Sony Crystal LED Display - new display tech - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 405 Old 01-09-2012, 08:15 PM - Thread Starter
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Sony has demoed a new type of display they are coining 'Crystal LED'. It literally uses 6+ million LED's (1080p in a traditional RGB sub-pixel format) as the screen. Besides the obvious benefits of LED, this is essentially using the LED casing as the screen, further improving efficiency and contrast versus the traditional method of attaching the display substrate to other layers behind a screen.

Like OLED, this is self-illuminating and should prove to have deep blacks and very low response times.



http://www.theverge.com/2012/1/9/269...nd-impressions
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It's the viewing angles, really. Sony's 55-inch Crystal LED display prototype is an impressive piece, but being able to view clearly from near-90 degree angles, color intact, is quite a spectacle in person. We did our best to recapture it that from the showfloor of Sony's CES 2012 booth, which you can view in the gallery below. We spent some time watching a series of slides and video clips on the device, both in bright light and in a more cavernous unit next to an LCD TV. The colors were more vibrant, particularly the reds, and blacks were truer and darker. The colors, it should be noted, also looked a little bit warmer than its 55-inch BRAVIA LCD counterpart. As far as the actual hardware, there's not much to the eye — square no-nonsense plastic edges. Remember: it's a prototype, after all. It may be the future as Howard Stringer sees it, but it's more evolutionary than revolutionary.

http://www.engadget.com/2012/01/09/s...led-prototype/
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While LG and Samsung trumpet their OLED prototypes, Sony has apparently moved on from the tech, choosing to highlight a new 55-inch Crystal LED prototype at CES 2012. Its display relies on "ultrafine" mounted to each RGB color, equivalent to the number of pixels, which is all affixed directly to the front of the display. We don't have the full details, but so far Sony is claiming 3.5 times contrast, 1.4 times the color gamut and 10 times faster response time than LCDs.

Update: We've seen it in person and we can certainly say it was both bright and beautiful, however it was only displaying still images at a frustratingly slow refresh rate. In other words, it was a prototype, but one we'd love to watch some real videos on some time soon.
Sony Crystal LED prototype eyes-on

http://www.ubergizmo.com/2012/01/son...lay-prototype/
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[CES 2012] Sony has shows its Crystal LED display prototype to the world for the first time. The 55-inch display has a native 1080p resolution, but what makes it so extraordinary is that it uses a combined 6 million of tiny individual LED lights. Why 6 million? A 1080p display has about 2M pixels (2,073,600 to be exact), and each pixel is composed of three sub-pixels (Red, Green and Blue). To build this Crystal LED display, Sony had to manufacture, place and wire those 6M LED lights – that in itself is impressive.The advantage of such a technique is extremely high contrast because there is no notion of backlight here. Crystal LED is a self-emitting display technology, so a black pixel won’t be grey because there is light bleeding out from the backlight. The pixels can also be mounted closer to the display glass, which makes the view angle much better. Finally, because the light doesn’t go through color filters, the color reproduction should be much better than what an LCD would provide for example.

Beyond this amazing feat of technology, the real question is: is it better than OLED? It may be in some aspects. For example, OLED displays are notoriously hard to tweak when it comes to color. Even at manufacturing time, every single display needs to be tested and tuned to provide colors similar to similar displays. That said, the idea of having 6M LED lights seems scary from a manufacturing and economical standpoint – that’s why Sony isn’t committed to making this a product yet. However, Sony did have to show some kind of answer to LG and Samsung 55” OLED TVs, and LG has already committed to make this a “product” that buyers can get “in 2012”.



The may not even be a prototype, but more of a concept tech (ie. unclear whether it will be pursued), but it certainly is interesting. I had always assumed the reason for OLED was both form-factor AND efficiency. If the latter isn't the case, or Sony has solved the problems, this could prove to be a viable competitor. Since there's no backlight, we're really talking about what? A few cm's thickness or so? This isn't a phone, so no one is really going to care about that versus a 5mm display.


Regardless, this is a very interesting demo. Could this be the start of a new LCD/Plasma war? Only this time it will be OLED/LED? If they actually pursue this, I'm curious what sort of manufacturing process is involved? The promise of OLED is will eventually have very cheap fabrication processes. Is this something that can follow suit?






Holy HELL ... check out the viewing angles
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post #2 of 405 Old 01-09-2012, 08:41 PM
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No wonder Sony bailed out on consumer OLED...

This may prove to be cheaper and perform just as well as OLED.
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post #3 of 405 Old 01-09-2012, 09:14 PM - Thread Starter
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Who knows, it could happen.

This is really just a concept though - it isn't even clear if they'll pursue the technology ... but it's certainly an interesting possibility.
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post #4 of 405 Old 01-09-2012, 09:40 PM
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I must be missing something obvious, but how do you manufacture a television containing 6 million LED's cheaply?
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post #5 of 405 Old 01-09-2012, 09:48 PM
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My post in another thread:
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Originally Posted by specuvestor View Post

"Crystal" LED is the ultimate holy Grail for LED ie RGB emitters without LC or color filters.

