Samsung 60ES8000 or Panasonic 65VT50? - Page 2 - AVS Forum
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post #31 of 103 Old 06-26-2012, 07:16 PM
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You conveneiently leave out the fact that most who buy bright lcds don't care enough about their home theater experience to put up a set of blinds smile.gif We are a minority? I thought you had condemned your plasma's because they weren't bright enough for hockey? Where are you getting this vt ir stuff from? Seriously GIVE ME A LINK biggrin.gif
If you watch one sports channel constantly or play one game constantly then yeah you might want to think about not buying a plasma. If you want brightness that will beat the crap out of the sun on a bright day then you might not want a plasma. These are all basic facts that every tv buyer should know, it's great that you've side stepped your original statement "LCD with its higher refresh rate looks far better than plasma." and are now argueing something you actually understand though.
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post #32 of 103 Old 06-27-2012, 03:04 AM
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I've now watched baseball, the U.S. Open golf and the NBA Finals on my new VT50. Aside from Game 1 of the NBA Finals, which was strobe-o-tastic and apparently would've been annoying on any TV according to at least some people, I've found the picture absolutely fantastic for sports. I've used it during the day and at night. I'm confident a Samsung ES8000 would also have been good, but it clearly would have suffered two weakness I haven't had to deal with (a) it's significantly smaller and (b) it loses contrast off axis.

I've found the Panasonic plenty bright, have not wanted for anything brighter, and found it held up well even with some sunlight hitting the screen. Perhaps the Samsung would've done better in that environment, but I would've been about 30 degrees off axis, so I'm not sure how that would've netted out.

There is no difference in HDMI cables. If you can see the picture without visible dropouts or sparklies, the cable is working at 100%. No other cable will display a better version of that picture. You're simply wrong if you think there is a better digital cable than one that is already working. (Oh, and plasma didn't die because of logistics problems, nor does OLED ship in big boxes because it comes from Korea.)
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post #33 of 103 Old 06-27-2012, 05:45 AM
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I don't care whether people prefer LCD, whatever my only issue with what you are posting is that what you say is factually incorrect. You obviously dont understand plasma technology or the fact there is more to motion resolution than refresh rate. Plasmas have faster pixel response time so they dont need to refresh the screen at a higher rate that is a fact look it up. That ESPN ticker stuff is nonsense I have owned plasmas since 2008 and have not had one single instance of IR from either channel logos or tickers. Plasmas are fine performers for sports, regular tv content and movies. Believe whatever you want but you are misinformed on many aspects of plasma performance. As many have pointed out you arent interested in facts just inaccurate generalizations. I am not tying to "convert" anyone but when I see somebody spouting nonsense I am going to respond. We will just agree to disagree.
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post #34 of 103 Old 06-27-2012, 01:07 PM
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I've also yet to see any IR from tickers or from things like -- and yes this will be published in a public place -- the Lifetime logo, which you should all try to catch the next time your wife is watching something on that channel.

I'm going to admit that I don't immediately put up test slides after watching something with a ticker to attempt, Holmes-like, to find the slightest hint of image retention, but I sure as heck don't see any, no matter what content follows. This includes the occasional pause-on-a-white-screen business to test how much buzzing is really going on.

There is no difference in HDMI cables. If you can see the picture without visible dropouts or sparklies, the cable is working at 100%. No other cable will display a better version of that picture. You're simply wrong if you think there is a better digital cable than one that is already working. (Oh, and plasma didn't die because of logistics problems, nor does OLED ship in big boxes because it comes from Korea.)
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post #35 of 103 Old 06-27-2012, 01:28 PM
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http://www.avsforum.com/t/1389009/gt30-massive-image-retention

He probably got it from this thread which has people comparing their panels to 4 year old panasonics. Of course the older panels will have less ir, it's what happens when a panel ages. Just because Samsungs plasma did better in a cnet accident for ir doesn't mean the panasonics are horrible at it, they weren't even calibrated and they use a brighter panel than the Samsung.
People buy lcds for 4 reasons and none have anything to do with picture quality in the average living room:
1: Power: Modern plasmas may draw less power than older ones but edge lit lcds draw less power than older lcds and around half the average plasma.
2: Form factor: Thin is in! tongue.gif The average joe wants the thinnest panel they can get because it's just sexier.
3. Percieved Brightness: How they look in the local best buy's with lighting thats brighter than the sun! (I don't live on the sun biggrin.gif )
4. Fear of BURN IN 0o : People still think that if they leave a static image on the screen for a few minutes it'll jump out of the screen and attack them in an inferno cool.gif

