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post #151 of 179 Old 01-15-2012, 11:19 PM
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Originally Posted by Nielo TM View Post

Need to hit the bed before I can dive into this.

Now that OLED is one step closer to reality, the Transparent OLED TV is no longer just a dream.

Yes it is technically possible, but like I said before, I am not too sure that you want a transparent monitor in your office Not that useful for TV as it will diminish contrast unless you have a black wall

Probably only purpose IMHO is that it looks cool in sci-fi

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Originally Posted by Nielo TM View Post

WOW!

Pixels do appear to be stacked and the gap is massive for a 50/60".

This is not surprising. Crystal LED is technically an LED billboard shrink to the size of a 55" TV with 6mio LEDs jam packed. Key is how you jam pack them in such confined space and 2ndly the heat generated.

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Originally Posted by DaViD Boulet View Post

I love the idea of "stacked" color elements as I find most direct-view HD displays distractingly noise-ridden from wide-angle viewing distances merely because of the visible pixel structure from side-by-side color elements at the 1080 level.

My LCOS projector, however, allows me to get almost 1 screen width away because it has "stacked" color and small inter-pixel spacing.

Now THIS is WOW! May I know how big the screen is and how close you were sitting to see SDE?
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post #152 of 179 Old 01-16-2012, 04:43 AM
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Originally Posted by Raistlin_HT View Post

Oh cool. Do you know off the top of your head if Windows offers something similar? That would make this moot.

There is the ClearType Text Tuner, but this only allows you to choose between RGB, BGR or greyscale rendering. Frankly, Windows' font rendering is rather poor.

OS X only has RGB font rendering options. (but it's far superior to how Windows renders fonts) By default, your only option is whether to use subpixel font rendering or not, as it runs on the GPU now. If you run it on the CPU, you have light/heavy options available, but they're still RGB.

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While I generally agree, the proof is in the pudding. There are 3-chip LCoS displays that pass 1080p resolution tests, so getting the alignment right is obviously possible. I assume the issue is that alignment changes over throw distance? So you'd need alignment calibration depending on where it's located?

It's nothing to do with throw distance, just the alignment of the LCoS chips in the light path. I've never seen an LCoS projector with anything close to perfect alignment.

Going back to that same page, here are three generations of JVC projectors (which are hardly cheap) compared with single-chip DLP for alternating black/white lines:


Any colour fringing with DLP is chromatic aberrations from the optics, with LCoS, it's primarily due to panel misconvergence.

Many people, including Joe Kane, have made the argument that "1080p LCoS" does not actually resolve proper 1080p resolution. After owning an SXRD projector, I'm inclined to agree.

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Certainly you are correct that single-chip solutions don't have to worry about that though. However with DLP, the side-effect is you need to worry about temporal issues due to PWM for color production.

Absolutely. My last high-end projector was a Sony SXRD unit, and I was disappointed with sharpness on it when watching 1080p content due to misconvergence. (and it wasn't even bad misconvergence either) Right now I'm waiting for the price of DLP projectors using other light sources (LED/Laser/Hybrid) to drop before getting back into projection at my new place. (LED/Laser mostly eliminate the "rainbow" problem)

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Originally Posted by Raistlin_HT View Post

Probably. Thankfully OLED and LED-based displays at least have the potential to eventually offer full color pixels. Whether it ends up being tenable or not remains to be seen though (either cost or performance issues).

I don't see it happening any time soon unfortunately. As I said before, I think we'll see the jump to 4K first, as that's a big jump in resolution and has the benefit of also reducing the visibility of the subpixels.

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Originally Posted by specuvestor View Post

Yes it is technically possible, but like I said before, I am not too sure that you want a transparent monitor in your office Not that useful for TV as it will diminish contrast unless you have a black wall

As others have said, there are simple solutions to that problem. Having a transparent LCD panel, or even a sheet of "smart glass" behind the transparent OLED panel would give you a switchable opaque background.
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post #153 of 179 Old 01-16-2012, 05:15 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by specuvestor View Post

Yes it is technically possible, but like I said before, I am not too sure that you want a transparent monitor in your office Not that useful for TV as it will diminish contrast unless you have a black wall

Probably only purpose IMHO is that it looks cool in sci-fi


Just use simple two-tone LCD or smart glass when the background needs to be black . So when the display is active, the whole screen turns black.

