THE BATTLE of the KINGS!! - Page 3 - AVS Forum
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post #61 of 112 Old 02-05-2012, 12:51 PM
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Here's an idea how you can speed up the brain tune-up.

Turn your Contrast and Brightness to 50%.
Turn Sharpness to 0%.
Turn ALL enhancments off.
Turn Color/Saturation to 0%. Yes that's Black and White.
Watch religiously for at least a week.
Then hire a Pro Calibrator to tune your TV.

You'll then see the best picture you've ever seen in your life.
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post #62 of 112 Old 02-05-2012, 01:54 PM
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I think there just has to be an acceptance that some people's tastes are different. While I agree that LCDs are brighter and clearer I prefer plasma because I find the LCD image to feel artificial and unnatural. I also don't like women who wear fake nails, eye lashes or have fake boobs. Some people however love that artificial look of LCD and there are many who like that artificial look in women. Is any of that wrong? It's all subjective. We can all rationalize why sherm doesn't like the plasma image, but in the end it's what his mind prefers. My guess is after seeing a professionally calibrated plasma he'll hate it even more.
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post #63 of 112 Old 02-05-2012, 08:17 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nytro View Post

The bottom line is: The only thing that should change is your own brain. You should tune your brain to enjoy a calibrated display, NOT tune your display to be enjoyed by your brain.

I can't disagree with this enough. If he likes bright, vivid colors and the pop from an LED then that is what he likes. If he wants a reference image and a calibration then he will get that. I calibrate every set I review, and I calibrate sets for people. However I am never going to tell someone they need it or do it for them if they don't want it.

The important thing is that he enjoys the set and that he is educated about it. If he knows what a reference display looks like but wants more pop, then he should have more pop. He shouldn't "tune his brain" to enjoy something else. AV is all about enjoyment and while I might enjoy a reference display, many don't and I'm not going to force it on them. Doing so only makes them tell their friends that calibration is stupid and we don't know what we are talking about.

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post #64 of 112 Old 02-05-2012, 10:44 PM
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Sherm, before you return it, be sure to spend at least one week watching all content on a 5" black & white portable set, then have your plasma professionally calibrated. THEN you'll have an appreciation for the subtle nuance & type of accurate picture only plasma can deliver.
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post #65 of 112 Old 02-05-2012, 11:13 PM
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Speaking of Value Electronics, seek out their 2011 shootout of the top tier TVs (involving several pro calibrators) via Google (or your search engine of choice). You will find that the results mirror what is being stated here.[img]http://www.******************/zhaojh.jpg[/img][img]http://www.******************/zhaoht.jpg[/img][img]http://www.******************/zhaogd.jpg[/img]
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post #66 of 112 Old 02-06-2012, 08:09 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Smackrabbit View Post

I can't disagree with this enough. If he likes bright, vivid colors and the pop from an LED then that is what he likes. If he wants a reference image and a calibration then he will get that. I calibrate every set I review, and I calibrate sets for people. However I am never going to tell someone they need it or do it for them if they don't want it.

The important thing is that he enjoys the set and that he is educated about it. If he knows what a reference display looks like but wants more pop, then he should have more pop. He shouldn't "tune his brain" to enjoy something else. AV is all about enjoyment and while I might enjoy a reference display, many don't and I'm not going to force it on them. Doing so only makes them tell their friends that calibration is stupid and we don't know what we are talking about.

Hence the debate... lol

I can care less if he one anyone calibrates their TV, nor am I trying to force him to do it. The point I was trying to make, which I stated earlier is he has two choices, return the TV for a brighter one, or keep it and try calibrating. Others mentioned he check out calibated displays first. I'm just saying I doubt he will like a calibated display, because it will probably be even more "dull and lifeless" than it is now.

I do want to make it clear to him, and others, there is a right and wrong way to tune your TV, and it has NOTHING to do with personal preference. But again, if someone likes a TV that's non-calibated, cool. I just want them to realize that what they are liking is not an accurate picture. Furthermore, the reason people like bright, vivid (fake) colors is because they are brainwashed by retail stores and manufactures. Case in point, when's the last time you heard someone coming out a movie theater saying, "boy that picture was dull and lifeless"?
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post #67 of 112 Old 02-06-2012, 10:08 PM
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Thanks for the feed back. I'll be awaiting further input on your experience hope it has a happy ending.

