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post #91 of 179 Old 01-13-2012, 12:57 PM
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Excellent new indeed !


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post #92 of 179 Old 01-13-2012, 01:16 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by taichi4 View Post

From everything I've read, the LG is not a horizontal RGBW, but is a vertical stack of RGB which terminates in white. This is why it's brighter than a horizontal arrangement, which incurs light loss. The stacked arrangement essentially focuses or concentrates the light.

As you can see from image posted by ferro the subpixels are placed horizontally


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post #93 of 179 Old 01-13-2012, 01:18 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Raistlin_HT View Post


As a side note - Quattrons actually use a traditional horizontal pixel layout, not pentile. So there's no reason to assume the LG has to use pentile.


Pentile subpixel placement is the same but adressed differently (just like the Quattrons). Shap uses Delta adressing.


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post #94 of 179 Old 01-13-2012, 02:21 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ferro View Post

They are off when displaying yellow.

I meant where would they fit? It only looks like there's room for blue?




Quote:
Originally Posted by Nielo TM View Post

Pentile has the same pixel arrangement as traditional panels (RGB and W evenly spaced horizontally).

But they are just adressed differently.

If matters the type as far as I know. Some are not evenly spaced (if they're using different sub-pixel sizes).

Even if they are using the same sub-pixel shape/spacing, the sub-pixel arrangement isn't the same though. Aren't the rows offset making a checkerboard pattern (see the picture below)? Whereas non-pentile makes the sub-pixels appear to be in columns of colors (like Quattrons)?

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post #95 of 179 Old 01-13-2012, 02:26 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by taichi4 View Post

From everything I've read, the LG is not a horizontal RGBW, but is a vertical stack of RGB which terminates in white. This is why it's brighter than a horizontal arrangement, which incurs light loss. The stacked arrangement essentially focuses or concentrates the light.

Sorry ... I'm referring to the color filter arrangement (which essentially creates sub-pixels out of the white OLEDs in so-far-as color generation).
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post #96 of 179 Old 01-13-2012, 03:11 PM
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Originally Posted by Raistlin_HT View Post


If matters the type as far as I know. Some are not evenly spaced (if they're using different sub-pixel sizes)

IT is done becuase how the pixels are adressed.

Sharp lay their pixel in Strip form and adress it dela form.

But it seems the LG has 4 pixels in strip form (1:1) and adressed normally. Guess we have to see it action to find out if there's issue.

But TBH, no one will care about it ATM. But once the hype died down and OLED becomes norm, then ya


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post #97 of 179 Old 01-13-2012, 04:08 PM
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a little skeptical about samsung having 55" oled set this year. as noted by cnet,
lg has model number and release date. that article in the verve lacks that critical information.

probably why lg and not sammy won best of ces.

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post #98 of 179 Old 01-13-2012, 04:19 PM
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Hopefully LG provides full set of calabration tools. Their 2011 TVs lacked 3D CMS


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post #99 of 179 Old 01-13-2012, 04:25 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Raistlin_HT View Post

Sorry ... I'm referring to the color filter arrangement (which essentially creates sub-pixels out of the white OLEDs in so-far-as color generation).

Ah. Got it. Now I see how filters might soften the image.
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post #100 of 179 Old 01-13-2012, 04:26 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Raistlin_HT View Post

I meant where would they fit? It only looks like there's room for blue?

I see a red subpixel, a black space for a blue or white subpixel, a green subpixel, and another black space for a blue or white subpixel.
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post #101 of 179 Old 01-13-2012, 04:32 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by taichi4 View Post

Ah. Got it. Now I see how filters might soften the image.

Filters don't soften the image . They are edge to edge transparent filters that only allow certain frequency to pass through.


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post #102 of 179 Old 01-13-2012, 05:32 PM
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I'm sorry, we need to be crystal clear:

1) LG is not using white OLED. They are making white OLED using R G an B OLED layers deposited on top of each other. Period. There are no pixels in the OLED layer at all. Whether or not a single white OLED layer is viable is irrelevant, LG is not doing it. (I suspect it's not at all viable.

