8K by 4K or Octo HD - the real SUHDTV technology - Page 2 - AVS Forum
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post #31 of 676 Old 09-11-2012, 01:08 PM
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Local broadcast TV stations are still in the process of upgrading to 1080p. Once they have all upgraded, they will want their 1080p investment to pay off over a period of time before they upgrade again. This may be 5-15 years in the future. After that period of time, they will evaluate their next upgrade. I hope that 8k is ready by then to take over as a universal standard. It truely is the holy grail. From what I've seen 4k, it looks impressive. I would rather have 8k as a universal standard and be done with it. No further need to upgrade until hologram TV.
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post #32 of 676 Old 09-11-2012, 08:26 PM
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Originally Posted by Lee Stewart View Post

Sharp has already shown an 85" Super Hi-Vision display:
http://www.engadget.com/2012/01/11/sharp-8k-super-hi-vision-lcd-4k-tv-and-freestyle-wireless-lcd-h/
That was just a prototype display and no CE company has yet to announce a consumer 8K TV.

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Local broadcast TV stations are still in the process of upgrading to 1080p. Once they have all upgraded, they will want their 1080p investment to pay off over a period of time before they upgrade again. This may be 5-15 years in the future.
1080p is cheap enough that a lot of broadcasters are buying equipment capable of it but that isn't the reason UHDTV is years away. It is because changing an OTA broadcast standard is very difficult and in the United States it has only been done twice (color NTSC and ATSC).

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After that period of time, they will evaluate their next upgrade. I hope that 8k is ready by then to take over as a universal standard. It truely is the holy grail. From what I've seen 4k, it looks impressive. I would rather have 8k as a universal standard and be done with it. No further need to upgrade until hologram TV.
Well for the majority of people 4K UHDTV makes a lot more sense than 8K UHDTV. That is until 8K UHDTVs larger than 120" become common in homes. The NHK is a government entity so cost concerns are less of an issue in their desire to push 8K UHDTV. Most of the OTA broadcasters in the world though will consider cost much more carefully and based on everything I have read I think most of them will go with 4K UHDTV.
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post #33 of 676 Old 09-11-2012, 08:30 PM
 
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Originally Posted by Richard Paul View Post

That was just a prototype display and no CE company has yet to announce a consumer 8K TV.

Of course - ALL 8K equipment is considered prototypes or proof of concept equipment.
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post #34 of 676 Old 09-11-2012, 08:43 PM
 
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Who says that OTA will even get involved in 4K broadcasts? They currently don't broadcast 3D - but all other content delivery systems do.

I just don't see the masses upgrading to 4K TVs. And OTA is for the masses. Always has been, always will be. Plus it is estimated that only 20% of the USA households depend on OTA for their TV content. The other 80% have Pay TV.

As far as changing OTA broadcast standards, it ltierally took 10 years for HDTV broadcasts to start after serious discussion was started about upgrading the NTSC standard. The only way IMO 4K OTA broadcasts could be made in a shorter timeframe would be if they fit into the current ATSC specs so no new OTA broadcast standard would be necessary.
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post #35 of 676 Old 09-11-2012, 09:53 PM
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Originally Posted by Lee Stewart View Post

Who says that OTA will even get involved in 4K broadcasts? They currently don't broadcast 3D - but all other content delivery systems do.
I just don't see the masses upgrading to 4K TVs. And OTA is for the masses. Always has been, always will be. Plus it is estimated that only 20% of the USA households depend on OTA for their TV content. The other 80% have Pay TV.
Well 4K UHDTV will deliver higher resolution, higher frame rates, improved color space, and higher bit depth. I know that 4K UHDTV adoption will take a while but I would point out that it took 12 years for HDTV to make it into half of US homes.

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As far as changing OTA broadcast standards, it ltierally took 10 years for HDTV broadcasts to start after serious discussion was started about upgrading the NTSC standard. The only way IMO 4K OTA broadcasts could be made in a shorter timeframe would be if they fit into the current ATSC specs so no new OTA broadcast standard would be necessary.
There have already been ATSC 3.0 discussions about newer modulation systems, HEVC, and 4K. Here is a link to a document about ATSC 3.0 that was made by the National Association of Broadcasters. The planning team report for ATSC 3.0 was finished last year and since than the TG3 has been having regular meetings.
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post #36 of 676 Old 09-11-2012, 10:54 PM
 
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Originally Posted by Richard Paul View Post

Well 4K UHDTV will deliver higher resolution, higher frame rates, improved color space, and higher bit depth. I know that 4K UHDTV adoption will take a while but I would point out that it took 12 years for HDTV to make it into half of US homes.

