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post #91 of 292 Old 07-05-2012, 07:42 PM
 
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Certainly the debate of Plasma vs. LCD/has been discussed and will continue to be discussed. That said, in most real world, everyday viewing environments, plasma panels are irksome and really a compromise. A TV should be able to display a bright image during daytime viewing with higher ambient light levels. What some consider as "overly bright" is an excuse for "not bright enough" and overly glossy glass screens of most plasma TVs. Color accuracy and black levels are where a plasma excels to be sure, but only if you are willing to allow for the very real image retention, screen burn issues, running "slides" for a break in period and other finicky issues.

All one needs to do is go to a number of outlets selling both plasma and LCD/LED and see that, over all, plasma displays are inexpensive, but can't seem to quite compete with LCD/LED panels costing only a bit more these days. And some brands still seem to have complaints of "floating" or rising black level after hours of operation. Plasma TVs seem to require a bit more routine maintenance to continue the better perceived level of picture quality. Lastly, it is plain to see that TV makers are spending most of their research and development in other flat panel improvements including LED/LCD.
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Originally Posted by Guibs View Post

This is NOT the reason people "break in" their TV. It has NOTHING to do with IR. Plasma color and brightness tend to shift withing the first 100 or so hours. After that it settles to what should be their final level. most people break in their TV because they want to accelerate that period so that they can get their TV calibrated without fear that their actual colors and brightness will continue to fluctuate.
It's pure myth that this "help" regarding burn-in.


I never stated break in had anything to do with screen burn. It was merely the second point in one sentence dealing with several issues that plasma panels exhibit. An assumption on your part.tongue.gif Still, it does bring up another "fussy" thing about plasma panels.
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post #92 of 292 Old 07-05-2012, 08:04 PM
 
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Originally Posted by sonyfan View Post

Any TV looks better in the dark and with my Plasma I drop the
Constrast down to 95 or 93 and Brightness to 30 and I'm good to go.
I was watching a 'high contrast' film called Preist and in the dark it looks sick with the Brightness at 25!

Any TV may look "better" in a completely dark room at first, but eye fatigue will set in unless the over all peak light level is pretty low, which is why projector TV systems in home theater set ups have peak light levels down in the 15 to 20 Ftl range. Black levels on most LCD/LED even with local dimming also would not look the best in a completely dark room. Also, most flat panel displays, especially LCD/LED have optimum operating ranges at at least 30 to 50 Ftl which is too bright for an all dark room.

Granted, at first viewing in an all dark room is dramatic, but not ideal for a TV viewed in both daytime and night time conditions. The human eye is not designed to deal with fast and widely varied high contrast images.
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post #93 of 292 Old 07-05-2012, 08:11 PM
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it's funny that most in this thread that go on and on about how big of an issue IR is don't appear to have actually ever owned a plasma TV biggrin.gif

also, there is no need to run break-in in slides or anything else of the sort... and when complaining plasmas can't get bright enough, what light output are they targeting? 40 fL? or 50 fL? or 60 fL? most current panasonic plasmas like the ST/GT/VT50 can do at least 50 fL in the calibrated modes (Cinema/THX/Custom)

in short, do most who complain about these things regarding plasmas have actually owned one for a while at least? or are the impressions based solely on viewing TVs in the store?
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post #94 of 292 Old 07-05-2012, 08:23 PM
 
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Observation is observation and the foibles of both plasma and LCD/LED technology are well documented and published.

Also, many plasma panels can not sustain a peak white level of 50 Ftl without a dimming effect after a few seconds. . . which can become annoying. Plasma technology is dated while many more improvements continue to be made in LCD.LED.wink.gif
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post #95 of 292 Old 07-05-2012, 08:34 PM
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It's important to be able to separate fact from opinion and to also be able to clarify between the two when posting in a public forum. Sadly, this often isn't what happens when topics like LCD vs. Plasma get discussed (and I'm sure it's equally bad in the plasma forum too, to be fair). So what can one do if they need accurate and unbiased facts regarding two different display technologies and specific models of each type? Sites like CNET.com and ConsumerReports.org are not perfect, but certainly quite helpful. Also, careful readers of forums like AVSForum.com should be able to isolate the posts that are purely factual and not opinionated (and also up to date and provable), so that they may learn about long-term qualities of a display that cannot be tested by most professional reviewers and for things that can vary from sample to sample like the panel lottery and screen uniformity issues and the like.

I would recommend that anyone looking for TV buying advice here or on any other forum or website with user reviews takes such issues into account when gathering research so that they base their decision on sound, factual advice and not the far too common highly one-sided posts/reviews that are more emotional and opinionated than helpful or accurate. If this post helps even one new member looking for advice regarding their next TV purchase, it's worthwhile.

