Is the "New" UPP a price fixing tool to save the industry ? - Page 3 - AVS Forum
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post #61 of 91 Old 03-17-2012, 06:44 PM
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Well... how effective will UPP be if the majority of reliable and high volume sellers disregard it or only view it as a guide?

And what are the chances that some sellers have a separate deal/agreement/waiver?

Could it be that UPP is designed simply to control smaller and/or unwanted/unreliable sellers, or to steer buyers?

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post #62 of 91 Old 03-18-2012, 12:10 AM
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^^^ hello stranger
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post #63 of 91 Old 03-19-2012, 09:37 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mailiang View Post

This falls in the same vein as polices initiated when I was in the car audio industry. As the Regional Sales Manager for a car audio franchise, I acted as a liaison between the manufacturers & authorized dealers. Part of my duties was to actively enforce exclusivity agreements. This included enforcement of MAP's. Dealers caught discounting particularly higher end products like Pioneer Ellite, Alpine and Eclipse were issued a warning. If the practice continued they would lose the line.


Ian

That's right. And all along you could buy Pioneer, Alpine and Eclipse at 25% less somewhere else, so only the "authorized" dealers got hurt. Then if you tell Best Buy or Costco they had to agree to not beat prices, etc, they tell you they don't need those 100,000 units. They'll buy something else. So now Costco gets a "secret" deal everybody else finds out about anyway.

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post #64 of 91 Old 03-23-2012, 07:40 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by andy sullivan View Post

Having sales will not create better profit margins, and that is the goal. Maybe it will work for the higher end 3D models but I doubt it. With Sharp pumping out 70" models for under $2K, and 80"ers for under $3500 it looks like survival of the fittest. This new strategy is a desperate grasp by some companies to maintain a status quo that will never be the same. As the price for OLED starts to come down and China ramps up production I doubt they will care what Sony and Toshiba, and Panasonic etc think. LCD and plasma will soon go the way of DLP and LCOS.

Good OLED won't be cheap for years.

"Bring out yer dead!".."Wait I'm not dead yet!"..(Sound Austrian here) "WRONG !!" (You know what happens next..)
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post #65 of 91 Old 03-23-2012, 10:21 PM
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Originally Posted by Otto Pylot View Post

^^^ hello stranger

Hello Handsome. Are you checking out the new sets this year too?

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post #66 of 91 Old 03-24-2012, 11:39 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sheshechic View Post

Hello Handsome. Are you checking out the new sets this year too?

Just for informational purposes only. My LD520 is still looking mahvelous and plays just fabulously with the Panasonic BDT-210! Checked my cals a few months back and the settings haven't shown any drift. Whoo hoo!
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post #67 of 91 Old 03-28-2012, 11:32 AM
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I finally found this. I'd planned to respond sooner but lost my notification.

Awesome about your LD520, I'm so happy for you. I gave up since my LD550 isn't going to please me as much as I'd hoped. Not having an IPS panel irritates me. I should have returned it, but hey, I was "young" then. I'm planning on a big plasma this year and to have D-Nice calibrate it and my Panasonic G25 so my tinkering with the AVS 709 will be limited to the 52LD550 and 42LB5D.

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post #68 of 91 Old 03-29-2012, 03:03 PM
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well looks like this might be too late for the b & m stores.

bb anouncing today that they are closing 50 stores and downsizing dozen others.

sounds very similar to what cc did before they died.

neflixis our nemesis
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post #69 of 91 Old 03-30-2012, 12:04 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mr. wally View Post

well looks like this might be too late for the b & m stores.

bb anouncing today that they are closing 50 stores and downsizing dozen others.

sounds very similar to what cc did before they died.

Best Buy is not in the same dire straits as Circuit City, at least not yet. They are opening 100 mobile stores while closing 100 big boxes. They are also rolling out more of their smaller format stores in some regions.

But, they lack a major national competitor and they are standing alone in a changing business. Their long-run survival is anything-but guaranteed.