I only see one rational pro for lcds on that list and the amount of power that these displays draw is pretty negligable compared to my 400 watt gaming rig or my 800 watt (rms 2 channel) amplifier.
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post #36 of 103 Old 06-27-2012, 05:28 PM
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Originally Posted by Fanaticalism View Post

AVS used to be a place where people were willing to learn. Now it is just people who read a blog and woke up on the "I'm an expert" side of the bed.

Hey, don't lump us all in that bucket. I still rely on AVSForum to get the advice and expertise of people who know more than I do (and in some regards, care more than I do about some aspects of multimedia devices). smile.gif

I've been ignoring the TV developments for the last several years, and I came back to these forums to update myself on the pros and cons of the various brands and technologies (I'm thinking that my next TV w/ be 60-70").

This is the 1st thread I dived into. I have to say that I am discounting everything that David says based on his replies here. Mik and you have been providing what sound like actual technical facts (which I haven't seen contradicted as of yet, and seem to be supported by more people so that is giving them more credence.

David all I've seen you say is that some polls say that lcd is preferable to plasma for watching sports. I haven't seen a link to those polls, but I'll accept that they exist. But the most interesting thing that could tell me is that among the general populace who watch sports, they prefer lcd over plasma. But that really isn't actually all that interesting to me personally, because I would guess that is the same group of people that the stores turn up the brightness to 100% to attract, and I don't fit in that group. I want my TV image to be closer to what is really intended.

And thanks to Mik and a couple of others in this thread, I'm beginning to understand some of the tradeoffs of the current state of lcd and plasma technology in 2012.

ps I was leery of plasma because of burn in and lifetime and power consumption, so it's good to hear how plasma has improved comparatively in the last 5 years in these regards.

Mike
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post #37 of 103 Old 06-27-2012, 05:37 PM
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I'm glad something good came out of our bickering biggrin.gif
Yeah I wouldn't say image retention doesn't exist but it took me a month to see a slight ghost image of the web bar on my panasonic px80u and it went away after a couples hours of watching movies/gaming and I was on the web for up to 8 hours a day on that thing (low contrast settings of course) Plasmas run a lot cooler than they use to as well. These days it's much more likely a power board would fail after 10 years or so than the panels that are being rated for 100000 hours (time will tell of course but I believe it)
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post #38 of 103 Old 06-27-2012, 05:40 PM
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FYI for people comparing the 65VT50 and the ES8000, I just saw an interesting review on Amazon.

This was the review titled Am I the only one here who was NOT impressed with this TV?, June 27, 2012 By Carl
This review is from: Panasonic VIERA TC-P55VT50 55-Inch 1080p Full HD 3D Plasma TV (Electronics), just in case the link above doesn't go exactly there.

It is only 1 person's opinion, but I thought it was balanced.
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post #39 of 103 Old 06-27-2012, 05:53 PM
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Yeah I can believe every word he said. When I first made the switch I found the plasma to be a little dark and under saturated as well.
Eventually I started to notice the subtle shades of color that I had been missing on my cheap LCD. Leaves that I thought looked under saturated actually looked just like they were supposed in real life but it was also capable of showing the vivid color that I was used to seeing without turning everything neon.
I can't say I ever found it to be to dark, in a moderately lit room it could go as bright as my LCD but I did find the most accurate mode cinema to be a little dim. The reviewer is probably the kind of person who thinks that a display should be able to blind you in a bright sunlit scene.
Sharpness was never a problem for me either, I found the detail looked less like I was looking at a bunch of square pixels and more like looking through a window. Just my 2 cents smile.gif
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post #40 of 103 Old 06-27-2012, 06:50 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mlippert View Post

FYI for people comparing the 65VT50 and the ES8000, I just saw an interesting review on Amazon.
This was the review titled Am I the only one here who was NOT impressed with this TV?, June 27, 2012 By Carl
This review is from: Panasonic VIERA TC-P55VT50 55-Inch 1080p Full HD 3D Plasma TV (Electronics), just in case the link above doesn't go exactly there.
It is only 1 person's opinion, but I thought it was balanced.

