Why do most go for an LED when Plasmas have better PQ? - Page 2 - AVS Forum
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post #31 of 144 Old 03-10-2012, 03:59 AM
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One reason only for me, image retention.
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post #32 of 144 Old 03-10-2012, 04:12 AM
 
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Originally Posted by steveklein View Post

i could be wrong but isn't saying burn-in is a problem with plasmas kind of silly these days? from everything i've read, plasmas have made huge strides in preventing burn-in since there early days and most plasmas made in the last 5 years won't really have burn-in issues... and certainly nice 2011/2012 models...

Haven't you read any of the last 20 or 30 pages of the Master Burn-In/IR/Break In Thread located in the Plasma section???
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post #33 of 144 Old 03-10-2012, 07:13 AM
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I was at a burger joint last night that has a couple of Samsung plasmas. A basketball game was on one of them but you could clearly see a shadow of the 'these stories are coming soon boxes ' that ESPN throws up on the left side of the screen. Now I'd say showing ESPN all day every day would be considered abuse and there was no way I could determine if it was just retention rather than burn in (I haven't been to that same restaurant in at least 6 months) but that sort of thing is enough to scare me off from plasma. Even if only image retention it would drive me nuts until it went away.
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post #34 of 144 Old 03-10-2012, 08:19 AM
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Yeah, for me I am typing on a windows desktop right now. Use for HTPC/Gaming and windows all the time - why not at 70" and 8 feet away and nice wireless stuff

So when you can now get an amazing Elite 70" (or soon 1/2 price 70" 945 Sharp with same tech) that rivals or beats the best plasma - why bother if you use it for multiple purposes.

But for someone who wants a cheap great looking set - you just can't beat a low end PxxD7000 closeout! Amazing picture and after simple calibration wtih the AVS forum disc is stunning.

I would not keep my desktop on that for 5 hours straight writting a manuscript however
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post #35 of 144 Old 03-10-2012, 08:26 AM
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After owning an older plasma, an older LCD, and trying out newer LCDs (like the Samsung D8000) I'm now back in the Plasma camp. With either technology you have issues... but in my opinion, with LCD you get guaranteed problems, while with Plasma you have potential problems.

Let me explain: with modern LCDs, it seems that every single "feature" is designed to offset or mask an intrinsic problem with LCDs.

LCD's have bad motion clarity/judder? Ok, theres a frame interpolation, but it gives the unwanted soap opera effect.

LCD's have poor blacks? Ok, we can turn off the LEDs in areas, but that almost always results in blooming artifacts.

LCD's have poor viewing angles? Now that everyone is using VA panels for 3D, they've gotten worse, though Panasonic and LG will have some IPS LCDs this year that should have decent viewing angles. Everyone else though? Bleh.

Additionally, these "features" that are used to mask LCD's flaws aren't free. They require processing time, which in turn increases your input latency. In other words, if you plan on gaming on a modern LCD, when you go to check it out in the store make sure they put it on a "game" mode and THEN compare against a Plasma. Once you take off all of LCD's "makeup" and you see what's really underneath, you'll see something pretty ugly- or at least that was my experience. Plasma on the other hand seems to have an intrinsically beautiful level of picture quality.

With Plasma, it seems like the biggest fear is Image Retention. I've found youtube videos of modern plasmas exhibiting IR, but it's almost always after sitting on the same image for >4 hrs, or disabling some of the anti-IR features, etc. All of my friends have Plasma TVs in the 1-3 year age range and have nothing but good to say about them, and they all game on them very heavily.

The 2012 Plasma displays hold a lot of promise- especially the VT50 and PNE8000 series. That said, I haven't ruled out a LCD purchase in 2012, but it would have to be IPS for me. That DOES rule out all LCD models by Sony, Samsung, Sharp.