There is no difference in HDMI cables. If you can see the picture without visible dropouts or sparklies, the cable is working at 100%. No other cable will display a better version of that picture. You're simply wrong if you think there is a better digital cable than one that is already working. (Oh, and plasma didn't die because of logistics problems, nor does OLED ship in big boxes because it comes from Korea.)
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post #70 of 91 Old 03-31-2012, 08:32 PM
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Well,

I guess today was the last day. I bought a display earlier in the week and it was really hard to turn away that 65 929 Sony for $4150 and no tax on-line. It will be interesting to see the new prices set tomorrow. Wonder if the sale at BB/Magnolia will still be going on or if that too will end. The price was down to $5400 I think and could be haggled a bit. I just have been afraid to try on-line for such a big display. If something happens what a hassle to get it returned.

If anyone is sitting on the fence you may have a few hours. Tick Tock.

Rick

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post #71 of 91 Old 03-31-2012, 11:27 PM
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I think Samsung and Sony think their products are new innovations, but when those high prices hit......most people who already have a 2 or 3 year old lcd/plasma will start holding on to them longer. Remember the days of crt television......folkes kept them for 15+ years before buying a new one. Lets face it if you have a 2 or 3 year old tv its not outdated picture quality wise as yet........... all they need is quality HD signal to show perfectly.

So with high prices folkes are not going to want a new toy every year as of 2012...........I still have my first 32 inch lcd tv in my bedroom which i bought 2007 and it still rocks. As for the apps that are offered on the new tvs those can be had from your WDTV media box, Popcorn Hour, Roku and others for a fraction of the cost.................all your netflix, pandora, hulu, amazon on demand and others are on those boxes.

Samsung and Sony don't realize customers are very smart........you see what is happening to cable tv, because they don't learn.......i cut off cable tv for over 5 years now and definitely not going back. I have learned to save myself that extra 80 bucks of cable tv commercial money with my OTA antenna and my streaming services.

Complacency can be a b.tch.......learn from Toyota and Honda which saw there sales eaten in by the new kid on the block that offered stylish cars and 10 years warranty (hyundai). The car that was hated by most has a large market share now...........so my point is if Sony and Samsung think they are doing themselves good there is always opportunist out there ready to take advantage lol.
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post #72 of 91 Old 04-01-2012, 10:08 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sheshechic View Post

I finally found this. I'd planned to respond sooner but lost my notification.

Awesome about your LD520, I'm so happy for you. I gave up since my LD550 isn't going to please me as much as I'd hoped. Not having an IPS panel irritates me. I should have returned it, but hey, I was "young" then. I'm planning on a big plasma this year and to have D-Nice calibrate it and my Panasonic G25 so my tinkering with the AVS 709 will be limited to the 52LD550 and 42LB5D.

I've been away all week so I didn't see your reply till now. I think you had mentioned last year about going plasma. Sorry about your 550. The more I read about the LK series the more I'm glad I got an LD with the S-IPS panel. Mine must of come from a really good production run cause it's been over a year and it is still dead-on-balls perfect for our viewing. I think when it's time to upgrade I may go the professional calibration route as well. I've been really satisfied with my calibration but when we go "big time" next time......
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post #73 of 91 Old 04-03-2012, 08:20 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bullpuss View Post

I think Samsung and Sony think their products are new innovations, but when those high prices hit......most people who already have a 2 or 3 year old lcd/plasma will start holding on to them longer. Remember the days of crt television......folkes kept them for 15+ years before buying a new one. Lets face it if you have a 2 or 3 year old tv its not outdated picture quality wise as yet........... all they need is quality HD signal to show perfectly.

So with high prices folkes are not going to want a new toy every year as of 2012...........I still have my first 32 inch lcd tv in my bedroom which i bought 2007 and it still rocks. As for the apps that are offered on the new tvs those can be had from your WDTV media box, Popcorn Hour, Roku and others for a fraction of the cost.................all your netflix, pandora, hulu, amazon on demand and others are on those boxes.