When it comes to items like HDTV displays, I find these consumer reviews worthless. The writer simply prefers LEDs to plasmas, especially in his bright viewing room.
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post #41 of 103 Old 06-28-2012, 12:52 AM
 
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Originally Posted by mlippert View Post

ps I was leery of plasma because of burn in and lifetime and power consumption, so it's good to hear how plasma has improved comparatively in the last 5 years in these regards.
Mike
Actually, plasma hasn't really come that far in 4 years since Pioneer's exit. It has pretty much plateaued/stagnated (with the exception of features like 3D, larger screens and the aforementioned power consumption improvements). Lifetime and burn-in just aren't giant concerns, even for sets made in 2008...now 2007 might be a slightly different story. wink.gif
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post #42 of 103 Old 06-28-2012, 12:49 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mlippert View Post

FYI for people comparing the 65VT50 and the ES8000, I just saw an interesting review on Amazon.
This was the review titled Am I the only one here who was NOT impressed with this TV?, June 27, 2012 By Carl
This review is from: Panasonic VIERA TC-P55VT50 55-Inch 1080p Full HD 3D Plasma TV (Electronics), just in case the link above doesn't go exactly there.
It is only 1 person's opinion, but I thought it was balanced.

I find it balanced, but entirely irrelevant.

I've seen the Samsung he refers to in store. It's really not a bad TV. It's pretty wholly unsatisfactory off-axis however, so I'm unclear how anyone could possibly cite that as a strength, despite his logic for doing so. Also, the Samsung's surface is a mirror, even more so than the Panasonic. I guess the review sees the high output powering past that in some conditions, but let's not pretend that it's objectively better overall. It's fair to say that the reflectivity of each is irritating in certain conditions and perhaps in some of those the Samsung is better (but the reverse is also true).

I'm also not really clear why really bright room performance should be one's top criteria for buying a TV. But even still, my wife and I are absolutely enjoying the VT50 when we have the lights up or some sun streaming in. I'm sure if I had a brighter LCD sitting next to it, I'd notice that the LCD was brighter, but that just doesn't remain a valid test. I know some people think it does. But if the TV is bright enough, the colors are true, the contrast present... the picture is right.

(Note: The Panasonic is clearly coming up short on commercials that end with white backgrounds, colored text. The white is not that white. If this will interfere with your TV enjoyment, don't buy a plasma.)

There is no difference in HDMI cables. If you can see the picture without visible dropouts or sparklies, the cable is working at 100%. No other cable will display a better version of that picture. You're simply wrong if you think there is a better digital cable than one that is already working. (Oh, and plasma didn't die because of logistics problems, nor does OLED ship in big boxes because it comes from Korea.)
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post #43 of 103 Old 06-28-2012, 02:30 PM
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I find it balanced, but entirely irrelevant.
I've seen the Samsung he refers to in store. It's really not a bad TV. It's pretty wholly unsatisfactory off-axis however, so I'm unclear how anyone could possibly cite that as a strength, despite his logic for doing so. Also, the Samsung's surface is a mirror, even more so than the Panasonic. I guess the review sees the high output powering past that in some conditions, but let's not pretend that it's objectively better overall. It's fair to say that the reflectivity of each is irritating in certain conditions and perhaps in some of those the Samsung is better (but the reverse is also true).
I'm also not really clear why really bright room performance should be one's top criteria for buying a TV. But even still, my wife and I are absolutely enjoying the VT50 when we have the lights up or some sun streaming in. I'm sure if I had a brighter LCD sitting next to it, I'd notice that the LCD was brighter, but that just doesn't remain a valid test. I know some people think it does. But if the TV is bright enough, the colors are true, the contrast present... the picture is right.
(Note: The Panasonic is clearly coming up short on commercials that end with white backgrounds, colored text. The white is not that white. If this will interfere with your TV enjoyment, don't buy a plasma.)