There is a TFT backplane in place to control the white OLED at the sub-pixel level. There are 4 sub-pixels for each pixel.

2) The pixels you see are created solely by the TFT backplane controlling the white sub-pixels which are aligned against traditional LCD color filters. The only difference between the OLED and a traditional LCD is that white itself is allowed to escape in addition to the R G and B. This allows for more brightness.

So, again, 4 white sub-pixels per pixel. But they aren't patterned the way an RGB OLED requires. The patterning is handled by the color filters, solely.

This is not any kind of "transitional technology". It is going to be significantly easier to manufacture than whatever Samsung ends up doing. It might prove slightly inferior in absolute performance and it will prove slightly inferior in power consumption. But since we are talking TVs and not mobile phones, and since the power consumption will still be lower than any LCD of comparable size, none of that will much matter.

The reality is that LG is already really good at making TFT backplanes and already really good at making color filters. Instead of putting an LCD grid in there, they are going to simply vacuum deposit the three layers of OLED material and excite the "sandwich" every time they need any of the sub-pixels turned on. (Again, if the blue has a shorter life, this design does nothing to mitigate that; I'm sorry.)

Oh, and since LG's display currently is better than Samsung's...

There is no difference in HDMI cables. If you can see the picture without visible dropouts or sparklies, the cable is working at 100%. No other cable will display a better version of that picture. You're simply wrong if you think there is a better digital cable than one that is already working. (Oh, and plasma didn't die because of logistics problems, nor does OLED ship in big boxes because it comes from Korea.)
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post #103 of 179 Old 01-13-2012, 05:51 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rogo View Post

I'm sorry, we need to be crystal clear:

1) LG is not using white OLED. They are making white OLED using R G an B OLED layers deposited on top of each other. Period....

A point I've reiterated on this and other threads. White is the output of the stacked RGB oleds.
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post #104 of 179 Old 01-13-2012, 06:01 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rogo View Post

I'm sorry, we need to be crystal clear:

1) LG is not using white OLED. They are making white OLED using R G an B OLED layers deposited on top of each other. Period. There are no pixels in the OLED layer at all. Whether or not a single white OLED layer is viable is irrelevant, LG is not doing it. (I suspect it's not at all viable.

There is a TFT backplane in place to control the white OLED at the sub-pixel level. There are 4 sub-pixels for each pixel.

2) The pixels you see are created solely by the TFT backplane controlling the white sub-pixels which are aligned against traditional LCD color filters. The only difference between the OLED and a traditional LCD is that white itself is allowed to escape in addition to the R G and B. This allows for more brightness.

So, again, 4 white sub-pixels per pixel. But they aren't patterned the way an RGB OLED requires. The patterning is handled by the color filters, solely.

This is not any kind of "transitional technology". It is going to be significantly easier to manufacture than whatever Samsung ends up doing. It might prove slightly inferior in absolute performance and it will prove slightly inferior in power consumption. But since we are talking TVs and not mobile phones, and since the power consumption will still be lower than any LCD of comparable size, none of that will much matter.

The reality is that LG is already really good at making TFT backplanes and already really good at making color filters. Instead of putting an LCD grid in there, they are going to simply vacuum deposit the three layers of OLED material and excite the "sandwich" every time they need any of the sub-pixels turned on. (Again, if the blue has a shorter life, this design does nothing to mitigate that; I'm sorry.)

Oh, and since LG's display currently is better than Samsung's...

Now it all makes perfect sense


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post #105 of 179 Old 01-13-2012, 06:04 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ferro View Post

I see a red subpixel, a black space for a blue or white subpixel, a green subpixel, and another black space for a blue or white subpixel.

