8K by 4K or Octo HD - the real SUHDTV technology - Page 25 - AVS | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #721 of 746 Old 10-17-2014, 10:37 AM
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Originally Posted by irkuck View Post
And I never said that they were. I said I have been able to play a lot of games at 4K60 on a single GTX970.
When downsampled to 1080p, you don't need anti-aliasing at all with a 4K resolution, and many people with 4K native displays say the same thing. So that's an immediate boost to your framerate from "max settings".
And the mentality that many PC gamers have, that games have to be played at "max settings" or not at all is stupid. A lot of games are including features that are not intended for use on the current generation of graphics cards, or rendering options which are technically more accurate at a significant performance cost, but visually most people can't even tell it apart.

In Bioshock: Infinite for example, disabling DDoF will give you an extra 20-40% performance depending on the GPU. Contact hardening shadows are another performance hit from ultra settings, but actually look worse in the game due to LoD issues: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O-t9OjjVdy8#t=0m44s
Most games have a number of settings which will get you 90% of the visual fidelity at a fraction of the performance cost, as long as you don't mind not playing on "ultra" settings. And many of those "ultra" settings exist because we've been stuck at 1080p for so long with a ton of GPU power to spare.

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8K is supposed to be 120Hz. That requires ~8x processing power the current high end @4K. This is not coming to single card in the future we can predict now and tells why the experts are forecasting 8K with multiple cards.
Sure, rendering 8K isn't enough, now it has to be 8K at 120 FPS
Nevermind that console gamers seem perfectly happy with games running at 30 FPS, which frequently drop below that.

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And they're doing it with a mobile GPU...

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This confuses me. Are these pixels square? The resolution as stated is 5210 x 2880....if they're using an integer:integer screen dimension ratio, I can't figure out what it is.
It's 16:9. 5120/2880=1.78

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I would say that editing 4K is exactly what a 5K screen is useful for - You can run a full scale 4K preview window and still have space for the Editor tools on the same screen.
Of course the Dell UP2715K standalone monitor launched in September would be better choice for editing than the iMac thingy......
It is said that the Dell monitor is going to cost $2500, and requires two DisplayPort 1.2 connections. The iMac is $2500 and includes a computer.

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post #722 of 746 Old 10-17-2014, 01:21 PM
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Originally Posted by Chronoptimist View Post
It's 16:9. 5120/2880=1.78
Ah. Article had a typo then. (5210).

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post #723 of 746 Old 10-17-2014, 02:47 PM
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Originally Posted by coolscan View Post
I would say that editing 4K is exactly what a 5K screen is useful for - You can run a full scale 4K preview window and still have space for the Editor tools on the same screen.

Of course the Dell UP2715K standalone monitor launched in September would be better choice for editing than the iMac thingy......
Actually to get your timeline, clips bin, effects etc., you really can't run a full scale preview window and get everything in. The preview window, even on a 5K display, will have to be scaled down quite a bit.
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post #724 of 746 Old 10-18-2014, 09:26 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Chronoptimist View Post
It's 16:9. 5120/2880=1.78
If somebody still does not get where is the 5120x2880 coming from, take standard 720p HD which is 1280x720 as everyone knows. Now multiply that by 2 to get 2560x1440 and again multiply this by 2: 5120x2880 magically comes. Starting the same with the 1920x1080 gets to 8K 7680x4320.

By the way, with the 5K there may come time for computer monitors in really wide formats, not only 21:9 but more, with stretching imagination the width can get up to 27:9=3:1 substituting perfectly three monitor systems. Such monitors will naturally have to be curved. Unfortunately manufacturers lack imagination, obsessed with bending TVs.

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post #725 of 746 Old 10-18-2014, 11:23 AM
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Originally Posted by irkuck View Post
If somebody still does not get where is the 5120x2880 coming from, take standard 720p HD which is 1280x720 as everyone knows. Now multiply that by 2 to get 2560x1440 and again multiply this by 2: 5120x2880 magically comes. Starting the same with the 1920x1080 gets to 8K 7680x4320.

By the way, with the 5K there may come time for computer monitors in really wide formats, not only 21:9 but more, with stretching imagination the width can get up to 27:9=3:1 substituting perfectly three monitor systems. Such monitors will naturally have to be curved. Unfortunately manufacturers lack imagination, obsessed with bending TVs.
The confusion came from a typo in the article.

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post #726 of 746 Old 12-12-2014, 05:42 AM - Thread Starter
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post #727 of 746 Old 12-14-2014, 12:27 PM
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There's next to no benefit for 4k. Why would anyone need 8k? It's like putting 6 wheels on a car. you're not fixing a problem.
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post #728 of 746 Old 12-22-2014, 10:58 PM - Thread Starter
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There's next to no benefit for 4k. Why would anyone need 8k? It's like putting 6 wheels on a car. you're not fixing a problem.
Note that technology developments are unpredictable. As a side of 4K and 8K TV hype, 4K computer monitors are becoming standard part of model lineups. Not only this, 5K monitors also appeared. Graphics companies announced they are working on 8K. One can see high resolution monitors going beyond the standard shapes and into superwide, substituting multimonitor setups.
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post #729 of 746 Old 12-23-2014, 06:22 AM
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It's not a side effect of it. Personal computing has been driving the advancement in display resolution since the advent of the PC. The old school tube TV's stayed the same for a long time.

