Black Spots on OLED Screens? Sony Vita - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 30 Old 02-28-2012, 12:05 AM - Thread Starter
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I bought a Vita recently and love it. However, I noticed some black spots on the screen during dark screens. Apparently this is normal of OLED tech. My spots are in any major areas of the screen and are off to the sides. However, some people's spots and larger and more in the center of the screen.

I can handle this on a Vita but not on a 5-8K TV.

Is this a problem with OLED Tech? Can anyone elaborate on the issue? Is this a downfall of the technology?

I also see blooming. I thought OLED wouldn't have Bloom issues.

Thoughts?

Thanks,

Cold
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post #2 of 30 Old 02-28-2012, 06:52 AM
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No, it's not "normal" for OLED. Not sure why anyone would say that besides trying to side-step the issue. It might be true that low quality OLEDs might do this, but anyone producing high quality ones wouldn't.

So yes, if the Vita uses some lower quality OLED, it's possible the "black spot" phenomena is within manufacturing tolerances for that specific screen. And it could be said that it is "normal" for the Vita or any other device that uses it.

The Sony Vita, Samsung Galaxy & Microsoft Zune HD all use Samsung OLED screens and they all exhibit these black spots.

To show you otherwise...

If you look at reviews for Sony's professional series OLEDs you won't see any mention of this. Because it's not there.

The "blooming" must be from some AR material or coating/layer that's causing the diffraction. I guess it might be possible to design an OLED that could have light leakage. I've never seen an article on one.

...

The Samsung/LG OLED TVs will be out later this year/next. If these problems exist you can guarantee someone will make a big stink about it I never heard anything about it with the Sony OLED TV or the Sony OLED reference monitors.

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post #3 of 30 Old 02-28-2012, 07:20 AM
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While I love the OLED screen in my PS Vita, here's a uniformity shot of the Samsung OLED in mine (exposure setting on my S8000 set to +2.0, and ISO 100):

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post #4 of 30 Old 02-28-2012, 07:24 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tapioca Cold View Post

I bought a Vita recently and love it. However, I noticed some black spots on the screen during dark screens. Apparently this is normal of OLED tech. My spots are in any major areas of the screen and are off to the sides. However, some people's spots and larger and more in the center of the screen.

I can handle this on a Vita but not on a 5-8K TV.

Is this a problem with OLED Tech? Can anyone elaborate on the issue? Is this a downfall of the technology?

I also see blooming. I thought OLED wouldn't have Bloom issues.

Thoughts?

Thanks,

Cold

I think the blooming is mostly in your head (eyes viewing brightness), and I believe any spreading of light through the front glass is extremely minimal (no more than any other display tech - LCD/PDP/CRT).

I'd imagine that the Samsung OLED screens in the PS Vita are printed displays, so I don't think a comparison between the Vita and the PVM/BVMs can be made (Samsung OLED vs Sony OLED).
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post #5 of 30 Old 02-28-2012, 07:41 AM
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In all fairness, here's the same settings and display image, but on a PSP-3000 (final rev of the PSP):

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post #6 of 30 Old 02-28-2012, 07:46 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tapioca Cold View Post

I bought a Vita recently and love it. However, I noticed some black spots on the screen during dark screens. Apparently this is normal of OLED tech. My spots are in any major areas of the screen and are off to the sides. However, some people's spots and larger and more in the center of the screen.

I can handle this on a Vita but not on a 5-8K TV.

Is this a problem with OLED Tech? Can anyone elaborate on the issue? Is this a downfall of the technology?

I also see blooming. I thought OLED wouldn't have Bloom issues.

Thoughts?

A long time ago we used to make experimental OLED devices at my work and black spotting was a cathode defect and/or degradation issue. Essentially a particle or pinhole in the cathode would be a point source for degradation via environmental exposure, thermal degradation, or layer delamination. Dark spots would start small and increase in size over time. I'm not sure this is the same phenomenon you are talking about though as you say it is only on a dark screen. Just speculating but that sounds more like a uneven loss of efficiency, backplane or charge trapping issue. As the luminance is decreased the % brightness difference increases making it more obvious.