I suppose you're right ... maybe the greens are just blooming a bit in the picture. What was throwing me off is the one gap looks notably larger than the other.
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post #106 of 179 Old 01-13-2012, 06:40 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rogo View Post

I'm sorry, we need to be crystal clear:

1) LG is not using white OLED. They are making white OLED using R G an B OLED layers deposited on top of each other. Period. There are no pixels in the OLED layer at all. Whether or not a single white OLED layer is viable is irrelevant, LG is not doing it. (I suspect it's not at all viable.

There is a TFT backplane in place to control the white OLED at the sub-pixel level. There are 4 sub-pixels for each pixel.

2) The pixels you see are created solely by the TFT backplane controlling the white sub-pixels which are aligned against traditional LCD color filters. The only difference between the OLED and a traditional LCD is that white itself is allowed to escape in addition to the R G and B. This allows for more brightness.

So, again, 4 white sub-pixels per pixel. But they aren't patterned the way an RGB OLED requires. The patterning is handled by the color filters, solely.

This is not any kind of "transitional technology". It is going to be significantly easier to manufacture than whatever Samsung ends up doing. It might prove slightly inferior in absolute performance and it will prove slightly inferior in power consumption. But since we are talking TVs and not mobile phones, and since the power consumption will still be lower than any LCD of comparable size, none of that will much matter.

The reality is that LG is already really good at making TFT backplanes and already really good at making color filters. Instead of putting an LCD grid in there, they are going to simply vacuum deposit the three layers of OLED material and excite the "sandwich" every time they need any of the sub-pixels turned on. (Again, if the blue has a shorter life, this design does nothing to mitigate that; I'm sorry.)

Oh, and since LG's display currently is better than Samsung's...

+1 what we are able to see is the color filter.

When we simplify LG/ Kodak OLED as WOLED it do become misleading

What I'm not so sure is if Sammy's implementation of individual emitter has no perceivable advantage when implemented properly.
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post #107 of 179 Old 01-13-2012, 06:47 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rogo View Post

I'm sorry, we need to be crystal clear:

1) LG is not using white OLED. They are making white OLED using R G an B OLED layers deposited on top of each other. Period. There are no pixels in the OLED layer at all. Whether or not a single white OLED layer is viable is irrelevant, LG is not doing it. (I suspect it's not at all viable.

There is a TFT backplane in place to control the white OLED at the sub-pixel level. There are 4 sub-pixels for each pixel.

Yeah, unless something has changed recently ... there really is no such thing as a white LED (at least commercially). For inorganic LED, it's usually a blue LED with a yellow phosphor for cost reasons. Higher end products use RGB (green is expensive IIRC). For organic LED, RGB is the typical method.

When you say "There are no pixels in the OLED layer at all" though, I'm not sure how that would work. The TFT needs to be able to address each white pixel with a luma value - otherwise how would this work? I assume the sub-pixel layers are in series so you don't need to individually control voltage. Of course that's assuming the sub-pixels' voltage vs luma ramps will allow that. Either way, they need to individually address the white (RGB) 'pixel' underneath each 4-color filter grouping.

I suppose this may just be a semantics issue. Do you consider each individually addressable unit in the OLED layers a sub-pixel ... and the totality of the white light emitted through the top a pixel? Similarly, do you call each color filter element a sub-pixel ... and each group of 4 a pixel? I guess that's where I'm coming from.

Quote:


It might prove slightly inferior in absolute performance and it will prove slightly inferior in power consumption. But since we are talking TVs and not mobile phones, and since the power consumption will still be lower than any LCD of comparable size, none of that will much matter.

I'm not sure either case is inherently true. In terms of performance, it's quite likely this will actually have less color shift over time. From what I understand the blue OLED layer is actually using FOLEDs instead of PHOLEDs. They age similar to green and red PHOLEDs ... and to my knowledge the Samsung panels will be a traditional PHOLED RGB design.

As for power consumption, the LG design has 3 things going against it. The layering of OLED's will lose some brightness ... FOLEDs use more power (blue layer) ... and color filters lose some brightness.

