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post #61 of 179 Old 01-13-2012, 10:50 AM
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I'm not sure but you can search Google for PenTile vs RGB

There are plenty of comparison images. But I'm sure how LG arranged the pixels. Maybe they found a way to compensate for definition?
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post #62 of 179 Old 01-13-2012, 10:55 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Raistlin_HT View Post

Define 'advanced'? In this context what does that get you besides cost? Obviously at this point we don't know which performs better, but let's assume they're similar overall.

The rationale behind LG's design is lower costs, higher efficiency, and a longer life (including without color shift). If anything, one could argue LG's design is more advanced. Isn't Samsung's design just an extension of their current RGB AMOLED design? Wouldn't that be considered conventional instead of advanced?

At least Samsung is improving the RGB pixels instead of using white OLED.

White OLED + CF is just a short term solution and consumes more power. Improving true RGB OLEDs can lead to better panel and eventually Stacked OLED.

ATM, I'll take anything over the current LCD/PDP, but once the hype dies down, we would want more and IMO then, Samsung will have better chance.
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post #63 of 179 Old 01-13-2012, 10:55 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Raistlin_HT View Post

Define 'advanced'? In this context what does that get you besides cost? Obviously at this point we don't know which performs better, but let's assume they're similar overall.

The rationale behind LG's design is lower costs, higher efficiency, and a longer life (including without color shift). If anything, one could argue LG's design is more advanced. Isn't Samsung's design just an extension of their current RGB AMOLED design? Wouldn't that be considered conventional instead of advanced?

I agree. And I'm not sure that LG's stacked arrangement (which should lead to sharper pixels) is the same as PenTiles RGBW design.

Also, LG's WOLED should use less power, because the vertical arrangement purportedly incurs less light loss.
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post #64 of 179 Old 01-13-2012, 10:58 AM
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Did Samsung state they would have an OLED set for sale this year?
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post #65 of 179 Old 01-13-2012, 10:58 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nielo TM View Post

Bingo. all three white sub-pixels won't remain unifyed for long. Wish there's some data on the actual decay rate

They are using PHOLED for the green and red, and FOLED for the blue. The rationale is blue FOLED's do not age nearly as fast as the blue PHOLED's.

However, they do consume more power. In order to combat this and loss from the color filter substrate, they decided to go with a RBGW quad sub-pixel design for the color filter. The extra white sub-pixel allows them to use a lower drive voltage to achieve the same luma than if they had went with RGB. Another advantage is the lower drive voltage means even slower pixel aging.

With that in mind, it's actually possible this design uses less or similar overall power versus Samsung's design? Time will tell.
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post #66 of 179 Old 01-13-2012, 11:01 AM
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Originally Posted by taichi4 View Post

I agree. And I'm not sure that LG's stacked arrangement (which should lead to sharper pixels) is the same as PenTiles RGBW design.

Also, LG's WOLED should use less power, because the vertical arrangement purportedly incurs less light loss.

To my knowledge this is not a pentile arrangement - I believe the sub-pixels are all the same size.

There have been some diagrams of the design (I'd dig them up, but I'm about to head to a meeting). Granted, it's unclear if the diagrams are actually to scale or just meant to show the high-level layout.
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post #67 of 179 Old 01-13-2012, 11:01 AM
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True

Would love to get both of these and have a looks over. At least I can get some info out the Samsung engineers during the next meeting, but it's nearly impossible with LG.
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post #68 of 179 Old 01-13-2012, 11:02 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Raistlin_HT View Post

They are using PHOLED for the green and red, and FOLED for the blue. The rationale is blue FOLED's do not age nearly as fast as the blue PHOLED's.

However, they do consume more power. In order to combat this and loss from the color filter substrate, they are decided to go with a RBGW quad sub-pixel design for the color filter. The extra white sub-pixel allows them to use a lower drive voltage to achieve the same luma than if they had went with RGB. Another advantage is the lower drive voltage means even slower pixel aging.

With that in mind, it's actually possible this design uses less or similar overall power versus Samsung's design? Time will tell.

Hey Raistlin, it's me Tasslehoff Burfoot
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post #69 of 179 Old 01-13-2012, 11:03 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Raistlin_HT View Post

To my knowledge this is not a pentile arrangement - I believe the sub-pixels are all the same size.

There have been some diagrams of the design (I'd dig them up, but I'm about to head to a meeting). Granted, it's unclear if the diagrams are actually to scale or just meant to show the high-level layout.

PenTile RGBW all have same sized sub-pixel, but not arranged in liner strip form.
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post #70 of 179 Old 01-13-2012, 11:16 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nielo TM View Post

At least Samsung is improving the RGB pixels instead of using white OLED.

