Samsung 60ES8000 or Panasonic 65VT50? - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 103 Old 06-19-2012, 09:10 PM - Thread Starter
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Narrowed it down to the two TVs but at a stand still. He currently have a older Samsung LCD but looking to go bigger. We have a 17 x 16 living room with a fair amount of light during the day. Leaning towards the Panasonic but didn't know if it would bright enough. Like the look of LED but don't know if it would handle sports or gaming as good as the Plasma? Ive been in and out of BB adjusting displays and watching different material. I think this time around I've done to much research. Don't want plasma buzz or burn in but don't want a smaller screen that cost more with lesser blacks and lag? Any help would be great even though I'm making this harder than it should be.
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post #2 of 103 Old 06-20-2012, 04:03 PM
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If you don't watch in the dark or near dark, and you like the picture quality of the LCD, it's a bit better for Sports in a bright room then the Panasonic.

If you watch in a well lit room, LCD is better. Plasma's strength is in Movies.

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post #3 of 103 Old 06-20-2012, 06:29 PM
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Originally Posted by David_B View Post

If you don't watch in the dark or near dark, and you like the picture quality of the LCD, it's a bit better for Sports and a bright room then the Panasonic.
If you watch in a well lit room, LCD is better. Plasma's strength is in Movies.

Wait, are you saying the Samsung is better for sports? That is quite a bit of misinformation there not to mention the VT has received very good reviews for bright room performance.
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post #4 of 103 Old 06-21-2012, 03:56 AM
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Originally Posted by Fanaticalism View Post

Wait, are you saying the Samsung is better for sports? That is quite a bit of misinformation there not to mention the VT has received very good reviews for bright room performance.

Don't let your plasma fanboy blind you.

LCD with its higher refresh rate looks far better than plasma. And don't even bring up hockey, which plasma's can't show properly now.

I have all plasmas, but if I watched mostly live sports in a lit room I would have bought an led/lcd.

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post #5 of 103 Old 06-21-2012, 10:26 AM
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Plasmas actually refresh faster than lcds David. Just for kicks i will bring up hockey, explain your reasoning please smile.gif
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post #6 of 103 Old 06-21-2012, 03:00 PM
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Originally Posted by Mik James View Post

Plasmas actually refresh faster than lcds David. Just for kicks i will bring up hockey, explain your reasoning please smile.gif

Mike, i appreciate what you believe, but its all wrong.

No plasma has a screen refresh rate of 120hz let alone beyond that. The 600 number you read about or the 2400 number is not screen refresh.

Also do a search on hockey in the plasma forum.

But if you are happy with hockey on you plasma, i would suggest ignorance is bliss.

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post #7 of 103 Old 06-21-2012, 03:36 PM
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Originally Posted by Fanaticalism View Post

Wait, are you saying the Samsung is better for sports? That is quite a bit of misinformation there not to mention the VT has received very good reviews for bright room performance.

I'm quite happy with my VT50 in a bright room. The plasma it replaced was very meh in a bright room.

There is no difference in HDMI cables. If you can see the picture without visible dropouts or sparklies, the cable is working at 100%. No other cable will display a better version of that picture. You're simply wrong if you think there is a better digital cable than one that is already working.
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post #8 of 103 Old 06-21-2012, 06:14 PM
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How do you appreciate what i believe if it's all wrong ( It isn't by the way) Last time i checked hockey isn't shot at 240 frames per second or even 120 frames per second. Plasmas have a faster pixel response time, it doesn't matter how many extra frames you chuck into your video if the 2ms response time or 4ms response time of lcds can't keep up.
I'm familiar with how sub field drive works and it wasn't primarily created to address motion so much as flicker because plasmas for the most part don't have problems with motion.
I hate hockey tongue.gif and all sports in general, i'm a gamer which provides a case for the much faster pixel response time of plasma at 60 frames per second with no video motion blur going on.
The fact is 240hz lcds work just fine for video as will a plasma so there's nothing to argue about, if you want to continue the argument i would suggest you read up on the sample and hold effect.
As well as what happens when that lcd pixel has to change from black to white rather than grey to grey (I'll give you a hint, it doesn't do it in 2ms, 4ms or even the textbook ideal 8ms.