However they are using a RGBW arrangement for the color filter, which significantly increases output. Is it enough to match or beat the Samsungs? I don't know, but I'm not sure it will automatically be inferior. As you said though, either way it will be less than LCD which is good enough for most people.
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post #108 of 179 Old 01-13-2012, 07:16 PM
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Need to hit the bed before I can dive into this.

Now that OLED is one step closer to reality, the Transparent OLED TV is no longer just a dream.










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post #109 of 179 Old 01-13-2012, 09:24 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by specuvestor View Post

+1 what we are able to see is the color filter.

When we simplify LG/ Kodak OLED as WOLED it do become misleading

Very.
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What I'm not so sure is if Sammy's implementation of individual emitter has no perceivable advantage when implemented properly.

It might have one. But I have two important observations:

1) Currently, it has no advantage I can detect.
2) Even if there is some small advantage, I doubt it's enough to matter in the marketplace. The Samsung might be slightly better -- emphasis on might -- but never enough to win on "better-ness".

Quote:
Originally Posted by taichi4 View Post

A point I've reiterated on this and other threads. White is the output of the stacked RGB oleds.

Yes, and you are correct. I clarified the whole chain because the thread has a lot of misleading statements. Not all of the statements, however, were misleading.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Raistlin_HT View Post

Yeah, unless something has changed recently ... there really is no such thing as a white LED (at least commercially). For inorganic LED, it's usually a blue LED with a yellow phosphor for cost reasons. Higher end products use RGB (green is expensive IIRC). For organic LED, RGB is the typical method.

Sounds reasonable.
Quote:


When you say "There are no pixels in the OLED layer at all" though, I'm not sure how that would work. The TFT needs to be able to address each white pixel with a luma value - otherwise how would this work? I assume the sub-pixel layers are in series so you don't need to individually control voltage. Of course that's assuming the sub-pixels' voltage vs luma ramps will allow that. Either way, they need to individually address the white (RGB) 'pixel' underneath each 4-color filter grouping.

Each visible pixel has four white sub pixels. You control voltage on the "red" sub pixel when you need to. The "red" sub pixel is the white sub pixel that is below the red section of the color filter. But when you control that, it turns on all the layers of OLED. That's why red is in quote marks. And, yes, I'm sure they are in series and it's designed that if you want say "red 162" (or the 162nd value of red on the way to 255), you apply enough voltage to the stack, the white lights up, it shines through a little tiny bit of red color filter and you go from there. Meantime, the blue 219 and the green 64 are also shining through. And the white 111 is joining them to provide extra illumination in that stop. Of course, this is just an example.
Quote:


I suppose this may just be a semantics issue. Do you consider each individually addressable unit in the OLED layers a sub-pixel ... and the totality of the white light emitted through the top a pixel? Similarly, do you call each color filter element a sub-pixel ... and each group of 4 a pixel? I guess that's where I'm coming from.

So let me try again.

Sub pixel = stack of R + G + B OLED + a little tiny piece of color filter in only one color (or clear) [the stack is aligned precisely behind whichever piece of color filter the sub pixel is representing]
Pixel = 4 stacks of R + G +B OLED + a tiny piece of red color filter + a tiny piece of green color filter + a tiny piece of blue color filter + a tiny piece of clear front glass
Quote:


I'm not sure either case is inherently true. In terms of performance, it's quite likely this will actually have less color shift over time. From what I understand the blue OLED layer is actually using FOLEDs instead of PHOLEDs. They age similar to green and red PHOLEDs ... and to my knowledge the Samsung panels will be a traditional PHOLED RGB design.

Yes, this needs to be specifically clarified. LG is using a fluorescent blue. It is designed to have good aging characteristics. My point is this, however: Nothing about stacking the colors changes the underlying issue. If any of those colors does age differently, the display will color shift just like an RGB one. People are mistakenly assuming that the stacking of the colors is magically solving the differential aging problem and it isn't. Now, the fact that LG can use a different blue than Samsung might well help with aging, but let's just agree that's a second-order effect.
Quote:


As for power consumption, the LG design has 3 things going against it. The layering of OLED's will lose some brightness ... FOLEDs use more power (blue layer) ... and color filters lose some brightness.

