Gamer Looking For The Final 2012 Word - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 64 Old 10-09-2012, 03:50 AM - Thread Starter
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Ok, I know there are a lot, if not too many of these "Plasma or LCD" threads. But mine is more of a personal, direct question. So I figured I could ask here without seeming like the "same ol' thread". As most the other threads on the subject are too round about, I will have this one steered in a more streamline direction and to focus on me personally and what I use my TV for.

So, I am mainly a gamer. Probably do 85% gaming, 10% BD/DVD'ing and 5% Broadcast Cable T.V.ing. I would say I game a maximum of 6 hours a day sometimes. But will game at least something everyday.

With that said, when I watch movies, unfortunately, they are not always new widescreen movies. Some are old T.V. series box set on DVD, so I will experience the "bars" somewhere. But the other half of the time are new widescreen movies.

Now with that background on me, I also am very anal and picky about my PQ. SO after LONG research I think I have decided to get a Panasonic TC-P55VT50 Plasma HDTV. Its just the best screen for the money right now. And I want a new TV now.

BUT I am still not comfortable with my decision, and every 5 minutes I change my mind back to maybe a good LCD because of the horror stories I read about people with my type of gaming habits and DVD black bar habits getting "Burn In". Not Image Retention, but genuine "Burn In". Then I read reviews where people are telling those people who told their horror story that they did something wrong, or thats impossible, etc...

Also hear about a Red vertical line down one edge, and a Blue vertical line down the other edge with slightly colored edges of fonts too on their plasmas. Then again, others saying that is not the case.

Some of the arguments back and forth are over "your plasma is too old, the new ones don't do that as easy", or "you have to break it in correctly and that wont happen". Then the come backs are, "mine is a 2012 model, and I broke it in for 200 hours".

ETC................. you see my point.

Now me being a serious gamer, BUT serious about the best PQ I can get for that price range, I really want this Panasonic TC-P55VT50, but I have to ask you all here, is it a bad choice for me to get a Plasma TV ? Will this 2012 model be prone to any of the issues I described above ? What do you think ?

Also, I heard Plasmas really buzz decently loud, especially when the screen is bright. Some say to the point of annoyance.

There is so much compelling evidence pointing to both sides. And I just couldn't have that happen to my TV. At the same time, I just can't deal with Motion Blur, Aura effect, blooming, etc... Please help a weary mind with a solid decision to be a happy one too :-)

Thanks so much for any input and help you can provide !
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post #2 of 64 Old 10-09-2012, 07:05 PM
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I've had a 55" VT50 since May. I never broke it in. I've never had a problem with burn-in or egregious IR. I get temporary IR, and find that the TV is most susceptible to IR the first 5-10 minutes of it being powered on or so. That being said, I don't game - my usage is about 60% BD viewing, 20% HDTV, and 20% displaying my Apple TV Now Playing screen/screensaver while I listen to music. If you game a lot, especially up to six hours a day, I think you''re asking for trouble with any plasma. No matter what people here might perpetuate, burn-in is still a very real concern and possibility on modern plasma. "Break-in" procedures are only to ensure the panel's phosphors are aged evenly in preparation for applying particular settings to the TV. Break-in does nothing to prevent IR or burn-in, nor is it intended to. Now, during the first 200 hours or so, since the phosphors are "young," the TV is more susceptible to IR or burn in, so being conscious of your usage is important during this period, as is not leaving brightness or contrast too high.

All that being said, if you like the picture quality of the VT50 then you will probably not like the performance of a comparable LCD as much, and they'll also cost you more. IMO, the only sufficient substitutes for the VT50 are the Sony HX950 (or older HX929) and the Sharp PRO-X5FD,oth of which cost more than the VT. An LCD might be worth the peace of mind of not having to worry about your usage while gaming, however.

You could always get the VT50 and purchase an extended warranty that specifically covers burn-in, too.

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post #3 of 64 Old 10-09-2012, 07:52 PM
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I have the 55st50 since launch.. no problems and i game 90% and 10% tv
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post #4 of 64 Old 10-10-2012, 09:09 AM
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With that lengthy of gaming sessions I would be worried about burning the HUD in or at least long term IR.
Lots of people are complaining about bad lengthy IR with the 2012 Pannys in this thread (http://www.avsforum.com/t/1414908/panasonic-st50-image-retention-please-help) as well as in the ST50 owners thread which has me a bit scared off.

I'm a gamer who is interested in possibly a new plasma myself so I've been on the fence and researching it for quite awhile reading both the st50 and Sammy e7000 owner threads all the way through. Something else that is keeping me on the fence are the reports of flicker and judder when gaming on the Panny plasmas. I think I'd have to try a game on one before I put down money on one.
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post #5 of 64 Old 10-10-2012, 12:39 PM
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What type of games do you usually play? If you're really concerned, you can get an HDMI switch and have a computer monitor dedicated for your long gaming sessions. It's what I did, and it works great! The only thing that you need to worry about is sound, this is where a headset comes in handy. This solution is expensive and can be complicated, but for someone who games for up to 6hrs a day......it might be worth it.
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post #6 of 64 Old 10-10-2012, 03:46 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fatuglyguy View Post

I've had a 55" VT50 since May. I never broke it in. I've never had a problem with burn-in or egregious IR. I get temporary IR, and find that the TV is most susceptible to IR the first 5-10 minutes of it being powered on or so. That being said, I don't game - my usage is about 60% BD viewing, 20% HDTV, and 20% displaying my Apple TV Now Playing screen/screensaver while I listen to music. If you game a lot, especially up to six hours a day, I think you''re asking for trouble with any plasma. No matter what people here might perpetuate, burn-in is still a very real concern and possibility on modern plasma. "Break-in" procedures are only to ensure the panel's phosphors are aged evenly in preparation for applying particular settings to the TV. Break-in does nothing to prevent IR or burn-in, nor is it intended to. Now, during the first 200 hours or so, since the phosphors are "young," the TV is more susceptible to IR or burn in, so being conscious of your usage is important during this period, as is not leaving brightness or contrast too high.