Those of us who back up our statements with facts tend to be considered a little less ignorant than those who spout things like "plasma sucks for hockey"
Your attitude is a little sad, which leads me to believe that nothing i tell you will sink in anyways so i'm not going to bother.
I am pretty blissful and always willing to learn (which means i don't fit the profile of an ignorant person) if you care to say something other than "you are wrong" and occasionally throw some facts in then i might learn something from you otherwise everything you say is meaningless smile.gif
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post #9 of 103 Old 06-21-2012, 07:02 PM
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Saleen you shouldn't have to worry about burn in unless you are planning to leave a game menu on overnight, or you are planning to watch alot of 4:3 material.
i usedmy panny plasma as a monitor and didn't have any problems with burn in even though i had the internet explorer bar showing for 4-5 hours a day.

Pansonics seem to have their buzzing pretty well under control, there is a slight buzz if you hold your ear right up to one but i didn't notice it on my 2008 panasonic plasma.

You shouldn't really have to worry about pixel response time on either panel but you should watch out for phosphor lag on plasmas (blue and yellow rainbows)
it fades as the display ages and you will likely get used to it as i have (i see it on my crt from time to time as well) but it's something to look out for.
On the lcd side of things many people complain about the soap opera effect due to the motion interpolation put in place to reduce judder and blur on lcds, the motion interpolation can be turned off and a high end lcd like es8000 should do fine for motion resolution even when it is turned off (though probably not quite as good as the plasma)

Lesser Blacks is something you will have to live with if you use the tv at night, the es8000 shouldn't be much worse than the lcd you already have, i haven't seen any reviews of the es8000 yet but if the es6000 is anything to go by the st50 will likely show a much deeper shade of black.

Something else to look out for on an edge lit led,lcd like the es8000 is the uniformity of the panel, (how even the brightness is across the panel) it will be most noticeable at night though.
Viewing angles are far better on a plasma (the picture won't wash out from the sides)

You might notice slight blurring on the lcd with gaming, but that's assuming there isn't already a bunch of cinematic blur applied to the game (I disable any motionblur on pc)

The vt50 does great in a bright room, while it may not get as bright as an led i don't think you would ever need or want (if you value your retinas) the extra brightness the only thing to think about is power draw.

Good luck with whatever you choose and pick a place with a good return policy just in case smile.gif
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post #10 of 103 Old 06-22-2012, 04:24 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mik James View Post

How do you appreciate what i believe if it's all wrong ( It isn't by the way) Last time i checked hockey isn't shot at 240 frames per second or even 120 frames per second. Plasmas have a faster pixel response time, it doesn't matter how many extra frames you chuck into your video if the 2ms response time or 4ms response time of lcds can't keep up.
I'm familiar with how sub field drive works and it wasn't primarily created to address motion so much as flicker because plasmas for the most part don't have problems with motion.
I hate hockey tongue.gif and all sports in general, i'm a gamer which provides a case for the much faster pixel response time of plasma at 60 frames per second with no video motion blur going on.
The fact is 240hz lcds work just fine for video as will a plasma so there's nothing to argue about, if you want to continue the argument i would suggest you read up on the sample and hold effect.
As well as what happens when that lcd pixel has to change from black to white rather than grey to grey (I'll give you a hint, it doesn't do it in 2ms, 4ms or even the textbook ideal 8ms.
Those of us who back up our statements with facts tend to be considered a little less ignorant than those who spout things like "plasma sucks for hockey"
Your attitude is a little sad, which leads me to believe that nothing i tell you will sink in anyways so i'm not going to bother.
I am pretty blissful and always willing to learn (which means i don't fit the profile of an ignorant person) if you care to say something other than "you are wrong" and occasionally throw some facts in then i might learn something from you otherwise everything you say is meaningless smile.gif

Whatever. But you are ignorant of the qualities of sports on plasma vs lcd.