Just my two cents.
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post #96 of 292 Old 07-05-2012, 09:43 PM
 
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Surely technology keeps advancing and changing. And there are a plethora of "expert" data to consider regarding the current or future status and merits of something like plasma TV panels. Therein lies the problem. . . which "expert" opinions to consider. But why get that complex. Plasma TVs are generally cheaper and fewer in supply except in one TV maker or two. But there are articles on the web for us to help make a purchasing decision. I personally value the articles not connected with heavy ads or who have commercial ties. Even CNET and Consumer Reports are not immune from advertising influence. Here are a few I've found of good substance:

http://www.digitaltrends.com/features/the-future-of-television-and-hdtv/

http://www.the-home-cinema-guide.com/plasma-tv-problems.html#axzz1zoIZ3x00

A few of the main issues that most people find with plasma is the higher energy the screens use and heat produced. The glare on glossy glass screens, as well as aging issues that may be more significant than LCD/LED counterparts.
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post #97 of 292 Old 07-05-2012, 10:08 PM
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Plasmas are currently made by Panasonic, Samsung, and LG. Sure, it's only three brands but those brands are among the best for current LCD/LED/Plasma flat-panel displays. Let's look are CR.org for one aspect of plasmas usually criticized: reflective screens that also lead to washed out blacks and diminished contrast ratio when watching the TV during the day. The review of the Panasonic 55" ST50 is below. As you can see, the screen is reflective like most pricier LED-LCDs (and even some older premium CCFL-LCDs), but it holds it's blacks/contrast very well. As a bonus, it also has plenty of brightness for most rooms.



"Panasonic Viera TC-P55ST50

Reviews & Recommended - Panasonic Viera TC-P55ST50

CR's Take
This 55-inch 3D-capable 1080p plasma, from Panasonic's step-up ST50 series, is among the top performers in our Ratings, with excellent high-definition picture quality. It's also one of only a handful of tested sets that has excellent 3D performance, making it a great choice if you plan to watch much 3D content. The TV has built-in Wi-Fi and Panasonic's full Viera Connect online service, with a full Web browser, access to an apps market, and streaming movies and TV shows from Amazon, CinemaNow, Hulu Plus, Netflix, and Vudu. Like all plasma 3D TVs it uses active 3D technology. To view 3D you'll need to buy the latest glasses from Panasonic that synchronize to the TV via Bluetooth. These glasses are much lighter and cheaper than earlier-generation active 3D glasses (which will not work on 2012 TVs).

Highs
• Excellent HD image detail
• Excellent color accuracy
• Very good, deep black levels
• Unlimited viewing angle
• 3D performance was very good
• Very low ghosting in 3D mode
• Full 1080p resolution to each eye in 3D mode
• Minimal motion blur

Lows
• 3D image brightness is on the dim side

Detailed test results

PICTURE QUALITY. This model had excellent high-definition picture quality. It did a top-notch job displaying the finest detail. Color accuracy was excellent, so colors looked very natural and life-like. Very good contrast--the difference between the darkest blacks and brightest whites--gave images depth and dimension. The brightness level was good, making it a suitable choice for most rooms. The TV had deep black levels, just shy of the best sets. There was slight banding (unnatural contours) on scenes with subtly shaded light-to-dark areas, such as a sky during sunset, rather than a smooth transition in the shaded areas. Film mode operation for HD film-based content was excellent, with no visible jaggies along the edges of objects during motion scenes. Deinterlacing was very good, with minimal jaggies visible when converting 1080i content to the display's native resolution.

SCREEN REFLECTIVITY. The glossy screen surface on this plasma TV is susceptible to reflections from a nearby lamp or window, though the darker screen technology it uses minimizes reflections to some extent. The dark screen also makes it less prone to glare than most plasmas we've tested and helps maintain good contrast even in a bright room.

VIEWING ANGLE. The overall viewing angle on this display is unlimited, as with all plasma TVs we've tested. Color accuracy, contrast, and depth of black level did not vary regardless of viewing position, unlike what we've seen with LCD TVs."




"Panasonic Viera TC-P50U50

Reviews & Recommended - Panasonic Viera TC-P50U50

CR's Take
This 50-inch 1080p plasma HDTV, in Panasonic's entry-level plasma series--offers excellent high-definition picture quality at a relatively low price, making it a CR Best Buy. It's a great choice for those looking for more basic set without 3D or Internet capability.

Highs
• Excellent HD image detail
• Excellent color accuracy
• Very good deep black levels
• Unlimited viewing angle
• Minimal motion blur

Lows
• Image brightness is on the dim side
• Screen surface more mirror-like than most
• This model has fewer useful features than most

Detailed test results

PICTURE QUALITY. This model had excellent high-definition picture quality. It did a top-notch job displaying the finest detail. Color accuracy was excellent, so colors looked very natural and lifelike. Contrast--the difference between the darkest blacks and brightest whites--was good, so images showed some depth and dimension. In this respect, the TV was similar to most of the models we test. Brightness level was only fair, dimmer than most, best-suited for a darker room. The TV had deep black levels, just shy of the best sets. There was slight banding (unnatural contours) on scenes with subtly shaded light-to-dark areas, such as a sky during sunset, rather than a smooth transition in the shaded areas.

SCREEN REFLECTIVITY. The shiny screen surface on this plasma TV is very reflective, among the more mirror-like we've seen, so it's not the best choice for bright, sunny rooms. This display does not use the darker screen technology we've seen on better plasmas to reduce glare, so the image will lose contrast or wash out if any light falls upon the screen.