Calibration Equipment:

Meters: X-rite i1 Pro 2, X-rite i1 Display Pro

Software: Spectracal Calman DIY, ControlCAL

 

Televisions:

Panasonic TC-P65VT50 (currently own)
Samsung UN55D8000 (returned) Calibration and Settings Thread

 

Plasma IR Removal:

Post 1 - Post 2 - Post 3

 

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post #36 of 144 Old 03-10-2012, 08:38 AM
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I will say that my sole plasma (a cheap Panasonic TC-P46C2) has image retention, however it pretty much goes away within half an hour if I start working the pixels again by watching something. (You'd have to work to notice it within ten minutes.)
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post #37 of 144 Old 03-10-2012, 08:44 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tempest261 View Post

After owning an older plasma, an older LCD, and trying out newer LCDs (like the Samsung D8000) I'm now back in the Plasma camp. With either technology you have issues... but in my opinion, with LCD you get guaranteed problems, while with Plasma you have potential problems.

Let me explain: with modern LCDs, it seems that every single "feature" is designed to offset or mask an intrinsic problem with LCDs.

LCD's have bad motion clarity/judder? Ok, theres a frame interpolation, but it gives the unwanted soap opera effect.

LCD's have poor blacks? Ok, we can turn off the LEDs in areas, but that almost always results in blooming artifacts.

LCD's have poor viewing angles? Now that everyone is using VA panels for 3D, they've gotten worse, though Panasonic and LG will have some IPS LCDs this year that should have decent viewing angles. Everyone else though? Bleh.

Additionally, these "features" that are used to mask LCD's flaws aren't free. They require processing time, which in turn increases your input latency. In other words, if you plan on gaming on a modern LCD, when you go to check it out in the store make sure they put it on a "game" mode and THEN compare against a Plasma. Once you take off all of LCD's "makeup" and you see what's really underneath, you'll see something pretty ugly- or at least that was my experience. Plasma on the other hand seems to have an intrinsically beautiful level of picture quality.

With Plasma, it seems like the biggest fear is Image Retention. I've found youtube videos of modern plasmas exhibiting IR, but it's almost always after sitting on the same image for >4 hrs, or disabling some of the anti-IR features, etc. All of my friends have Plasma TVs in the 1-3 year age range and have nothing but good to say about them, and they all game on them very heavily.

The 2012 Plasma displays hold a lot of promise- especially the VT50 and PNE8000 series. That said, I haven't ruled out a LCD purchase in 2012, but it would have to be IPS for me. That DOES rule out all LCD models by Sony, Samsung, Sharp.

I couldnt agree with you more. I own both plasma (2010 c7000) and lcd and there really isnt a comparison in my mind. It boggles me that people still think that burn in is an issue with newer plasmas. To be honest, thats nearly dead. Im not including commercially abused plasmas in this however. IR is a slight problem but is temporary and is not really annoying. I find it funny that people talk about IR problems with plasmas, yet ignore the flashlighting of the new led lcds, poor viewing angles, lackluster color accuracy, poor screen uniformity, terrible motion handling and soap opera effect, and average black levels of lcds.

The point of owning a tv to me is enjoying what i watch and having the best PQ possible without having to spend a fortune on something decent in the led lcd segment (sharp elite). i can get a top of the line large screen plasma for around $2000 and you would have to pay double that to get nearly the same quality picture. Personally i will deal with the IR and dimmer screen over the inherent problems associated with 95% of lcds.
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post #38 of 144 Old 03-10-2012, 08:45 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tempest261 View Post

After owning an older plasma, an older LCD, and trying out newer LCDs (like the Samsung D8000) I'm now back in the Plasma camp. With either technology you have issues... but in my opinion, with LCD you get guaranteed problems, while with Plasma you have potential problems.

Let me explain: with modern LCDs, it seems that every single "feature" is designed to offset or mask an intrinsic problem with LCDs.

LCD's have bad motion clarity/judder? Ok, theres a frame interpolation, but it gives the unwanted soap opera effect.

LCD's have poor blacks? Ok, we can turn off the LEDs in areas, but that almost always results in blooming artifacts.

LCD's have poor viewing angles? Now that everyone is using VA panels for 3D, they've gotten worse, though Panasonic and LG will have some IPS LCDs this year that should have decent viewing angles. Everyone else though? Bleh.

