Let's take bets. How long until Apple offers a "Retina TV?" - AVS Forum
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Old 08-29-2012, 10:04 PM - Thread Starter
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Personally, I think all this crazy high resolution stuff -- Apple's retina in laptops, 4K tv's under 100" in size, etc. -- is ridiculous. In some cases, such as too high pixel density on a computer monitor, it is even detrimental. However, being that 4K is likely to become all the rage and with Apple's pushing of Retina, how long do you think it will be, if you think they will, until they release a Retina TV, touting either 4K or some other incredibly high and dense resolution.

I wager two years. What do you think?

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Old 08-29-2012, 10:14 PM
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First of all, why?

What sources are even capable of outputting 4K material that would suffice anyone into buying a 4K television in the first place?
Yes, it is a growing technology that will end up in the near future, but "near" is still a tad too far in an economical sense.

If anything with 4k, it just seems only wise to buy a projector since 4k would require a large screen dimension to actually
experience and appreciate the true glory of a 3840x2160 display.

That is my 2 cents.
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Old 08-29-2012, 10:41 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Do-It-Yourself View Post

First of all, why?
What sources are even capable of outputting 4K material that would suffice anyone into buying a 4K television in the first place?
Yes, it is a growing technology that will end up in the near future, but "near" is still a tad too far in an economical sense.
If anything with 4k, it just seems only wise to buy a projector since 4k would require a large screen dimension to actually
experience and appreciate the true glory of a 3840x2160 display.
That is my 2 cents.

These are my thoughts exactly. I have a 120" projector and at comfortable viewing distances around 12ft, I won't notice any increase in resolution by going to 4K. However, with Apple making a foray into the TV market, my guess is it's not too far off to see a 4K Apple-branded TV.

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Old 08-30-2012, 12:09 PM
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4ks only realistic market for the time being in computer monitors and pad displays.

that will be the only content short term.

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Old 08-30-2012, 01:43 PM
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There will be 4k TVs available from sony and LG before christmas. Panasonic has made 8K TVs. Making 4K TVs isn't like making oled TVs. They can use the same tech they use for plasma and LCD. Even without 4K content, there's upscaling. They can create 4K content from 1080 source.

If Apple thinks it's a good idea, they could have a 4K TV in 2013 made by an OEM.

My prediction is 4k will be like 3D. In a few years (maybe 3), almost all TVs will be 4K. The added cost will be so small that it'll be easier to just make everything 4K.
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Old 08-30-2012, 03:25 PM
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Originally Posted by KidHorn View Post

There will be 4k TVs available from sony and LG before christmas. Panasonic has made 8K TVs. Making 4K TVs isn't like making oled TVs. They can use the same tech they use for plasma and LCD. Even without 4K content, there's upscaling. They can create 4K content from 1080 source.
If Apple thinks it's a good idea, they could have a 4K TV in 2013 made by an OEM.
My prediction is 4k will be like 3D. In a few years (maybe 3), almost all TVs will be 4K. The added cost will be so small that it'll be easier to just make everything 4K.


You're suggesting in upscaling a 1920 × 1080 (2.1 MP) resolution into 4K (aprox 8+ MP) which is literally double in size both vertically and horizontally?
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Old 08-30-2012, 03:32 PM
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Originally Posted by Do-It-Yourself View Post

You're suggesting in upscaling a 1920 × 1080 (2.1 MP) resolution into 4K (aprox 8+ MP) which is literally double in size both vertically and horizontally?

Yes, I think he is.

I think the question is not when a display is available (the answer is: by the end of this year) but when a source will be available. Like a BR player capable of 4k output.
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Old 08-31-2012, 06:21 AM
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Originally Posted by Do-It-Yourself View Post

You're suggesting in upscaling a 1920 × 1080 (2.1 MP) resolution into 4K (aprox 8+ MP) which is literally double in size both vertically and horizontally?

It's no different than upscaling a 480 DVD to 1080 HD.

I'm not saying the upscaled image will look as good as a 4K source, but it will almost certainly look sharper than playing 1080 source at 1080.
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Old 09-02-2012, 02:45 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by weedeater View Post

Yes, I think he is.
I think the question is not when a display is available (the answer is: by the end of this year) but when a source will be available. Like a BR player capable of 4k output.