Samsung and Sony don't realize customers are very smart........you see what is happening to cable tv, because they don't learn.......i cut off cable tv for over 5 years now and definitely not going back. I have learned to save myself that extra 80 bucks of cable tv commercial money with my OTA antenna and my streaming services.

Complacency can be a b.tch.......learn from Toyota and Honda which saw there sales eaten in by the new kid on the block that offered stylish cars and 10 years warranty (hyundai). The car that was hated by most has a large market share now...........so my point is if Sony and Samsung think they are doing themselves good there is always opportunist out there ready to take advantage lol.

Prices at this time last year where no higher then this year with upp etc.

They sold ok then, I see no reason they won't sell now in the same amounts at least.

buytme
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post #74 of 91 Old 04-06-2012, 10:45 PM
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Well, I recently bought a Sony kdl40ex640 and it came out close to $1000 with taxes and shipping. 1 week later and I have to return this tv because it has defective pixels and the worse case of flashlighting and clouding ive seen. How in heavens are u charging $1000 and not give the best quality possible?? To me this makes no sense is not worth it to pay that much money for this overpriced peace of junk that clearly do not have tge best picture quality or any good quality at all in its materials. Imho they overpriced this tv waaaay too much and I hope that consumers teach these companies a lesson and not buy their products.
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post #75 of 91 Old 04-06-2012, 11:41 PM
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After reading all the comments here I have to chime in... I am a commissioned salesperson in a big brick and mortar consumer electronics retailer, not Best Buy... When we first got word of UPP we were like WTF?!? How are we going to make our money? Well, we make it by being salespeople. We have lost tons of business to third party retailers and online "stores" who sell on the cheap. That's fine if that's how you want to buy.

What gets me is those who come into our store, spend 45 minutes grilling me on features and then ask me to match an unreasonable online price. Then they get mad because I wont or they get the info they need to buy online (which is why many come into the store to begin with). They leave and buy online but my time spent with them is gone and I have potentially lost other sales because of this. I am in the service industry and cant afford to let a customer pass thinking they wont buy from me so I approach them all and try to sell to them all.

UPP evens the playing field for all retailers and guess what....? Many of the new Samsungs are lower priced than last years models (at least comparable models at the same time last year). We sell the UN55ES800 at $2,897.99 which is $400 less than the UN55D8000 when it was released last year. SMART TVs and 3D televisions are luxury items. Nobody is forcing anyone to buy them. People come into our store and get angry when we dont save them even more money on a luxury item!!! Want to bargain? Go to a gas station and tell them you want to only pay $3 for a gallon of gas and see where that gets you.

The jury is out whether UPP will work (it will) or if will hurt the HDTV industry as a whole (it wont) or if the Chinese or Vizio will grab market share (they will) but Samsung and others wont suffer thru this and retailers will see increased sales.
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post #76 of 91 Old 04-07-2012, 12:49 AM
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^^ indeed that's the logic behind UPP. Question now is execution/ enforcement.

There is value in assessing a product PHYSICALLY. Someone has to pay for that value. E-commerce should not be able to free-ride.

Quote:
Originally Posted by specuvestor View Post

Apple retail and Apple Internet is similar pricing. There's a reason why that makes sense. Brick and mortar will cave if people continue to test products there and buy Internet. That will not benefit consumers in the long run

Question is of course whether there will be sufficient brand equity for Samsung and LG and maybe Japanese to price above the Vizio and Chinese. Their strategy has to change and net result would probably that brick and mortar sells the former and Internet sells the latter.

The current model of letting market decide on prices based on manufacturer's selling price is unsustainable, because the playing field is unbalanced. Same logic with anti-dumping.

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post #77 of 91 Old 04-07-2012, 01:01 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by recoverypunk View Post

After reading all the comments here I have to chime in... I am a commissioned salesperson in a big brick and mortar consumer electronics retailer, not Best Buy... When we first got word of UPP we were like WTF?!? How are we going to make our money? Well, we make it by being salespeople. We have lost tons of business to third party retailers and online "stores" who sell on the cheap. That's fine if that's how you want to buy.