Over thinking, over analyzing separates the body from the mind
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post #7 of 30 Old 02-28-2012, 09:22 AM - Thread Starter
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it's true. check out thr forums.

I want to know why sony got out of the OLED business. I think we will find out in Q3.

i want to name this phenomena before anyone else does. Kinda like: blooming, flashlighting, dse, rainbow effect, trails, screen door effect, etc.

I will call it the "RPT' meaning - reverse pixel tear. What do you think? Maybe "Black night spots" or "PBB" - Pixels that are blacker than Black...or...
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post #8 of 30 Old 02-28-2012, 10:00 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by xrox View Post

A long time ago we used to make experimental OLED devices at my work and black spotting was a cathode defect and/or degradation issue. Essentially a particle or pinhole in the cathode would be a point source for degradation via environmental exposure, thermal degradation, or layer delamination. Dark spots would start small and increase in size over time. I'm not sure this is the same phenomenon you are talking about though as you say it is only on a dark screen. Just speculating but that sounds more like a uneven loss of efficiency, backplane or charge trapping issue. As the luminance is decreased the % brightness difference increases making it more obvious.

AFAIK all of Samsung's smaller OLED screens are like this out of the gate. Your issue with your samples in the lab sounds like contamination and degradation from both heat and your contaminates.

If you look back you'll find the same "black spot" comments by Galaxy and Zune owners with Samsung OLED screens long before this post.

It'll be interesting to see how the TVs stack up when they get released. All of the OLED TV's to date haven't had this issue (Sony) that I have ever read.

-SiGGy
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post #9 of 30 Old 02-28-2012, 10:07 AM
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For anyone with interest and time to kill

Some of the information in these articles could be deprecated by now. One of them is circa 1994. But I bet a lot of the information still stands.

http://www.epotek.com/SSCDocs/whitep...Paper%2054.pdf

http://apl.aip.org/resource/1/applab...Authorized=yes

-SiGGy
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post #10 of 30 Old 02-28-2012, 10:26 AM
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I took this out of my 1st post. So I'll post it here instead. Seems like the issue goes away once the panel warms up. Can't confirm I don't own one

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In the guide/quickstart/pamphlet that comes with the system it says that this may be normal and goes away once the screen warms up, which is the case for me. The warm-up time is usualy about 30-45 minutes and then I dont notice it anymore. I have noticed however that the more I use my system, the less noticable it has become so I think it may in fact be going away. It may just be a break-in period type thing. I have a Samsung Galaxy S Vibrant that has an oled display too and the manual does say that it needs to "break-in" for the screen to be at it's best. I mention that because I read an article saying that the Vita's screen is manufactured by Samsung.


-SiGGy
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post #11 of 30 Old 02-28-2012, 12:21 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tapioca Cold View Post

it's true. check out thr forums.

I want to know why sony got out of the OLED business. I think we will find out in Q3.

Because they have no expertise in making TVs; they haven't been a primary TV manufacturer this millennium. In order to make OLEDs, they'd first have to invest billions in fabs, then successfully commercialize the products. They don't have the wherewithal to do that.

When they say things like, "We are pursuing our new CLED but we are also pursuing OLED" as if you can pursue OLED as a hobby, you understand where they are situated. They have lost their "can".

There is no difference in HDMI cables. If you can see the picture without visible dropouts or sparklies, the cable is working at 100%. No other cable will display a better version of that picture. You're simply wrong if you think there is a better digital cable than one that is already working. (Oh, and plasma didn't die because of logistics problems, nor does OLED ship in big boxes because it comes from Korea.)
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post #12 of 30 Old 02-29-2012, 01:00 AM - Thread Starter
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oh, i did not know sony didn't make tv's. Oh, wait. this tv i'm using now is a sony. what the heck?
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post #13 of 30 Old 02-29-2012, 01:16 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tapioca Cold View Post

oh, i did not know sony didn't make tv's. Oh, wait. this tv i'm using now is a sony. what the heck?

What the heck?

Here's the heck.

Sony puts together TVs using panels sourced from other people. It has done this for more than a decade. The closest it has come to making the actual guts of a TV was a joint venture when it bought into an existing Samsung LCD fab that is has since divested its share of.