I usually hate "+1" replies but if ever a post justified it this was it.

I've actually had customers ignore this and buy based solely on how bright the set was in our overlit showroom (think Death Valley in July at high noon) and call a few days later asking how to make it dimmer because it hurts their eyes in a normally lit living room.

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post #44 of 103 Old 06-28-2012, 02:34 PM
 
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I usually hate "+1" replies but if ever a post justified it this was it.
I've actually had customers ignore this and buy based solely on how bright the set was in our overlit showroom (think Death Valley in July at high noon) and call a few days later asking how to make it dimmer because it hurts their eyes in a normally lit living room.

Did you tell them to take it out of the "TORCH' mode???
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post #45 of 103 Old 06-28-2012, 02:41 PM
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It just goes to show where LCD buyers priorities are, they just want a tv if they really cared about the home theater experience then they would know how a contrast control works tongue.gif
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post #46 of 103 Old 06-28-2012, 05:09 PM
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Did you tell them to take it out of the "TORCH' mode???
I think you missed Steves point. What sold them on the tv was the brightness and once they got it home they had to take away what sold them on it in the first place.
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post #47 of 103 Old 06-28-2012, 05:18 PM
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Originally Posted by vinnie97 View Post

Actually, plasma hasn't really come that far in 4 years since Pioneer's exit. It has pretty much plateaued/stagnated (with the exception of features like 3D, larger screens and the aforementioned power consumption improvements). Lifetime and burn-in just aren't giant concerns, even for sets made in 2008...now 2007 might be a slightly different story. wink.gif


and neither has mass produced edge lit leds/lcds over the last 3 years. while the locally dimming lcds arrays are a very nice improvement,
they'rereally not cost competitive with the best plasmas and still have more issues. so the tech in both is kind of creeping along which makes oled,
or whatever is the next best tech, so exciting.

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post #48 of 103 Old 06-28-2012, 06:58 PM
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Originally Posted by mlippert View Post

Hey, don't lump us all in that bucket. I still rely on AVSForum to get the advice and expertise of people who know more than I do (and in some regards, care more than I do about some aspects of multimedia devices). smile.gif
I've been ignoring the TV developments for the last several years, and I came back to these forums to update myself on the pros and cons of the various brands and technologies (I'm thinking that my next TV w/ be 60-70").
This is the 1st thread I dived into. I have to say that I am discounting everything that David says based on his replies here. Mik and you have been providing what sound like actual technical facts (which I haven't seen contradicted as of yet, and seem to be supported by more people so that is giving them more credence.
David all I've seen you say is that some polls say that lcd is preferable to plasma for watching sports. I haven't seen a link to those polls, but I'll accept that they exist. But the most interesting thing that could tell me is that among the general populace who watch sports, they prefer lcd over plasma. But that really isn't actually all that interesting to me personally, because I would guess that is the same group of people that the stores turn up the brightness to 100% to attract, and I don't fit in that group. I want my TV image to be closer to what is really intended.
And thanks to Mik and a couple of others in this thread, I'm beginning to understand some of the tradeoffs of the current state of lcd and plasma technology in 2012.
ps I was leery of plasma because of burn in and lifetime and power consumption, so it's good to hear how plasma has improved comparatively in the last 5 years in these regards.
Mike

Panasonic has only improved in 1 way, and gotten worse in many others.

Go read AVforums and the green blobs.

Go read HDJ and the BURN IN problem more people are having, and the worse IR people are seeing then even the VT25 had.

Or go read here about the people with the gray lines on the right side of the display that Panasonic has said is "normal and within opperational standards".

You've been suckered in by the cult of Panasonic that choose to ignore the mounting evidence that Panasonic has quality issues and still won't buy back displays from very unhappy owners like Samsung has for many people.


I'm fine if you want to take the words of the cultists here, but find it amusing you ONLY want ME to prove what I say and NOT ONE thing they say.

Good luck with your next set! You will need it IMHO.

buytme
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post #49 of 103 Old 06-28-2012, 08:12 PM
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As Rogo commented in his last post plasmas will dim a bit on an all-white or predominantly white screen while lcds won't. I can see how some people would come to the conclusion that this makes lcd a better choice for Hockey. This doesn't carry over to other sports that don't take place in hockey rinks or on ski slopes etc.