It's really the companies Samsung sources the PHOLED tech from that are improving things. Regardless, the question is have they advanced enough to be cost efficient? To not have color shift from uneven aging (blue)

Quote:


White OLED + CF is just a short term solution and consumes more power. Improving true RGB OLEDs can lead to better panel and eventually Stacked OLED.

Sure an RGB CF would, however a RGBW CF would need lower drive voltage. We really don't know how much it uses. Could be more than Samsung, could be similar, could be less.

Quote:


ATM, I'll take anything over the current LCD/PDP, but once the hype dies down, we would want more and IMO then, Samsung will have better chance.

If LG can create these more cheaply and it doesn't have any glaring IQ flaws ... who do you think TV manufacturers would prefer to use as an OEM? Neither company is going to hold onto these forever, they're going to eventually supply them to others.
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post #71 of 179 Old 01-13-2012, 11:17 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jrobitaille23 View Post

hey raistlin, it's me tasslehoff burfoot

*hides pouches*




Quote:
Originally Posted by Nielo TM View Post

PenTile RGBW all have same sized sub-pixel, but not arranged in liner strip form.

Ah thanks. In that case though, I wouldn't expect obvious artifacts from it? The problem the Samsung Super AMOLED's have is the differing sub-pixels sizes to my knowledge.

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post #72 of 179 Old 01-13-2012, 11:22 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nielo TM View Post

True

Would love to get both of these and have a looks over. At least I can get some info out the Samsung engineers during the next meeting, but it's nearly impossible with LG.


Very revealing. No wonder you showed up a few days ago, and declared the Samsung OLED to be superior, at the same time that you had to be directed to go read back, to get up to speed about what information was currently available about the LG Panel.

You can knock it off now.
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post #73 of 179 Old 01-13-2012, 11:24 AM
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Originally Posted by JukeBox360 View Post

Did Samsung state they would have an OLED set for sale this year?

^^^^ Yay or Nay?
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post #74 of 179 Old 01-13-2012, 11:26 AM
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calm down I haven't got the info yet. The meeting uasually takes place in March/April. I can ask as much into as I like.

But LG is though. It's diffcult to get in touch with the actual engineers.
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post #75 of 179 Old 01-13-2012, 11:28 AM
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Originally Posted by Nielo TM View Post

calm down I haven't got the info yet. The meeting uasually takes place in March/April. I can ask as much into as I like.

But LG is though. It's diffcult to get in touch with the actual engineers.

Well I know LG is. I just didn't hear squat about Samsung making them. Which is why I didn't understand the big debate between the two of them.
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post #76 of 179 Old 01-13-2012, 11:29 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Raistlin_HT View Post

*hides pouches*





Ah thanks. In that case though, I wouldn't expect obvious artifacts from it? The problem the Samsung Super AMOLED's have is the differing sub-pixels sizes to my knowledge.


The RGBW does image image quality because it if didn't all of todays's LCDs would be based on RGBW format. ATM, RGBW is only used in mobile applications.

The OLED image above is also from the Moible Screen as far as I'm aware. The green is far brighter so its can be smaller than red and blue. Not sure how the 55" is arranged
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post #77 of 179 Old 01-13-2012, 11:36 AM
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Originally Posted by JukeBox360 View Post

^^^^ Yay or Nay?

http://www.theverge.com/2012/1/9/269...d-half-of-year
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post #78 of 179 Old 01-13-2012, 11:38 AM
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Originally Posted by Nielo TM View Post

The RGBW does image image quality because it if didn't all of todays's LCDs would be based on RGBW format. ATM, RGBW is only used in mobile applications.

Actually I suspect the reason it isn't used is because it would destroy black levels in an LCD. Even though by the time light escapes screens it's down to something like 5% of the original luma IIRC ... it still can't adequately block the light to produce deep blacks. Wouldn't increasing the % of light that makes it through only further raise the black levels?
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post #79 of 179 Old 01-13-2012, 11:50 AM
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That's doesn't seem to be the case with existing Pentile displays. The extra pixel would be a standard pixel without any color filter. The white pixels don’t have to be the same size as the rest either.

Do you think Sharp would have been better off embedding white pixel instead of the ridicules yellow (even though it did improve energy effichency).
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post #80 of 179 Old 01-13-2012, 12:01 PM
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Nice! Thank you. Seems Samsung didn't do to great at CES compared to LG.
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post #81 of 179 Old 01-13-2012, 12:18 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nielo TM View Post

PenTile RGBW all have same sized sub-pixel, but not arranged in liner strip form.