VIEWING ANGLE. The overall viewing angle on this display is unlimited, as with all plasma TVs we've tested. Color accuracy, contrast, and depth of black level did not vary regardless of viewing position, unlike what we've seen with LCD TVs."

This cheaper entry-level 1080p 2012 Plasma from Panasonic does fall victim to the flaws of dim light output and a less than ideal screen coating... So, between these two TVs, you get what you pay for. Some Plasmas will work great in a typical room during the day while others require a more light controlled environment. It also shows that reviews from sources like CR.org can be helpful at minimum in some ways. BTW, these two review samples were not cherry-picked; they are the only two reviews of 2012 Panasonic Plasmas currently on the site. Since the Panasonic Plasmas are the most popular recommendations, I chose to share those reviews. The ST50 is one of the best Plasma choices for 2012 and PQ wise is equal to the pricier GT50 and VT50. CNET loves all three.

http://reviews.cnet.com/best-hdtvs/?tag=leftnav
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post #98 of 292 Old 07-06-2012, 05:16 AM
 
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CES 2012 Post Show Report Part Four -Panasonic’s HDTV LED/LCD Line
February 1st, 2012 ·


Panasonic brought a number of HDTV surprises to Las Vegas with the debut of its new 2012 LCD and plasma lines. The electronics giant revealed performance improvements in both TV technologies. The LED LCD line-up features for the first time 47 and 55-Inch IPS panels to compete head on with Samsungs and LG top of the line products. Its new WT series models showed a performance improvement that leapfrogs every LED LCD makers panels performance to date.

For years Panasonic lagged behind Samsung and LG in LED styling and form factor, but not any longer. Panasonic also significantly raised the performance bar with its 2012 WT series. During the CES demo the new WT models outperformed every other LED LCD we saw at CES in viewing angle, maintaining color saturation and contrast from even extreme viewing positions (see photo below). This is the first time we have witnessed off-axis LED LCD viewing that rivals plasma performance. These 47 and 55-Inch LED LCDs pack new signal processing, Full HD 3D, scanning LED backlight with local dimming and more in a beautiful skinny aluminum finished edge bezel and sports a depth of just 1.1-Inches

The complete LED and LCD line includes eight series with a total of eighteen models. The screen sizes range from 32 to 55-Inches. Below we list the top features of the WT along with screen sizes of the other model series.


PANASONIC-WT-view-2-580.jpg

Off Angle View

Panasonic-WT-Off-Axis-580.jpg

This top-of-the-line WT series of “Full HD 3D” 1080 LED LCD holds its own against any competitors’ models in terms of performance and styling. Available in the 55-Inch screen size as the TC-L55WT50 and a 47-Inch TC-L47WT50. Top features include:

IPS LED LCD wide viewing panel- provides high contrast and vivid color even at extreme off-axis viewing positions

Four aspect ratios

Clear Panel Pro anti glare filter

1920 scanning backlight (240 Hz refresh x 8 scanning segments= 1920)

16 zones of local dimming

24Hz playback

ISF ccc calibration

Pro Settings

Vivid Color creation- analyzes color contrast and skin tones for optimization

Video content smoother-eliminates judder on YouTube and other web videos

Full HD 3D with active glasses

2D-3D conversion with face detection

Built-in eight speaker sound plus rear sub-woofer

18 watts total sound system power

4 HDMI side inputs

Overall, these new LED TVs offer all the other many benefits of LED/LCD TVs also, such as low screen reflectivity, lower power consumption and less heat than plasma TVs, and no concerns of image retention, floating or rising black levels, plasma cell aging issues, and more.


Owners experience with actual purchased TVs often are much better than individual sample or early release TV models that CNET, Consumer Reports, and other commercial reviews sites get to review.
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post #99 of 292 Old 07-06-2012, 10:33 AM
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nice to see a top-of-the-line IPS panel LED-LCD... does LG make a comparable TV to it?

is it edge-lit? 16 ld zones doesn't sound like much
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post #100 of 292 Old 07-06-2012, 12:12 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HLdan View Post

Could you provide the source as to where you read that the 2012 plasmas were very susceptible to burn-in?

Yes. Samsung wins hands down.

http://reviews.cnet.com/8301-33199_7-57449881-221/samsung-plasma-wins-cnets-accidental-burn-in-test/
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post #101 of 292 Old 07-06-2012, 09:49 PM
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All plasmas are susceptible to image retention, its the nature of the beast, no getting around it. Burn in is another story, you pretty much have to abuse your plasma to get it. Seems like Panny plasmas are rather more susceptible to IR this year though.
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post #102 of 292 Old 07-06-2012, 10:04 PM
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Originally Posted by digmor crusher View Post

All plasmas are susceptible to image retention, its the nature of the beast, no getting around it. Burn in is another story, you pretty much have to abuse your plasma to get it. Seems like Panny plasmas are rather more susceptible to IR this year though.