P:S. I understand that the D7000 D8000 series are similar ...what was your experience with the T.V like...Specifically for games like MW3. For myself d6500 showed no "noticeable" input lag, on game mode but then PQ suffers (calibrated it's ok) and motion blur was a little obvious.
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post #68 of 112 Old 02-07-2012, 04:57 PM - Thread Starter
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Well, had one of my co-worker's friend "calibrate" the tv, he did it with this $500 disk he has and his computer, boy did it look like some one put sunglasses on the entire screen, its umm.....LIFELESS! God awful screen, everything looks dull, so after he left I did a factory reset and went back to some what normal screen.

Honestly, I really don't think doing the whole black and white thing for a week is worth it, I understand what you are saying and don't take this the wrong way coz i do appreciate all the guidance and help, but the truth is, I have started to feel that I am trying too hard to "like" the tv, than just to buy it and be excited that I have a kick ass tv.

For example, some people will go buy a hyundai genesis and think it is the best car ever, or some people will run after the mercedes, even some after the ford fusion which is rated #1 car of 2011, to me all of the above are **** cars(sorry if any one owns them, not trying to offend anyone), point is from an expert mechanic's point of view, probably they will say toyota or honda are the best, magazines will rate the above, but again for some one like me nothing is more fun and awesome than my G37 coupe. Again, personal preference is worth spending money on, I want to be happy and excited about this tv, not run around calibrating it and "waiting" to like it, i hope i made sense.

Ok so after having the tv for 3 days now, this is where I stand-

Cable tv- Good quality, although there is color fluctuation

Gaming- Terrible, all maps look yellowish in mw3, bright gets suddenly brighter and then too dark, no lag though(game mode on)

Movies- Looks theater like,but enhanced to a point that in Dark knight I could not see any details on batmans suit


Final thought- I will be going back to un65d8000, you can tone it to a plasma level(I had) but you cannot make a plasma as bright as a LED set. I miss the fine details and mostly the ability to enjoy my gaming, which now feels like crap and I am not sure when it will be bright or too dark, for example, going from a dark to bright room, my eyes hurt and need time to adjust. With the plasma I had to wait for tv to break-in to have no motion lag while gaming, with my LED it was good to go right out of the box.


SO, people who like bright popping screen where they wanna see true clarity and also like to game more than anything, LED will be the best choice, as usual your personal preference rules over everything else.

In a nutshell, I will conclude the thread I started myself with this thought......

In the battle of the kings of tv, including the XBR929 and Elite, which I spent time looking at.....in my book, the clear winner is UN65D8000!!!

***Now feel free to crucify me the almighty god's of AVS LOL ***
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post #69 of 112 Old 02-07-2012, 07:46 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sherm0712 View Post

Well, had one of my co-worker's friend "calibrate" the tv, he did it with this $500 disk he has and his computer, boy did it look like some one put sunglasses on the entire screen, its umm.....LIFELESS! God awful screen, everything looks dull, so after he left I did a factory reset and went back to some what normal screen.

$500 disk? Did he use a Light Meter? A device to measure colors that he put right up to the screen? If not, that calibration was useless.

However, I did have a feeling you wouldn't like a True calibrated display, because you are used to seeing vivid colors. BTW, I wasn't too happy after calibrating mine either, but I learned to love it after about a month. It's an aquired taste, sort of like coffee and beer.

Quote:


Honestly, I really don't think doing the whole black and white thing for a week is worth it, I understand what you are saying and don't take this the wrong way coz i do appreciate all the guidance and help, but the truth is, I have started to feel that I am trying too hard to "like" the tv, than just to buy it and be excited that I have a kick ass tv.

For example, some people will go buy a hyundai genesis and think it is the best car ever, or some people will run after the mercedes, even some after the ford fusion which is rated #1 car of 2011, to me all of the above are **** cars(sorry if any one owns them, not trying to offend anyone), point is from an expert mechanic's point of view, probably they will say toyota or honda are the best, magazines will rate the above, but again for some one like me nothing is more fun and awesome than my G37 coupe. Again, personal preference is worth spending money on, I want to be happy and excited about this tv, not run around calibrating it and "waiting" to like it, i hope i made sense.