However they are using a RGBW arrangement for the color filter, which significantly increases output. Is it enough to match or beat the Samsungs? I don't know, but I'm not sure it will automatically be inferior. As you said though, either way it will be less than LCD which is good enough for most people.

If either the Samsung or LG reaches market with the brightness being used on the show floor, you will need sunglasses to watch them. I am not worried about brightness or power consumption.

The better 55" LCDs are already using about as much power as a light bulb. I am a legitimate environmentalist. We have to stop pretending getting TVs down from 1 light bulb to .7 light bulbs is actually an important change.

Incidentally, I'm confident later generations of OLED will use somewhat less power.

(Again, mobile phones are another matter. Ditto tablets and laptops. For those, Samsung's RGB design is superior and already approaching cost parity with LCD.)

There is no difference in HDMI cables. If you can see the picture without visible dropouts or sparklies, the cable is working at 100%. No other cable will display a better version of that picture. You're simply wrong if you think there is a better digital cable than one that is already working. (Oh, and plasma didn't die because of logistics problems, nor does OLED ship in big boxes because it comes from Korea.)
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post #110 of 179 Old 01-13-2012, 10:02 PM
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Yes, this needs to be specifically clarified. LG is using a fluorescent blue. It is designed to have good aging characteristics. My point is this, however: Nothing about stacking the colors changes the underlying issue. If any of those colors does age differently, the display will color shift just like an RGB one. People are mistakenly assuming that the stacking of the colors is magically solving the differential aging problem and it isn't. Now, the fact that LG can use a different blue than Samsung might well help with aging, but let's just agree that's a second-order effect.

I think you are going to need to cite a source for this because it contradicts everything I have read on the subject. Here is one source that lays it out.

Beginning of page 121 talks about color stability of a white OLED versus its components.

http://books.google.com/books?id=5WR...ity%22&f=false

It is also definitely possible to use various architectures other than a straight RGB stack to create white.
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post #111 of 179 Old 01-14-2012, 12:59 AM
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Originally Posted by slacker711 View Post

I think you are going to need to cite a source for this because it contradicts everything I have read on the subject. Here is one source that lays it out.

...

It is also definitely possible to use various architectures other than a straight RGB stack to create white.

I spoke with a rep from the company supplier the OLED materials to LG at some length. I doubt he was mistaken.

There is no difference in HDMI cables. If you can see the picture without visible dropouts or sparklies, the cable is working at 100%. No other cable will display a better version of that picture. You're simply wrong if you think there is a better digital cable than one that is already working. (Oh, and plasma didn't die because of logistics problems, nor does OLED ship in big boxes because it comes from Korea.)
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Originally Posted by mr. wally View Post

a little skeptical about samsung having 55" oled set this year. as noted by cnet,
lg has model number and release date. that article in the verve lacks that critical information.

probably why lg and not sammy won best of ces.

The model number for Samsung OLED TV is mentioned in this link:

http://www.oled-display.net/samsung-...ward-from-cea/
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post #113 of 179 Old 01-14-2012, 02:10 AM
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Originally Posted by rogo View Post

People are mistakenly assuming that the stacking of the colors is magically solving the differential aging problem and it isn't. Now, the fact that LG can use a different blue than Samsung might well help with aging, but let's just agree that's a second-order effect.

You know the saying that "magic" is just science that you don't yet understand? From the book linked by Slacker711:

Quote:


In terms of the white OLED, even though the blue layer separately is very unstable, the two-layer white OLED, using the blue and yellow layers adjacent to each other, provide a very stable device.