Not even BR players. We would need 4K content and it is very unlikely that 4K will fit on a Blu-Ray, even a special double or quad layer one. Let's enter the realm of movies on flash memory!

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Old 09-02-2012, 03:05 PM
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Sony BDP-S790 upscales to 4K. Movies in 4K with HEVC/H.265 codec compression will easily fit on a normal BD disc.
Apple will not release a 4K TV before there are some 4K content (almost non-existent at the moment), but they will possibly release a MAC monitor in 4K before that.
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Old 09-02-2012, 03:06 PM
 
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Originally Posted by Frosteh View Post

Not even BR players. We would need 4K content and it is very unlikely that 4K will fit on a Blu-Ray, even a special double or quad layer one. Let's enter the realm of movies on flash memory!
That's some costly movies (flash memory). eek.gif 64GB USB drives still demand a premium of at least $1/per GB (on the low end).

EDIT: It looks like that's old info...a quick jaunt over at Newegg revealed a 64GB stick for only $30 ($0.47/GB). We're getting there.
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Old 09-06-2012, 09:14 AM
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Originally Posted by KidHorn View Post

It's no different than upscaling a 480 DVD to 1080 HD.
I'm not saying the upscaled image will look as good as a 4K source, but it will almost certainly look sharper than playing 1080 source at 1080.

You're going to get a cleaner image running at native res rather than upscaling. 1080p will look better running on a 1080p display.
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Old 09-06-2012, 11:53 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Mastperf View Post

You're going to get a cleaner image running at native res rather than upscaling. 1080p will look better running on a 1080p display.

I very much disagree. Just look at JVC's eShift projectors (not figuratively, either. They have them at Magnolia AV). While 1080p upscaled to quad HD isn't true 4K, it still looks much sharper than the original 1080p, especially on a large screen.

Zombie10k posted some great shots of what eShift can do, especially when paired with a Darbee processor. It's not 4K, but Quad HD isn't far from it. While that's on a projector, I imagine the results will be similar on gigantic flat panels.

Darbee VP + JVC's e-shift - a close up look

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Old 09-07-2012, 08:57 AM
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There won't be any Apple TV any time soon. Apple has just said they will shelf the TV for now and use their resources to develop radio. "Back to the future"? tongue.gif
http://www.theatlanticwire.com/technology/2012/09/apple-wont-be-revolutionizing-tv-anytime-soon-if-cable-has-anything-say-about-it/56571/
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Old 09-07-2012, 10:20 AM
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Apple has never said (and won't say) anyithing one way or the other, everything is just informed speculation by observers.
But, yeah, it looks like we won't see an Apple TV revolution this year.
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Old 09-10-2012, 04:06 PM
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If it's a new Apple display, you can bet it will be computer related--which is a good thing. Those wanting those specs are usually computer users, not regular TV show & movie watchers.
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Old 09-10-2012, 04:40 PM
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nVidia Quatro K5000 GPU is just added to the Mac-Pro tower having 4K output. Next, 32" 4K monitor made by Sharp? No reason for a GPU with 4K output if a 4K monitor is just around the corner.
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Old 09-10-2012, 09:03 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by coolscan View Post

nVidia Quatro K5000 GPU is just added to the Mac-Pro tower having 4K output. Next, 32" 4K monitor made by Sharp? No reason for a GPU with 4K output if a 4K monitor is just around the corner.

I agree. As a graphic designer and fluids engineer, I'd love to have a tv sized monitor (~40") with 4K resolution. That would be incredibly useful for large scale work where I need to see a huge canvas without sacrificing resolution.

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Old 09-10-2012, 10:20 PM
 
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Originally Posted by Frosteh View Post

Not even BR players. We would need 4K content and it is very unlikely that 4K will fit on a Blu-Ray, even a special double or quad layer one. Let's enter the realm of movies on flash memory!

2160P will fit on a 50GB dual layer BD. Use H.265 for the video compression codec and spin the disc at either 2X or 3X speed. That will get the bit rate up. Andy Parsons, the President of the BDA has said that 4k will fit on a DL 50GB BD.
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Old 09-11-2012, 01:00 AM - Thread Starter
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2160P will fit on a 50GB dual layer BD. Use H.265 for the video compression codec and spin the disc at either 2X or 3X speed. That will get the bit rate up. Andy Parsons, the President of the BDA has said that 4k will fit on a DL 50GB BD.