All I have to say is, you do what makes you happy. I just hope you might have learned something, even though it might not have helped. BTW, the next time you go see a movie in a theater, keep in mind you are watching a Truly Calibrated display. That will probably ruin going to movies for you from now on. LOL
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post #70 of 112 Old 02-07-2012, 07:53 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nytro View Post

$500 disk? Did he use a Light Meter? A device to measure colors that he put right up to the screen? If not, that calibration was useless.

However, I did have a feeling you wouldn't like a True calibrated display, because you are used to seeing vivid colors. BTW, I wasn't too happy after calibrating mine either, but I learned to love it after about a month. It's an aquired taste, sort of like coffee and beer.


All I have to say is, you do what makes you happy. I just hope you might have learned something, even though it might not have helped.


Yes, he did and he usually charges $200 to do a in-home calibration but since my co-worker was hell bent on making me a plasma lover(he owns one) he got mine done for nothing and then got pissed off saying "you have poor taste" LOL

BTW, I love coffee and beer lol Cheers!

Yes sir Nytro, I have learnt a lot, A LOT LOT! I am well educated now and even though I could not acquire the taste of the Pro's, I at least know how to be close enough.

In response to your movie theater comment, I will tell you this, I ALWAYS thought movie theaters are too dull, until IMAX, they look brighter so I only goto IMAX theaters now LOL I know, I am a true idiot.

I will be posting pictures of my 65D8000 with settings I like and what I could not find in the plasma, I have taken a few pics of the plasma to compare.

Bottoms up!
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post #71 of 112 Old 02-07-2012, 07:59 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by pcdo View Post

I think there just has to be an acceptance that some people's tastes are different. While I agree that LCDs are brighter and clearer I prefer plasma because I find the LCD image to feel artificial and unnatural. I also don't like women who wear fake nails, eye lashes or have fake boobs. Some people however love that artificial look of LCD and there are many who like that artificial look in women. Is any of that wrong? It's all subjective. We can all rationalize why sherm doesn't like the plasma image, but in the end it's what his mind prefers. My guess is after seeing a professionally calibrated plasma he'll hate it even more.


You are correct Sir, although I don't like women with fake boobs either, I rather take natural pears than man made watermelons LMAO
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post #72 of 112 Old 02-07-2012, 08:25 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nytro View Post

BTW, the next time you go see a movie in a theater, keep in mind you are watching a Truly Calibrated display. That will probably ruin going to movies for you from now on. LOL

Unless you are going to the Arclight in LA or a few other specific theaters in the country, very few are reference level. They will run the bulbs low to reduce light and save money, have too much ambient light, have the wrong lens attached or worse. The print that comes to the theater is likely a reference copy, just like a Blu-ray disc can be, but by no means does going to a theater mean you are getting a reference experience.

The statement that LED will bring more "clarity" is the one statement from the OP I am going to disagree with. As soon as you leave reference levels, you are losing dynamic range and details, not gaining them. Having a contrast or gamma setting to add more pop will always be at the expense of shadow detail. Humans are more sensitive to shadow detail than highlight detail. In bit terms, going from level 17 to 18 is noticeable in shadows, but from 231 to 232 in a highlight you almost certainly won't notice.

If that is how you want the image then that's fine. There is just no way to add detail or dynamic range by going outside of reference levels, the only thing you can do is choose to accentuate a certain aspect (highlights or shadows) at the expense of other image aspects.

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post #73 of 112 Old 02-07-2012, 08:38 PM
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Unless you are going to the Arclight in LA or a few other specific theaters in the country, very few are reference level. They will run the bulbs low to reduce light and save money, have too much ambient light, have the wrong lens attached or worse. The print that comes to the theater is likely a reference copy, just like a Blu-ray disc can be, but by no means does going to a theater mean you are getting a reference experience.

I'll admit I'm not an authority on movie theaters, but they have to be much more accurate than default settings on TV's. No?
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post #74 of 112 Old 02-07-2012, 09:01 PM - Thread Starter
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The statement that LED will bring more "clarity" is the one statement from the OP I am going to disagree with. As soon as you leave reference levels, you are losing dynamic range and details, not gaining them. Having a contrast or gamma setting to add more pop will always be at the expense of shadow detail. Humans are more sensitive to shadow detail than highlight detail. In bit terms, going from level 17 to 18 is noticeable in shadows, but from 231 to 232 in a highlight you almost certainly won't notice.


