THE BATTLE of the KINGS!! - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 112 Old 01-30-2012, 08:21 AM - Thread Starter
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I thought this would be fun....Battle of the TOP 4 TV's of 2011, rated by my fellow friends of AVS, TV with MAX points by end of this week WINS!!!

Pick one winner in each group and state "why" did you pick the respective tv.


Group 1- PLASMA:

Samsung PN64D8000 VS Panasonic VT30


Group 2- LCD-LED:

Samsung UN65D8000 VS Sharp 70LE735U


Bonus point to pick out just one out of all of them, if you think one rules over all the others in the entire competition!!!



Game On!!!!
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post #2 of 112 Old 01-30-2012, 12:11 PM
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Its your first post on AVS Sherm, you have no friends here....yet

Uhh, the Samsung d8000 and Sharp LE735U (THE BATTLE of MEDIOCRE!! ) are not the 2011 top LCd's _> Sharp Elite Pro X5FD & Sony XBR HX929 are.
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post #3 of 112 Old 01-30-2012, 05:03 PM - Thread Starter
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I do have friends here, thats how I got here

I disagree with you, Elite and the XBR929 are the most EXPENSIVE tv's of 2011, samsung 8000 series offers same if not better picture quality.

But, you are entitled to your opinion and atleast you said something, I thought people are going to be all over this, guess I was wrong
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post #4 of 112 Old 01-30-2012, 06:12 PM
 
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Originally Posted by sherm0712 View Post

I do have friends here, thats how I got here

I disagree with you, Elite and the XBR929 are the most EXPENSIVE tv's of 2011, samsung 8000 series offers same if not better picture quality.

But, you are entitled to your opinion and atleast you said something, I thought people are going to be all over this, guess I was wrong

The Sammy LED is safely in third place behind the Elite and the Sony. With the Elite placing first over the Sony. Obviously. No contest.

The plasma contest is much closer.
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post #5 of 112 Old 01-30-2012, 07:48 PM
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Originally Posted by sherm0712 View Post

I do have friends here, thats how I got here

I disagree with you, Elite and the XBR929 are the most EXPENSIVE tv's of 2011, samsung 8000 series offers same if not better picture quality.

But, you are entitled to your opinion and atleast you said something, I thought people are going to be all over this, guess I was wrong


Lol, I think your introduction to AVS is not one with the best impressions after that statement which is only true if you believe marketing.

The 8000 series LCDs from Samsung, particularly the 65" version has to be one of the worst panels on the market for plus size FPD's. The plasma makes a good argument though.
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post #6 of 112 Old 01-30-2012, 08:53 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Fanaticalism View Post

Lol, I think your introduction to AVS is not one with the best impressions after that statement which is only true if you believe marketing.

The 8000 series LCDs from Samsung, particularly the 65" version has to be one of the worst panels on the market for plus size FPD's. The plasma makes a good argument though.



WOW! I feel bitch slapped and then some.

Okay guys take it easy on me, I thought I had it all figured out but now I feel like I am more of a..............ummmm.........idiot


Ok so educate me a little, I just got my 65inch 8000 series about a week ago and after dropping $4K on it I felt like a king, but right now not so much, since I still have time to return/exchange it, can you tell me what tv's are the REAL KINGS? XBR929 and Elite are out of my price range, I am not going over 4K, any ideas? Is the Sharp 70le735u a better choice or even worse? What about plasma in comparison?
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post #7 of 112 Old 01-30-2012, 09:16 PM
 
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WOW! I feel bitch slapped and then some.

Okay guys take it easy on me, I thought I had it all figured out but now I feel like I am more of a..............ummmm.........idiot

Ok so educate me a little, I just got my 65inch 8000 series about a week ago and after dropping $4K on it I felt like a king, but right now not so much, since I still have time to return/exchange it, can you tell me what tv's are the REAL KINGS? XBR929 and Elite are out of my price range, I am not going over 4K, any ideas? Is the Sharp 70le735u a better choice or even worse? What about plasma in comparison?

Both the Panasonic and Samsung plasmas would be the top two...a close race. Sony third. The Samsung LED last by a mile.