But seriously though when a TV is inactive, it's turns into a dark patch in the living room. If it is transparent, then it wouldn't be so dominating and just blends into the background.


Yes it's purely aesthetic but it would be so cool to have one



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Originally Posted by specuvestor View Post

This is not surprising. Crystal LED is technically an LED billboard shrink to the size of a 55" TV with 6mio LEDs jam packed. Key is how you jam pack them in such confined space and 2ndly the heat generated.

Hmmm, I would love to see the pixel structure in person cos I can still make out the red, green and blue in circular form.


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post #154 of 179 Old 01-16-2012, 01:30 PM
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Originally Posted by Nielo TM View Post

Just use simple two-tone LCD or smart glass when the background needs to be black . So when the display is active, the whole screen turns black.

But seriously though when a TV is inactive, it's turns into a dark patch in the living room. If it is transparent, then it wouldn't be so dominating and just blends into the background.


Yes it's purely aesthetic but it would be so cool to have one :.

This is an intriguing idea for a $20,000 TV for the rich and famous. That said, I do believe you would give up significant contrast with any switchable backplane. Are you aware of anything that could turn jet-black and opaque electrically (I'm not)?

We've fought a long war to get contrast up where it needs to be, this kind of design will be a step backwards unless there exists some miracle tech I don't know about. A giant LCD panel will not be nearly dark enough by the way. LCDs also only block light in one direction unless something has changed that I'm unaware of.

There is no difference in HDMI cables. If you can see the picture without visible dropouts or sparklies, the cable is working at 100%. No other cable will display a better version of that picture. You're simply wrong if you think there is a better digital cable than one that is already working.
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post #155 of 179 Old 01-16-2012, 02:57 PM
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Originally Posted by Nielo TM View Post

But seriously though when a TV is inactive, it's turns into a dark patch in the living room. If it is transparent, then it would't be so dominating and just blends into the background.


Yes it's purely aesthetic but it would be so cool to have one

This would be a disaster. The whole world could see the disaster that has resulted from mounting 4 displays in 10 years

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post #156 of 179 Old 01-16-2012, 07:53 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rogo View Post

This is an intriguing idea for a $20,000 TV for the rich and famous. That said, I do believe you would give up significant contrast with any switchable backplane. Are you aware of anything that could turn jet-black and opaque electrically (I'm not)?

We've fought a long war to get contrast up where it needs to be, this kind of design will be a step backwards unless there exists some miracle tech I don't know about. A giant LCD panel will not be nearly dark enough by the way. LCDs also only block light in one direction unless something has changed that I'm unaware of.

It's not really a problem if you think about it.


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post #157 of 179 Old 01-16-2012, 07:59 PM
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Originally Posted by RichB View Post

This would be a disaster. The whole world could see the disaster that has resulted from mounting 4 displays in 10 years

- Rich

My dream is to own a transparent display and as god (or whome ever is up there) as my witness I will get my way LOL


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post #158 of 179 Old 01-16-2012, 10:16 PM
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Originally Posted by Nielo TM View Post

It's not really a problem if you think about it.

I've thought about it. Please explain to me how not having a black substrate is going to work.

There is no difference in HDMI cables. If you can see the picture without visible dropouts or sparklies, the cable is working at 100%. No other cable will display a better version of that picture. You're simply wrong if you think there is a better digital cable than one that is already working.
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post #159 of 179 Old 01-16-2012, 10:53 PM
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Motorized rollable black screen behind. -Problem - solved!
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post #160 of 179 Old 01-16-2012, 11:17 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chronoptimist View Post

As others have said, there are simple solutions to that problem. Having a transparent LCD panel, or even a sheet of "smart glass" behind the transparent OLED panel would give you a switchable opaque background.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nielo TM View Post

It's not really a problem if you think about it.

Why do you want to create a "problem" to solve is what I am saying

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Originally Posted by Nielo TM View Post

Just use simple two-tone LCD or smart glass when the background needs to be black . So when the display is active, the whole screen turns black.