Like i said, i am not here to rehash the million posts about how horrible people who watch hockey have found new plasmas to be.

Unless you are a world class gamer you wont notice any lag difference.

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post #11 of 103 Old 06-22-2012, 04:25 AM
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Originally Posted by Mik James View Post

Saleen you shouldn't have to worry about burn in unless you are planning to leave a game menu on overnight, or you are planning to watch alot of 4:3 material.
i usedmy panny plasma as a monitor and didn't have any problems with burn in even though i had the internet explorer bar showing for 4-5 hours a day.
Pansonics seem to have their buzzing pretty well under control, there is a slight buzz if you hold your ear right up to one but i didn't notice it on my 2008 panasonic plasma.
You shouldn't really have to worry about pixel response time on either panel but you should watch out for phosphor lag on plasmas (blue and yellow rainbows)
it fades as the display ages and you will likely get used to it as i have (i see it on my crt from time to time as well) but it's something to look out for.
On the lcd side of things many people complain about the soap opera effect due to the motion interpolation put in place to reduce judder and blur on lcds, the motion interpolation can be turned off and a high end lcd like es8000 should do fine for motion resolution even when it is turned off (though probably not quite as good as the plasma)
Lesser Blacks is something you will have to live with if you use the tv at night, the es8000 shouldn't be much worse than the lcd you already have, i haven't seen any reviews of the es8000 yet but if the es6000 is anything to go by the st50 will likely show a much deeper shade of black.
Something else to look out for on an edge lit led,lcd like the es8000 is the uniformity of the panel, (how even the brightness is across the panel) it will be most noticeable at night though.
Viewing angles are far better on a plasma (the picture won't wash out from the sides)
You might notice slight blurring on the lcd with gaming, but that's assuming there isn't already a bunch of cinematic blur applied to the game (I disable any motionblur on pc)
The vt50 does great in a bright room, while it may not get as bright as an led i don't think you would ever need or want (if you value your retinas) the extra brightness the only thing to think about is power draw.
Good luck with whatever you choose and pick a place with a good return policy just in case smile.gif


Lots of people starting to report bad IR and possible burn in on the vt30s.

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post #12 of 103 Old 06-22-2012, 07:58 AM
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We'll if your not here to discuss the pro's and con's of each display and back them up with facts then why are you here?
You don't by any chance have matted fur, live under a bridge and yell at billy goats named gruff do you tongue.gif
You don't have to be the worlds best gamer to notice pixel lag as it presents as blur, i believe your thinking of input lag?
All it takes is a nice dark to light scene transition and all but the best lcds will show a little ghosting (whether or not you notice it is mute, it's been measured, it's a fact biggrin.gif )
Well i'm sure i'll get about as much accurate information out of you as i did when i asked why plasmas apparently suck for hockey but what the heck i'll give it a shot, where are you hearing reports of bad image retention on vt30's ?

Saleen something else to look out for is input lag, if you get that shiny new lcd or plasma home and get a game fired up and then notice the game is lagging behind your button presses don't panic, switch to the game mode (it should disable any unnessecary processing to minimalize input lag.
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post #13 of 103 Old 06-22-2012, 01:18 PM - Thread Starter
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Thanks for the information. I didnt hear back from anyone so I made my choice. I went with the 65VT50. Watched a little bit of TV NBA finals, Black Ops game and Avatar. The picture was really nice on the Avatar movie. Just switched back and forth between settings Game Mode, THX Bright Rm and Vivid. I found Game mode to look the best with my current setup and viewing environment. I will say the tv does look really good. Its weird how I used to not like the soap opera effect but after seeing the Plasma I kind of miss it. Maybe i need to adjust some settings but to me the LCD I moved into the bedroom had more depth, its sharper and brighter and thats a given. The VT50 handles the lighting in my room very well but maybe I just like the extra brightness. I will be making some adjustments and looking for some calibration numbers this weekend. I love the size of the TV, colors and black levels but it just seems like something is missing. I will post pics of my setup this weekend.
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post #14 of 103 Old 06-22-2012, 03:16 PM
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Newer Energy star numbers that plasma's can't meet without doing things like lower the peak brightness when the entire screen is very bright, they can have very bad side effects on sports.