You spent $4000?!?! You can get any of the other three for MUCH less.
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post #8 of 112 Old 01-30-2012, 09:37 PM
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Originally Posted by RedOctober205 View Post

Both the Panasonic and Samsung plasmas would be the top two...a close race. Sony third. The Samsung LED last by a mile.

You spent $4000?!?! You can get any of the other three for MUCH less.


Yeah the sony and pana are both $2500ish the elite is the only 4k+ TV
you could toss in the Lg9800 as well in the mix
this sounds like a marketing deal to me though Sammy has lost a lot of its luster recently.
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post #9 of 112 Old 01-31-2012, 01:18 AM
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Originally Posted by sherm0712 View Post

Okay guys take it easy on me, I thought I had it all figured out but now I feel like I am more of a..............ummmm.........idiot

My take? You are not any kind of idiot, just not fully aware of all the choices out there. The fact that you came here to talk about it makes you inquisitive and therefore the opposite of ignorant, which is a very good thing.

I personally find the 65D8000 very, very wanting and wouldn't buy one. But if you like it, you should enjoy it. If you want to consider a plasma, I think both of your listed choices are clearly better displays. I agree the 65HX929 is really expensive, which is too bad, it's terrific too. The Sharp is bigger and perhaps slightly better, but it's a lowish-end, gigantic display. It's probably a more consistent performer than that Samsung, but I haven't spent enough time with them to really say that.

I hope that helps a tiny bit.

There is no difference in HDMI cables. If you can see the picture without visible dropouts or sparklies, the cable is working at 100%. No other cable will display a better version of that picture. You're simply wrong if you think there is a better digital cable than one that is already working.
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post #10 of 112 Old 01-31-2012, 08:43 AM
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Originally Posted by sherm0712 View Post

WOW! I feel bitch slapped and then some.

Okay guys take it easy on me, I thought I had it all figured out but now I feel like I am more of a..............ummmm.........idiot


Ok so educate me a little, I just got my 65inch 8000 series about a week ago and after dropping $4K on it I felt like a king, but right now not so much, since I still have time to return/exchange it, can you tell me what tv's are the REAL KINGS? XBR929 and Elite are out of my price range, I am not going over 4K, any ideas? Is the Sharp 70le735u a better choice or even worse? What about plasma in comparison?

As mentioned, the Sharp will a much more consistent performer as it is a full array panel. IMO, the three panels mentioned are the only ones worth considering from the LCD camp as they are the only ones who care about it doing right, full array w/ or w/o local dimming. Since those are outside the budget atm, look into the 65VT30 or 64D8000. If you prefer higher contrast and better motion resolution, than go with the Panasonic, if you place more importance on color fidelity and features (web browser and qwerty remote), go with the Samsung.
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post #11 of 112 Old 01-31-2012, 09:07 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Fanaticalism View Post

As mentioned, the Sharp will a much more consistent performer as it is a full array panel. IMO, the three panels mentioned are the only ones worth considering from the LCD camp as they are the only ones who care about it doing right, full array w/ or w/o local dimming. Since those are outside the budget atm, look into the 65VT30 or 64D8000. If you prefer higher contrast and better motion resolution, than go with the Panasonic, if you place more importance on color fidelity and features (web browser and qwerty remote), go with the Samsung.


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Originally Posted by rogo View Post

My take? You are not any kind of idiot, just not fully aware of all the choices out there. The fact that you came here to talk about it makes you inquisitive and therefore the opposite of ignorant, which is a very good thing.

I personally find the 65D8000 very, very wanting and wouldn't buy one. But if you like it, you should enjoy it. If you want to consider a plasma, I think both of your listed choices are clearly better displays. I agree the 65HX929 is really expensive, which is too bad, it's terrific too. The Sharp is bigger and perhaps slightly better, but it's a lowish-end, gigantic display. It's probably a more consistent performer than that Samsung, but I haven't spent enough time with them to really say that.

I hope that helps a tiny bit.



WOW thanks a million guys, this is all new to me what I am reading here and would you believe in my "friend circle" I am the genius when it comes to electronics? LOL I told all my friends about AVS and they should read up.

So back to the discussion, Okay, so the Sammy 65" 8000 series is out, Sharp would be my next choice then from what I see. But here is another question that is bugging me, when it comes to the new 3D technology, which is better, plasma or lcd/led?

The only reason I did not get plasma was coz 1-its a old technology coming to an end, 2- its very dark and dull and 3-its slow for gaming.