What gets me is those who come into our store, spend 45 minutes grilling me on features and then ask me to match an unreasonable online price. Then they get mad because I wont or they get the info they need to buy online (which is why many come into the store to begin with). They leave and buy online but my time spent with them is gone and I have potentially lost other sales because of this. I am in the service industry and cant afford to let a customer pass thinking they wont buy from me so I approach them all and try to sell to them all.

UPP evens the playing field for all retailers and guess what....? Many of the new Samsungs are lower priced than last years models (at least comparable models at the same time last year). We sell the UN55ES800 at $2,897.99 which is $400 less than the UN55D8000 when it was released last year. SMART TVs and 3D televisions are luxury items. Nobody is forcing anyone to buy them. People come into our store and get angry when we dont save them even more money on a luxury item!!! Want to bargain? Go to a gas station and tell them you want to only pay $3 for a gallon of gas and see where that gets you.

The jury is out whether UPP will work (it will) or if will hurt the HDTV industry as a whole (it wont) or if the Chinese or Vizio will grab market share (they will) but Samsung and others wont suffer thru this and retailers will see increased sales.

You had me on your side until you decided to write.... "Nobody is forcing anyone to buy them. People come into our store and get angry when we dont save them even more money on a luxury item!!!"

Then your argument moved into the territory of tirade and questionable conclusion.

It will in fact cost Samsung sales, that's demonstrably obvious. There used to be way a buy on the cheap. With that gone, some number of people will choose other brands. It may well not cost Samsung profits in aggregate -- that's another matter. It will benefit retailers to some indeterminate degree.

But please, don't compare a manufacturer's price fixing to the price of a commodity good -- gasoline -- that is not controlled in at all a similar way. I know some people think the overall market for petroleum-based products is heavily manipulated, but no one branded seller has an iota of influence over the pricing on the end product. And refiners don't set retail prices. Sorry.

There is no difference in HDMI cables. If you can see the picture without visible dropouts or sparklies, the cable is working at 100%. No other cable will display a better version of that picture. You're simply wrong if you think there is a better digital cable than one that is already working. (Oh, and plasma didn't die because of logistics problems, nor does OLED ship in big boxes because it comes from Korea.)
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post #78 of 91 Old 04-07-2012, 01:26 AM - Thread Starter
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Will UPP hurt Sammy & Sony ?
Yes it will as it allows lower tier MFGers to get a seat @ the Big Boy table , just by the cost difference alone . Will that matter to most AVS members ? No, might not as a whole we members are some what picky & way more educated .But for the average consumer (the Joe-six-pack types) cost is a driving force .
Buy one display from a B & M or buy a better model @ near the same price online @ a heavy discount , Joe now goes for the on-line best "bang 4 buck".
As on-line buying has greatly improved in the last few years as shipping damage is not a huge issue that it once was . B&M's do service ,that's what they do & they charge for it .Some need to have that service , I myself don't need service as I do my own research .I don't need a salesman to hold my hand making a choice .
Price fixing never works.Never has worked in the past & will never work in the future . The display market is tech driven , who ever makes the best new display @ the best price wins .The MFGer that can do this with unit volume will take over market share fast .

Mike

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post #79 of 91 Old 04-07-2012, 06:32 AM
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Most people who are going to buy lower tier this year were already probably going to do so anyway and UPP isn't going to affect this decision. I see it every day. People ask if we have Vizeo all the time. We don't carry that brand so customers look at the Samsung or LG equivalents and still end up buying Vizeo because of price. Even before UPP there was no way a B&M store could discount to match a Vizeo. A lot of people, especially those who want a great TV, are brand loyal... at least to the big 4 (Samsung, Sony, Panasonic and LG). There will be price shopping between these brands more than there was last year and LG and Panasonic will win this one. You can get as good a TV from them (better if you get Panasonic and if youre not plasma biased) because they do cost less.