+1, a reasonable and accurate appraisal of the technology... So, if IR is only temporary then the remaining question is whether it a bothersome enough to an individual to make LCD/LED the only remaining choice.
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post #103 of 292 Old 07-08-2012, 08:09 AM
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I have a LG LV 9500 LCD led 480 Hz nano local dimming! What amazed me is the low power consumption,at full power it is 98 watts! I don't know how good the newer plasma TV's are with power consumption,but they used to be barn burners.
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post #104 of 292 Old 07-08-2012, 09:22 AM
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Originally Posted by pds3 View Post

Can't say I ever knew anybody with burn in issues on a modern LCD tv.
Just do a general search for Panasonic Image Retention. You will find more than a few complaints. You don't think Panasonic is going to tell you about the problem on their website do you?

Okay, let's make sure we're talking about the same thing. You mentioned Burn-In earlier and then I responded to that, now you're talking Image Retention. Where are you going with this? If you actually meant Image Retention then yes of course, I have a GT50 and I get IR at times if the letterbox is displayed too long but it goes away, but there is zero proof that the new 2012 Panasonic's have had any Burn-In. If you're classifying Burn-in being the same as Image Retention then that's inaccurate because they are not the same. Burn-in is permanent and Image Retention is not.
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post #105 of 292 Old 07-08-2012, 09:34 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by andy sullivan View Post

There are plenty of complaints on the 2012 Panasonic AVS sight to indicate that IR is a concern. When some say they have sent there set back and the new replacement is just as bad, that's a concern. When experienced Panasonic plasma owners are saying that IR is rearing it's ugly head shortly after running break-in slides that's a concern. When new owners are saying the Samsung's have no IR and the Panasonic's do, that's a concern. I'm in the market for a 65 inch or larger display and I'm concerned. The professional reviews of the 2012 Panasonic's rave about the great PQ but the don't keep the sets long enough to see if IR becomes a problem.

Okay, I should've used Multi-Quote but I just noticed your post. TBH, you should really check all the threads. I've seen the same posts in favor of the Panasonic. There are people here that say they've had their 2012 Panny's since they were first released and have not experienced a single amount of IR. Now, I got IR at times but that doesn't mean that the people that say they haven't gotten it have a better set than mine, it just depends on the content. For the record, I'm sorry to tell you that you're giving the Samsungs too much credit. I went into multiple electronics stores in my area and have seen IR from the logo demos right on the 2012 Samsungs. One brand might be more resilient to IR over another but just know that IR is easily possible on any current plasma.
I've also heard people returning their Samsungs in favor of the Panasonics due to very loud buzzing, but guess what? The Panasonic's buzz too but just not as loud. So my point is these issues with plasma may very from one manufacturer to another based on tolerances. The experts right on this forum don't seem to have a problem with the Panasonic's as I know one of them owns a 2012 model and the Panny 65VT50 was rated best plasma. If you want Samsung then by all means go for it, they are very nice TV's but they are not immune to buzzing or IR.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HLdan View Post

Okay, let's make sure we're talking about the same thing. You mentioned Burn-In earlier and then I responded to that, now you're talking Image Retention. Where are you going with this? If you actually meant Image Retention then yes of course, I have a GT50 and I get IR at times if the letterbox is displayed too long but it goes away, but there is zero proof that the new 2012 Panasonic's have had any Burn-In. If you're classifying Burn-in being the same as Image Retention then that's inaccurate because they are not the same. Burn-in is permanent and Image Retention is not.

Guess those new Plasma tvs can't get any burn in so not to worry.
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Originally Posted by 6athome View Post

I have a LG LV 9500 LCD led 480 Hz nano local dimming! What amazed me is the low power consumption,at full power it is 98 watts! I don't know how good the newer plasma TV's are with power consumption,but they used to be barn burners.

Yes, the local dimming, combined with nano LED technology is probably the best available not in LCD panel TVs. And plasma TVs have improved, but doubtful not as low as 98 watts in the same or similar screen size.
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post #108 of 292 Old 07-08-2012, 10:23 AM
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Well, I posted earlier in response to some other posts but after seeing the CNET link you provided I do see that Samsung offers a better panel in regards to resisting IR. I still haven't seen any concrete evidence that the 2012 Panny's have any permanent burn-in. Alas I can't wait until OLED becomes the standard in the market. LCD and Plasma exude too many concerns for the average customer to keep up with.
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Guess those new Plasma tvs can't get any burn in so not to worry.

I should turn on my sarcasm radar.
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post #109 of 292 Old 07-08-2012, 12:11 PM
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Well as good as OLED is, it isn't immune to burn in. Hopefully they can improve on that though.
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post #110 of 292 Old 07-08-2012, 03:05 PM
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Originally Posted by biznus97 View Post

Well as good as OLED is, it isn't immune to burn in. Hopefully they can improve on that though.