I am going to be a typical novice and state "what" will I be using the tv for, so here is the break down-

Gaming(MW3)-50%, 3D-20%, movies-25%, cable tv-5%

Now considering this, I ran to best buy and asked them what should I get and they discounted the un65d8000 from 4299.99 to 3999.99 w/bluray player and 3D glasses and I thought I got the deal of the century.... apparently not LOL

And since some one mentioned a "better deal/cheaper price", is there a secret cave where I could walk in and pick one up for cheaper?

and btw, THANK YOU!, ALL OF YOU!! YOU ARE THE KINGS!!!
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post #12 of 112 Old 01-31-2012, 10:43 AM
 
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The only reason I did not get plasma was coz 1-its a old technology coming to an end, 2- its very dark and dull and 3-its slow for gaming.

This is false.

1. Plasma is a mature technology and that is a good thing. It is established and fine tuned. To label either LCD or plasma tech as being older than the other serves no purpose. They have both been around a long time now. Also, both plasma and LCD will eventually make way for new display tech. Both have many more years of development ahead of them however.

2. You only need a display to be so bright. Both plasma and LCD can exceed any necessary level of brightness. Can an LCD be brighter than a plasma? Yes, but you wouldn't want to watch it with a brightness level set that high. An LCD can be cranked up higher than your eyes can tolerate for any length of time. Both can be calibrated to a more than acceptable level of brightness for both daytime and nighttime viewing. Plasma is not dull. Panasonic and Samsung plasma displays are among the most the most vivid and dynamic ever produced. The contrast between the deep black levels and bright color is extraordinary.

3. Plasma generally offers less lag for gaming than LCD. Honestly though, both technology's performing extremely well for gaming and it is no longer a concern at all.

If you want the best picture quality you have these options:

(in no particular order)
  • Elite ($4000+ for the 60")
  • Panasonic VT/GT/ST ($2500 - $3100 for the 65VT30, $2200 - $2400 for the 65GT30, $1800 - $2000 for the 65ST30)
  • Samsung (plasma) D8000/D7000 ($2100 - $2200 for the 64D7000 & $2300 - $2400 for the 64D8000)

If you like the Samsung, but don't care about the web browser...go with the 7000. Same picture quality as the 8000 with no web browser and a cheaper price tag.
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post #13 of 112 Old 01-31-2012, 11:14 AM - Thread Starter
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This is false.

1. Plasma is a mature technology and that is a good thing. It is established and fine tuned. To label either LCD or plasma tech as being older than the other serves no purpose. They have both been around a long time now. Also, both plasma and LCD will eventually make way for new display tech. Both have many more years of development ahead of them however.

2. You only need a display to be so bright. Both plasma and LCD can exceed any necessary level of brightness. Can an LCD be brighter than a plasma? Yes, but you wouldn't want to watch it with a brightness level set that high. An LCD can be cranked up higher than your eyes can tolerate for any length of time. Both can be calibrated to a more than acceptable level of brightness for both daytime and nighttime viewing. Plasma is not dull. Panasonic and Samsung plasma displays are among the most the most vivid and dynamic ever produced. The contrast between the deep black levels and bright color is extraordinary.

3. Plasma generally offers less lag for gaming than LCD. Honestly though, both technology's performing extremely well for gaming and it is no longer a concern at all.

If you want the best picture quality you have these options:

(in no particular order)
  • Elite ($4000+ for the 60")
  • Panasonic VT/GT/ST ($2500 - $3100 for the 65VT30, $2200 - $2400 for the 65GT30, $1800 - $2000 for the 65ST30)
  • Samsung (plasma) D8000/D7000 ($2100 - $2200 for the 64D7000 & $2300 - $2400 for the 64D8000)

If you like the Samsung, but don't care about the web browser...go with the 7000. Same picture quality as the 8000 with no web browser and a cheaper price tag.


WOW ok, SCHOOLED again! This is really embarrassing but at the same time exciting, I was on the wrong side of the planet this whole time and had no clue.

Thank you, if that is the case then I might get the samsung 8000 only because I want 3D (Please don't bitch slap me again LOL)

But one thing I don't understand, why no one wants to talk about the Sharp 70le735u? Is it considered bottom of the barrel?