But issue with LED has always been heat. Wonder what the spec for Sony's LEDs are.

Another question is I don't know how long Sony will be in the TV business and I don't hear much investment into LED TV (NOT backlit) from other players. I'm frankly surprised Stringer still have a job.

I think LED still have chromacity issue.
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post #6 of 405 Old 01-09-2012, 11:18 PM
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It's good to see more way-out thinking on display technology! It'll be interesting to see if this can be turned into a viable display technology. I think there are issues with LEDs shifting colour output throughout their service life? I'm still always glad to hear about new technologies being considered!
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post #7 of 405 Old 01-09-2012, 11:37 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by slacker711 View Post

I must be missing something obvious, but how do you manufacture a television containing 6 million LED's cheaply?

How do you manufacturer it at all? You basically have to fabricate a backplane with 6 million LEDs on it. Only they are inorganic LEDs instead of another kind of LEDs, the organic kind, i.e. OLEDs.

There is no way they can assemble 6 million inorganic LEDs into a TV any more than Samsung or LG can assemble 6 million organic LEDs into a TV.

In other words, this is much ado about nothing unless Sony is also secretly in possession of a way to fab an inorganic LED backplane, which is unlikely. Sorry, Only Not Yet. Again.

There is no difference in HDMI cables. If you can see the picture without visible dropouts or sparklies, the cable is working at 100%. No other cable will display a better version of that picture. You're simply wrong if you think there is a better digital cable than one that is already working. (Oh, and plasma didn't die because of logistics problems, nor does OLED ship in big boxes because it comes from Korea.)
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post #8 of 405 Old 01-09-2012, 11:47 PM
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I bet once all the facts are known, this is something other than RGB LED per subpixel. But, if it turns out Sony somehow figured out how to do it, then wow, this could be the future.
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post #9 of 405 Old 01-10-2012, 12:12 AM
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I think this may just be the evolution of the technology used in the XBR8.
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post #10 of 405 Old 01-10-2012, 01:07 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rogo View Post

How do you manufacturer it at all? You basically have to fabricate a backplane with 6 million LEDs on it. Only they are inorganic LEDs instead of another kind of LEDs, the organic kind, i.e. OLEDs.

I'm not sure they are similar actually. The semicon material layer for different LED colors are very different I thought.

Nonetheless I have diminished hope with Stringer still around. I might change my mind if he gets changed
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post #11 of 405 Old 01-10-2012, 06:21 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RicoRich196 View Post

I think this may just be the evolution of the technology used in the XBR8.

YESSSS!!!!! Evolution of this perhaps (saw at display week 2010):





It's back.......!

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post #12 of 405 Old 01-10-2012, 06:42 AM
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But will it have deeper black levels than a 9G Kuro? If not, then I'm not interested.
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post #13 of 405 Old 01-10-2012, 06:52 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Shawn1 View Post

But will it have deeper black levels than a 9G Kuro? If not, then I'm not interested.

Derp... I see no reason why this display wouldn't have absolute black... no need for an idle charge like a PDP!
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post #14 of 405 Old 01-10-2012, 06:54 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Shawn1 View Post

But will it have deeper black levels than a 9G Kuro? If not, then I'm not interested.

Contrast is "more than measurable limit values"¹ which basically means that the LEDs turn off and it will be "infinite".

People seem to have misunderstood the "3.5 times higher contrast" message. This is "Average of the front of the screen and a diagonal direction (45 degrees), with environmental illuminance of 100 lux" which is to say that it's contrast in a moderately bright roomconditions were LCDs already excel in.


As for the response time, it appears to be a scanning display from video footage and photograhphs such as this:


So while the response time may measure slower than OLED (I assume that it does, as they were quite vague) there may be less persistence on the retina. But really it's far too early to say.


Unfortunately, this seems to have been a bad upload, so only about half of this video actually works right now.
EDIT: Found a working copy on the SGNL YouTube channel.
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post #15 of 405 Old 01-10-2012, 07:32 AM
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Looks like the right LCD is a 55HX929. Bad blooming on the LCD at 0:56. Also the Crystal LED Display looks to have a more reflective screen.

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post #16 of 405 Old 01-10-2012, 07:38 AM
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Seem like this is more of a preview for future models of their BRAVIA TV.

Btw, I'm interested in the 6 million number. So let me get this straight: it's 2 millionish pixels x 3 LEDs per pixel (because of RGB per pixel) = the 6 million?

How about today's flagship LCD TVs? (like the LED backlight ones)

How many LEDs do they use? 2 million at best?
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post #17 of 405 Old 01-10-2012, 07:57 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rgb32 View Post

YESSSS!!!!! Evolution of this perhaps (saw at display week 2010):

It is a big evolution since the slide mentions bonding 300 LED's at a time.

Regardless of the manufacturing though, I dont understand the cost structure. The LED's would need to cost a tenth of a penny each just to get down to $6000 for the LED's alone. Are the LED's fundamentally different because they are so small and dont put out much light?
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post #18 of 405 Old 01-10-2012, 08:26 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Blackraven View Post

Seem like this is more of a preview for future models of their BRAVIA TV.