LG must have fixed the problem......

http://www.digitaltrends.com/home-theater/ces-2012-lg-unveils-stunning-and-sleek-55-inch-oled-tv/
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post #111 of 292 Old 07-08-2012, 03:51 PM
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OK the:
OLED has no Buzzing.
OLED will have a shorter lifespan, but who keeps a TV that long anyways!
OLED will give a Wider Viewing Area. No Blooming, nor Ghosting.
OLED may have Burn In, or possible IR problems? Haven't seen anything in this regards yet. Wait and see at this point.
OLED will have many a man being divorced when wife finds out how much he paid for it!
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post #112 of 292 Old 07-08-2012, 04:51 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HLdan View Post

Well, I posted earlier in response to some other posts but after seeing the CNET link you provided I do see that Samsung offers a better panel in regards to resisting IR. I still haven't seen any concrete evidence that the 2012 Panny's have any permanent burn-in. Alas I can't wait until OLED becomes the standard in the market. LCD and Plasma exude too many concerns for the average customer to keep up with.
I should turn on my sarcasm radar.

I'm glad you saw the CNET report regarding IR from Panasonic and Samsung. My response was to the original question regarding LED vs Plasma. Bottom line concern for me for the plasma's is that Panny's seem to be more prone to IR and they buzz a bit, some worse than others. Sammy's are not as prone to IR but the seem to buzz a lot, also some worse than others. LED owners seem to complain a lot about ghosting and off center viewing. So basically Pick You Poison. They both have inherent problems but to me IR possibly leading to burn in is the most serious. I know that Panasonic radically changed their panels for 2012 and have to wonder if that's the reason why the 2012 model is having more IR problems than the 2010 and 2011 models. It's difficult to draw any conclusions when your only frame of reference is from a couple of forums like this and HDJ, as good as they are and they are very good and informative.
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post #113 of 292 Old 07-08-2012, 05:30 PM
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Originally Posted by p5browne View Post

OLED will have many a man being divorced when wife finds out how much he paid for it!

hee..........or acts of sabotage to current set to justify the new OLED.
or possibly staging a fake theft of TV to justify the new OLED.
and of course promising the wife "this is the last TV I will buy".

You have to wonder if LG will price it around 8K to compete with the Sharp Elite 60"?
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I'm a plasma fan & own a 50" Pioneer Kuro. I think upgrading from the ST to th GT50 Panny Plasma is a good choice. For me it's all about the blacks, & the GT/VT have more gradations from Black to white than the lower end models. Also, good as many TVs are today, you need to match what you buy to your room & viewing habits. As a gamer, or someone who enjoys sports or action movies, Plasma has the advantage, because of its 600hz refresh rate. Also has a wider viewing angle if not directly in front of the screen. LED wins in a bright room if you can't control the light. Plasmas just don't get as bright.
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post #115 of 292 Old 09-09-2012, 12:24 PM
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I just pulled the trigger and bought a new 65 inch HD 3D "smart" Internet capable tv. Which type and brand won't be revealed until the end. While I'm just as much a videophile and tech freak as anyone else posting here or anywhere (reaching back to pat self on back) even long ago having built my own TV, (A 27 inch Heathkit, you end up with a Zenith you in effect build yourself part by part with hundreds of pages of step by step instructions that set had a super picure for a CRT tv) I like everyone else got bit by the newer super sized "smart" tv offerings, especially from Samsung and almost twice in the past few weeks pulled the trigger on getting one. Did I? Keep reading.

Lets begin with a few things that are easy to fall victim too, we're only human. That will include envy (my neighbor just got one or my brother-in-law), its the latest thing, so it must be "better", and being conned by marketing hype which there's tons of in electronics along with reams of meaningless and near meaningless terms and last but not least common sense and some rave and no so rave reviews which of course you MUST take with a liberal shaking of salt... remember reviewers, those claiming to be "expert" even if using fancy lab test equipment are duh... only human too and that can and does color what they say. Me, I have several LCD/LDE tv's and monitors. I also have an almost 8 year old Panasonic 50 inch plasma...a near 200 pound beast which I'm replacing simply because its connectivity and features are a bit behind the times Still works fine and some charity yet undecided will get it shortly.

Of course for any major purchase avoid buying a pig in a poke, and not grab such and such make model off the web just because Joe Blow said it was a "good" pick. Alas, avoid being conned by seeing it in your local super electronics store and make a buying decision alone on what you're seeing in the store. MAJOR mistake either way. After all for most, you and your famility will being spending literally thousands of hours watching whatever make/model you pick so don't rush into a decision because of some "sale", pushy salesperson or what some real or imagined "expert" claims. Do your research watching tv and far as image quality is VERY subjective, depends what kind of shows/movies/live sports you watch, what room, dark, light, etc.. Here's what I found combined with what I already knew.

First the basics. Regardless of make/model the main differences between a plasma and the newer LCD/LED versions are: black and white levels, picture unformity, motion control, color reproduction and off angle viewing Also be aware some fancy features, especially what's on the newer Samsung in the way of voice control, facial control, hand jesters is at this stage of the game mostly a gimic you'll likely grow tired off and be frustrated with in none of them really work that well...yet.