It has no idea how to build a flat-panel fab for TV manufacturing as it has literally not done so in the HD era.

The funny thing is I never said what you ridiculously parroted back.

There is no difference in HDMI cables. If you can see the picture without visible dropouts or sparklies, the cable is working at 100%. No other cable will display a better version of that picture. You're simply wrong if you think there is a better digital cable than one that is already working. (Oh, and plasma didn't die because of logistics problems, nor does OLED ship in big boxes because it comes from Korea.)
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post #14 of 30 Old 02-29-2012, 01:17 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tapioca Cold View Post

oh, i did not know sony didn't make tv's. Oh, wait. this tv i'm using now is a sony. what the heck?

What he meant was Sony doesn't manufacture panels-- they don't. Unless your Sony tv is more than a few years old it's actually a Samsung panel in that set. Now, that doesn't mean that Sony doesn't make tvs. On the contrary-- that would be like me saying Mazda doesn't make cars because ford makes their engines!

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post #15 of 30 Old 02-29-2012, 06:41 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sage11x View Post

What he meant was Sony doesn't manufacture panels-- they don't. Unless your Sony tv is more than a few years old it's actually a Samsung panel in that set. Now, that doesn't mean that Sony doesn't make tvs. On the contrary-- that would be like me saying Mazda doesn't make cars because ford makes their engines!

Not to confuse things, my post is a little off-topic but this isn't entirely accurate for Sony's professional line. They do still have a fab for their professional series OLED panels

http://www.oled-info.com/interview-s...roduct-manager

-SiGGy
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post #16 of 30 Old 02-29-2012, 09:02 AM - Thread Starter
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ah, sorry Mr. ah...SIGGY sir. i meant to say... "we will find out why sony stopped 'selling' OLED in Q3"

Sorry... ehem...sir.

thanks sage11x.
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post #17 of 30 Old 02-29-2012, 09:27 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tapioca Cold View Post

ah, sorry Mr. ah...SIGGY sir. i meant to say... "we will find out why sony stopped 'selling' OLED in Q3"

Sorry... ehem...sir.

thanks sage11x.


huh.

Why are you being rude?

They never stopped selling OLED, in fact they just started to on their professional line. A previous posts explains why they haven't done so on their main consumer lines.

I took the time to look-up some info on a topic you started and this the way you respond?

Did I say something in bad context? My response wasn't even to you.

Anyway, I can tell my responses/info are not appreciated so I'll bug out.

-SiGGy
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post #18 of 30 Old 02-29-2012, 01:46 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rogo View Post

What the heck?

Here's the heck.

...The closest it has come to making the actual guts of a TV was a joint venture when it bought into an existing Samsung LCD fab that is has since divested its share of.

It has no idea how to build a flat-panel fab for TV manufacturing as it has literally not done so in the HD era.

Samsung is not the only joint venture that Sony has/had.

I don't know the current status of it but they also have had (at least in the past several years) a joint venture with Toyota for building LCD displays.

Also back in 2010 one of the process/equipment/developer engineers for a large equipment/chemical company that I work with frequently was somewhere in Southern Japan helping to install new equipment in a Sony LCD fab there.

I think that it is somewhat myopic to say that they have no manufacturing capability and/or experience with making their own panels. They do and will continue to.
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post #19 of 30 Old 02-29-2012, 04:01 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TNG View Post

Samsung is not the only joint venture that Sony has/had.

I don't know the current status of it but they also have had (at least in the past several years) a joint venture with Toyota for building LCD displays.

Also back in 2010 one of the process/equipment/developer engineers for a large equipment/chemical company that I work with frequently was somewhere in Southern Japan helping to install new equipment in a Sony LCD fab there.

I think that it is somewhat myopic to say that they have no manufacturing capability and/or experience with making their own panels. They do and will continue to.

OK, noted. It's perhaps fairer to say that for all of their televisions larger than 40" they've been buying panels either through S-LCD or from other 3rd parties. None of those are made in house.

To that extent, they have very limited experience making their own panels in the past decade. Because they have been involved in making some panels on their own or with other JV partners, it's an overstatement on my part to characterize them as having no particular relevant experience.