BTW, our store sells more plasmas of all makes and more Panny plasmas than any other store in the chain in Central CA. Number of returns for globs, IR, Gray lines, buzzing, etc=0! I'm not saying that people reporting these problems are liars, just that they are a pretty small number in proportion to sets sold.

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post #50 of 103 Old 06-28-2012, 08:14 PM
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I'm a Samsung fan myself, i don't really like the way Panasonic handled the rising black level fiasco and the ir problems that came with it. It looks like Panasonic got their s**t together this year though. We weren't really argueing agains't Samsung though we were argueing plasmas vs lcds. Cult eh? Joooiin US jooooin US joooin US biggrin.gifbiggrin.gifbiggrin.gif
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post #51 of 103 Old 06-29-2012, 12:46 AM
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Originally Posted by Steve S View Post

As Rogo commented in his last post plasmas will dim a bit on an all-white or predominantly white screen while lcds won't. I can see how some people would come to the conclusion that this makes lcd a better choice for Hockey. This doesn't carry over to other sports that don't take place in hockey rinks or on ski slopes etc.

I should add I really never watch hockey outside of the Olympics. It's just not my sport ever since they canceled an entire NHL season. If I were a huge hockey fan, I probably would've not gotten a plasma. I'm sure it'll be fine for me for the 2014 Olympics and that for the 2018 Olympics, I'll probably enjoy my new 70" OLED.
Quote:
BTW, our store sells more plasmas of all makes and more Panny plasmas than any other store in the chain in Central CA. Number of returns for globs, IR, Gray lines, buzzing, etc=0! I'm not saying that people reporting these problems are liars, just that they are a pretty small number in proportion to sets sold.

Right, and your example is unlikely to be rare. The problems are either rare and/or not worthy of concern to most people.

There is no difference in HDMI cables. If you can see the picture without visible dropouts or sparklies, the cable is working at 100%. No other cable will display a better version of that picture. You're simply wrong if you think there is a better digital cable than one that is already working. (Oh, and plasma didn't die because of logistics problems, nor does OLED ship in big boxes because it comes from Korea.)
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post #52 of 103 Old 06-29-2012, 05:54 AM
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So this is really an anti panasonic rant ? gotcha And Samsungs have no issues ? Thanks for revealing your agenda

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post #53 of 103 Old 06-29-2012, 01:28 PM
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So this is really an anti panasonic rant ? gotcha And Samsungs have no issues ? Thanks for revealing your agenda

Who is this post responding to? Since it follows my post, which is obviously not anti-Panasonic, a rant, or based on an agenda, I am confused...

There is no difference in HDMI cables. If you can see the picture without visible dropouts or sparklies, the cable is working at 100%. No other cable will display a better version of that picture. You're simply wrong if you think there is a better digital cable than one that is already working. (Oh, and plasma didn't die because of logistics problems, nor does OLED ship in big boxes because it comes from Korea.)
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post #54 of 103 Old 06-29-2012, 02:18 PM
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Originally Posted by rogo View Post

Who is this post responding to? Since it follows my post, which is obviously not anti-Panasonic, a rant, or based on an agenda, I am confused...

IMO, he's responding to David_B, who turned his anti-plasma posts to anti-Panny, hence the reference to his hidden agenda. As if Samsung displays don't have issues (there is no perfect display, unfortunately).
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post #55 of 103 Old 06-29-2012, 06:59 PM
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I have a Panasonic plasma, the minimum MLL has risen and it's IR is horrible.

I have a Samsung plasma, that has very little IR, the minimum MLL hasn't risen a stitch in 3 years.

I have another Samsung plasma that shows zero IR, the minimum MLL hasn't risen a stitch in the 1 year I've had it.

Are the Samsung's perfect? No, Hockey can be annoying in some of the ice rinks with overhead Flash units slaved to the still photographer's camera. Put the Panasonics do the exact same thing.

If you like Panasonic and it's corporate liars, the minimum MLL that went up 3 years in a row, 2 of those that the Panasonic corporate Liars said it wouldn't, be my guest to believe in them now.