Additionally, these "features" that are used to mask LCD's flaws aren't free. They require processing time, which in turn increases your input latency. In other words, if you plan on gaming on a modern LCD, when you go to check it out in the store make sure they put it on a "game" mode and THEN compare against a Plasma. Once you take off all of LCD's "makeup" and you see what's really underneath, you'll see something pretty ugly- or at least that was my experience. Plasma on the other hand seems to have an intrinsically beautiful level of picture quality.

With Plasma, it seems like the biggest fear is Image Retention. I've found youtube videos of modern plasmas exhibiting IR, but it's almost always after sitting on the same image for >4 hrs, or disabling some of the anti-IR features, etc. All of my friends have Plasma TVs in the 1-3 year age range and have nothing but good to say about them, and they all game on them very heavily.

The 2012 Plasma displays hold a lot of promise- especially the VT50 and PNE8000 series. That said, I haven't ruled out a LCD purchase in 2012, but it would have to be IPS for me. That DOES rule out all LCD models by Sony, Samsung, Sharp.

Even though, I prefer LCDs, I do agree with some of your statements. However, the real question to ask is not whether LED/LCD is better or worse than Plasma, but whether a given LED/LCD set is better or worse than a given Plasma. Generalizations can only go so far and so it's best to compare specific TVs against one another instead of entire categories of TVs. With LCDs, panel type is crucial in terms of performance characteristics as is backlighting (CCFL, Edge-Lit LED, and Full Array LED), local dimming or not.
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post #39 of 144 Old 03-10-2012, 08:49 AM
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Originally Posted by PlasmaPZ80U View Post


Even though, I prefer LCDs, I do agree with some of your statements. However, the real question to ask is not whether LED/LCD is better or worse than Plasma, but whether a given LED/LCD set is better or worse than a given Plasma. Generalizations can only go so far and so it's best to compare specific TVs against one another instead of entire categories of TVs. With LCDs, panel type is crucial in terms of performance characteristics as is backlighting (CCFL, Edge-Lit LED, and Full Array LED), local dimming or not.

The point here is, a top of the line 2012 plasma will blow away a similar priced led in nearly every important catagory. Like i said above, you would have to spend nearly double the amount of money to get something in the led segment that comes close. Unfortunately not everyone can afford a $5000 sharp elite.
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post #40 of 144 Old 03-10-2012, 09:27 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thewayout2217 View Post

The point here is, a top of the line 2012 plasma will blow away a similar priced led in nearly every important catagory. Like i said above, you would have to spend nearly double the amount of money to get something in the led segment that comes close. Unfortunately not everyone can afford a $5000 sharp elite.

Looks like another plasma vs lcd pissin match coming up.
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post #41 of 144 Old 03-10-2012, 09:37 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thewayout2217 View Post

The point here is, a top of the line 2012 plasma will blow away a similar priced led in nearly every important catagory. Like i said above, you would have to spend nearly double the amount of money to get something in the led segment that comes close. Unfortunately not everyone can afford a $5000 sharp elite.

perhaps; what about less expensive plasmas though? entry-level and mid-range

not everyone can afford a $3000+ plasma either like the Panasonic TC-P65VT30
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post #42 of 144 Old 03-10-2012, 09:45 AM
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Originally Posted by PlasmaPZ80U View Post


perhaps; what about less expensive plasmas though?

The mid to low range plasmas still have a great PQ. Thats just a characteristic of plasma. My fathers cheap $350 sanyo 42" 720p plasma looks surprisingly good, not great or near my c7000 and the reliability is probably not there, but im not so sure if there is a 42" lcd that costs $350 out and if there is i have a hard time believing the PQ significantly better.

Low to mid tier plasmas do not have AR filters or coated panels which make them useless compared to an lcd in a brighter room. My dads sanyo has awful glare, but as with everything, you get what you pay for.
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post #43 of 144 Old 03-10-2012, 09:47 AM
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not everyone can afford a $3000+ plasma either like the Panasonic TC-P65VT30[/quote]

I got my c7000 for $1200 brand new as a leftover. As you may already know the 7000 is highly rated and i do not think there is an lcd for that price that can touch it. I have yet to see one at least.
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post #44 of 144 Old 03-10-2012, 09:52 AM
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I got my c7000 for $1200 brand new as a leftover. As you may already know the 7000 is highly rated and i do not think there is an lcd for that price that can touch it. I have yet to see one at least.