And where do you guys find the Sharp Elite 60" for $4000? Bestbuy is the only place I know that sells them and its almost $5K there? Where do you guys usually buy'em?

Thank you again!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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post #14 of 112 Old 01-31-2012, 11:22 AM
 
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WOW ok, SCHOOLED again! This is really embarrassing but at the same time exciting, I was on the wrong side of the planet this whole time and had no clue.

Thank you, if that is the case then I might get the samsung 8000 only because I want 3D (Please don't bitch slap me again LOL)

But one thing I don't understand, why no one wants to talk about the Sharp 70le735u? Is it considered bottom of the barrel?

And where do you guys find the Sharp Elite 60" for $4000? Bestbuy is the only place I know that sells them and its almost $5K there? Where do you guys usually buy'em?

Thank you again!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

No need to be embarrassed at all. We've all been there. If you want 3D, both the Panasonic and Samsung plasmas are solid choices.

I wouldn't consider the Sharp to be the bottom of the barrel. Other than it's actual size it just doesn't measure up in performance. It's good, just not as good as the others. Dealers all over the country sell the Elite and some offer great deals. I highly recommend Cleveland Plasma and Value Electronics.
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post #15 of 112 Old 01-31-2012, 11:29 AM
 
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You have the right attitude, Sherm.

Speaking of Value Electronics, seek out their 2011 shootout of the top tier TVs (involving several pro calibrators) via Google (or your search engine of choice). You will find that the results mirror what is being stated here.
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post #16 of 112 Old 01-31-2012, 04:56 PM
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Sherm,

You can good deals from BBY if you talk to the right people. You will always pay a little more but the no frills return policy goes a long way. Put it to you this way, if you purchased the 65D8000 from some without a similar return policy, you would be stuck with that display, and feeling a case of buyers remorse.

I have the 70" Elite and got a good price on it from Magnolia/BBY.

I am sure you could walk away with the 60" elite for the same price you paid for the 65D8000.

Where are you located, btw? Reason I ask, is that from what I have seen on these boards, the BBY on the east coast are more liberal in their pricing than others.
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post #17 of 112 Old 01-31-2012, 05:16 PM
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Sherm... Let me guess: you from sales/marketing line?
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post #18 of 112 Old 01-31-2012, 08:19 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by specuvestor View Post

Sherm... Let me guess: you from sales/marketing line?

Kinda related to, that is a good guess, what made you think so?

Anyways, again, can't thank you all enough.

SO I did a little recon at Bestbuy, I don't know why but I am still not convinced on plasma's, they just look dull and gloomy, maybe it is just me, the closest I came to liking was the panasonic VT30, it is a little more brighter but the screen looks very reflective.

I almost got the Sharp 70le735u today, but stopped to think about it but I returned my sammy 8000 series regardless.

Well, thanks you all, I am going to make a decision and let you all know what I ended it up with, having a real hard time with this
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post #19 of 112 Old 01-31-2012, 08:38 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Fanaticalism View Post

Sherm,

You can good deals from BBY if you talk to the right people. You will always pay a little more but the no frills return policy goes a long way. Put it to you this way, if you purchased the 65D8000 from some without a similar return policy, you would be stuck with that display, and feeling a case of buyers remorse.

I have the 70" Elite and got a good price on it from Magnolia/BBY.

I am sure you could walk away with the 60" elite for the same price you paid for the 65D8000.

Where are you located, btw? Reason I ask, is that from what I have seen on these boards, the BBY on the east coast are more liberal in their pricing than others.


I am from long island NY, yes BB guys are usually very helpful with the price.
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post #20 of 112 Old 01-31-2012, 08:50 PM
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Well, why not add one more thing to the mix- Pro. calibration. And I do not mean the jokers from Best Buy. I own 2 plasmas, and LCD and a CRT- all HD. I had one of my plasmas pro calibrated and it's the best $350 I spent on home entertainment. Chad B did a fantastic job on my Sammy plasma, wrung every bit of performance out of it.