I have no hidden agenda other then to say why I like certain TVs, what I find a deal breaker and such.

Guess what? You have your own opinions that aren't the same as mine. Instead of not liking my opinion and disagreeing with them, you just want to say bad things about me. That's OK to. You are who you are. I'll never meet you, I'll never get to know you, and I sure don't care about your opinions. But you are, once again, welcome to them.


The OP was about which is better, for certain things which he spelled out. And IMHO, the LCD fit him better because of the issues I talked about.

Now, for the 3rd time, it's my opinion and instead of respectfully disagreeing you go off on personal attacks. The OP could read what I said, read what you say and make up his mind without your personal attacks on me. I'm glad he made his decision I hope it works out for him and the issues I've brought up don't cause him to regret the purchase.
I
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Originally Posted by BillP View Post

IMO, he's responding to David_B, who turned his anti-plasma posts to anti-Panny, hence the reference to his hidden agenda. As if Samsung displays don't have issues (there is no perfect display, unfortunately).
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post #56 of 103 Old 06-29-2012, 08:23 PM
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It's a little sad that your trying to turn this on everyone else here. Yes I may have been a little snarky when I asked why Plasmas suck for hockey but that's only because you didn't give any background information as to why you thought that, you came off a little ignorant. Everyone else here backs up everything they say. Your welcome to your opinion but when you say that everything I know is wrong then it becomes a factual argument in which you didn't provide any facts.
Response time is not an opinion which is why I debated it to which you replied "whatever". Respect is earned, if you want me to respect your opinions and knowledge you have to respect mine wink.gif
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post #57 of 103 Old 06-30-2012, 11:53 AM
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I have owned 2 Panny HDTVs and 2 Samsug HDTVs over the years, and I have only had problems with the 2 Samsungs, one of which is a total lemon. Also, I have seen absolutely no IR with my VT30 plasma.
As I'm sure you know, Panny has finally solved the rising black level problem, so basing a recommendation for the OP on past year's models is not giving great advice, IMO.
Yes, Panny did not handle some of their issues well. But neither did Samsung (just ask many Samsung plasma owners with loud buzzing and peeling screens and even cracking screens that Samsung refused to deal with).
As I stated above, there is no perfect display, but Panny does get better reviews for reliability and customer service than Samsung (just check out Consumer Reports).
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post #58 of 103 Old 06-30-2012, 05:28 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BillP View Post

I have owned 2 Panny HDTVs and 2 Samsug HDTVs over the years, and I have only had problems with the 2 Samsungs, one of which is a total lemon. Also, I have seen absolutely no IR with my VT30 plasma.
As I'm sure you know, Panny has finally solved the rising black level problem, so basing a recommendation for the OP on past year's models is not giving great advice, IMO.
Yes, Panny did not handle some of their issues well. But neither did Samsung (just ask many Samsung plasma owners with loud buzzing and peeling screens and even cracking screens that Samsung refused to deal with).
As I stated above, there is no perfect display, but Panny does get better reviews for reliability and customer service than Samsung (just check out Consumer Reports).
Samsung has fixed every pealing screen. How many VT10s has panasonic fixed for premature raising MLL? Zero

I have not read 1 person that has had a buzzer not taken back by the selling store.


We can go on and on about this if you want, but you guys have taken this thread way off course.

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post #59 of 103 Old 06-30-2012, 05:38 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by David_B View Post

samaung has fixed every pealing screen. How many VT10s has panasonic fixed for premature raising MLL? Zero
I have not read 1 person that has had a buzzer not taken back by the selling store.
We can go on andon about this if you want,, but you guys have taken this thread way off course.
David, which Panasonic do you own?
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post #60 of 103 Old 06-30-2012, 06:39 PM
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"but you guys have taken this thread way off course" Yeah we're the culprits biggrin.gif screw the facts, how dare we correct your dungload of misinformation. You've been argueing with us for the last 2 pages and when you lose one argument you somehow link it to a different argument if only to spew more misinformation rolleyes.gif Ir on plasmas is no worse than it has ever been, samsung has just as many issues as panasonic and the new generation of plasmas are anything but dim. <<<- biggrin.gif These are called facts David you can not argue against facts.
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