(LG is not using yellow of course, but the principle remains)

I'm chalking one up for LG. LG's White OLED relative advantages:

* Stable colors
* Long lifetime
* Low production costs

Samsung's pure RGB OLED relative advantages:

* Power efficiency
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post #114 of 179 Old 01-14-2012, 04:05 AM
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Are these oled displays confirmed 100% to hit market this year, I dont follow what manufacturers say closely, but I thought I would ask on here. Or is this wishful thinking on the part of samsung and lg?
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post #115 of 179 Old 01-14-2012, 04:29 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Murilo View Post

Are these oled displays confirmed 100% to hit market this year, I dont follow what manufacturers say closely, but I thought I would ask on here. Or is this wishful thinking on the part of samsung and lg?

This is what they have said, I don't think there is more detailed info about release dates:

LG:




Samsung:

http://www.theverge.com/2012/1/9/269...d-half-of-year
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post #116 of 179 Old 01-14-2012, 05:14 AM
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HD GURU Best In Show pick.

http://hdguru.com/the-hd-guru-ces-20...066/#more-7066


"Best In Show: LG 55EM9600 55″ OLED

*

OLED (organic light emitting diodes) is the first new big screen flat panel tech since 1997. *The LG 55EM9600 delivers everything big screen OLED promises, vivid color, fantastic contrast, 180 degree viewing angle and pitch black blacks. All coming from a 4mm thick design the OLED image beat out everything else at CES.

The LG 55-Inch 55EM9600 has two configurations. One is a table stand version with the speakers and electronics built into the base. The other, a wall mount version with the electronics and downward firing speakers housed within a backpack that sits between the wall and the screen. This OLED is a full featured HDTV with 1080p resolution, Smart TV with voice and gesture remote and 3D. Expect to see it yourself in Q3, at a priced to be announced."
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post #117 of 179 Old 01-14-2012, 06:41 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rogo View Post

I spoke with a rep from the company supplier the OLED materials to LG at some length. I doubt he was mistaken.

Weird. I really dont understand why that would be the case. The idea that WOLED's provide color stability is pretty widely reported.

I wonder if LG will give some details about their architecture at SID.
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post #118 of 179 Old 01-14-2012, 07:11 AM
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Like the sugar seller telling you how Coke is made?

Quote:
Originally Posted by rogo View Post

I spoke with a rep from the company supplier the OLED materials to LG at some length. I doubt he was mistaken.


buytme
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post #119 of 179 Old 01-14-2012, 07:13 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rogo View Post

I spoke with a rep from the company supplier the OLED materials to LG at some length. I doubt he was mistaken.

Quote:
Originally Posted by slacker711 View Post

Weird. I really dont understand why that would be the case. The idea that WOLED's provide color stability is pretty widely reported.

I wonder if LG will give some details about their architecture at SID.

It's not that weird, because besides the materials, it is primarily the architecture that provides the stability. From the book you linked:

Quote:


In terms of the white OLED, even though the blue layer separately is very unstable, the two-layer white OLED, using the blue and yellow layers adjacent to each other, provide a very stable device. [...]

Because of the energy transfer from blue to yellow emitters, both emitters decrease at the same rate and the ratio of blue to yellow remains the same. This provides a stable color as a function of aging time. This is one of the important considerations for a full-color display and minimizes the effects on color balance and gray scale for the RGB and RGBW formats.

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post #120 of 179 Old 01-14-2012, 09:09 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nielo TM View Post

Pentile subpixel placement is the same but adressed differently (just like the Quattrons). Shap uses Delta adressing.

Sharp uses RGB stripes, but often turns off the upper/lower half of the subpixel for darker shades being displayed. (it is alternated) For bright images, you have a full RGB stripe lit up.


As for LG's OLED vs Samsung's... I won't be buying either this year, at any price, it seems.

While the white subpixel/white OLED design may be very smart in terms of efficiency/lifespan, a fourth subpixel is not a good thing for image quality. If we move away from RGB stripes, it should be to layered, full colour pixels, doing away with subpixels entirely. (aside from the optics, single chip DLP is so much sharper than any other display as a result of this)

As for Samsung:


Vertical RGB stripes? Useless with a computer hooked up to it.
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