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Originally Posted by 02saleen346 View Post

Thanks for the information. I didnt hear back from anyone so I made my choice. I went with the 65VT50. Watched a little bit of TV NBA finals, Black Ops game and Avatar. The picture was really nice on the Avatar movie. Just switched back and forth between settings Game Mode, THX Bright Rm and Vivid. I found Game mode to look the best with my current setup and viewing environment. I will say the tv does look really good. Its weird how I used to not like the soap opera effect but after seeing the Plasma I kind of miss it. Maybe i need to adjust some settings but to me the LCD I moved into the bedroom had more depth, its sharper and brighter and thats a given. The VT50 handles the lighting in my room very well but maybe I just like the extra brightness. I will be making some adjustments and looking for some calibration numbers this weekend. I love the size of the TV, colors and black levels but it just seems like something is missing. I will post pics of my setup this weekend.
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post #15 of 103 Old 06-22-2012, 03:31 PM
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Originally Posted by David_B View Post

Newer Energy star numbers that plasma's can't meet without doing things like lower the peak brightness when the entire screen is very bright, they can have very bad side effects on sports.

I have a 2010 entry level Panasonic plasma which I spend some time setting up using a calibration DVD. It is Energy Star compliant and it looks absolutely great with sports. Even during day time viewing, It's bright, vivid and has plenty of pop.


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post #16 of 103 Old 06-22-2012, 03:48 PM
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Your probably just not used to the more accurate picture saleen. Thx mode is going to be the most accurate out of the box, with game mode used only if you notice input lag in games. It took me a while to get used to the more subtle shades of color on a plasma as well as the drop in brightness, but once i did i started to notice everything i had been missing, colors didn't need to be over saturated like they were on my lcd the could be both vivid and subtle in the same scene. I guess plasmas might be slightly less sharp or it might just appear that way because it's a bigger tv, make sure you have whatever game system you have setup to output the highest resolution possible over an hdmi cable (unless you start to notice lag in games). Is the 65" vt50 even energy star certified? either way if it was a dim display it wouldn't be reviewed as a great performer in a lit room.
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post #17 of 103 Old 06-23-2012, 10:55 PM
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post #18 of 103 Old 06-25-2012, 12:35 PM
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Originally Posted by David_B View Post

Whatever. But you are ignorant of the qualities of sports on plasma vs lcd.
Like i said, i am not here to rehash the million posts about how horrible people who watch hockey have found new plasmas to be.
Unless you are a world class gamer you wont notice any lag difference.

You are just flat out wrong about sports on a plasma it is stellar and yes I've watched sports on an LCD, Pegging plasmas as only good for movies is inaccurate.

Plasmas have inherantly better motion handling, they dont need to resort to gimmicks like increasing the refresh rate thru either a scanning backlight or inserting artificial frames(these are the methods lcds use to try to mitigate motion issues).
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post #19 of 103 Old 06-25-2012, 12:40 PM
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Originally Posted by chunon View Post

You are just flat out wrong about sports on a plasma it is stellar and yes I've watched sports on an LCD, Pegging plasmas as only good for movies is inaccurate.
Plasmas have inherantly bettter motion handling, they dont need to resort to gimmicks like increasing the refresh rate thru either a scanning backlight or inserting artificial frames(these are the methods lcds use to try to mitigate motion issues).

You are welcome to your opinion, but polls show lcd is better regardless of what a few plasma zelots here say.
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post #20 of 103 Old 06-25-2012, 12:41 PM
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I have a 2010 entry level Panasonic plasma which I spend some time setting up using a calibration DVD. It is Energy Star compliant and it looks absolutely great with sports. Even during day time viewing, It's bright, vivid and has plenty of pop.
Ian

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post #21 of 103 Old 06-25-2012, 12:45 PM
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Okay what poll says that ? People prefer LCD that doesnt make it better. What I just posted isnt opinion it is a fact and I watch sports on a plasma on a regular basis. Picking motion resolution as a con of plasma just doesnt make any sense, do some research that is consistenly identified as a strong point of plasma. I am not anti-LCD to each his own I say but trying to sway someone with bad information is not right imo. Its a shame if you do own plasmas as you claim, that you have not fully realized their potential.

