8K by 4K or Octo HD - the real SUHDTV technology - Page 13 - AVS Forum
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post #361 of 725 Old 01-19-2013, 05:29 AM
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Has Japan decided to start with 7680x4320 broadcast in 2016 instead of 2020 as planned early?
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post #362 of 725 Old 01-19-2013, 05:58 AM
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Interesting thread. I went through first couple of pages where we deliberate about when 8k or 16k displays players and media will become bread and butter

and I can't forget some 30-35 years ago in '70 when I was maybe 5-6 years old, technology enthusiasts were convinced that in 2000 we are going to be travelling in flying car or having colonies on Mars and beyond.

None of these happened simply because of economy that always priorities toward most efficient but still acceptable solutions that that can bring most profit to its sellers not consumers.

Same fate seems to be written for super high res technology which would have to become so cheap to become another marketing tool which would allow convincing average homeowner to switch to new 8k or 16k by the way when upgrading broken or old tv set.

I am not saying this is not going to happen but again't with modern economy it is less likely than more in next 10 years.

Japanese were always leaders in this but keep in mind how long it took for rest of western world to adapt 1080 hd after Japanese introduced it over 30 years ago.
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post #363 of 725 Old 01-19-2013, 10:23 AM
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Forgive this interruption with some dumbo questions:

If 4K broadcast is for basically impossible: How will people get 4K programming?

Will they have to buy super duper Blu-rays?

How long would it take to download a 2 hour 4K movie if it was not compressed?

And lastly the big question--how much will 4K and super resolutions higher than that actually cost?

How much cheaper would it be to download or buy a disc and play it at home versus wtching the movie in a theater?

Will all these problems be solved by 2020?

Will the internet basically have to be all fiber optic wired for this stuff to really work well?
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post #364 of 725 Old 01-19-2013, 10:50 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Artwood 
Forgive this interruption with some dumbo questions:

If 4K broadcast is for basically impossible: How will people get 4K programming?
First UltraHD demonstration channel on satellite in Europe
http://www.engadget.com/2013/01/14/first-ultra-hd-channel-goes-live-in-europe/

It will take years but eventually we will have UltraHD channels smile.gif
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post #365 of 725 Old 01-20-2013, 10:14 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 8mile13 View Post

First UltraHD demonstration channel on satellite in Europe
http://www.engadget.com/2013/01/14/first-ultra-hd-channel-goes-live-in-europe/

It will take years but eventually we will have UltraHD channels smile.gif
What are the limitations of satellite transmission in terms of speed; bandwidth?
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post #366 of 725 Old 01-20-2013, 11:15 AM
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What are the limitations of satellite transmission in terms of speed; bandwidth?
I'm not sure why you think they'd be significantly different than OTA requirements. I mean other than the fact they can pretty much do what they want. So they could provide high bandwidth per channel and give good quality to a few channels, or they can provide low bandwidth and give poor quality to a lot of channels. Most seem to prefer the latter. But they are not regulated in that regard, to the best of my knowledge, since they provide the decoding boxes, I also think they could use whatever codec they like. Cable companies are in the same situation.

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post #367 of 725 Old 01-20-2013, 03:12 PM
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I can see already some greedy cable companies trying to pull some customers into ultra hidef resolution programming sending indeed 8k signal to the user but with compression that makes some fast moving scenes pixelized like a chessboard. No thanks I will pass on that.
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post #368 of 725 Old 01-22-2013, 03:50 AM - Thread Starter
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No ESPN 4K.

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post #369 of 725 Old 01-22-2013, 05:51 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by irkuck View Post

No ESPN 4K.

Same argument NHK use for going straight for 8K.
Quote:
There might be a gradual evolution to 4K but we're not going to create a [dedicated] channel.

