:19 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JinMTVT View Post

videoray: euh ... nn ...nn .... no ???
nnn ... not yet ??

why are you teasing me with this 4K stuff enh ? why are you doing that ?
you want me to postpone my projects again?
maybe i'll wait like 10 years still
or so before i start actually using my ht room ...

bad bad boy ..

what about 4k ?

the only 4K screen that looks wow right now is that pannasonic 150" something 4K screen ...

wonder how much they'll ask for that ?
i'd actually consider it ... but all in all
i'm only "toying" with options right now
as i would like to wait a bit and see how fast new OLED stuff will move
and if they start working on 100" screens fast enough


ROGO: thanks i'll try and calculate how much output i'll need for pixels

that is output at the screen or input at our eyes ?
with a large screen the light loss is pretty big sitting a 12-15ft

I'm just jealous! I'm wanting for an 80", but wishing for more distribution from the industry to lower the price with more features.
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post #196 of 405 Old 02-11-2012, 07:53 PM
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and you are jealous of ?? i don't understand there ..

i don't see anything interesting above 1080p for the next 5-8years
so don't mind too much about 4K yet

i'll upgrade in 10 years when required


rogo: u are mixing me up just more there ...
i also have not worked really with any "luminance" or ligh energy measures and units yet ...

i do not believe you can convert candelas to an area unit

it seems to be more of a 3d angle measurement

still much to learn i have

now if i could only sell my stupid business and get some free time
to play with interesting projects !!!
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post #197 of 405 Old 02-12-2012, 01:25 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JinMTVT View Post

i do not believe you can convert candelas to an area unit

You can. There is a unit called "candelas per meter squared".

If you click the link I provided above, you can see the relationship between foot-lamberts and candelas per square meter.

Or you can take Wikipedia's word for it, since you seem not to believe my reporting of the same thing:

"A foot-lambert equals 1/π candela per square foot, or 3.426 candela per square meter (the corresponding SI unit)"*
[Source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foot_lambert]

* The International System of Units[1] (abbreviated SI from French: Système international d'unités[2]) is the modern form of the metric system and is generally a system of units of measurement devised around seven base units and the convenience of the number ten.

There is no difference in HDMI cables. If you can see the picture without visible dropouts or sparklies, the cable is working at 100%. No other cable will display a better version of that picture. You're simply wrong if you think there is a better digital cable than one that is already working.
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post #198 of 405 Old 02-12-2012, 07:15 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rogo View Post

You can. There is a unit called "candelas per meter squared".

If you click the link I provided above, you can see the relationship between foot-lamberts and candelas per square meter.

Or you can take Wikipedia's word for it, since you seem not to believe my reporting of the same thing:

"A foot-lambert equals 1/π candela per square foot, or 3.426 candela per square meter (the corresponding SI unit)"*
[Source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foot_lambert]

* The International System of Units[1] (abbreviated SI from French: Système international d'unités[2]) is the modern form of the metric system and is generally a system of units of measurement devised around seven base units and the convenience of the number ten.

I guess with that large of a display and WAF, you will have a great setup.
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post #199 of 405 Old 02-12-2012, 07:22 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by videoray View Post

I guess with that large of a display and WAF, you will have a great setup.

Whoops! To quick one the trigger. That was for Jin.
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post #200 of 405 Old 02-12-2012, 05:55 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JinMTVT View Post

Switchlighting ... never heard of that company before
their bulbs look neats ..but they don't even state CRI ???
and what is the price of those ?

only 25K hours ?


i personally bought 60 CR6 and LR6 by CREE
and i can tell you guys that i don't regret any cents i invested in those ...

been testing with the LR6 for a few years ...installed already a few CR6 in my new home the light quality has been the issue with all "warm white" leds and lighting products for years

the CR6 excell brilliantly ( using many leds of many different colors combined to cover the spectrum as it should be )
and i'd go as far as to say that they even surpasses the halogen lamps i would've used in their places

the good thing.. in my bathroom for example, i use 2 10W units
instead of 4-6 50-60W halogens + the diffuse lighting
( disc shape ) instead of spot lihghting ... wow

i know i might sound like a seller here,
but i'm only trying to spread my contentment with this product ..
i invested quite a sum in those of money and time ( research and testing prior to purchase )

cheers all

Off topic:

Home Deport in MA now sells the CR6 subsidized by the power company for $25. The inch version is $30. I took the lense off one.
There are four white LED's and two red. As they dim they mix in more red and turn off one of the white (blue with phosphor LEDs) to keep them warm.
They looks a bit different than incandescants but I think they are great.

I did the whole house. Since I use indirect lighting in my living room and piano room, I used over 80. So far it dropped my electric bill by $50 per month. It should take 4 years to recoup the cost.


- Rich

Oppo Beta Group

Oppo BDP-105D | Oppo HA-1 | Oppo PM-1 | Parasound A51 | Revel Salon, Voice, Studio | Velodyne HGS-15
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post #201 of 405 Old 02-14-2012, 03:06 PM
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Exactly my thoughts Rich,
At that price , the CR6 are a no brainer.
Unless one wishes to wait for the future techs indefinately.
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post #202 of 405 Old 03-13-2012, 02:13 AM
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For me this screen is more exciting than the OLED displays and actually brings us back to the benefits of the long cancelled SED technology.