That does appear to be a good plasma, especially for the price. However, based on what I've heard image retention is more of an issue on Samsung's than Panasonic's.
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post #45 of 144 Old 03-10-2012, 10:05 AM
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Originally Posted by PlasmaPZ80U View Post


That does appear to be a good plasma, especially for the price. However, based on what I've heard image retention is more of an issue on Samsung's than Panasonic's.

Yes the 2010 models were pretty bad. If I leave something on the screen for 5 minutes you can see every word on lighter scenes a minute or two. The newer 2011 and 2012 models are better. The IR doesnt bother me really. I can live with it.
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post #46 of 144 Old 03-10-2012, 10:13 AM
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The problem with plasma has always been the ABL circuit.

These are just my opinions.
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post #47 of 144 Old 03-10-2012, 10:24 AM
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The problem with plasma has always been the ABL circuit.

I'm glad you brought that up. One of the reasons I went with LCD is that the image doesn't dim when displaying bright content across the entire screen. Whether a small area is bright on the screen or the whole screen is bright, the light output of the flat-panel remains constant (assuming no dynamic backlight and/or contrast controls are active including many energy saving features). I also find the overall look of the image to be sharper than plasma, likely due to the difference in pixel structure.
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post #48 of 144 Old 03-10-2012, 12:03 PM
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The simple answer is that plasma USED to be far, far superior to LCD... But LCD/LED has come a very long way in the past three years. I recently picked up a Sony HX820 and it stands very proudly against my 60" Kuro. I swore I'd stick to plasma but the LED sets come out now and just as good and better in many ways.

1000
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post #49 of 144 Old 03-10-2012, 12:43 PM
 
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Originally Posted by 1000 View Post

The simple answer is that plasma USED to be far, far superior to LCD... But LCD/LED has come a very long way in the past three years. I recently picked up a Sony HX820 and it stands very proudly against my 60" Kuro. I swore I'd stick to plasma but the LED sets come out now and just as good and better in many ways.

1000

Very high praise indeed.
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post #50 of 144 Old 03-10-2012, 12:51 PM
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what about glare on lcds i am noticing more glass on the displays on led lcds that almost equal plasmas
what lcd display is the best for the least amount of Glare?
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post #51 of 144 Old 03-10-2012, 12:54 PM
 
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what about glare on lcds i am noticing more glass on the displays on led lcds that almost equal plasmas
what lcd display is the best for the least amount of Glare?

The Sharp 70 and 80 inch tvs have screens that produce very little glare.
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post #52 of 144 Old 03-10-2012, 01:05 PM
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The Sharp 70 and 80 inch tvs have screens that produce very little glare.

what about the sharp 60inch LC-60LE640U?
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post #53 of 144 Old 03-10-2012, 01:15 PM
 
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what about the sharp 60inch LC-60LE640U?

Can't say, don't own one.
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post #54 of 144 Old 03-10-2012, 01:58 PM
 
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When I was shopping for TVs a couple years ago, I saw one plasma TV in a store that had a local TV station's bug logo burned into it. I would never watch anything on TV with a bug, but I still shouldn't have to worry about that happening. I use my computer on my LCD a lot and several times have kept it displaying the same thing all day while I do something else, and it hasn't burned in. If I had a plasma, I'd be a lot more cautious about doing that. I've read that plasma owners have to be careful about how much 4x3 content they watch, which is just ridiculous.
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post #55 of 144 Old 03-10-2012, 02:31 PM
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When I was shopping for TVs a couple years ago, I saw one plasma TV in a store that had a local TV station's bug logo burned into it. I would never watch anything on TV with a bug, but I still shouldn't have to worry about that happening. I use my computer on my LCD a lot and several times have kept it displaying the same thing all day while I do something else, and it hasn't burned in. If I had a plasma, I'd be a lot more cautious about doing that. I've read that plasma owners have to be careful about how much 4x3 content they watch, which is just ridiculous.