At this point, with many years of HD under my belt, for me I'd opt for a slightly less expensive set and put the money I saved toward pro calibration. I'm firmly in the plasma camp, at this point there is not a single LCD based unit I'd consider, too many drawbacks. Viewing angle is one of the biggest, especially in my setup. Motion handling is another, HATE the SOE, even if it's tamed motion on LCD panels does nothing for me.
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post #21 of 112 Old 01-31-2012, 09:24 PM - Thread Starter
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Well, why not add one more thing to the mix- Pro. calibration. And I do not mean the jokers from Best Buy. I own 2 plasmas, and LCD and a CRT- all HD. I had one of my plasmas pro calibrated and it's the best $350 I spent on home entertainment. Chad B did a fantastic job on my Sammy plasma, wrung every bit of performance out of it.

At this point, with many years of HD under my belt, for me I'd opt for a slightly less expensive set and put the money I saved toward pro calibration. I'm firmly in the plasma camp, at this point there is not a single LCD based unit I'd consider, too many drawbacks. Viewing angle is one of the biggest, especially in my setup. Motion handling is another, HATE the SOE, even if it's tamed motion on LCD panels does nothing for me.


Funny you said that, the guy at the bestbuy said the same thing, he was willing to throw in "PRO calibration" for free.

So Sir Matt, what do you think of this idea, I get either the VT30 or the PN64D8000 and let them do the free pro calibration and maybe that would fix the plasma cloud in my head? Do you think over all brightness can be fixed that way too?
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post #22 of 112 Old 01-31-2012, 09:33 PM
 
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Funny you said that, the guy at the bestbuy said the same thing, he was willing to throw in "PRO calibration" for free.

So Sir Matt, what do you think of this idea, I get either the VT30 or the PN64D8000 and let them do the free pro calibration and maybe that would fix the plasma cloud in my head? Do you think over all brightness can be fixed that way too?

Calibration is terrific...but not from Best Buy.
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post #23 of 112 Old 01-31-2012, 09:49 PM - Thread Starter
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Calibration is terrific...but not from Best Buy.


Oh true, but since its free whats the harm? or you don't recommend that period? and if not BB, where should I get it done from?

Thank you!!
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Matt already recommended one (Chad B) who posts on this forum.

Check this thread for many more: http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=586330

I have personally had 2 calibrations done by David Abrams of Avical fame: www.avical.com
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post #25 of 112 Old 01-31-2012, 11:01 PM
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If a calibration is "free" that is about what it's worth - nothing.

When Chad did my calibration, he easily spent 5 hours here, working hard to get everything correct. There is a lot involved, plus a lot of very expensive equipment. This is not dropping a disk in the Blu ray player and adjusting the user settings.

Take a look in the forum posted and find several pro calibrators that operate in the area you live in, chad is mostly in the central Midwest -Ohio, Michigan, Indiana and that vicinity.
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post #26 of 112 Old 01-31-2012, 11:05 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sherm0712 View Post

Kinda related to, that is a good guess, what made you think so?

My job requires me to do quite a lot of guesses

Your "what to buy" thread is much more successful than the other threads LOL And I'm not sayiing it in a bad way.

The other posters have good suggestions except for "calibration". I think firstly you have to ask yourself what do you know about calibration and the value it brings, before you fork out the dough. Calibration brings out the native source at its best and IMHO it takes some time to appreciate it.

Ask yourself whether you like pictures that looks rich and bright, or you like pictures somewhat duller, like looking out of a window.

My 2cts
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post #27 of 112 Old 01-31-2012, 11:59 PM
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Sherm, since you live on LI, why not take ride up to Scarsdale and drop in on Value Electronics. I'm pretty sure Robert still has his Shootout Wall up.( I would call to confirm though.) Anyway, if it's still up you will have a chance to see alll the best displays calibrated and side by side.
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post #28 of 112 Old 02-01-2012, 07:41 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Vinnie97 View Post

Speaking of Value Electronics, seek out their 2011 shootout of the top tier TVs (involving several pro calibrators) via Google (or your search engine of choice). You will find that the results mirror what is being stated here.

I did and watched all the youtube videos related to it, I finally understood what local dimming meant LOL and yea, I agree, nothing will beat the Elite, wow, wish I could afford it!


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Originally Posted by Matt L View Post

If a calibration is "free" that is about what it's worth - nothing.

When Chad did my calibration, he easily spent 5 hours here, working hard to get everything correct. There is a lot involved, plus a lot of very expensive equipment. This is not dropping a disk in the Blu ray player and adjusting the user settings.