Btw, I'm interested in the 6 million number. So let me get this straight: it's 2 millionish pixels x 3 LEDs per pixel (because of RGB per pixel) = the 6 million?

How about today's flagship LCD TVs? (like the LED backlight ones)

How many LEDs do they use? 2 million at best?

Yes, this won't be available in the next couple of years.

6 million is indeed 1920x1080x3.

LED backlit displays use around 100-300 local dimming zones. These zones may use 10-20 LEDs each (if I recall correctly, I don't have the time to look it up) but those act as a single unit in a zone. (it's simply that one LED isn't bright/even enough so they use more)
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post #19 of 405 Old 01-10-2012, 08:38 AM
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I really believe that if you compare a technology like WOLED or quantum dot, where the pixel elements are deposited or sprayed on, to a technology where discrete leds are assembled into a structure, the latter will not compete based on cost and difficulty of manufacture.

Seems to me Sony had to show this at CES just to "keep their chin up."

It will be fascinating to see what will actually happen. I'm sure there is a group of techno-heads in Vegas or elsewhere placing sidebets on all of this. I'm only willing to make gentleman's bets.
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post #20 of 405 Old 01-10-2012, 08:51 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rogo View Post

How do you manufacturer it at all? You basically have to fabricate a backplane with 6 million LEDs on it. Only they are inorganic LEDs instead of another kind of LEDs, the organic kind, i.e. OLEDs.

There is no way they can assemble 6 million inorganic LEDs into a TV any more than Samsung or LG can assemble 6 million organic LEDs into a TV.

In other words, this is much ado about nothing unless Sony is also secretly in possession of a way to fab an inorganic LED backplane, which is unlikely. Sorry, Only Not Yet. Again.

Why would you "assemble" 6 million discreet LEDs?

You would need control for each on panel, so would build an LED on glass the same way you build a TFT panel.

I have customers now that are building TFT panels that have Photo Diodes on top of the TFT for each pixel. Right now they are getting about 8 million pixels this way on a roughly 12" by 12" panel with no problems.
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post #21 of 405 Old 01-10-2012, 08:56 AM
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look at those off axis blacks on the CLED.

the 929 is pathetic. bring on OLED and CLED please.
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post #22 of 405 Old 01-10-2012, 10:09 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MaXPL View Post



look at those off axis blacks on the CLED.

the 929 is pathetic. bring on OLED and CLED please.

really, the one on the left looks pretty darn good, just glare
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post #23 of 405 Old 01-10-2012, 10:57 AM
 
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The semicon material layer for different LED colors are very different I thought.

The substrate is silicon. The silicon is doped with Gallium, Arsenic and other trace elements.
Modern LEDs aren't much different from each other.

Quote:


I have customers now that are building TFT panels that have Photo Diodes on top of the TFT for each pixel.

What are the photodiodes for?
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post #24 of 405 Old 01-10-2012, 11:03 AM
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don't believe its the HX929, would be a reeeally stupid move.
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post #25 of 405 Old 01-10-2012, 11:23 AM
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the sony dude called it "last years top of the line" in another video.
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post #26 of 405 Old 01-10-2012, 11:29 AM
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Motion looks very bad, and look at the lines at 1:40 in the Video. It looks strange. The people and the environment looking like a cheaply designed collage.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wdiHJ...layer_embedded
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post #27 of 405 Old 01-10-2012, 12:07 PM
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You can make a judgement on a displays motion based on a video thats being played through your monitor?

To me motion looks identical to the 929, but again, I'm not going to assess motion based on a youtube clip.
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post #28 of 405 Old 01-10-2012, 12:32 PM
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It sounds like this is a Quantum Dot display.

I guess it goes with the Sony push for 4k, a QD display might be able to achieve 4k fairly easy.
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post #29 of 405 Old 01-10-2012, 12:52 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SAM64 View Post

The substrate is silicon. The silicon is doped with Gallium, Arsenic and other trace elements.
Modern LEDs aren't much different from each other.

What are the photodiodes for?

It has been quite a while since I looked at LED's, but I thought that Silicon Carbide and sapphire were the two most common substrates for blue and white LED's. Did I miss a move to silicon?
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post #30 of 405 Old 01-10-2012, 12:53 PM
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I don't think we have any real details, but I cannot imagine that they literally took six million individually fabricated LEDs of such a tiny size, arranged them into a grid, and wired them one by one to a micro controller. Obivously this can be done with larger LEDs as we have had large format LED displays for years now. But at this scale, it seems more likely that they must have developed some process for fabricating the LEDs en masse onto a substrate, much like an OLED is manufactured.

In other words the difference between this and an OLED may boil down to materials employed and semantics. It may be similar, for example, to the differences between a TTL integratged circuit vs. a DTL integrated circuit (or maybe a better analogy would be a CMOS process vs. a purely NMOS process). I.e. they are both designed to accomplish the same task (small scale digital logic), but go about it in a different way.

Just some thoughts.
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