Some people prefer the OLED because it is 5mm thin, uses less power e.t.c but I only want display quality. My big thing is always motion. If Cystal LED has the same colour richness and contrast levels as the OLED, then the motion capability makes it the big winner.

Your average panel display loses many lines of resolution during motion. Nothing I have seen or heard about OLED give us confidence that its motion resolution is a big leap over a normal panel technology.

The cancelled SED gave true sub 1ms response time and the few viewing reports and videos of the time hinted at it's advantage there. It seems CLED is of this level or even better.

Sony have skipped updating the high end HX9 range this year. I hope in 2013 they can bring Crystal LED to market.
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post #203 of 405 Old 03-13-2012, 05:44 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Agisthos View Post

Some people prefer the OLED because it is 5mm thin, uses less power e.t.c but I only want display quality. My big thing is always motion. If Cystal LED has the same colour richness and contrast levels as the OLED, then the motion capability makes it the big winner.

Your average panel display loses many lines of resolution during motion. Nothing I have seen or heard about OLED give us confidence that its motion resolution is a big leap over a normal panel technology.

You have been reading the wrong sources, OLED has sub-1ms response times as well.
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post #204 of 405 Old 03-13-2012, 07:11 AM
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True sub 1ms response time. Without afterglow and discharge effect issues, which OLED is still partly effected by? My PC monitors have 2ms reponse and are rubbish with motion.

Every viewing report of OLED is all about colour richness, viewing angles, great clarity, but so far motion is 'great' or as good as current panel technology. For me this is not good enough to pay the premium.
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post #205 of 405 Old 03-13-2012, 07:26 AM
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I have to say at the moment the best motion I have seen in a current panel is the high end Sony range.

Their 'Clear' setting does no manipulation or interpolation. It just adds scanning black frame insertion. I presume this allows the pixels to properly discharge and 'catch up'. Doug B's testing has shown that fast motion, where only 300 lines are usually shown increases to 800-900 using 'Clear'. It gives more detail in motion but without the soap opera effect.

The negative is a much reduced light output, that requires backlight increases to compensate.

I really hope OLED or CLED can give true low response time, not artificially staged figures.
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post #206 of 405 Old 03-13-2012, 08:03 AM
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an oled is still a led. It doesn't decay like a phosphor. Why do you think otherwise?

Scott Stephens
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post #207 of 405 Old 03-13-2012, 08:58 AM
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After living through the specifications debacle for a number for years with LCD, I am waiting for observation reports on how an OLED display deals with fast motion.

There has not been anything like Smackrabbits response about Crystal LED. This could perhaps be because every year, every show display of OLED seems to have a lot of static and slow moving demo loops. I hope it nails it.
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post #208 of 405 Old 03-13-2012, 09:33 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Agisthos; View Post

I have to say at the moment the best motion I have seen in a current panel is the high end Sony range.

Their 'Clear' setting does no manipulation or interpolation. It just adds scanning black frame insertion. I presume this allows the pixels to properly discharge and 'catch up'. Doug B's testing has shown that fast motion, where only 300 lines are usually shown increases to 800-900 using 'Clear'. It gives more detail in motion but without the soap opera effect.

The negative is a much reduced light output, that requires backlight increases to compensate.

I really hope OLED or CLED can give true low response time, not artificially staged figures.

''Clear'' is a mix of black frame insertion and fake frame's ( Motion Interpolation), has a negative impact on PQ which cannot be fully compensated.

Doesn't matter how fast your panel is, motion is always partially source related. There will be source related problems for many years to come.
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post #209 of 405 Old 03-13-2012, 10:00 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Agisthos View Post

After living through the specifications debacle for a number for years with LCD, I am waiting for observation reports on how an OLED display deals with fast motion.

Play UMvC3 on the Vita. That should satisfy your curiosity as to how fast motion looks on an OLED display!
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post #210 of 405 Old 03-13-2012, 10:07 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Agisthos View Post

I have to say at the moment the best motion I have seen in a current panel is the high end Sony range.

Their 'Clear' setting does no manipulation or interpolation. It just adds scanning black frame insertion. I presume this allows the pixels to properly discharge and 'catch up'. Doug B's testing has shown that fast motion, where only 300 lines are usually shown increases to 800-900 using 'Clear'. It gives more detail in motion but without the soap opera effect.

It actually does use motion interpolation, it's just that Sony's implementation does a great job avoiding the soap opera effect that most other sets have. It isn't perfect, but artefacts are rare with the films that I watch. (the exception is anything with subtitles over a panning background)

Clear Plus MotionFlow on my HX900 is good enough that I went from being anti-interpolation, to not being able to watch 24p without it now, after buying Sony's OLED Headset. (had to sell it)

Unfortunately, there's no way to have backlight scanning without interpolation on Sony's LCDs. I'm happy to use MotionFlow with film, but it adds too much lag for gaming.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Agisthos View Post

I really hope OLED or CLED can give true low response time, not artificially staged figures.

It's a true response time, no need to worry about motion handling with OLED.
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