But seriously though when a TV is inactive, it’s turns into a dark patch in the living room. If it is transparent, then it wouldn’t be so dominating and just blends into the background.

Yes it’s purely aesthetic but it would be so cool to have one

Like you said, OLED is inherently transparent. Sooooooo... we have to somehow power it to turn it black? I'm guessing some energy agency will have something to say about it

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Originally Posted by CATYPH202 View Post

Motorized rollable black screen behind. -Problem - solved!

Explain again why projectors didn't catch on?? Or you suggesting having a transparent screen to have a less imposing screen just so to hang a screen on top

Why create a problem to solve...
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post #161 of 179 Old 01-16-2012, 11:26 PM
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Originally Posted by Nielo TM View Post

Hmmm, I would love to see the pixel structure in person cos I can still make out the red, green and blue in circular form.

You should visit the 4k thread where some argue 1080p is max resolvable resolution so 4k is moot.

Obviously you and David Boulet are in denial
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post #162 of 179 Old 01-17-2012, 05:56 AM
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Originally Posted by specuvestor View Post

Explain again why projectors didn't catch on?? Or you suggesting having a transparent screen to have a less imposing screen just so to hang a screen on top

Why create a problem to solve...

Have it built into the display, not an external screen.

Why create a problem to solve? I understand that, as an American, you have oversized rooms and love your electronics to be large and imposing, to show off just how much money you spent on it all, but not all of us want that.

As screens get ever-larger, you're now looking at flat panel displays the size of smaller projection setups, except they're a giant black slab in the middle of your room.

Not all of us have a room to dedicate to home theatre, or want our televisions to be the focus of the room.

If you don't think people want a white projection screen in their homes, why would you think they'd want a flat panel that's a much bigger eyesore? Make the display transparent (when off) and suddenly it's not nearly so imposing on the room.

Put a display like that as a divider in an open-plan space, and you have a lounge that you can see into, has a lot of light coming in, then turn the TV on and it divides the room from the rest of the space.


Surely you can't be so closed-minded that you can't see why someone would want this? Why there are several TV manufacturers pursuing transparent displays?
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post #163 of 179 Old 01-17-2012, 06:18 AM
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Originally Posted by rogo View Post

I've thought about it. Please explain to me how not having a black substrate is going to work.


When viewing in a dark environment, there isn't sufficient ambient light (or light behind the panel) to notice an increase a rise in black level (providing there's an component to block the light).

In day time or in a sufficiently lit environment, our eye's dynamic range moves towards the brighter side of the spectrum so if there are any dark grays they will appear as black (much like on current LCDs)


Besides, we already have the tech to block the lights anyway (Electrochromic Glass)


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post #164 of 179 Old 01-17-2012, 06:27 AM
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Originally Posted by Chronoptimist View Post

Have it built into the display, not an external screen.

Why create a problem to solve? I understand that, as an American, you have oversized rooms and love your electronics to be large and imposing, to show off just how much money you spent on it all, but not all of us want that.

As screens get ever-larger, you're now looking at flat panel displays the size of smaller projection setups, except they're a giant black slab in the middle of your room.

Not all of us have a room to dedicate to home theatre, or want our televisions to be the focus of the room.

If you don't think people want a white projection screen in their homes, why would you think they'd want a flat panel that's a much bigger eyesore? Make the display transparent (when off) and suddenly it's not nearly so imposing on the room.

Put a display like that as a divider in an open-plan space, and you have a lounge that you can see into, has a lot of light coming in, then turn the TV on and it divides the room from the rest of the space.


Surely you can't be so closed-minded that you can't see why someone would want this? Why there are several TV manufacturers pursuing transparent displays?

Bingo

In UK, anything over 50" is hard to sell because of the lack of space. Most people tend to go for 40-50 mainly because the TVs are so huge, they start to dominate the environment and dwarf the rest. Making it transparent is an ideal way to blend the technology with the environment for seamless experience.

I know Samsung is working on this, but I'm sure other companies are too because it can be applied to many areas.