I don't want to make the capital investment because by the time we get to 4K we will be onto 8K or whatever.”
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post #370 of 725 Old 01-22-2013, 06:18 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Artwood View Post

Forgive this interruption with some dumbo questions:

If 4K broadcast is for basically impossible: How will people get 4K programming?
It isn't impossible.
European Satellite owners ASTRA have been testing 4K for a year already. EUTELSAT just opened their dedicated 4K sattelite channel January 8.
NHK have been testing 4K and 8K over fibre for years. Latest was their live transmissions of 8K from the Summer Olympics last year to several sites in the UK, Japan and US.
All this will be easier when the High-Efficiency- Video-Codec (HEVC) is finalised later this year.
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Will they have to buy super duper Blu-rays?
4K/UHD Blu-Rays with HEVC don't need to be Super-duper. They have sufficient bitrate,can keep the same size/volume and disc structure, use the same replication equipment.
They will need new players with a higher capacity video processor to process the 4K resolution.
Broadcom recently announced that they are starting up the processor chip manufacturing for HEVC/4K/UHD to launch this year and be mass-produced in 2014.
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How long would it take to download a 2 hour 4K movie if it was not compressed?
Only cinemas will get "uncompressed" 4K delivered on physical hard-discs or satellite fed. Consumer 4K/UHD content for distribution will be typical 20-25Mb/s bitrate with HEVC. Undistinguishable from "uncompressed" DCI for cinemas on screens up to 20 feet.
4K original material can be compressed much harder than 2K without loss of quality.
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And lastly the big question--how much will 4K and super resolutions higher than that actually cost?
Only one consumer film in 4K is yet sold; Timescapes natural documentary.
Wait for RedRay player with content distribution (downloade) from Odemax for price-levels.
Or possible Playstation 4 as a distribution server to fulfil Sony's promise at CES to have a 4K distribution system ready for the summer.
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How much cheaper would it be to download or buy a disc and play it at home versus wtching the movie in a theater?
For something that hasn't started yet. How can we know?
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Will all these problems be solved by 2020?
Long before, like in the next three years starting now.
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Will the internet basically have to be all fiber optic wired for this stuff to really work well?
Non-fiberoptics Internet doesn't work very well for anything other than reading.
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post #371 of 725 Old 01-22-2013, 09:23 AM
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Only cinemas will get "uncompressed" 4K delivered on physical hard-discs or satellite fed. Consumer 4K/UHD content for distribution will be typical 20-25Mb/s bitrate with HEVC. Undistinguishable from "uncompressed" DCI for cinemas on screens up to 20 feet.
4K original material can be compressed much harder than 2K without loss of quality.

uncompressed != losslessly compressed. I think you already know that, but some might be confused. smile.gif
I would be shocked to learn that anybody distributed uncompressed. It would be stupid. Camera to editing at the studio might be losslessly compressed distribution. I would think everyone else in the food chain would be lossy compression. Certainly you, HBO, etc. will receive something with lossy compression. Post houses and maybe theatres would likely receive something with low lossy compression, but maybe they might be able to receive losslessly compressed. Back of the envelope calcs indicate a 2 hr. 16x9 2k movie distributed 4:4:4 , 10 bits luma/10 chroma 24 fps would be about 1 Terabyte. Lossless compression might hit 3:1 depending on content, and I recall hearing theatres got movies at around 300G. Still, I think theatres get movies with lossy compression, just light on the compression.

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post #372 of 725 Old 01-22-2013, 11:36 PM - Thread Starter
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post #373 of 725 Old 01-28-2013, 11:14 PM
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Would 8K look good if you had a 200 inch screen?

How far could you sit from it?

How much do used drive-in screens run?
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post #374 of 725 Old 01-29-2013, 07:32 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Artwood View Post

Would 8K look good if you had a 200 inch screen?
How far could you sit from it?
How much do used drive-in screens run?

Try to understand that what counts is not absolute screen size but viewing distance in relation to the size, usually counted in picture height (PH).For standard TV scenario even for 4K one has to be at most 2.5 PH to see the difference wrt 2K. 8K would be too close to see the whole screen. That said, people claim 8K may offer additional perceptual stimulus in nonstandard viewing scenario e.g. like IMAX screen.

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post #375 of 725 Old 01-29-2013, 01:27 PM
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Does anyone in the world have an IMAX screen in their own house?

I wonder...what is the biggest screen in anyone's house in the whole world?