Higher resolution and frame rates I can believe. Better than 8 bit color space and better than 4:2:0 Chroma Subsampling - when I see it I will believe it. Still waiting for the promised Deep Color for HD.
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There have already been ATSC 3.0 discussions about newer modulation systems, HEVC, and 4K. Here is a link to a document about ATSC 3.0 that was made by the National Association of Broadcasters. The planning team report for ATSC 3.0 was finished last year and since than the TG3 has been having regular meetings.

"Time frame for ATSC 3.0 . . . unknown"
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post #37 of 676 Old 09-12-2012, 05:54 AM
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The last big change in broadcast was to switch from analog to digital. Supporting 4k or 8K won't be nearly as involved. It's not a completely new standard that will make everything obsolete, it's just an improvement in resolution. I don't see it as being much different than how some broadcast in 720 and some in 1080.
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post #38 of 676 Old 09-12-2012, 06:30 AM
 
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Originally Posted by KidHorn View Post

The last big change in broadcast was to switch from analog to digital. Supporting 4k or 8K won't be nearly as involved. It's not a completely new standard that will make everything obsolete, it's just an improvement in resolution. I don't see it as being much different than how some broadcast in 720 and some in 1080.

When the switch from analog to digital was made, the government subsidized converter boxes so those with an analog tuner could receive digital broadcasts.

From a consumer standpoint, the switch to 4k and 8k means all new hardware for consumers. They just did this for HDTV. You think they will do it again for first 4K then shortly afterwards 8K? I think not.
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post #39 of 676 Old 09-12-2012, 09:05 AM
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Originally Posted by Lee Stewart View Post

When the switch from analog to digital was made, the government subsidized converter boxes so those with an analog tuner could receive digital broadcasts.
From a consumer standpoint, the switch to 4k and 8k means all new hardware for consumers. They just did this for HDTV. You think they will do it again for first 4K then shortly afterwards 8K? I think not.

People are willing to spend more money to get higher technology if there isn't some hidden cost. That is how we got to this place with 1080i/720p/1080p.
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post #40 of 676 Old 09-12-2012, 10:23 AM
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Originally Posted by Lee Stewart View Post

When the switch from analog to digital was made, the government subsidized converter boxes so those with an analog tuner could receive digital broadcasts.
From a consumer standpoint, the switch to 4k and 8k means all new hardware for consumers. They just did this for HDTV. You think they will do it again for first 4K then shortly afterwards 8K? I think not.

You're comparing apples to oranges. Switching from analog to digital required new tuners because the old analog tuners couldn't process a digitial signal. But in this case all that's happening is the mpeg is in a higher resolution.

You may not be aware of this, but all digital TVs convert all resolutions of mpeg to their native format before displaying. If you have a TV with a 1080p native resolution, you can play a 720p or 480i broadcast just fine. The TV always converts it to 1080p. You don't have to buy a new TV to watch ABC in 720p. Do you think all those people who had a 768 TV couldn't watch a 1080i broadcast?
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post #41 of 676 Old 09-12-2012, 10:33 AM
 
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Originally Posted by Tazishere View Post

People are willing to spend more money to get higher technology if there isn't some hidden cost. That is how we got to this place with 1080i/720p/1080p.

Not as I see it. It started with the Grand Alliance and culminated in the ATSC broadcast standard.
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post #42 of 676 Old 09-12-2012, 10:38 AM
 
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You're comparing apples to oranges. Switching from analog to digital required new tuners because the old analog tuners couldn't process a digitial signal. But in this case all that's happening is the mpeg is in a higher resolution.

So no change to the color depth - no change to the Chroma Subsampling - just an increase in the resolution?
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You may not be aware of this, but all digital TVs convert all resolutions of mpeg to their native format before displaying. If you have a TV with a 1080p native resolution, you can play a 720p or 480i broadcast just fine. The TV always converts it to 1080p. You don't have to buy a new TV to watch ABC in 720p. Do you think all those people who had a 768 TV couldn't watch a 1080i broadcast?

I am full aware of what you are talking about. But that doesn't address what I said - consumers will resist making another upgrade to their television so quickly after the last one they made. There is a whole HUGE market outside of AVS who doesn't see things the way that we do.

Can you feed a 4K signal to an HDTV? We already know you can feed an HD signal to a 4K TV.
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post #43 of 676 Old 09-12-2012, 01:12 PM
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Originally Posted by KidHorn 
The last big change in broadcast was to switch from analog to digital. Supporting 4k or 8K won't be nearly as involved. It's not a completely new standard that will make everything obsolete, it's just an improvement in resolution. I don't see it as being much different than how some broadcast in 720 and some in 1080.