Didn't know that. To my knowledge, H.265 is a bit off from becoming a finished codec. And good lord when it's done the new hardware capable of handling those bitrates is going to be unbelievably expensive. The other issue is getting the players capable of reading at 2x, 3x, or MOREx to get the required bitrate for 4K. Those are some pretty crazy numbers we're talking about, easily into the hundreds of megabits a second.

When it happens, though, it will be awesome.

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Old 09-11-2012, 01:04 AM
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Makes no sense for apple to go into the tv market without either 4k display and /or new content packages like the revolutionary re--packaging of the music And book industries Too many smart tvs out there with useless interfaces. With apple it has to be revolutionary or it's not worth pursuing

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Old 09-11-2012, 01:25 AM
 
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Originally Posted by Frosteh View Post

Didn't know that. To my knowledge, H.265 is a bit off from becoming a finished codec. And good lord when it's done the new hardware capable of handling those bitrates is going to be unbelievably expensive. The other issue is getting the players capable of reading at 2x, 3x, or MOREx to get the required bitrate for 4K. Those are some pretty crazy numbers we're talking about, easily into the hundreds of megabits a second.
When it happens, though, it will be awesome.

They already use 2X speed. That's how they do 3D BD. That's why older BD players couldn't be upgraded to 3D where the PS3 could. It always came with a 2X speed BD drive.
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Old 09-11-2012, 02:57 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Frosteh View Post

Didn't know that. To my knowledge, H.265 is a bit off from becoming a finished codec. And good lord when it's done the new hardware capable of handling those bitrates is going to be unbelievably expensive. The other issue is getting the players capable of reading at 2x, 3x, or MOREx to get the required bitrate for 4K. Those are some pretty crazy numbers we're talking about, easily into the hundreds of megabits a second.
When it happens, though, it will be awesome.

4K for HT media will be delivered at the same bitrate as 1080p BD with HEVC compression. No need for extra speed.

mhafner wrote this in his report from IBC; http://www.avsforum.com/t/1428844/ibc-2012
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- h.264 versus h.265: Several companies showed working h.265 implementations, showing split screen demos between the two, and 4K samples at various bit rates. h.265 is about twice as efficient as h.264. 4K at 20 Mbit/s looked very good. Mature implementations of this should have no problem to deliver videophile 4K at Blu Ray rates, at least in 8 bit 4:2:0. I hope we get 10 bit 4:2:2, though.

HEVC encoder systems announcements.
http://www.prnewswire.com/news-releases/world-first-live-hevc-broadcast-encoders-al1200al2200-168143876.html
http://ateme.com/HEVC-4KTV-UHDT-demonstration
http://broadcastengineering.com/mobile-tv/ericsson-introduces-svp-5500-hevc-encoder
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Old 09-11-2012, 03:03 PM
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Thread starter has misconceptions about human ability to perceive resolutions above 1080p. At least try - offer some info you have that shows us we can't see the difference under from x feet and under y inches.

Apple has a problem. They falsely advertised their displays. I mean, technically they haven't since they haven't explicitly said you won't benefit from higher resolution(s) at x distance. They were careful with wording and said that you won't be able to "see pixels". What that really means is that you won't be able to see the pixel grid. You'll always be able to see individual pixels if they are bright enough (minimum perceptible acuity, contrast ratio). Common misconception is that once you can't see the pixel grid - anything above that (resolution wise) makes no sense.

So I have no idea how are they going to go against their own marketing. This is the new "Retina display". Not only you can't see pixels (pixel grid) but you won't be able to perceive any higher resolution. This is the end of resolution. wink.gif
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Old 09-11-2012, 06:43 PM
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I can see it now we had threads for years in order to take advantage of 1920 x 1080 you need at least a 50 inchers so for 4k they will be campaigning 80 inchers or bigger.
If there is another disc medium then the player will probably cost north of 500.00 and the disc will be probably cost north of 50.00.
So no i don't think it will ever get off the ground.
Thanks to a poor economy and studios lack of software just look at 3D .
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