So is 4K going to be the standard for MANY years like NTSC was?
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post #376 of 725 Old 01-29-2013, 06:31 PM
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Originally Posted by Artwood View Post

Does anyone in the world have an IMAX screen in their own house?
You don't need an IMAX-sized image to sit one picture height away from the display - I do that today.
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So is 4K going to be the standard for MANY years like NTSC was?
No, that will probably be 8K.
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post #377 of 725 Old 01-29-2013, 07:20 PM
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Originally Posted by Artwood View Post

So is 4K going to be the standard for MANY years like NTSC was?
Possible, and there are limits to TV display size based on current technology. In my opinion 4K UHDTV will be the next major standard for the vast majority of the world and will remain the standard for a very long time. The costs associated with 4K recording have been going down and while it once was used only in major Hollywood movies the cost is now low enough that it can be used in high budget TV series.
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post #378 of 725 Old 01-30-2013, 12:03 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Richard Paul View Post

Possible, and there are limits to TV display size based on current technology. In my opinion 4K UHDTV will be the next major standard for the vast majority of the world and will remain the standard for a very long time. The costs associated with 4K recording have been going down and while it once was used only in major Hollywood movies the cost is now low enough that it can be used in high budget TV series.

With the 8K looming it is difficult to say what comes and how it shapes. Equally well to 4K there is no reason why the cost of 8K hardware will not go down fast. Since the broadcast standards will cover both 8/4K there will be natural drive to get into the high end. Wild card here is China where the global market center is shifting. If they adopt 8K it will be unstoppable.

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post #379 of 725 Old 01-30-2013, 05:40 AM
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I honestly don't see the need for 8K. If we're bickering over whether we'll see much of a difference going from 2K to 4K, what is to be gained going from 4K to 8K? We have reached the point of diminishing returns.

I'm not even going to get in to the discussion of 8K content (one can argue there IS considerable 4K content ready today). Who is shooting in 8K today? What movies have been mastered in 8K? How will this material be disseminated and with what compression?
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post #380 of 725 Old 01-30-2013, 07:40 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard Paul 
Possible, and there are limits to TV display size based on current technology. In my opinion 4K UHDTV will be the next major standard for the vast majority of the world and will remain the standard for a very long time. The costs associated with 4K recording have been going down and while it once was used only in major Hollywood movies the cost is now low enough that it can be used in high budget TV series.
+1 4K will be the next major standard for the vast majority of the world and will remain the standard for a very long time.
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post #381 of 725 Old 01-30-2013, 08:29 AM
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Originally Posted by 8mile13 View Post

+1 4K will be the next major standard for the vast majority of the world and will remain the standard for a very long time.
Not if you listen to the arguments from NHK or BBC or EBU or for that matter a channel like ESPN.

Bryan Burns, VP of strategic business planning and development at ESPN said;

“By the time we get [to 4K] we will be on to 8K or whatever. I don’t want to make the capital investment [in 4K]. There might be a gradual evolution…but I don’t see us heading to 4K production or an ESPN 4K channel.”

All the arguments are that it is more economical to go straight for 8K as an alternative to first upgrade equipment for 4K and then later upgrade again for 8K.

Burns heads the content subcommittee of CEA’s Ultra HD Working Group.
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post #382 of 725 Old 01-30-2013, 09:22 AM
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Originally Posted by coolscan 

Not if you listen to the arguments from NHK or BBC or EBU or for that matter a channel like ESPN.

Bryan Burns, VP of strategic business planning and development at ESPN said;

“By the time we get [to 4K] we will be on to 8K or whatever. I don’t want to make the capital investment [in 4K]. There might be a gradual evolution…but I don’t see us heading to 4K production or an ESPN 4K channel.”

All the arguments are that it is more economical to go straight for 8K as an alternative to first upgrade equipment for 4K and then later upgrade again for 8K.

Burns heads the content subcommittee of CEA’s Ultra HD Working Group.

Th HEVC stuff will get us 4K blu-ray and 4K broadcast. HEVC is the main reason why there will be 4K blu-ray and 4K broadcast at some point.
. what coding will get us 8K blu-ray and 8K broadcast?
. for most people going from 4K to 8K makes no sence.
.
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post #383 of 725 Old 01-30-2013, 01:17 PM
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Originally Posted by coolscan View Post

Not if you listen to the arguments from NHK or BBC or EBU or for that matter a channel like ESPN.