There is no difference in HDMI cables. If you can see the picture without visible dropouts or sparklies, the cable is working at 100%. No other cable will display a better version of that picture. You're simply wrong if you think there is a better digital cable than one that is already working. (Oh, and plasma didn't die because of logistics problems, nor does OLED ship in big boxes because it comes from Korea.)
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post #20 of 30 Old 02-29-2012, 07:01 PM
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Sony makes OLED. Vita uses Samsung OLED.

Enough said.
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post #21 of 30 Old 03-01-2012, 04:20 AM
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Here's my screen over-exposed.



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post #22 of 30 Old 03-01-2012, 06:10 AM
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^^^

nteresting. thank you for posting the pics
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post #23 of 30 Old 03-01-2012, 08:37 AM
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Loved the look of the new galaxy note which has super amoled screen.Wonder if they exhibit the same problem.In the store they were just amazing looking

Matt
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post #24 of 30 Old 03-01-2012, 10:10 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MK24ever View Post

Here's my screen over-exposed.

Looks like I got a better yield than you!
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post #25 of 30 Old 03-05-2012, 02:23 PM
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All vitas display this issue, unfortunately. However, they differ in quantity and pattern, and a few are lucky enough to have next to nothing, but its the exception. I have personally had my hands on seven vitas, and they all had a moderate amount of black splotching except one, which had only a small amount. I have made peace with it after a few swaps with amazon, which i made for another screen issue (vertical lines). However, if you can not, you should probably wait and see if sony straightens it out in the future. Also, unless its particularly bad, i do not suggest swapping it out because of black splotches, especially if nothing else is wrong with your unit. Out of the vitas ive seen, half had the vertical line problem. You dont want to risk getting this all too common problem, believe me.

The black spots are an eye sore during all black loading screens, but if anything is on the screen, like some words or graphics, then its really not a problem.
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post #26 of 30 Old 03-05-2012, 04:49 PM
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Come on, just admit you're wrong.

"Q: Can you tell us where the OLEDs are manufactured?

A: Initial development started in 1994 and was housed at our Atsugi design center just south of Tokyo. The fab is in Nagoya Japan at Sony Mobile Display, built in 2008. That's about all I can share about the facility, except that it is constantly working to improve the technology and the production process."

Or are you going to try and tell us BROADCAST quality HD displays used in making FILMS and High Def Medical Imaging are NOT HD?

Quote:
Originally Posted by rogo View Post

What the heck?

Here's the heck.

Sony puts together TVs using panels sourced from other people. It has done this for more than a decade. The closest it has come to making the actual guts of a TV was a joint venture when it bought into an existing Samsung LCD fab that is has since divested its share of.

It has no idea how to build a flat-panel fab for TV manufacturing as it has literally not done so in the HD era.

The funny thing is I never said what you ridiculously parroted back.


buytme
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post #27 of 30 Old 03-05-2012, 05:07 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by David_B View Post

Come on, just admit you're wrong.

Seriously, stop going back through weeks of my post solely to troll them. It's pathetic. Sony does not make its own TV panels.
Quote:


"Q: Can you tell us where the OLEDs are manufactured?

A: Initial development started in 1994 and was housed at our Atsugi design center just south of Tokyo. The fab is in Nagoya Japan at Sony Mobile Display, built in 2008. That's about all I can share about the facility, except that it is constantly working to improve the technology and the production process."

Or are you going to try and tell us BROADCAST quality HD displays used in making FILMS and High Def Medical Imaging are NOT HD?

I'm going to tell you they are not TVs because, well, they are not TVs. They are tiny broadcast monitors sold to studios and broadcast trucks. It's a nice little business that moves as many units in a year as my local Best Buy sells TVs in a good weekend.

Just stop. Every time you try to smack me down, you basically lose the round. You attempt to re-parse what I said to make it mean something else or you simply state it as something else entirely. When we go at it, I basically destroy every point you make piece by piece. If we were scoring, it'd be like 500-7 right now.

The fact you log in and search out my posts from a week ago and attempt to troll them only to -- again -- be smacked down with (a) the facts of what I was saying (b) the truth makes this more and more ridiculous.