Just a couple years ago LCD/LED for the most part ran circles around how black blacks could be and also how bright the picture was. No longer that big a deal many plasam models have nearly caught up. Yes, in a store, a big screen super thin LED tv displaying a blueray movie or some live sport might knock your socks off...on first impression. BUT, ask the salesman to switch to a broadcast channel and good odds your heart will sink. Depending on what you watch that super crisp picture now can look cartoonish, overly sharp around the edges, even on a properly calibrated set (rare if even in any store) unless you're looking at a HD 1080i signal say from HBO or maybe one of the newer reality shows shot in HD and also broadcast in HD, sorry the picture quality can suffer on a LED big time if braodcast in SD or even in 720p. To be fair this (in my opinion to a lessor degree, also impacts plasma sets.

Picture unformity in this context and there's been much discussion on it elsewhere in this forum simply means the image might appear brighter and both the left and right thirds of a LED picture. This varies greated make and model and even on the luck of the draw, which I'll explain later. This unformity issues mainly effects edge lit LED sets. Full array or backlit are better, but introduce other issues.

Motion control is how well your tv can handle fast motion. For LCD/LED sets this is mainly a factor of screen refresh, ie 120Hz, 240Hz. Faster is better... but watch out for marketing hype. The cold hard fact is plasma sets laugh off motion issues because the technology is different. If you watch lots of sports, if you want something close to no motion blur, plasama sets tend to do better. Compare side by side if you can before buying. While a LED might produce a slightly brighter image (once calibrated) most plasma sets are better a delivering less motion blur and for all practical purposes have none.

Both LED and plasma do a good job for the most part in reproducing true colors. Generally plasma have slight advantage. The big concern that many sadly don't even know exists I saved to last. Off angle viewing. Just to be clear what we're talking about. If you get a big screen LED place it at eye level and look at it staight on, the picture quality can and often will blow you away. Sadly if you move over a space or two on the sofa or much worse sit on a chair at an angle of as little as 15 degrees off center the picture quality quickly can and often does go into the toliet. Bumber. Worse, if you're like me and at times love to get on the floor and lay back to watch tv, the vertical angle will also kill the picture quality and totally defeat the purpose of buying a super HD LED tv. Plasma tv's simply don't have this problem, either vertical or off angle. To be perfectly honest you might see a slight deteroation, but nothing compared to LED sets.

For me the off angle issue common to all LED's was a deal breaker for me. If you live alone and won't ever fight who gets to sit on the soft looking square on at your new LED, never have guests over, and don't get on the floor and look up at your tv, then hey go for a LED or at least seriously look at them they are for sure brighter. Otherwise take a look at the plasma sets. Which did I get? Panasonic Viera TC-P65ST50. Don't have it yet, buy it's on it's way. -smile.gif

I'll end with my "luck of the draw" comment I made earlier explained. I simply mean quality overall set to set in the same make and model can vary A LOT. Why? Well lets revist what I said about building my own tv back in the 70's. I and a buddy seperately build sets. He used all the included resistors and capacitors... I didn't, I spent some extra time and cash getting some premium precession ones for a few key circuits and it made a difference.

Read any forum like this and it is common to see some say their set runs hot, makes a buzz, can't adjust the colors or brightness or dozens of other things, apparently wrong while others skake their head and wonder what they talking about because they see no such problems.

Typically resistors come in 10-20% tolerance range. Which means the value of any resistor can vary that much from it's stamped value. Combine just a few resistors in key circuits that are near their tolerance limit with some others that are also ... and oops. Oh the set will still work, but not as good as it was designed to. Now I don't know if or not any of the major brands use 5% or even premuim 1% tolerence resistors and equally superior quality capacitors in circuits where it matters, you don't know, but if not, might explain why a unlucky few seem to get a "lemon".
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post #116 of 292 Old 09-09-2012, 03:27 PM
 
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I just pulled the trigger and bought a new 65 inch HD 3D "smart" Internet capable tv. Which type and brand won't be revealed until the end.

. . . . . plasma sets laugh off motion issues because the technology is different. If you watch lots of sports, if you want something close to no motion blur, plasama sets tend to do better. Compare side by side if you can before buying. While a LED might produce a slightly brighter image (once calibrated) most plasma sets are better a delivering less motion blur and for all practical purposes have none.


. . . .Both LED and plasma do a good job for the most part in reproducing true colors.

. . . . .The big concern that many sadly don't even know exists I saved to last. Off angle viewing. Just to be clear what we're talking about. If you get a big screen LED place it at eye level and look at it staight on, the picture quality can and often will blow you away. Sadly if you move over a space or two on the sofa or much worse sit on a chair at an angle of as little as 15 degrees off center the picture quality quickly can and often does go into the toliet. Bumber. Worse, if you're like me and at times love to get on the floor and lay back to watch tv, the vertical angle will also kill the picture quality and totally defeat the purpose of buying a super HD LED tv. Plasma tv's simply don't have this problem, either vertical or off angle. To be perfectly honest you might see a slight deteroation, but nothing compared to LED sets.
For me the off angle issue common to all LED's was a deal breaker for me.