Bryan Burns, VP of strategic business planning and development at ESPN said;

“By the time we get [to 4K] we will be on to 8K or whatever. I don’t want to make the capital investment [in 4K]. There might be a gradual evolution…but I don’t see us heading to 4K production or an ESPN 4K channel.”

All the arguments are that it is more economical to go straight for 8K as an alternative to first upgrade equipment for 4K and then later upgrade again for 8K.

Burns heads the content subcommittee of CEA’s Ultra HD Working Group.

ESPN is very profitable and will continue to feed people crappy 720p unless competition forces an upgrade. His comments are driven by $ only.
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post #384 of 725 Old 01-30-2013, 01:51 PM
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ESPN is very profitable and will continue to feed people crappy 720p unless competition forces an upgrade. His comments are driven by $ only.

Absolutely Dave. When I read that several days ago, that's exactly what I was thinking. His motivation was not enhancing quality.
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post #385 of 725 Old 01-30-2013, 02:02 PM
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Is there a danger in quality getting so good that NO ONE goes to the games?

Can sports make if if no one is at the scene REALLY watching?

They try to hide the empty seats at bowl games but it makes you ask yourself--if those seats are empty is this game really worth watching?
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post #386 of 725 Old 01-30-2013, 02:11 PM
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People will always go to games and always go to the movies. Why? Because regardless of how good the picture is at home, there's the social aspect of 'going out', and if we're objective, there's still nothing like 'being there' at a sporting event.
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post #387 of 725 Old 01-30-2013, 03:51 PM
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Originally Posted by 8mile13 View Post

Th HEVC stuff will get us 4K blu-ray and 4K broadcast. HEVC is the main reason why there will be 4K blu-ray and 4K broadcast at some point.
. what coding will get us 8K blu-ray and 8K broadcast?
HEVC will get you 8K too down the line.
UHD-1=4K
UHD-2=8K
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. for most people going from 4K to 8K makes no sence.
.
Most people will not have switched to 4K before 8K is offered them.
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Originally Posted by dsinger View Post

ESPN is very profitable and will continue to feed people crappy 720p unless competition forces an upgrade. His comments are driven by $ only.
I have no familiarity with ESPN.
The reason they where used as an example is because they declared early last year that they prepare for 4K and now changed their decision.
And because they use the same argument that the initiative behind 8K broadcast, NHK, BBC and EBU use; That it is more sensible to go straight to 8K for broadcast than going via a 4K upgrade of equipment first.
Has nothing particularly to do with ESPN, just an illustration.
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post #388 of 725 Old 01-30-2013, 08:50 PM
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Originally Posted by coolscan View Post

Not if you listen to the arguments from NHK or BBC or EBU or for that matter a channel like ESPN.
Only the NHK is planning 8K production.

Quote:
Originally Posted by coolscan View Post

All the arguments are that it is more economical to go straight for 8K as an alternative to first upgrade equipment for 4K and then later upgrade again for 8K.
The only content organization I know of that has said that is the NHK and we will see if they stick with that. Going straight from 1080p24 to 4320p120 is a huge leap and they are also promoting 22.2 channel audio.
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post #389 of 725 Old 01-30-2013, 11:00 PM
 
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22.2 audio, lol. They exude excess and it would seem they cater to the elite of the elites.
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post #390 of 725 Old 01-31-2013, 12:12 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dsinger View Post

ESPN is very profitable and will continue to feed people crappy 720p unless competition forces an upgrade. His comments are driven by $ only.

For the record, 720p is not crappy per se, the bit budget used might be. It has been shown crystal clear that, provided sufficient bits, 720p/60 is better for fast moving (sports) events, only 1080p/60 could beat it.
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Only the NHK is planning 8K production.
The only content organization I know of that has said that is the NHK and we will see if they stick with that. Going straight from 1080p24 to 4320p120 is a huge leap and they are also promoting 22.2 channel audio.

NHK is planning full broadcast chain. This is well-thought comprehensive strategy which makes it distinct from the current 4K chaos. There is no doubt 8K will be adpoted and in the end widespread in Japan. Will it become global depends on the future stratego of China. On one hand they have strong drive to become best and biggest, on the other hand adpotion of standard is also political decision and they have some rocky (pun intended:) issues with Japan and may be inclined to say no to 8K.

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