What you really want to do is put me on ignore so you can stop your urge to take what I write and try to mislead thousands of other AVSers into believing I'm saying something entirely different than what I said.

As noted elsewhere in a discussion with TNG, I did acknowledge that Sony makes some amount of smaller LCD panels for some product lines, but they make nothing in the 40+" class using any technology and they haven't for year. Their investments in S-LCD and with Sharp are as close as they have come to even having access to a modern LCD fab and in neither case did they have anything to do with developing those large-motherglass fabs.

Sony is devoid of relevant expertise in making big, flat-panel TVs and they are financially incapable of investing much in it at this point. These are simple truisms about which I am right.

The news in the other thread about them mumbling about OLED TVs for next year suggests they may be sourcing LG OLED panels to do that because as everyone who follows this knows, Sony has no 8G OLED fab even on the drawing board.

It's absolutely true that Sony has been a developer of display technology for years. What's more important is that they've failed to be an important commercializer of large-size LCD TV panels and PDP for more than a decade. This appears likely to continue with OLED as their underinvestment ensures they will continue to be a buyer of other people's panels. That model has, again, yielded one profitable TV company this century (a low-end mfr. called Vizio, which is profitable, but in no interesting way) and has produced more red ink for Sony than just about anything they've every engaged in -- even PS3, which has probably turned the corner, although I'm not close enough to it to be sure (or to care).

There is no difference in HDMI cables. If you can see the picture without visible dropouts or sparklies, the cable is working at 100%. No other cable will display a better version of that picture. You're simply wrong if you think there is a better digital cable than one that is already working. (Oh, and plasma didn't die because of logistics problems, nor does OLED ship in big boxes because it comes from Korea.)
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post #28 of 30 Old 11-04-2012, 05:57 PM
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Recently bought the vita. Perfect whites no bad pixels, no dust under the screen. I have a bunch of black spots though... Around 10 or so, only 2-3 of them are really annoying since they're visible during gameplay on some dark images. Take a look at the picture I've taken and tell me how bad of a problem it is? Is it worth trying to swap for another one or I'll end up gettin even worse one? Thanks!

Here's how it sorta looks in real life
16715147.jpg


The same, but overexposed image to better demonstrate black dots
trtram.jpg
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post #29 of 30 Old 11-07-2012, 08:31 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by xrox View Post


A long time ago we used to make experimental OLED devices at my work and black spotting was a cathode defect and/or degradation issue. Essentially a particle or pinhole in the cathode would be a point source for degradation via environmental exposure, thermal degradation, or layer delamination. Dark spots would start small and increase in size over time. I'm not sure this is the same phenomenon you are talking about though as you say it is only on a dark screen. Just speculating but that sounds more like a uneven loss of efficiency, backplane or charge trapping issue. As the luminance is decreased the % brightness difference increases making it more obvious.

This is different. I know what the other thing you mention is. I have seen it. Just search on " GP2X Wiz pixel plague ". Those little systems used dodgy OLED panels and frequently people would complain that a few blotches would appear then spread through the whole screen like the plague. It seemed to me that the cheap screens were delaminating. Many times it was reported after drops or exposure to drastic temperature changes like being left in a freezing car then being brought into a warm house, also exposure to extreme humidity seemed to cause it.

This other thing seems to be slight issues with the TFTs not completely shutting off evenly at low brightnesses. As soon as you get past a certain brightness the spots are completely gone, you don't even see a shadow of them.

The Galaxy Tab 7.7 has similar issues and adds a pattern of dark circles instead of the random blobs. Maybe caused by marking from a suction cup array that handles the glass?
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post #30 of 30 Old 11-07-2012, 08:34 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mike28 View Post

Recently bought the vita. Perfect whites no bad pixels, no dust under the screen. I have a bunch of black spots though... Around 10 or so, only 2-3 of them are really annoying since they're visible during gameplay on some dark images. Take a look at the picture I've taken and tell me how bad of a problem it is? Is it worth trying to swap for another one or I'll end up gettin even worse one? Thanks!
Here's how it sorta looks in real life
16715147.jpg
The same, but overexposed image to better demonstrate black dots
trtram.jpg

They all do it so don't bother replacing. You could get one worse or get one with bad pixel (s).
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