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post #165 of 179 Old 01-17-2012, 07:08 AM
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Originally Posted by Chronoptimist View Post

I understand that, as an American, you have oversized rooms and love your electronics to be large and imposing, to show off just how much money you spent on it all, but not all of us want that.

What? So the movie theaters over where you live have 50" screens? I think many here are trying to recreate the movie theater experience, and that usually means going with the biggest screen you can afford and that your wife will allow. There is a reason movie screens are so big, it is to fully immerse you into the story being told.
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post #166 of 179 Old 01-17-2012, 08:06 AM
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It seems a logical development - big fat CRT, Flatscreen, Ultra thin, Transparent -. Will the masses eventually stick with ultra thin or will they embrace transparent screens? Or will the industry force transparent stuff upon us?

The masses seem to be in love with ultra thin, don't believe eventually everything will be transparent, i could emagine transparent as an option next to ultra thin.
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Tube, Flat, Ultra-Flat, Transparent, Massless (Holographic)?


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post #168 of 179 Old 01-17-2012, 08:31 AM
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Well look at it this way: if they manage to get transparent screens working well, and there are no compromises, why would you not want the transparent display?

In reality, I expect a transparent OLED display will have some contrast trade-off, but will still be far superior to current PDP/LCD displays, and certainly good enough that they will likely become the new "Edge LED" sets.
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post #169 of 179 Old 01-17-2012, 09:20 AM
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Wow, I could put my TV in a window, TV off I have window, with TV on I already have shades on the windows, so no problem with dark background and I have reclaimed all the wall space. Wait, who needs windows when TV off lets display camera's view of outside, with 4k and 3D it should look like looking out the real window, wait, scratch that, TV off I want to fool myself into thinking my house is on the Costa Rica beach, I don't want to see 2 feet of snow piling up in front. So where do I get this transparent TV?
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post #170 of 179 Old 01-17-2012, 10:04 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chronoptimist; View Post

Well look at it this way: if they manage to get transparent screens working well, and there are no compromises, why would you not want the transparent display?

In most households you will find very little transparent stuff, people are not really into it
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post #171 of 179 Old 01-17-2012, 11:13 AM
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Originally Posted by pete4 View Post

Wow, I could put my TV in a window, TV off I have window, with TV on I already have shades on the windows, so no problem with dark background and I have reclaimed all the wall space. Wait, who needs windows when TV off lets display camera's view of outside, with 4k and 3D it should look like looking out the real window, wait, scratch that, TV off I want to fool myself into thinking my house is on the Costa Rica beach, I don't want to see 2 feet of snow piling up in front. So where do I get this transparent TV?

You might like this. Samsung's Transparent Smart Window 2012 Prototype
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a3H8HP7UZow
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post #172 of 179 Old 01-17-2012, 04:38 PM - Thread Starter
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To wrap up, it sounds like LG's OLED display was better than Samsung's Super OLED display. CNET and HDGURU explicitly picked the LG over the Samsung, and Trustedreviews gave a luke warm review of the Samsung.
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post #173 of 179 Old 01-17-2012, 05:18 PM
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To wrap up, it sounds like LG's OLED display was better than Samsung's Super OLED display. CNET and HDGURU explicitly picked the LG over the Samsung, and Trustedreviews gave a luke warm review of the Samsung.

Wait, I thought everyone was blown away by these, except for ignorant people like Rogo.... Soooo confused now.

The LG was definitely better after spending time with it, by the way, but there were enough scenes that were unimpressive that I hope the shipping product gets tweaked heavily.

There is no difference in HDMI cables. If you can see the picture without visible dropouts or sparklies, the cable is working at 100%. No other cable will display a better version of that picture. You're simply wrong if you think there is a better digital cable than one that is already working.
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post #174 of 179 Old 01-17-2012, 05:36 PM
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Originally Posted by Chronoptimist View Post

Have it built into the display, not an external screen.

Why create a problem to solve? I understand that, as an American, you have oversized rooms and love your electronics to be large and imposing, to show off just how much money you spent on it all, but not all of us want that.

As screens get ever-larger, you're now looking at flat panel displays the size of smaller projection setups, except they're a giant black slab in the middle of your room.