The Samsung rep said it best... online third party sellers were diminishing the value of the brand and hurting B&M retailers. Samsung didnt lose any money from heavy discounting because they already sold their products to these sellers at whatever price they agreed to. What it did was cheapen the brand. People were thinking they were beating the corporate giants by buying online. Little did many of them know they werent going to get much product support from these sellers. Kinda hard to get immediate attention from a website for any issues. So some guy in Duluth may be willing to make only $50 or $100 on a set because that's good enough and he has no overhead so he sold cheap. He also doesnt really have to back up his product and can pass issues onto Samsung, some issues that these companies arent even responsible for like power surge damage. I guess some customers are just fine with this. Sure some online sellers are legit and will help you but this still takes more time than calling the store you purchased your TV from. Make a large purchase from me and you usually get my cell number so you can actually get in touch with me if you have issues because to me a customer remains a customer long after I run their credit card and get them out the door.

As a commissioned salesperson it is my job to sell a customer a TV and accessories. If I cant do it with UPP in place then I am not a good salesman. I do wonder if UPP is going to drive the companies that still pay commission to rethink their pay structure. I can see some companies changing to hourly or salary but look what happened to Circuit City when they did this. It was the beginning of a huge downward spiral for them.
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post #80 of 91 Old 04-07-2012, 06:44 AM
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There are still discounts, just not on the televisions themselves. If you buy a "BIG 4" TV and want to save money ask for discounts on cables, surge protectors, wall mounts, stands and other accessories that most consumers need for these hi-tech units. Most salespeople who depend on TVs to pay their bills will be happy to save you $$$ on these items to get you to buy.
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post #81 of 91 Old 04-07-2012, 08:16 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rogo View Post

But please, don't compare a manufacturer's price fixing to the price of a commodity good -- gasoline -- that is not controlled in at all a similar way. I know some people think the overall market for petroleum-based products is heavily manipulated, but no one branded seller has an iota of influence over the pricing on the end product. And refiners don't set retail prices. Sorry.

That depends on where you live. Gasoline is politically charged. Commodity usually means goods is mobile and pricing generally uniform across the globe, factoring friction. Gasoline cost $6.40 per gallon where I live. The country next door sells at half the price.

But other petrochem products are generally commoditized. Panels are generally commoditized too except for higher end like retina. But TV sets are not YET IMHO. There is still very visible difference between a china brand and say Japanese. And like I've been lamenting repeatedly, that US TV is half of Asian pricing, and the panels are made in Asia.

We have been conditioned to think that "price fixing" is bad... but it is bad only to the extent of hurting consumers in the LONG RUN. Many complain electronics has become disposable... so it depends whether one thinks that is bad for consumers in the long run. People are taught to assume demand/supply is relatively static, controlled overwhelmingly by an "invisible hand", but they can actually be manipulated for eg marketing. And if you are long enough in a business where value is difficult to determine for eg service, pricing a product "too cheap" diminishes "perceived value".. .for eg a same product priced at $X and $2X have different perceived value (read branded handbags for eg) Ironically same product at $X and $X+10% will almost always have the former creaming the latter.

Like rogo says, volume will drop but that hardly impacts profit. That pretty much sums up why UPP at this point of time.

But in a highly competitive market, it can be difficult to establish branding but companies like B&O, Apple and Bose have done pretty successfully. The question as usual is always the execution to deliver "perceived value".. .and it can be position as "snob value" as well Sony for example did it well in the past.
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post #82 of 91 Old 04-07-2012, 10:28 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by recoverypunk View Post

There are still discounts, just not on the televisions themselves. If you buy a "BIG 4" TV and want to save money ask for discounts on cables, surge protectors, wall mounts, stands and other accessories that most consumers need for these hi-tech units. Most salespeople who depend on TVs to pay their bills will be happy to save you $$$ on these items to get you to buy.