The difference being that I'm 2 feet or less from my laptop screen and phone. Not many people sit 2 feet from their TV. You're close enough to see the difference on a PC, iPad, iPhone, Mac, but the same can't be said at the standard seating difference. Also, those devices are natively at that resolution. The vast majority of what goes up on 4k TV's is upscaled content either at the source or at the TV.
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post #730 of 746 Old 01-08-2015, 02:34 AM - Thread Starter
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8K TVs are slowly but inevitably falling on us as the CES'15 shows:

Samsung

LG

Sharp

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post #731 of 746 Old 01-08-2015, 07:42 AM
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Originally Posted by irkuck View Post
8K TVs are slowly but inevitably falling on us as the CES'15 shows:

Samsung

LG

Sharp
http://gizmodo.com/lgs-ludicrous-8k-...dle-1677790143
Here's the correct link for the LG
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post #732 of 746 Old 02-21-2015, 07:00 AM - Thread Starter
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post #733 of 746 Old 02-21-2015, 08:30 AM
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Be prepared for you to be old and gray by the time that happens.
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post #734 of 746 Old 02-21-2015, 10:14 AM
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Forget the resolution for a moment. The "120/1.001" should have been in a font as large as I used here.


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Be prepared for you to be old and gray by the time that happens.
Yeah but I'll be peeing my depends in happiness in my wheelchair watching movies while you pee your depends in a wheelchair motoring around the ward grumbling trying to find the 24fps TV. :-P

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post #735 of 746 Old 02-21-2015, 11:21 AM
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^ No way, I'll still be shooting 4K video, but from my walker. Hopefully the nursing home will accept 4K@30p.
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post #736 of 746 Old 02-21-2015, 11:31 AM
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^ No way, I'll still be shooting 4K video, but from my walker. Hopefully the nursing home will accept 4K@30p.
LOL. Better hope for improved OIS.

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Don't you know the walker can also be used as a makeshift tripod?
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As soon as 4K goes mainstream in terms of the buying public, out will come the push for 8K. They will try to get you to ditch that new 4K because, well, you just need 8K! Its new, its better its a necessity. A necessity for them at least as they will want us all to me new sets again.

Louder is NOT better!
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post #739 of 746 Old 02-21-2015, 04:02 PM
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As soon as 4K goes mainstream in terms of the buying public, out will come the push for 8K. They will try to get you to ditch that new 4K because, well, you just need 8K! Its new, its better its a necessity. A necessity for them at least as they will want us all to me new sets again.
The problem is that 8K filming/editing/mastering is necessary for truly proper 4K delivery. The source industry (read as film makers) are far from delivering that.

AND, the leap from 4K to 8K is no where near as impacting as the leap from 2K to 4K. We're definitely deep within the diminishing returns at this point IMO.
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post #740 of 746 Old Yesterday, 03:16 AM
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The problem is that 8K filming/editing/mastering is necessary for truly proper 4K delivery. The source industry (read as film makers) are far from delivering that.
Why do you say that? Why do you really need to edit in 8K to deliver in 4K? If you edit in 4K you'd be better able to see what your viewers are going to be seeing (there may be advantages in using higher res footage like for stabilisaton, cropping, etc.) but editing at 4K with a 4K display should be good enough a lot of the time shouldn't it (say for a TV show doing simple editing)?

Are you talking about better downscaling/anti-aliasing/Nyquist? Or that the single chip cameras only really capture full 4K for luma? Does/would it really make that much difference? Do you have an example of 8K digitally shot video downscaled to a 4K video looking much better than a native 4K digitally shot video? What about with rendered animation (if rendered with proper anti-aliasing to 4K)? Why would that then need to be edited and mastered at 8K for proper 4K delivery? Are you talking about chroma-subsamplng?
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AND, the leap from 4K to 8K is no where near as impacting as the leap from 2K to 4K. We're definitely deep within the diminishing returns at this point IMO.
Maybe not, but with a lot bigger TVs (filling a lot of the wall) it should be - kind of. But if they're a lot bigger displays a problem will be that frame rate won't have increased at all from UHD1 Phase 2, so it will be back to more judder - you would have increased the size of the jumps the camera/objects did between each frame.

But "8K" (really 7680x4320) is really being intended for television. ie. with 99% of films, shot on film, there's probably no more than very slightly over 4K max (eg. 4300 I think one site said) - perhaps more on IMAX shot sequences or similar large format film. So for existing films, there won't be a lot of point scanning at 8K (except for a bit more resolution of the content but not much, and maybe a better capture of the grain). But it will be for new digitally shot TV (initially sports), which will give more actual resolution than scans of existing 35mm film. Also, it looks like TV will overtake cinema - since there's no current plans for "8K" cinema but the are for "8K" (7.68K) TV.