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post #22 of 103 Old 06-25-2012, 01:18 PM
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Its totally worth the effort chunon. Even though david is completely oblivious to facts just think of the humor this thread will bring to avs forum members worldwide. It gives me that warm fuzzy feeling biggrin.gif

He isn't picking on motion resolution as much as brightness (not to say he has any idea what motion resolution or pixel response time is wink.gif ), Even though some larger plasmas have dropped there energy consumption slightly to meet energy star standards they are by no means dim. If they were dim then reviews would reflect that, they may be less bright then smaller models but i highly doubt they are dim.
It took me 10 posts to figure out what the heck you were talking about when you blatantly said plasmas suck for hockey because it took you that long to explain yourself. Yes leds/lcds will obviously do better in a brightly lit room it's their bread and butter. 2012 plasmas from Panasonic are great multi taskers however, they do very well in a lit room and put out a fantastic picture at a price much lower than a comparable lcd.
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post #23 of 103 Old 06-25-2012, 02:48 PM
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Originally Posted by David_B View Post

You are welcome to your opinion, but polls show lcd is better regardless of what a few plasma zelots here say.

I guess that's why the VT50 plasma won the VE shootout, and has been named best 2012 display in pretty much every review. And nobody has any idea what poll you are referring to? Yes, people prefer LCDs in bright showrooms under fluorescent lights, but that's not how anybody watches TV.
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post #24 of 103 Old 06-25-2012, 05:57 PM
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What eek.gif No it won because it's a horribly dim display that sucks for sports tongue.gifwink.gifbiggrin.gifrolleyes.giftongue.gifwink.gifbiggrin.gif Noone should ever buy a plasma ever because lcds are CLEARLY better in every way. Who wants perfect viewing angles, wicked fast response times and deep black levels, that stuff is so overated tongue.gifrolleyes.gifwink.gifbiggrin.giftongue.gifwink.gifbiggrin.gifcool.gif
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post #25 of 103 Old 06-25-2012, 10:17 PM
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Originally Posted by David_B View Post

Mike, i appreciate what you believe, but its all wrong.
No plasma has a screen refresh rate of 120hz let alone beyond that. The 600 number you read about or the 2400 number is not screen refresh.
Also do a search on hockey in the plasma forum.
But if you are happy with hockey on you plasma, i would suggest ignorance is bliss.


It is safe to say that you can be ignored going forward. The blurring in the panels does not occur due to refresh rate but the manner in which the displays sample an image. The sample and hold is what creates the blurring as it causes retinal smearing. Our optics are not all the same which is why some see blurring and others don't (even on a 60hz LCD panel).

The reason why plasmas are perceived to be better for motion is because they have reduced hold times and are basically pulses of light. LCD introduced back light scanning and white/black frame insertion to compensate for hold time deficiencies.

Your posts are not only misinformed but calling others bias to deflect your own won't win you any more credibility.

P.S. My explanations are short as I don't feel like getting into a back and forth when it won't lead to anything. AVS used to be a place where people were willing to learn. Now it is just people who read a blog and woke up on the "I'm an expert" side of the bed.

PPS. What do ES guidelines have to do with sports? Those guidelines only apply to standard mode on plasmas. For someone who has been on this forum for over 10 years, your lack of knowledge is startling and detrimental, as some may take you seriously based solely off your time here.
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post #26 of 103 Old 06-26-2012, 03:50 AM
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Feel free to hit the little "ignore" button on me. Makes zero difference.

PS, to all trying to say your dimmer worse light rejecting plasmas can hold a flame to LED/LCD, I suggest you check out the "shootout" and its stats and see which tv had the highest light output.