Discounts on heavily marked up cables,mounts,stands are NOT discounts .
You really come in here @ AVS & make a statement like that ?
When the vast majority of all new AVS'ers soon find out about retailers like MonoPrice that sells those items @ a fraction of what you sell those for Even after your so called " discount ".
That's why B&M's are loosing money is because no one trusts a salesman like you .
You are one reason that AVS is a vast wealth of trusted info to anyone who needs good solid advice on buying displays & audio gear plus all the needed supplies for a setting up Home Theater .

Mike

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post #83 of 91 Old 04-07-2012, 12:01 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by specuvestor View Post

That depends on where you live. Gasoline is politically charged. Commodity usually means goods is mobile and pricing generally uniform across the globe, factoring friction. Gasoline cost $6.40 per gallon where I live. The country next door sells at half the price.

My comments on gasoline were intended to reference solely the U.S.
Quote:


We have been conditioned to think that "price fixing" is bad... but it is bad only to the extent of hurting consumers in the LONG RUN.

Price fixing is bad. Competitive markets are better. A given manufacturer price fixing, however, is less clearly bad because other companies can compete with them. If I complain about UPP, it's not that I worry broadly because consumers can absolutely vote not to buy Samsung. That I think it's the wrong strategy for Samsung is another matter. But in that case, I'm not rendering an opinion on its "badness" or evil.
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Many complain electronics has become disposable... so it depends whether one thinks that is bad for consumers in the long run. People are taught to assume demand/supply is relatively static, controlled overwhelmingly by an "invisible hand", but they can actually be manipulated for eg marketing. And if you are long enough in a business where value is difficult to determine for eg service, pricing a product "too cheap" diminishes "perceived value".. .for eg a same product priced at $X and $2X have different perceived value (read branded handbags for eg) Ironically same product at $X and $X+10% will almost always have the former creaming the latter.

The thing is, too many products are fungible. No one can actually manipulate supply in most markets. People who try generally fail. If all the high end TVs go on UPP and become expensive, someone new is going to make high-end TVs for less money and eat their lunch. There are enough good parts in the global supply chain to allow someone to emerge and do this and you can't shut off that flow.

This is why things like new airlines emerge, new financial services companies emerge, etc. There are few industries that actually can deter new entrants and control pricing at the high end. And the longer they succeed in doing so, the surer they will ultimately fail.

There is a lesson there for auto companies (don't look now, but Hyundai is gaining on you) and even Apple and Samsung.
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Like rogo says, volume will drop but that hardly impacts profit. That pretty much sums up why UPP at this point of time.

I do think it's hard to put the distribution genie back in the bottle. The high-end audio companies have succeeded to an extent and that has also been occurring over a period where their market has evaporated. While I'm not claiming cause and effect, it's impossible to argue that their strategy has actually helped their businesses. See the financials of Denon/Marantz and many others for evidence.
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But in a highly competitive market, it can be difficult to establish branding but companies like B&O, Apple and Bose have done pretty successfully. The question as usual is always the execution to deliver "perceived value".. .and it can be position as "snob value" as well Sony for example did it well in the past.

Right, and Bose arguably has done this longer than Apple, which is good news for Apple. Samsung is over assorted to do this well. You can't slap your name on cheap stuff and also claim, "Hey, this high-end stuff is premium." It's why BMW goes down to a 1 series, but the Mini Cooper is not BMW branded. And the Samsung name is on some cheap stuff.

If they really want to pull this off, I'd argue they need to segment their market and branding. Sony got away with it for awhile with things like Trinitron and XBR largely because people credited them for inventing high-end TV. Once that perception had faded, there was no magic to the Sony brand in TV and the sales went with it.

There is no difference in HDMI cables. If you can see the picture without visible dropouts or sparklies, the cable is working at 100%. No other cable will display a better version of that picture. You're simply wrong if you think there is a better digital cable than one that is already working. (Oh, and plasma didn't die because of logistics problems, nor does OLED ship in big boxes because it comes from Korea.)
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post #84 of 91 Old 04-10-2012, 10:44 AM
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Originally Posted by rogo View Post

My comments on gasoline were intended to reference solely the U.S.