According to Hometheater ''with billions of dollars having already been invested by broadcasters, manufacturers, and consumers on currently available HDTV technology, any widespread implementation of 8K resolution TVs and Super Hi-Vision TV broadcasting is still almost a decade away as current broadcasting and video format infrastructure cannot handle the extended bandwith requirements ( unless new breakthroughs in compression technology would be able to adress this) ''.

http://hometheater.about.com/od/hometheaterglossary/g/8k-Resolution-Definition-And-Explanation.html

^^ the 8K switch is a big deal!
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post #44 of 676 Old 09-12-2012, 07:25 PM
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Originally Posted by Lee Stewart View Post

Higher resolution and frame rates I can believe. Better than 8 bit color space and better than 4:2:0 Chroma Subsampling - when I see it I will believe it. Still waiting for the promised Deep Color for HD.
There is a good reason for why 10-bit video has yet to happen. It would have required new MPEG-4 AVC Hi10P video decoders, a large increase in the maximum bitrate of the decoders to support the Hi10P profile (which was not designed with consumers in mind), and it would have been a benefit only to the HDTVs that could display 10-bit video. The UHDTV standard uses 10-bit/12-bit video and supports up to 4:4:4 chroma subsampling. I think that UHDTV will be taken into consideration when they make the various profiles for HEVC in the future.

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"Time frame for ATSC 3.0 . . . unknown"
There is currently no fixed date for ATSC 3.0 but from what I have read I think that ATSC 3.0 will be finalized in 4 to 8 years.

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When the switch from analog to digital was made, the government subsidized converter boxes so those with an analog tuner could receive digital broadcasts.
From a consumer standpoint, the switch to 4k and 8k means all new hardware for consumers. They just did this for HDTV. You think they will do it again for first 4K then shortly afterwards 8K? I think not.
ATSC is the oldest of the digital HDTV standards and the use of MPEG-2 is becoming less common with time (for example much of Europe and South America have started OTA broadcasting with MPEG-4 AVC). As such even OTA broadcast standards are changing more quickly in the digital age and going from MPEG-2 to HEVC would be a very large jump.
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post #45 of 676 Old 09-13-2012, 02:17 AM - Thread Starter
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Irkuck continues to confound me by starting new threads that he is totally cynical of.
As a pro-4k guy, I have to say 8k is an overkill, simply because of the size and viewing distance required which is likely to be beyond the normal city dwellings.

Heh, as you see I am flexible and now we have changed roles. In my previous incarnation I've been saying 4K is stupid but you did not want to listen. So now I am saying let's move to the 8K just end those stupid discussions about resolution once and for all smile.gif. 8K is an overkill good to kill the resolution issue.

On more serious note, the 8K might be needed for scenarios extending beyond the TV, e.g. using kind of surrounding displays. Actually there are already gamers who are surrounded by no less than 6 2K monitors. In quite near future you may see guys sitting at their desktops and surrounded by 3 4K monitors. These are 12K computer monitor scenarios. One can imagine then the 8K TV scenarios with flexible displays.
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post #46 of 676 Old 09-13-2012, 03:20 AM
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Heh, as you see I am flexible and now we have changed roles. In my previous incarnation I've been saying 4K is stupid but you did not want to listen. So now I am saying let's move to the 8K just end those stupid discussions about resolution once and for all smile.gif. 8K is an overkill good to kill the resolution issue.
On more serious note, the 8K might be needed for scenarios extending beyond the TV, e.g. using kind of surrounding displays. Actually there are already gamers who are surrounded by no less than 6 2K monitors. In quite near future you may see guys sitting at their desktops and surrounded by 3 4K monitors. These are 12K computer monitor scenarios. One can imagine then the 8K TV scenarios with flexible displays.

I've always maintained in the 4k thread that 4k make sense and 8k doesn't for HT. I think nobody's listening to you now neither that 4k is stupid smile.gif Difference between you and me is that I read across while you're just looking at Sony's literature. Sony don't dictate anything nowadays. The proof of the pudding for 4k is coming. Huge size TV will be coming mainstream. OLED is coming. I hope you have multiple incarnations smile.gif

But I doubt I'll be able to discuss 8k home theatre with you as much as I'll be able to discuss the flying car
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post #47 of 676 Old 09-13-2012, 04:20 AM
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To add an important part to this discussions of future UHDTV broadcasts.
In addition to the work done on the Capture, Compression, Transmission and Display side.