They are the same size but Pentile has two subpixels per pixel.

http://www.nouvoyance.com/technology.html

I dont think that this is the approach that LG/Kodak has taken in the past and the press release seems to imply that LG has four subpixels per pixel.

Who knows though? The fact that the LG has been well received at CES is just the first hurdle. I think it is likely that there are some compromises involved with going with RGBW (beyond power consumption) but we'll probably have to wait for the formal reviews.
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post #82 of 179 Old 01-13-2012, 12:45 PM
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Ah I see. Wonder if that explain the soft image

Lets find someone bold enough to take a few macro shots
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post #83 of 179 Old 01-13-2012, 12:53 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nielo TM View Post

That's doesn't seem to be the case with existing Pentile displays. The extra pixel would be a standard pixel without any color filter. The white pixels don’t have to be the same size as the rest either.

That's what I'm saying though ... the fact there isn't a color filter means a higher % of the backlight is coming through ... which is why I'd expect black levels will suffer. It's also, I suspect, why we don't see actual TV's using them. For a phone, accuracy isn't exactly the primary concern. You want something bright that does white well.

As for not needing to be the same size, I'm asking isn't that part of the IQ issue? Doesn't that cause even more aliasing than just using the checkerboard layout?




I guess this discussion is kind of moot since we don't even know what layout this uses? Or has it been confirmed? Here's a diagram of what LG/Kodak did:



http://www.oled-display.net/backgrou...tv-technology/

It appears to be a traditional horizontal pixel layout ... not pentile.

Here are the claimed benefits versus a traditional all PHOLED RGB AMOLED
  • No more Yellow push
  • Even Color wear
  • 100,000 hr. lifetime
  • Exceeds television standards for color gamut
  • Power consumption 50% that of AMOLED tech
  • Easier/Cheaper to manufacture via Kodaks printing process



Quote:


Do you think Sharp would have been better off embedding white pixel instead of the ridicules yellow (even though it did improve energy effichency).

Maybe - assuming I'm wrong about black levels. While it's cool they can increase the gamut using a secondary, there isn't anything that uses it (other than some camcorders) ... broadcasts and recorded media don't. So why bother since it appears to mess up color accuracy?

As a side note - Quattrons actually use a traditional horizontal pixel layout, not pentile. So there's no reason to assume the LG has to use pentile.

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post #84 of 179 Old 01-13-2012, 01:07 PM
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Originally Posted by Nielo TM View Post

Ah I see. Wonder if that explain the soft image

Lets find someone bold enough to take a few macro shots

This is the best close-up I could find of the LG OLED subpixels:



If we imagine a blue and a white subpixel in the spaces between the red and green subpixels, it looks like an RGBW stripe where all subpixels have the same size, without any subsampling.
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post #85 of 179 Old 01-13-2012, 01:12 PM
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This is the best close-up I could find of the LG OLED subpixels:


I'm confused ... where is the blue and white?
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post #86 of 179 Old 01-13-2012, 01:17 PM
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Originally Posted by Raistlin_HT View Post

I'm confused ... where is the blue and white?

They are off when displaying yellow.
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post #87 of 179 Old 01-13-2012, 01:27 PM
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Pentile has the same pixel arrangement as traditional panels (RGB and W evenly spaced horizontally).

But they are just adressed differently.
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post #88 of 179 Old 01-13-2012, 01:33 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ferro View Post

They are off when displaying yellow.

Nice find. Yes it does seem evenly spaced. I'm not sure of the pixels are 1:1? What do you think?

Normal PenTile displays have rectangular pixels spit half to make square (2 pixels adressed instade of 3/4).


http://asia.cnet.com/i/r/2011/crave/...ew_600x450.jpg
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post #89 of 179 Old 01-13-2012, 01:49 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nielo TM View Post

Nice find. Yes it does seem evenly spaced. I'm not sure of the pixels are 1:1? What do you think?

Normal PenTile displays have rectangular pixels spit half to make square (2 pixels adressed instade of 3/4).


http://asia.cnet.com/i/r/2011/crave/...ew_600x450.jpg

The pixels are square. 52x52 (image)pixels in the enlargement. I guess that proves that there is no subsampling or other horrible trickery going on, which is good news.
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post #90 of 179 Old 01-13-2012, 01:56 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Raistlin_HT View Post

....As a side note - Quattrons actually use a traditional horizontal pixel layout, not pentile. So there's no reason to assume the LG has to use pentile.


From everything I've read, the LG is not a horizontal RGBW, but is a vertical stack of RGB which terminates in white. This is why it's brighter than a horizontal arrangement, which incurs light loss. The stacked arrangement essentially focuses or concentrates the light.
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