. . . . . .Which did I get? Panasonic Viera TC-P65ST50. Don't have it yet, buy it's on it's way. -smile.gif
I'll end with my "luck of the draw" comment I made earlier explained. I simply mean quality overall set to set in the same make and model can vary A LOT. Why? Well lets revist what I said about building my own tv back in the 70's. I and a buddy seperately build sets. He used all the included resistors and capacitors... I didn't, I spent some extra time and cash getting some premium precession ones for a few key circuits and it made a difference.
Read any forum like this and it is common to see some say their set runs hot, makes a buzz, can't adjust the colors or brightness or dozens of other things, apparently wrong while others skake their head and wonder what they talking about because they see no such problems.
Typically resistors come in 10-20% tolerance range. Which means the value of any resistor can vary that much from it's stamped value. Combine just a few resistors in key circuits that are near their tolerance limit with some others that are also ... and oops. Oh the set will still work, but not as good as it was designed to. Now I don't know if or not any of the major brands use 5% or even premuim 1% tolerence resistors and equally superior quality capacitors in circuits where it matters, you don't know, but if not, might explain why a unlucky few seem to get a "lemon".


Hmmm. . . interesting. 3 or 4 posts and we get a Panasonic commercial. wink.gif

Seriously, I generally agree with your points. "Heathkit". . . huh. We must be from the same "era". Anyway, as you indicate, there are short comings for both plasma and LED/LCD. And what is a deal breaker for one person may not be for another. I don't watch TV from the floor much anymore. . . . too hard to get up and we have plenty of seating. And I don't know it you've fairly viewed all of the LCD/LED TVs out there, but I have a 5 year old Mitsubishi with an S-PVA panel and you have to get much more than " a spot or two" off center to have any off angle issues. In fact, we have family over quite a bit and I have watched my TV many times up to 35 to 40 degrees off center with no apparent fading in picture quality.

And I do hope you do get the luck of the draw for your new TV. However, I also think you have ignored a few of the plasma TVs possible and real issues. Power consumption and heat is one. Especially on such a huge 65" panel. In winter it will help keep you warm, in summer. . . it may raise the AC bill. And there still are the known issues of picture noise, dithering, and not so great SD and standard DVD picture quality (especially on such a large 65" screen), glare from a glossy screen, and sometimes there are still other motion issues with plasma TV also. Many owners have noted this, particularly in the Panasonic ST/GT series if you've read those threads here on AVS. There are probably a few more things also, but you get the gist. None of what you mention is really "new" in making technology comparisons here on AVS. There are always tradeoffs, but the truth is, plasma or LCD TV picture quality is magnitudes better than that HeathKit- Zenith TV you assembled those many years ago.cool.gif

But enjoy your new TV. I am sure no matter what you will enjoy it as long as you get the luck of the draw and don't scrutinize too much. No TV is perfect even today with the digital technology. We would all hope so, but marketing and the bean counters are always at work. wink.gif
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post #117 of 292 Old 09-09-2012, 04:26 PM
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Hmmm. . . interesting. 3 or 4 posts and we get a Panasonic commercial. wink.gif
Seriously, I generally agree with your points. "Heathkit". . . huh. We must be from the same "era". Anyway, as you indicate, there are short comings for both plasma and LED/LCD. And what is a deal breaker for one person may not be for another. I don't watch TV from the floor much anymore. . . . too hard to get up and we have plenty of seating. And I don't know it you've fairly viewed all of the LCD/LED TVs out there, but I have a 5 year old Mitsubishi with an S-PVA panel and you have to get much more than " a spot or two" off center to have any off angle issues. In fact, we have family over quite a bit and I have watched my TV many times up to 35 to 40 degrees off center with no apparent fading in picture quality.
And I do hope you do get the luck of the draw for your new TV. However, I also think you have ignored a few of the plasma TVs possible and real issues. Power consumption and heat is one. Especially on such a huge 65" panel. In winter it will help keep you warm, in summer. . . it may raise the AC bill. And there still are the known issues of picture noise, dithering, and not so great SD and standard DVD picture quality (especially on such a large 65" screen), glare from a glossy screen, and sometimes there are still other motion issues with plasma TV also. Many owners have noted this, particularly in the Panasonic ST/GT series if you've read those threads here on AVS. There are probably a few more things also, but you get the gist. None of what you mention is really "new" in making technology comparisons here on AVS. There are always tradeoffs, but the truth is, plasma or LCD TV picture quality is magnitudes better than that HeathKit- Zenith TV you assembled those many years ago.cool.gif
But enjoy your new TV. I am sure no matter what you will enjoy it as long as you get the luck of the draw and don't scrutinize too much. No TV is perfect even today with the digital technology. We would all hope so, but marketing and the bean counters are always at work. wink.gif