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^ I agree and disagree with tgm1024. I do agree that the jump from 4K to 8K will be far more subtle than going from 2K to 4K and require absolutely huge screens to truly appreciate the difference. So yes, I do think we've reached the point of diminishing returns.

I disagree that 8K is 'necessary' for proper 4K delivery. I can understand where he is coming from based on my own shooting experience.

I've shot with a variety of high-end consumer/prosumer HD cams, both single chip and 3-chip. Although they've generally yielded some very nice results, they pale by comparison to the down-converted 4K>2K results I get with my two 4K cameras.

In actuality I'm seeing, for the first time, true HD resolution in these 4K to HD downconversions that I was never able to attain in my HD equipment. I can also crop in 4K without any loss in an HD downconversion.

Does this mean that the only way I could have attained this kind of HD quality was with 4K acquisition? No.

Professional HD equipment with larger sensors and far better lenses could and do achieve it. So you don't need 4K to achieve excellent 2K.

I'm finding the world of 4K at the prosumer level to be even more interesting. The results we're able to achieve with relatively inexpensive equipment, comes amazingly close to some of the pro gear.

The 4K I shoot, looks virtually as good as the many 4K professional demos you see on the UHD TVs. I've even seen a couple of 8K sourced, 4K demos, and I can't say they looked any better than the 4K, professionally produced, demos I've seen.

At CES, Sharp had an 8K display on hand (80 something inches...I can't recall) and it looked no better than the many UHD displays around the show and certainly not as good as the UHD OLEDs.

So although 8K could theoretically enable a better 4K product in some respects and certainly enable some high quality cropping for 4K delivery, I don't believe it's necessary in the delivery of 'truly proper' 4K results.

I suspect that many of the advantages of sourcing in 8K would be lost anyway in the last parts of the delivery chain to the consumer.

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Why do you say that? Why do you really need to edit in 8K to deliver in 4K? If you edit in 4K you'd be better able to see what your viewers are going to be seeing
Of course you need to ultimately see what the user is seeing, but ideally you absolutely want everything prior to delivery to be at a higher resolution.

Two reasons (not necessarily in order):

1. Zooming/Cropping (even though zooming is best by the lens or camera position). No director gets his cameras 100% pixel for pixel where he ultimately wants it in every frame. They need additional resolution for the wiggle room or suffer the problem with effective downscaling.

2. Variable resolution delivery, though I'm not sure how this will take place in the future. Basically when downscaling to specific delivery formats, you minimize the artifacts when you start at a higher resolution than at a lower; it allows the algorithm to make better decisions regarding edges.

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Why do you say that? Why do you really need to edit in 8K to deliver in 4K? [....]

Are you talking about better downscaling/anti-aliasing/Nyquist? Or that the single chip cameras only really capture full 4K for luma? Does/would it really make that much difference?
I'm guessing he's referring to the fact that a 4K camera is capturing 4K resolution in green color information but only has 2K in red and blue. Whether or not it makes much of a difference having 'only' 2K resolution in red and blue on a 4K display I don't know, but if you want to be technically correct I think you need an 8K sensor to display 4K content. Let's not forget it's commonly argued that 4K itself doesn't make much of a difference (I don't necessarily agree, but that's beside the point).
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I'm guessing he's referring to the fact that a 4K camera is capturing 4K resolution in green color information but only has 2K in red and blue.
Because of the bayer filter and similar layouts? No, what I'm referring to is valid even with a unified sensor density.

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Originally Posted by tgm1024 View Post
Of course you need to ultimately see what the user is seeing, but ideally you absolutely want everything prior to delivery to be at a higher resolution.

Two reasons (not necessarily in order):

1. Zooming/Cropping (even though zooming is best by the lens or camera position). No director gets his cameras 100% pixel for pixel where he ultimately wants it in every frame. They need additional resolution for the wiggle room or suffer the problem with effective downscaling.
...
Though technically won't that make the perspective wrong if he repositions it (eg. moves it to the left/right)? Wouldn't it be more accurate (and better quality) in that case if he had framed it correctly in the first place in 4K? Maybe the viewers won't notice but shouldn't the correctly positioned 4K be more accurate (correct perspective) than the shifted and scaled/zoomed 8K? Also won't the scaled/zoomed/repositioned 8K version look flatter/more 2D whereas a correctly positioned 4K could look more 3D/and more wide-angle?

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Though technically won't that make the perspective wrong if he repositions it (eg. moves it to the left/right)? Wouldn't it be more accurate (and better quality) in that case if he had framed it correctly in the first place in 4K?
Sure, and if the frame isn't pixel for pixel where he wants it to be, what are you going to tell him? "Film it again"?

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