Price fixing is bad. Competitive markets are better. A given manufacturer price fixing, however, is less clearly bad because other companies can compete with them. If I complain about UPP, it's not that I worry broadly because consumers can absolutely vote not to buy Samsung. That I think it's the wrong strategy for Samsung is another matter. But in that case, I'm not rendering an opinion on its "badness" or evil.


The thing is, too many products are fungible. No one can actually manipulate supply in most markets. People who try generally fail. If all the high end TVs go on UPP and become expensive, someone new is going to make high-end TVs for less money and eat their lunch. There are enough good parts in the global supply chain to allow someone to emerge and do this and you can't shut off that flow.

This is why things like new airlines emerge, new financial services companies emerge, etc. There are few industries that actually can deter new entrants and control pricing at the high end. And the longer they succeed in doing so, the surer they will ultimately fail.

There is a lesson there for auto companies (don't look now, but Hyundai is gaining on you) and even Apple and Samsung.

I do think it's hard to put the distribution genie back in the bottle. The high-end audio companies have succeeded to an extent and that has also been occurring over a period where their market has evaporated. While I'm not claiming cause and effect, it's impossible to argue that their strategy has actually helped their businesses. See the financials of Denon/Marantz and many others for evidence.


Right, and Bose arguably has done this longer than Apple, which is good news for Apple. Samsung is over assorted to do this well. You can't slap your name on cheap stuff and also claim, "Hey, this high-end stuff is premium." It's why BMW goes down to a 1 series, but the Mini Cooper is not BMW branded. And the Samsung name is on some cheap stuff.

If they really want to pull this off, I'd argue they need to segment their market and branding. Sony got away with it for awhile with things like Trinitron and XBR largely because people credited them for inventing high-end TV. Once that perception had faded, there was no magic to the Sony brand in TV and the sales went with it.


I couldn't say it better if i tried..........these are really good points. BB think they can sell me a $250 HDMI cable at a discount of a $100 and saying i am getting a good deal. Monoprice baby......unless they want to UPP cables too lol.....

Just saw this about Best Buy:link below....check it out all you best buy sales personnel that are defending UPP
http://finance.yahoo.com/blogs/break...151536950.html
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post #85 of 91 Old 04-11-2012, 05:42 PM
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Just saw 2 different articles where the 2 biggest upp supporters are in trouble financially (Best Buy & Sony). I hope they both crash and burn from their price fixing when those TV's stop sell. Those high price tv will rot on the shelves until UPP and Best Buy is no more lol.


http://www.afterdawn.com/news/articl..._000_employees
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post #86 of 91 Old 04-13-2012, 12:43 AM
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^^ Does the closing of CC benefit US consumers? I do hope you've never "browsed" TV in a B&M stores the past years and have been doing your electronic shopping purely online.

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Originally Posted by rogo View Post

If they really want to pull this off, I'd argue they need to segment their market and branding. Sony got away with it for awhile with things like Trinitron and XBR largely because people credited them for inventing high-end TV. Once that perception had faded, there was no magic to the Sony brand in TV and the sales went with it.

Absolutely... segmentation and added value proposition is key to this UPP strategy. If the consumer experience is identical to low priced alternatives, then it will surely fail.

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Originally Posted by rogo View Post

The thing is, too many products are fungible. No one can actually manipulate supply in most markets. People who try generally fail. If all the high end TVs go on UPP and become expensive, someone new is going to make high-end TVs for less money and eat their lunch. There are enough good parts in the global supply chain to allow someone to emerge and do this and you can't shut off that flow.

Extreme case of De Beers comes to mind

Thing is these companies set up certain entry barrier because they are high tech with high capex and know-how. NAND is high tech but USB Flash is not. You will probably have one or two chinese players left simply because cost of production is still significantly cheaper there and it has the largest TV market. But india is unlikely to make panels soon. That's what Buffet refer to as Moat. Like the high tech HDD industry it is likelier that competitors decrease rather than increase.