Hmm did I say that? My bad on that one, but, if I can see the picture more "clear" than the plasma, then it does indeed bring clarity

Can you say the same thing without getting so technical, my dictionary can not decipher all that LOL What is a reference level and dynamic range?
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post #75 of 112 Old 02-07-2012, 09:11 PM
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Hmm did I say that? My bad on that one, but, if I can see the picture more "clear" than the plasma, then it does indeed bring clarity

Can you say the same thing without getting so technical, my dictionary can not decipher all that LOL What is a reference level and dynamic range?

Dynamic Range: "The difference between, or ratio, of the lightest and darkest elements on a printed or displayed image"

Which means unless the display is calibrated correctly, the DR will not be at its maximum for that display. Or in other words, if not calibrated you lose detail either in the bright end or dark end.
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post #76 of 112 Old 02-07-2012, 09:22 PM
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The reference level is a standard set by the industry to insure when they broadcast red, you really see red. Otherwise, you might see Green instead. Obviously an exaggeration, but if there were no standards at all, we couldn't even be sure we were watching the correct program. You might think baseball is really football. lol
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post #77 of 112 Old 02-07-2012, 09:23 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Nytro View Post

Dynamic Range: "The difference between, or ratio, of the lightest and darkest elements on a printed or displayed image"

Which means unless the display is calibrated correctly, the DR will not be at its maximum for that display. Or in other words, if not calibrated you lose detail either in the bright end or dark end.


Ok, so this is going to sound really dumb and stupid, but, can I get my LED calibrated correctly too or that is a luxury for plasma owners only?
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post #78 of 112 Old 02-07-2012, 09:27 PM
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The problem with vivid modes etc. is that they alter (expand) the primary colors, which throws off all the other colors. It may be minor, but non-the-less enough to show inaccurate colors, obvious to those used to watching calibrated displays.
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post #79 of 112 Old 02-07-2012, 09:29 PM
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Ok, so this is going to sound really dumb and stupid, but, can I get my LED calibrated correctly too or that is a luxury for plasma owners only?

Sure you can calibrate an LCD/LED TV, but it will look more like a calibrated plasma, but just not as good.

My guess is, if you thought the calibrated plasma looked bad, you will definitely hate a calibrated LCD.
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post #80 of 112 Old 02-07-2012, 09:42 PM - Thread Starter
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Sure you can calibrate an LCD/LED TV, but it will look more like a calibrated plasma, but just not as good.

My guess is, if you thought the calibrated plasma looked bad, you will definitely hate a calibrated LCD.


Hmm good point, damn I am doomed.

I came from a sony wega, which has such a rich screen without any calibration that I love, even though it weighs like 200lbs, I would never give it up. Even my gf looked at the plasma and said "are you depressed, why are u watching tv so dark?" LOL I bust out laughing, she could not tell the difference since the PN64D8000 and UN65D8000 look exactly the same, then i told her i switched to plasma and she wasn't impressed....except...when she was watching house wifes show(hate it) she was impressed LOL

Go figure, but I think I will give prof calibration a shot on my LED and see what happens.....
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post #81 of 112 Old 02-07-2012, 09:43 PM
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Sherm, did you happen to read this article? http://www.flatpanelshd.com/news.php...&id=1328263571

I happen to hate the "correct" picture in that article. But that's what the artist wants us to see. So, I hate the artist. LOL But I'm not going to alter my TV to show the picture the way I like. Why, because when I do see a picture from an artist I like, I won't like it. So with a calibated set, you'll know the good artists from the bad. Moral of the story, don't hate the messenger for a bad message.
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post #82 of 112 Old 02-07-2012, 10:00 PM - Thread Starter
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Sherm, did you happen to read this article? http://www.flatpanelshd.com/news.php...&id=1328263571

I happen to hate the "correct" picture in that article. But that's what the artist wants us to see. So, I hate the artist. LOL But I'm not going to alter my TV to show the picture the way I like. Why, because when I do see a picture from an artist I like, I won't like it. So with a calibated set, you'll know the good artists from the bad. Moral of the story, don't hate the messenger for a bad message.