My 2008 Panasonic Plasma does get temporary IR if you leave a static logo or element on the screen for a long time but it's never permanent and disappears soon after you view something full-screen that has no static elements in it. It's basically a minor annoyance at its worst but still pretty good for a plasma. Samsung's are quite a bit worse in this respect. Regarding 4:3 content, I don't use that mode ever, so I cannot comment (though my cable box does automatically add pillar/window boxes to 4:3 material to maintain proper aspect ratio and this doesn't seem to cause a problem).
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post #56 of 144 Old 03-10-2012, 02:46 PM
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The bottom line is that image retention is going to bug some people more than others (even if it has been 'fixed' in modern sets). Just like motion smoothing or the potential for motion blur might be a minor concern for some and a major concern for others (even if it's been 'fixed' in modern sets).

If image retention is at the top of your annoyance list you now have more options than you did a few years ago due to the progress modern LCD sets have made.

Plasma has its place...but so does LCD. But if the price on modern LED lit sets start to come down I think you'll finally see the death of plasma. Which to me would be sad since having options is a good thing.

If it matters I own a LED side lit LCD. I've never owned a plasma.
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post #57 of 144 Old 03-10-2012, 03:29 PM
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I've gone through eight computer monitors, but I've only ever bought three TVs: A 27" Toshiba CRT in 1997 for $350, a 32" Samsung LCD in May 2006 for $1199, and a 46" Samsung LCD in September 2008 for $1648.

I never really considered plasmas because I wanted to be able to hook my PC up to the TV, and I don't want the Start Menu burned into the screen the way the ESPN logo is burned into the plasmas at every sports bar I go to.

I'm also a little intimidated by the sticker on the back of my dad's 2006 Panasonic 58PX60U plasma that says it uses 655 watts. And the fact that it weighs a ton and has a bunch of fans in it.

But the bottom line is that most plasmas you see with burn-in are ANCIENT and have had ESPN on them for 14+ hours per day. My dad's 2006 plasma has no issues, and it's certainly plenty bright.

Newer plasmas don't have burn-in issues, they don't weigh a ton, and they don't use any more power than than an LED-LCD. The Panasonic 50ST50 I'm looking at has an Energy Guide sticker that says $21 per year. I can't think of any reason not to get one.

LEDs are still sexier. I definitely like the newer Samsungs with no bezel. But as far as the picture, I'm pretty tired of the questionable blacks and screen bleed and how horrible most of them look from the side. Sure, when I'm watching TV I'm usually right in front of it, but I can't help noticing how bad most LCD screens look when I'm in another part of the room. Obviously newer ones don't look as bad as my 32" from 2006 which looks God-awful on a black screen. But you still have to admit that newer plasmas look better than newer LEDs for most stuff -- especially the blacks, and especially if you catch the picture from the side.

If you're going to make a thread about which one is the better deal ... I dunno. I guess a cheaper plasma is the best deal. But that's why people don't realize how good the better plasmas are -- because Best Buy doesn't carry many, and they don't look better than the competition under the crazy lighting in the store, and most people's experience with plasmas is because they know someone who bought one because it was cheap, so it's a 42" turd that was low-end when it came out and was bought on closeout.

So I guess I'm probably getting a plasma in two months when I move. Because modern plasmas have done away with all the reasons I was avoiding them. I would certainly consider a 50" to 55" LED-LCD, but as someone who appreciates good blacks, watches TV in the evening without a lot of bright lights, and instantly notices uneven blacks and screen bleed, it doesn't sound like I'll find a LED I like better than the 50ST50 without paying a whole lot more.
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post #58 of 144 Old 03-10-2012, 05:25 PM
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Let me start this post off by saying I spent 3 hours at a best buy store today talking to the people there and watching televisions. Yes, I know they try to sell you things but generally with how I am, I can get them to have a conversation with me and be real rather than just sell me the most expensive thing as I'm not a person that walks into a store with a definite thing I want I'm always browsing trying to learn.