In April 2012 during National Association of Broadcasters (NAB) expo the Future of Broadcast Television (FOBTV) Initiative was officially formed.

The important part of the Initiative:
*Recommending major technologies to be used as the basis for new standards, and
*Requesting standardization of selected technologies (layers) by appropriate standards development organizations.

In short; They want to "do away with" PAL, NTSC and SECAM and agree on a Global TV signal standard to simplify equipment types and ease the exchange of TV programs globally.
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Founding FOBTV members comprise the Management Committee:

*Advanced Television Systems Committee (ATSC)
*Canadian Broadcast Corporation (CBC)
*Communications Research Centre Canada (CRC)
*Digital Video Broadcasting Project (DVB)
*European Broadcasting Union (EBU)
*Electronics and Telecommunications Research Institute (ETRI)
*Globo TV-Brazil
*IEEE Broadcast Technology Society (IEEE-BTS)
*National Association of Broadcasters (NAB)
*National Engineering Research Center of Digital TV of China (NERC-DTV)
*NHK Science and Technology Research Laboratories (NHK)
*Public Broadcasting Service (PBS)
*Brazilian Society of Television Engineers (SET)

*The first Chairman of the newly formed FoBTV Technical Committee is;
Dr. Wenjun Zhang, Chief Scientist, NERC-DTV.

*Three Vice Chairs were named:
Dr. Yiyan Wu, CRC’s Principal Research Scientist,
Dr. Toru Kuroda, Director of NHK’s Planning and Coordination Division
Dr. Namho Hur, General Director, Department of Broadcasting System Research at ETRI.

Together, they will lead the FoBTV Technical Committee's solicitation and evaluation of technical proposals and recommendation of major technologies to be used as the basis for new standards.
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post #48 of 676 Old 09-13-2012, 04:51 AM
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Originally Posted by 8mile13 View Post

According to Hometheater ''with billions of dollars having already been invested by broadcasters, manufacturers, and consumers on currently available HDTV technology, any widespread implementation of 8K resolution TVs and Super Hi-Vision TV broadcasting is still almost a decade away as current broadcasting and video format infrastructure cannot handle the extended bandwith requirements ( unless new breakthroughs in compression technology would be able to adress this) ''.
http://hometheater.about.com/od/hometheaterglossary/g/8k-Resolution-Definition-And-Explanation.html
^^ the 8K switch is a big deal!

I'm not disagreeing with this. What I'm saying is consumers being forced to buy new set top boxes to get over the air signals isn't what's going to stop 4K or 8K TV. It's not going to be a big issue and I don't think it will be required for many who still want to use their 1080 TVs. The internal tuners will likely be backwards compatible with the new broadcasts.
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post #49 of 676 Old 09-13-2012, 04:57 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by coolscan View Post

To add an important part to this discussions of future UHDTV broadcasts.
In addition to the work done on the Capture, Compression, Transmission and Display side.
In April 2012 during National Association of Broadcasters (NAB) expo the Future of Broadcast Television (FOBTV) Initiative was officially formed.
The important part of the Initiative:
*Recommending major technologies to be used as the basis for new standards, and
*Requesting standardization of selected technologies (layers) by appropriate standards development organizations.
In short; They want to "do away with" PAL, NTSC and SECAM and agree on a Global TV signal standard to simplify equipment types and ease the exchange of TV programs globally.

It looks like yet another stuff, this time a global one, imposed on masses by techies. Can we, consumer end-users tell them what we want, and they will do it for us and not vice versa?

Now time is coming for an ultimate standard, once and for all: Octo HD, 120Hz, 10-bit, transparent compression. No excuse for techies it is impossible to do. Get it done asap smile.gif.

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post #50 of 676 Old 09-13-2012, 07:33 AM
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Originally Posted by irkuck View Post

It looks like yet another stuff, this time a global one, imposed on masses by techies. Can we, consumer end-users tell them what we want, and they will do it for us and not vice versa?
Now time is coming for an ultimate standard, once and for all: Octo HD, 120Hz, 10-bit, transparent compression. No excuse for techies it is impossible to do. Get it done asap smile.gif.

I think this is one of the wiser initiatives taken by the broadcasters. This will ensure that when UHDTV 8K broadcasts eventually starts, it will be the same broadcast system all over the world. No more differences in equipment standards or need for transcoding of material between broadcast standards zones.
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post #51 of 676 Old 09-13-2012, 08:17 AM
 
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Originally Posted by coolscan View Post

I think this is one of the wiser initiatives taken by the broadcasters. This will ensure that when UHDTV 8K broadcasts eventually starts, it will be the same broadcast system all over the world. No more differences in equipment standards or need for transcoding of material between broadcast standards zones.