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Originally Posted by Fanaticalism View Post

It is safe to say that you can be ignored going forward. The blurring in the panels does not occur due to refresh rate but the manner in which the displays sample an image. The sample and hold is what creates the blurring as it causes retinal smearing. Our optics are not all the same which is why some see blurring and others don't (even on a 60hz LCD panel).
The reason why plasmas are perceived to be better for motion is because they have reduced hold times and are basically pulses of light. LCD introduced back light scanning and white/black frame insertion to compensate for hold time deficiencies.
Your posts are not only misinformed but calling others bias to deflect your own won't win you any more credibility.
P.S. My explanations are short as I don't feel like getting into a back and forth when it won't lead to anything. AVS used to be a place where people were willing to learn. Now it is just people who read a blog and woke up on the "I'm an expert" side of the bed.
PPS. What do ES guidelines have to do with sports? Those guidelines only apply to standard mode on plasmas. For someone who has been on this forum for over 10 years, your lack of knowledge is startling and detrimental, as some may take you seriously based solely off your time here.

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post #27 of 103 Old 06-26-2012, 04:43 AM
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So light output is the one and only criteria for a superior picture, hmmmm guess black levels, viewing angles etc dont play a factor, guess all of the plasma owners are just ignorant folk that dont understand the brighter a picture is the better it is. Thanks for educating me.

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post #28 of 103 Old 06-26-2012, 07:35 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by David_B View Post

Feel free to hit the little "ignore" button on me. Makes zero difference.
PS, to all trying to say your dimmer worse light rejecting plasmas can hold a flame to LED/LCD, I suggest you check out the "shootout" and its stats and see which tv had the highest light output.

Oh, I won't put you on ignore. I just wanted to make a point in saying that your "guidance" can now safely be ignored as your lack of knowledge is clearly evident. You never debate using science or common sense for that matter. You don't back up your claims with facts and when you try you don't understand the facts enough to make a logical point of view.

Considering all panels were calibrated to 35-36fl of peak light output, minimal to none. Full field whites are not the main criteria for judging performance. it is a combination of both black and white that determine dynamic range.
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post #29 of 103 Old 06-26-2012, 10:25 AM
 
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Yup, max brightness is waaay down the totem pole on what comprises PQ.
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post #30 of 103 Old 06-26-2012, 05:45 PM
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Do I really really have to go over this entire thread? Or do you just want to pick out 4 words of mine and missreprsent them every couple of posts?

ALMOST all people will "pick" a brighter more vivid picture.

ALMOST all people will choose a 120hz/240hz LCD/LED showing a bright picture with live sports over a dimmer 60hz Plasma showing sports.

These are just the facts.

You might like black levels, and the more "film like" display 24/48/96fps of Plasma can provide, but without the lower prices of Plasma, they would have been dead in the consumer market years ago because ALMOST ALL people like the brighter picture of an LCD/LED.

If you read the thread also, you will see I prefer plasmas, I have plasmas, and I wouldn't even buy the elite if it where the same price as a plasma.

You can stick your head in the sand and ignore the real facts that most people prefer LCD all you want, it won't change facts.

For ever person you think you can "convert" to Plasma, there will be 10 that think your love for plasma is crazy.

You can love whatever you like, but most people wouldn't agree with you or any other plasma lover that plasma's look better. We are a minority.

People that play video games on a Plasma will ALWAYS regret buying a plasma after they start to see the HUDS of games burned into their $2000 to $4000 plasma.

I will never be one to tell someone that likes Sports, with the ever present scrolling tickertapes at the bottom, logos all over the bottom of the screen, and that play hours of Video games with HUDS that will burn in after a few years to get a Plasma.

Plasma's are for mostly Film and light Gaming/Sports.

If you love Sports and Gaming, get an LCD.

Good luck to the OP. I hope he got one of the VT's that don't get horrible IR like many people are starting to see as the VT30/50s are ageing.
Quote:
Originally Posted by chunon View Post

So light output is the one and only criteria for a superior picture, hmmmm guess black levels, viewing angles etc dont play a factor, guess all of the plasma owners are just ignorant folk that dont understand the brighter a picture is the better it is. Thanks for educating me.
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