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Originally Posted by MasterofBlasting View Post

Plasma does seem to have a better picture quality then LCD. This can be considered opinion, but Plasma's do tend to produce a more accurate and life-like picture.

Sometime people aren't concerend about getting the best product they can, but rather getting the latest technology or the most expensive product they can afford. The logical reason why someone would choose LED over Plasma, is brightness.

Plasma TV's can have a hard time in brighter rooms. Solution, close the curtains, or turn off the light. But this may not be enough for some viewing areas, and an LED is the best way to go.

This is the exact conversation I had with the guy, a video game junkie I'm guessing. I walked in looking at LED LCD tvs and he turned me off of the Sharp a bit saying that they had bad PQ in high moving scenes. If I was playing lots of video games I wouldn't like it as much as other televisions. After watching some hockey game scenes and other fast moving scenes I was worried but I'm still going to ask around here first. Meanwhile, the plasma seemed to be fine compared to the LED LCD tvs of Sharp. Samsung faired better but still was effected. I quickly wrote off the Plasma at first, old tech, and the LED was brighter. I watched it for awhile though and movies seemed much more real.

When I asked about why people got the LED when the plasma was cheaper and had GREAT picture quality he simply said "Brightness". It was the number one way they were selling TVs he told me. People go to the brightest TV they see and it's LEDs. Plasmas have GREAT PQ, but LEDs sell better right now.

Second thing he said was newness of the technology. No matter what, people want new technology.

Those two things explained to me why LEDs have been the thing people have been raving about and made me rethink Plasmas, especially when being told the Plasma 8000 series Samsungs have a lot of preventive measures against burnin.

Quote:
Originally Posted by sphna12d View Post

Plasma's are heavy, energy hogs and possibly lose some of their great black levels over time. In certain darker environments, Plasma's can be ideal but not everyone has an ideal environment for a Plasma.

This "heavy" thing is a joke. The Plasmas I saw today were everybit as thin as LED tvs. As for doing better in darker environments I totally agree. The plasmas in the theatre room of bestbuy looked great but outside in the bright lights the LEDs looked amazing. I think with proper settings both would do great so it really depends where the TV is going.

Quote:
Originally Posted by seanclayton View Post

Burn-in
/thread

This is not a great answer. Burn-in has had a lot of improvements. I was just at the store looking at the Samsung 8000 series 64inch and learned a lot of the anti burnin prevention serious. Don't think a 2 word answer will end a thread.



All in all, I'm confused as to whether to get the 64 inch Samsung and pay the extra 4-500 dollars, or stick with my choice of a 70 inch sharp after spending tons of time watching them. Decisions decisions, but if you don't mind losing some inches, and your TV is going in a darker place like a basement or something, plasmas are probably a better bet. People may be like "well I got a LED your plasma sucks" but well it's whatever. Deep down though when I thought about it, I wanted to have the newest thing when I first went into the store, and after leaving, I was confused as to whether I wanted the newest thing, or the thing I thought would probably best fit my needs. I'm guessing though that a lot of people literally walk into the store with their minds set on LED because it's the newest tech and don't even think about plasmas.
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post #59 of 144 Old 03-10-2012, 05:31 PM
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Originally Posted by tential View Post

This "heavy" thing is a joke. The Plasmas I saw today were everybit as thin as LED tvs.

Think you are confusing weight with depth, they are two different things.
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post #60 of 144 Old 03-10-2012, 05:42 PM
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going to a BB & taking advice from a ex-burger flipper gameboi is the worst way to select a Display .
It takes lots of research & knowing what you really watch ,where you really watch ,how many people watch with you , day time VS night time watching . Learning all those & how they apply to a choice between LCD VS Plasma. It's personal type thing but one choice the person who buys the display must make on their own ,not taking a statement from one camp over the other camp (LCD vs Plasma Camps ) as gospel
Complete Education on both Techs is key . this will not cause you to have buyer remorse when you get the new Display home as that is the biggest P I A ..

Mike

JAZZ IS NOT DEAD IT JUST SMELLS FUNNY ; FRANK ZAPPA
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