A couple of points from some one that doesn't own a LCD or a plasma. The glare from a shinny screen is no longer a plasma only issue. Most of the new LED/LCD's have very reflective screens. Most LCD manufactures have incorporated this type of screen for added picture depth. Energy consumption and heat output have been dramatically reduced with the new plasmas. Should not even factor into the buying choice. Off axis viewing is a major problem noted in 90+% of professional reviews of LCD displays. Some are worse than others but the vast majority are pretty bad including Sharp's vaunted Elite model.
In an effort keep prices down, LCD manufactures have mostly gone away from the two best LED technology designs, Full Array and Full Array Local Dimming, in favor of a much less expensive design called Edge Lit. There remains only a couple of flagship models out there that are using Full Array Local Dimming. In Sharp's case they raised the price of their original 70" 3D model, the 70LE735 Full Array, to where it is selling for upwards of $1K more then the newer 70LE847 3D model which is Edge Lit. Guess why. Even though the new Panasonic VT50 series plasmas are widely considered the top dogs in overall PQ, if you go to the plasma threads here at AVS you will see many complaining about IR and Burn-In. Some will say it's not true but when you see folks sending their sets back because of it you have to be concerned. Bottom line. The average owner will be happy with either technology and most problems mentioned here will go un noticed by most. IR and Burn-in could be a different matter though. Pick your poison.
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post #118 of 292 Old 09-09-2012, 05:02 PM
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Have to ask, has anyone decided against getting a plasma because of the "pixel noise" (PWM)? It's hard to describe in words, but I think you know what I mean, that if you watch a plasma close up, you will see the whole image vibrate, in a way that kind of reminds of old analog signals. This is most clearly visible against bright backgrounds like a sky, a cloud or similar. if you only see it from like 2 decimeters it's OK, but I find that I see it even from a few meters also.
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A couple of points from some one that doesn't own a LCD or a plasma. The glare from a shinny screen is no longer a plasma only issue. Most of the new LED/LCD's have very reflective screens. Most LCD manufactures have incorporated this type of screen for added picture depth. Energy consumption and heat output have been dramatically reduced with the new plasmas. Should not even factor into the buying choice.

Energy consumption and heat are still factors for plasma. They still use 25% to 40% more power than comparable LED TVs. Go to the local BB and walk past the TVs. You will know you are in front of a plasma as soon as you walk by one and feel the "heat treatment" on your arms or face. Yes, many LCD/LED TVs have a glossy screen, but just as many have matte or semi-matte screens such as my LG42LD550 and even the lowly 26" Sanyo we have in the bedroom. (This TV , BTW, has very good color and black level qualities. . . better than LG, Samsung, and some other brands I tried out. Very uniform screen lighting too.)

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Off axis viewing is a major problem noted in 90+% of professional reviews of LCD displays. Some are worse than others but the vast majority are pretty bad including Sharp's vaunted Elite model.
In an effort keep prices down, LCD manufactures have mostly gone away from the two best LED technology designs, Full Array and Full Array Local Dimming, in favor of a much less expensive design called Edge Lit. There remains only a couple of flagship models out there that are using Full Array Local Dimming.

. . . .to where it is selling for upwards of $1K more then the newer 70LE847 3D model which is Edge Lit.

Yes, there are many edge lit LED TVs out there. But , actually, Samsung offers a bargain priced under $600 to $1K Full Array Direct Lit LED in the EH series this year in 40" to 65" sizes. No local dimming , but the EH5300 and EH6000 series have pretty decent black levels if properly adjusted and ambient light is kept reasonable for night time viewing. And, yes, I do know reviews comment about off axis viewing. I've owned and "auditioned" 9 LCD/LED TVs in my home in the last 2 years. Some of the newer ones are actually worse than my 2006 Mitsubishi LT-46231 with S-PVA panel, so a lot has to do with what type of panel a maker uses. My Mits is very good in off angle viewing and even at 50 to 60 degrees off angle picture quality is only minimally affected. Less than that and it is excellent.

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Guess why. Even though the new Panasonic VT50 series plasmas are widely considered the top dogs in overall PQ, if you go to the plasma threads here at AVS you will see many complaining about IR and Burn-In. Some will say it's not true but when you see folks sending their sets back because of it you have to be concerned. Bottom line. The average owner will be happy with either technology and most problems mentioned here will go un noticed by most. IR and Burn-in could be a different matter though. Pick your poison.

Yes, I have been a regular reader here on AVS since 2004 and am aware of continued IR and screen burn on the Panasonic plasmas. Some have kept peak white level as low as possible to try and control it, but then, how useful is a dim picture for day time viewing? But, as I also said and agree, most average owners will be happy with either. TV is magnitudes better than even 10 years ago.
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post #120 of 292 Old 09-09-2012, 05:31 PM
 
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Have to ask, has anyone decided against getting a plasma because of the "pixel noise" (PWM)? It's hard to describe in words, but I think you know what I mean, that if you watch a plasma close up, you will see the whole image vibrate, in a way that kind of reminds of old analog signals. This is most clearly visible against bright backgrounds like a sky, a cloud or similar. if you only see it from like 2 decimeters it's OK, but I find that I see it even from a few meters also.

Yes, if you read through some of the plasma TV threads here on AVS, the pixel noise has caused some to jump into an LED or try other plasma TVs in hopes of finding one that isn;t so bad. The issue you describe is often due to circuitry and firmware that alternates pixel firing to try and lessen image retention and screen burn especially when bright images are on the screen.
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