Nytro, you have no idea how much I value what you are doing here, more or less this education is going to be good for the long run regardless.

Ok, so I read that article thoroughly and I think my problem(dont quote me) is not replacing the plasma, its REPLACING the damn plasma!

What I am trying to say is, the 2nd,3rd and 5th picture are identical to what my plasma is displaying, I think I got one of the defective ones. So tomorrow instead of ordering the LED 8000 I think I am going to exchange the same plasma for plasma, if that doesn't satisfy me, then I will take the next step.

Fingers crossed....
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post #83 of 112 Old 02-07-2012, 10:03 PM
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Excellent link from Nytro, pretty much nails it. The correct image is what I'm used to and what I expect from a display. If you look you will see fine detail, even in the shadows, natural color and the gray scale bars on each side track perfectly.

Looking at all the images I bet the OP most likes the one with Gamma set too high. I did a lot of research prior to buying my flat panel, and through that research I learned that there is a set of standards that yield the image the way it was designed to be seen. That was important to me, as is accurate audio - so I made choices based on that. Everyone is free to set their display any way they want, crank up the color if you want, no one really cares, but you can't claim that you have an accurate display or the King of displays, only one you like. That should be the end result of a shopping trip- that's what I aimed for and have.
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post #84 of 112 Old 02-07-2012, 10:05 PM
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Sherm, you very well could have a defective set, or it's just not calibrated correctly.

Go ahead and exchange it, and see what happens. Keep us posted.
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post #85 of 112 Old 02-07-2012, 10:38 PM
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I have a strong feeling the second plasma will be "defective" as well.
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post #86 of 112 Old 02-08-2012, 12:15 AM
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Well Sherm. the reason I posted the flatpanelshd article and told you to take trip to Scarsdale, is because I had a feeling calibration may not be for you. And that's OK. If you like the Samsung LED that's fine You're the one that will be watching it. So you might as well choose the set that makes you happy. Enjoy ! If you get another plasma, I hope that works out for you too. Bottom line is still; You're the one watching it.
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post #87 of 112 Old 02-08-2012, 06:58 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sherm0712; View Post

Hmm good point, damn I am doomed.

I came from a sony wega, which has such a rich screen without any calibration that I love, even though it weighs like 200lbs, I would never give it up. Even my gf looked at the plasma and said "are you depressed, why are u watching tv so dark?" LOL I bust out laughing, she could not tell the difference since the PN64D8000 and UN65D8000 look exactly the same, then i told her i switched to plasma and she wasn't impressed....except...when she was watching house wifes show(hate it) she was impressed LOL

Go figure, but I think I will give prof calibration a shot on my LED and see what happens.....

Good enough is good enough and the Edge Lit with ''local dimming'' UN65D8000 is good enough.

Don't believe you would appreciate the best picture a flatscreen is able to produce. Don't believe you would appreciate pro-calibration. And you won't get your money back in case you do not like it!
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post #88 of 112 Old 02-08-2012, 09:06 AM
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How great a place would this be if all the good enough people left and never came back?
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post #89 of 112 Old 02-08-2012, 09:40 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 8mile13 View Post

Good enough is good enough and the Edge Lit with ''local dimming'' UN65D8000 is good enough.

Don't believe you would appreciate the best picture a flatscreen is able to produce. Don't believe you would appreciate pro-calibration. And you won't get your money back in case you do not like it!


I am not sure if that was sarcastic butttt.......even so, I am willing to keep an open mind and give it a shot. Again, "best picture" is what appeals to your eyes and brain the most, so maybe the natural state of the picture as intended by the director might be lifeless and I would never want to watch it again, but if it is colorful and clear, well then I might own the damn film.

So, with due respect what I am trying to say is even thought I might not appreciate it in the end, I still want to try it, atleast this way I tried before knocking it down.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Artwood View Post

How great a place would this be if all the good enough people left and never came back?

Gee thanx, now I feel really unwelcomed, I guess that is the price to pay when you are uneducated.......
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post #90 of 112 Old 02-08-2012, 10:53 AM - Thread Starter
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P.S. How do you guys feel about buying tv from Buysquad.com and eastcoasttvs.com, the prices are dirt cheap, is it a scam or do you guys have any experience?
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