Not all of us have a room to dedicate to home theatre, or want our televisions to be the focus of the room.

If you don't think people want a white projection screen in their homes, why would you think they'd want a flat panel that's a much bigger eyesore? Make the display transparent (when off) and suddenly it's not nearly so imposing on the room.

Put a display like that as a divider in an open-plan space, and you have a lounge that you can see into, has a lot of light coming in, then turn the TV on and it divides the room from the rest of the space.

Surely you can't be so closed-minded that you can't see why someone would want this? Why there are several TV manufacturers pursuing transparent displays?

Firstly I am not American. So lesson is don't jump to conclusion. I don't brand you anti-plasma neither as long as you make an iota of sense.

Secondly in general most Far East Asians dedicate/sacrifice a wall in their living room for the TV and console. It could be a cultural thing that we are not so anal about a wall being filled with a device 1" thick. We figured there's little to put up in the wall as well since there are stuff on our TV rack (which we usually put below) like AVR, players, game consoles and wires that are not transparent.

Problem with projectors is that they are more hassle than just a white/grey screen.

Close minded? It's a thread difference from overhyping. I am pro-4K but 8k skeptic. I am pro OLED but CLED skeptic. I am not anti-transparent display. OLED can do it. I am anti-senseless. Like I always say: Technology has to make sense. That's why Apple is successful while other tech guys are still focusing on what technology CAN do. I'm sure having internet on the fridge is a good idea as well.

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Originally Posted by Chronoptimist View Post

Well look at it this way: if they manage to get transparent screens working well, and there are no compromises, why would you not want the transparent display?

In reality, I expect a transparent OLED display will have some contrast trade-off, but will still be far superior to current PDP/LCD displays, and certainly good enough that they will likely become the new "Edge LED" sets.

Look at it this way: RGB OLED can be transparent. So if it is in demand the manufacturers CAN make it. Question is will they? I don't even hear Sammy talk much about it. IMHO it is just showcase. Do tell which TV manufacturer is AGGRESSIVELY pursuing it. For eg I can see Sharp aggressive in 4k and huge TV, Sammy & LG was on 3D LCD and now OLED. But I don't hear AUO doing much on FED.
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post #175 of 179 Old 01-18-2012, 01:20 PM
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That said, here's Harry McCracken at Cnet... Pretty much expressing my feelings in spades:

"Giant OLED TVs aren't inherently amazing.
It's a long-standing CES tradition for TV makers to try and out-do each other with demos of high-end big screens that won't wind up in many living rooms anytime soon. This year, the makers in question were LG and Samsung, which had 55-inch OLED TVs at their booths. I checked out both sets--and didn't come away lusting after either one. The LG, at least when I saw it, was displaying gimmicky 3D videos, which made it hard to judge how good it would be for anything else. And the video clips I saw on the Samsung were way over-saturated, giving everything an artificial, candy-colored effect that reminded me of some OLED smartphones."

Why doesn't that Samsung comment surprise me?

As far as I know, their OLED TV tech is primarily based on their phone tech, and yeah ... color accuracy is not a strong suit (I have a Samsung Focus). That was one of the things I was worried about, and why I felt the LG tech had better short-term promise. By using color filters, it completely avoids the issue.
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post #176 of 179 Old 01-18-2012, 02:21 PM
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Originally Posted by Raistlin_HT View Post

Why doesn't that Samsung comment surprise me?

As far as I know, their OLED TV tech is primarily based on their phone tech, and yeah ... color accuracy is not a strong suit (I have a Samsung Focus). That was one of the things I was worried about, and why I felt the LG tech had better short-term promise. By using color filters, it completely avoids the issue.

That's an interesting point. Depending how close they get the white to their existing white from the CCFL/LED world, the color filters are really doing the same thing they were before (with the caveat that the light isn't being polarized).

One thing I failed to get a clear answer on is why they are emitting white out the screen, although I could speculate. Before, it required not just a transistor but a "well" of LC material to have a white pixel, so it was probably just considered more practical to make white from the light primaries. Now, since there is no need to make an explicit LC "well" for the white and instead only add a transistor to the backplane, you can just send the white directly out when you need white.