So Japan gets to pick the television standard for the entire world?
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post #52 of 676 Old 09-13-2012, 10:36 AM
 
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There is a good reason for why 10-bit video has yet to happen. It would have required new MPEG-4 AVC Hi10P video decoders, a large increase in the maximum bitrate of the decoders to support the Hi10P profile (which was not designed with consumers in mind), and it would have been a benefit only to the HDTVs that could display 10-bit video. The UHDTV standard uses 10-bit/12-bit video and supports up to 4:4:4 chroma subsampling. I think that UHDTV will be taken into consideration when they make the various profiles for HEVC in the future.

What about improvements to the dynamic range - more in line with DCI or film?
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post #53 of 676 Old 09-13-2012, 11:00 AM
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Originally Posted by Lee Stewart View Post

So Japan gets to pick the television standard for the entire world?

If that should be the case biggrin.gif , my bet would be China rather than Japan.

The initiative was Chinese, the first meetings was in Shanghai, the first Chairman of the newly formed FoBTV Technical Committee is Chinese; Dr. Wenjun Zhang, Chief Scientist, NERC-DTV in Shanghai.

The vice chairs are one Chinese working for Canadian company (CRC), one Japanese(NHK) and one Korean(ETRI). smile.gif
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post #54 of 676 Old 09-13-2012, 11:11 AM
 
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Originally Posted by coolscan View Post

If that should be the case biggrin.gif , my bet would be China rather than Japan.
The initiative was Chinese, the first meetings was in Shanghai, the first Chairman of the newly formed FoBTV Technical Committee is Chinese; Dr. Wenjun Zhang, Chief Scientist, NERC-DTV in Shanghai.
The vice chairs are one Chinese working for Canadian company (CRC), one Japanese(NHK) and one Korean(ETRI). smile.gif

They couldn't even standardize on the Metric Sytem.
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post #55 of 676 Old 09-13-2012, 12:07 PM - Thread Starter
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So Japan gets to pick the television standard for the entire world?

Not necessarily but Japan has long history in introducing their own HDTV systems which were running only there. China is black horse in this race, they may also press for or introduce their own OctoHD. Things may be happening quicker then one may think.

BTW there is also a way for resolving the 8K/4K issue by introducing hierarchical broadcasting and compression standard. There would be then compatibility between the both, one could start with the 4K and the 8K would be downward compatible extension of it.

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post #56 of 676 Old 09-13-2012, 12:16 PM
 
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Originally Posted by irkuck View Post

Not necessarily but Japan has long history in introducing their own HDTV systems which were running only there. China is black horse in this race, they may also press for or introduce their own OctoHD. Things may be happening quicker then one may think.

Who else beside NHK has shown a fully working 8K television system?
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BTW there is also a way for resolving the 8K/4K issue by introducing hierarchical broadcasting and compression standard. There would be then compatibility between the both, one could start with the 4K and the 8K would be downward compatible extension of it.

And that would also be downward compatible to HD and also SD?
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post #57 of 676 Old 09-13-2012, 07:44 PM
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So Japan gets to pick the television standard for the entire world?
The NHK was the main force behind UHDTV but from what I have read there was a good deal of input from other broadcasters which explains why UHDTV comes in both 4K and 8K levels.

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What about improvements to the dynamic range - more in line with DCI or film?
Here is a link to a post I made about UHDTV.
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post #58 of 676 Old 09-14-2012, 01:08 AM - Thread Starter
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Who else beside NHK has shown a fully working 8K television system?

Nobody. But note that the Chinese NERC-DTV was only established in 2010, their ambitions are on galactic scale and they move with the speed of light.
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And that would also be downward compatible to HD and also SD?

Technically all kind of such wizardry is possible but I would not bet on it. There are strong indications the UHDTV will be an 8K/4K hierarchical system.

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post #59 of 676 Old 09-14-2012, 01:45 AM
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The Future of Broadcast Television (FOBTV) Initiative has really nothing directly to do with UHDTV development or such, but is going to figure out a new global terrestrial transmission standard.
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post #60 of 676 Old 09-14-2012, 04:59 AM
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The Future of Broadcast Television (FOBTV) a global terrestrial transmission standard.
just because they come to a agreement does not mean necessarily that it will be executed wink.gifsmile.gif
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