Main problem with high tech has been that the oligopoly self implode with competition (not exactly what is in econ textbooks). It is the classic Prisoners' dilemma. Everyone is hoping to reach the CRT nirvana of 10% cash cow margin forever, with limited competitors. Alas like Kodak, it is not the industry competition that did them in, it is the disruptive technology.

The current model is not working for the industry chain. Something has to change. But as usual change only comes when it is forced upon them, like all financial crisis

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Originally Posted by Fastslappy View Post

Price fixing never works.Never has worked in the past & will never work in the future . The display market is tech driven , who ever makes the best new display @ the best price wins .The MFGer that can do this with unit volume will take over market share fast .

Apple comes to mind, though admittedly they failed 20 years ago. So it is not a flawed concept, it is a flawed execution.
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DeBeers was so good at restricting supply for so long that it, too, failed. They are no longer a monopsony to suppliers and no longer the lone practical supplier to merchants....

Anyway....

There is no difference in HDMI cables. If you can see the picture without visible dropouts or sparklies, the cable is working at 100%. No other cable will display a better version of that picture. You're simply wrong if you think there is a better digital cable than one that is already working. (Oh, and plasma didn't die because of logistics problems, nor does OLED ship in big boxes because it comes from Korea.)
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^^ indeed that's the logic behind UPP. Question now is execution/ enforcement.

There is value in assessing a product PHYSICALLY. Someone has to pay for that value. E-commerce should not be able to free-ride.

i don't know if this upp is going to help or hurt the manufacturers and b & m, but i'm with spec here, there is indeed a lot of value in being able to physically assess a product in a store before purchase.

before i've bought all of my high end displays, i went to cc, bb, sears, whatever and looked and played with it before purchase, (except my kuro which i bought sight unseen when i found one of the last ones in inventory in my area at a bb).

and returns are sure a hell of a lot easier with b & ms.

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Actually just blame China on all of this. This country cant seem to get enough of China's low priced products. It's changed the American buying perception. It's like Wal-Mart, people are conditioned to wanting low prices on everything, its the low price that matters, not anything else. Plus toss in the law of supply and demand, the manufacturers start pumping the sets out like crazy, of course something has to give. Plus at one time Sony was known for engineering excellence and products visibly superior to the competion, you could easily see the difference. I don't think thats so true now.
As far as Apple goes, they control their market, I wonder where Apples prices would be, if all their products where cloned? Again the law of supply and demand. You can't have it all.
It reminds me of an experience a had years ago at a local high end store, the owner wouldn't budge on any prices, strictcly MSRP, if you can't afford the gear at that price, hey you can't afford it and would act insulted if you suggested otherwise. But one day I walk in, he arguing on the phone with the Acura dealer of the price of a car.
Just my vent of the week.

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post #90 of 91 Old 05-20-2012, 12:14 PM
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Actually just blame China on all of this. This country cant seem to get enough of China's low priced products. It's changed the American buying perception. It's like Wal-Mart, people are conditioned to wanting low prices on everything, its the low price that matters, not anything else. Plus toss in the law of supply and demand, the manufacturers start pumping the sets out like crazy, of course something has to give. Plus at one time Sony was known for engineering excellence and products visibly superior to the competion, you could easily see the difference. I don't think thats so true now.
As far as Apple goes, they control their market, I wonder where Apples prices would be, if all their products where cloned? Again the law of supply and demand. You can't have it all.
It reminds me of an experience a had years ago at a local high end store, the owner wouldn't budge on any prices, strictcly MSRP, if you can't afford the gear at that price, hey you can't afford it and would act insulted if you suggested otherwise. But one day I walk in, he arguing on the phone with the Acura dealer of the price of a car.
Just my vent of the week.

It's called the "evolution of economies". You don't spend $100/hr for someone to screw on left side door mirrors, you design a car and contract someone to build it. 100 years ago American production offset labor costs, now that production technology is common and nobody wants to pay huge amounts for unskilled labor.

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