It will be interesting to see going forward if we get better / purer whites this way, or if it does something funky that they have to work around. It also implies there is some light loss inherent in the layering approach, which makes sense even with layers that are ostensibly transparent. Not that I'm worried about brightness on the shipping products, although it might be true that the first-gen products don't match the latest LCDs maximum settings (which most people would never use anyway).

There is no difference in HDMI cables. If you can see the picture without visible dropouts or sparklies, the cable is working at 100%. No other cable will display a better version of that picture. You're simply wrong if you think there is a better digital cable than one that is already working.
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post #177 of 179 Old 01-18-2012, 02:25 PM
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Originally Posted by Chronoptimist View Post

It's nothing to do with throw distance, just the alignment of the LCoS chips in the light path. I've never seen an LCoS projector with anything close to perfect alignment.

Going back to that same page, here are three generations of JVC projectors (which are hardly cheap) compared with single-chip DLP for alternating black/white lines:

I haven't dealt with front-projectors, but for my rear-projector (60A3000) ... it does seem to pass resolution tests. Is it as crisp? I'd assume not, but as long as it isn't actually causing artifacts I'm happy. If anything, I find it looks better that way ... at least for non-text content. Aliasing is too obvious otherwise (for me).

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Absolutely. My last high-end projector was a Sony SXRD unit, and I was disappointed with sharpness on it when watching 1080p content due to misconvergence. (and it wasn't even bad misconvergence either) Right now I'm waiting for the price of DLP projectors using other light sources (LED/Laser/Hybrid) to drop before getting back into projection at my new place. (LED/Laser mostly eliminate the "rainbow" problem)

Yeah the Laser-lit ones seem pretty damn nice. It's too bad Mitz never looked into traditional LED as well (now that Samsung bowed out) for RPTV
s.

Do you think we'll see much movement in the front projector market in terms of pricing though? At least for the short-term, non-traditional illumination looks to remain a niche of an already niche market. I'm just not sure there's enough competition to drive down prices anytime soon

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I don't see it happening any time soon unfortunately. As I said before, I think we'll see the jump to 4K first, as that's a big jump in resolution and has the benefit of also reducing the visibility of the subpixels.

The only reason I see it is cost. It's appears to be cheaper to do layered OLED versus a traditional sub-pixel design (which is why LG went in this direction). I think LG however saw the same problems Samsung is reportedly having with their OLED - color accuracy. Otherwise why bother doing WOLED instead of just having each WOLED as a full color pixel?

I think once (if) they can figure how to do get accurate color control, they'd go this route since it would reduce costs even further (cut the 'pixel' count by 4 ... or 3 if they wanted to keep a secondary white sub-pixel for efficiency).
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post #178 of 179 Old 01-18-2012, 02:27 PM
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Originally Posted by dawgpac View Post

You might like this. Samsung's Transparent Smart Window 2012 Prototype
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a3H8HP7UZow

Which is LCD BTW. Seems like they're further along with large-scale transparent LCD than OLED.
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Originally Posted by rogo View Post

That's an interesting point. Depending how close they get the white to their existing white from the CCFL/LED world, the color filters are really doing the same thing they were before (with the caveat that the light isn't being polarized).

Actually it is being polarized (though for different reasons) ... 3D


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One thing I failed to get a clear answer on is why they are emitting white out the screen, although I could speculate. Before, it required not just a transistor but a "well" of LC material to have a white pixel, so it was probably just considered more practical to make white from the light primaries. Now, since there is no need to make an explicit LC "well" for the white and instead only add a transistor to the backplane, you can just send the white directly out when you need white.

It will be interesting to see going forward if we get better / purer whites this way, or if it does something funky that they have to work around. It also implies there is some light loss inherent in the layering approach, which makes sense even with layers that are ostensibly transparent. Not that I'm worried about brightness on the shipping products, although it might be true that the first-gen products don't match the latest LCDs maximum settings (which most people would never use anyway).

I suspect this is why they decided to go with the extra white 'sub-pixel' on the color filter. Allows for brighter images to compensate for light loss from the layering and color filters without needing to drive the OLED's as hard (aging).
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