Take a look in the forum posted and find several pro calibrators that operate in the area you live in, chad is mostly in the central Midwest -Ohio, Michigan, Indiana and that vicinity.

Got it! I am going to go through the forums and see if I could find some one local from here. I think I am going to go with the Sharp 70le735u and have it calibrated professionally so I save money and get a great picture coz it is full array back lit led.


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Originally Posted by specuvestor View Post

My job requires me to do quite a lot of guesses

Your "what to buy" thread is much more successful than the other threads LOL And I'm not sayiing it in a bad way.

The other posters have good suggestions except for "calibration". I think firstly you have to ask yourself what do you know about calibration and the value it brings, before you fork out the dough. Calibration brings out the native source at its best and IMHO it takes some time to appreciate it.

Ask yourself whether you like pictures that looks rich and bright, or you like pictures somewhat duller, like looking out of a window.

My 2cts

Well, This wasn't a "what to buy" thread, I know it kinda seems that way but since I bought my D8000 and I was really proud that I did, I wanted to see really how does my $4K measure up against other tv's, so after hearing it from a "techie" co-worker and googling, I ended up in AVS with my cocky foot first calling my TV the "king", and then I got smacked around and I got a reality check so I returned my D8000 and now I am learning, instead of being stubborn and arguing that my tv is the best, i opted to learn and listen so in the end I do end up with the King of tv (or atleast the queen)

Ok well I like the rich and bright picture, natural is ok but when I stand in front of a plasma at bestbuy or pcrichard, the screen looks doomy gloomy, I feel like I have sunglasses on, looks faded kinda.


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Originally Posted by rockaway1836 View Post

Sherm, since you live on LI, why not take ride up to Scarsdale and drop in on Value Electronics. I'm pretty sure Robert still has his Shootout Wall up.( I would call to confirm though.) Anyway, if it's still up you will have a chance to see alll the best displays calibrated and side by side.


Hey man, Thats a great idea! I mean even though its quiet a hike I am going to ride up there in next couple of days and report my findings. Hopefully that will help me make a better decision. Thanks a million!!!
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post #29 of 112 Old 02-01-2012, 08:41 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by RedOctober205 View Post

This is false.

1. Plasma is a mature technology and that is a good thing. It is established and fine tuned. To label either LCD or plasma tech as being older than the other serves no purpose. They have both been around a long time now. Also, both plasma and LCD will eventually make way for new display tech. Both have many more years of development ahead of them however.

2. You only need a display to be so bright. Both plasma and LCD can exceed any necessary level of brightness. Can an LCD be brighter than a plasma? Yes, but you wouldn't want to watch it with a brightness level set that high. An LCD can be cranked up higher than your eyes can tolerate for any length of time. Both can be calibrated to a more than acceptable level of brightness for both daytime and nighttime viewing. Plasma is not dull. Panasonic and Samsung plasma displays are among the most the most vivid and dynamic ever produced. The contrast between the deep black levels and bright color is extraordinary.

3. Plasma generally offers less lag for gaming than LCD. Honestly though, both technology's performing extremely well for gaming and it is no longer a concern at all.

If you want the best picture quality you have these options:

(in no particular order)
  • Elite ($4000+ for the 60")
  • Panasonic VT/GT/ST ($2500 - $3100 for the 65VT30, $2200 - $2400 for the 65GT30, $1800 - $2000 for the 65ST30)
  • Samsung (plasma) D8000/D7000 ($2100 - $2200 for the 64D7000 & $2300 - $2400 for the 64D8000)

If you like the Samsung, but don't care about the web browser...go with the 7000. Same picture quality as the 8000 with no web browser and a cheaper price tag.


Hey Red, after some extensive research I have a question for you, what do you have to say about the burn in, ghosting and IR issue with plasmas?
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post #30 of 112 Old 02-01-2012, 10:47 AM
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Originally Posted by sherm0712 View Post


Hey Red, after some extensive research I have a question for you, what do you have to say about the burn in, ghosting and IR issue with plasmas?

Ghosting is an artifact of LCD tech due to interpolated frames.

Burn in is possible, but not as likely as in the past.

It is normal and not permanent. Not a major concern, IMO. Some warranties protect against burn in , at least I know BestBuy does.
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