All that being said, if you like the picture quality of the VT50 then you will probably not like the performance of a comparable LCD as much, and they'll also cost you more. IMO, the only sufficient substitutes for the VT50 are the Sony HX950 (or older HX929) and the Sharp PRO-X5FD,oth of which cost more than the VT. An LCD might be worth the peace of mind of not having to worry about your usage while gaming, however.

You could always get the VT50 and purchase an extended warranty that specifically covers burn-in, too.
Thanks for the informative reply and suggestions. Yea, I know I am pushing the envelope even thinking of a plasma when I am such a serious gamer, BUT DUDE, I just can't handle motion blur and that aura effect/blooming that even the best LCDs do. Plus the contrast ratio's, even though LCD's are closing the gap, I just really appreciate the rich and smooth but precise look Plasma displays have.

I did not know about the extended warranty covering Burn In. That might be it and the answer to all my worries there. Peace of mind. But is there a specific extended warranty that is the only one that covers Burn In ? Or is that one that any place will offer just fine ? Also, how long is it for ? And you can guaranty it does indeed cover Burn In ?
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Originally Posted by hotskins View Post

I have the 55st50 since launch.. no problems and i game 90% and 10% tv
This is great news ! Thanks for sharing. I just wonder why so many people report problems (even not gaming or gaming very little), and then some like you report having absolutely no BI issues and are serious gamers ? Is it possible every display even from the same company and same model number is built slightly different ?

Or is it possible that some peoples eyes are either not good enough, or they as a person are not anal enough to see they actually do have minor BI and just don't see it ? Cause I know I will see anything, any flaw, etc.. I just super picky with great eyes. I also hear anything too the same way. I can't stand MP3's, they sound like crap. And most the world can't tell. (Hence the music industry has collapsed.)

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Originally Posted by nocturnx View Post

With that lengthy of gaming sessions I would be worried about burning the HUD in or at least long term IR.
Lots of people are complaining about bad lengthy IR with the 2012 Pannys in this thread (http://www.avsforum.com/t/1414908/panasonic-st50-image-retention-please-help) as well as in the ST50 owners thread which has me a bit scared off.

I'm a gamer who is interested in possibly a new plasma myself so I've been on the fence and researching it for quite awhile reading both the st50 and Sammy e7000 owner threads all the way through. Something else that is keeping me on the fence are the reports of flicker and judder when gaming on the Panny plasmas. I think I'd have to try a game on one before I put down money on one.
Yea, sounds like we are in the same boat. Like I said in response to fatuglyguy above though, I just love the looks and performance of a Plasma. I am unsure how to weigh possible BI vs motion blur, blooming, and just simply not as rich of a display.

Also I have to admit, Plasmas do have other issues, though not as serious in my book, they do still hold some lean to other side value... like Heat, and buzzing loud when bright colors are on the screen. I kinda hate that. But man, I never heard of the flickering/jidder issue you mentioned and that is indeed really scaring me now :-( I agree, being able to game on one right next to a good LCD would be nice. But just don't know how to accomplish that with the type of testing I would want to do. LOL, would take hours and being in my environment, not some stores.

Like you said, it sucks, cause every little thing makes me keep being on the fence for both. Don't know what to do.
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Originally Posted by ElectronicTonic View Post

What type of games do you usually play? If you're really concerned, you can get an HDMI switch and have a computer monitor dedicated for your long gaming sessions. It's what I did, and it works great! The only thing that you need to worry about is sound, this is where a headset comes in handy. This solution is expensive and can be complicated, but for someone who games for up to 6hrs a day......it might be worth it.

Hey ElectronicTonic, thanks for the great advice ! I have to say though, as good of a idea as that is, for me right now, it wont work (LONG story), but my place will not be set up to accommodate such a set up until I am done with a remodel. Plus, the whole idea is to play the games on a 55"er. Do they even make computer monitors that big ? And if they do make them that size, aren't they LCD anyway ? The whole point to this is to play my games on the plasma quality and at least 55".

Games I mainly play are RPG's (Oblivion, Skyrim, Dragon's Dogma, etc..) They have health meters/HUD's and stuff on the screen permanently, and with RPG's sometimes you are in a menu screen going through inventory for a LONG time - ha ha... this is pretty text and boxish looking. I also play old school games like Resident Evil's and stuff. Even plug my old NES in and play super Mario Bros ( LOL). But that is just sometimes.

Lots of my older games I play will be in 4:3 ratio... So I'll be barring. Don't know what to do then. On the older games, I wouldn't mind the switch to a computer monitor idea, sure... But again, the current issue of my place wont allow for such a set up.

A few of the movies I will watch are also 4:3. But again, remember that 85% of content on this TV will be games. Out of that 85%, about 10% will be old school 4:3 style games.
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post #7 of 64 Old 10-10-2012, 03:56 PM
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off the top of my head, best buy's plan is the only EW i know that covers burn-in. here's a brochure for their plan:

http://www.geeksquad.com/uploadedFiles/wwwgeeksquadcom/protection_plans/geek_squad_protection/home-theater-brochure.pdf

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post #8 of 64 Old 10-10-2012, 10:30 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fatuglyguy View Post

off the top of my head, best buy's plan is the only EW i know that covers burn-in. here's a brochure for their plan:

http://www.geeksquad.com/uploadedFiles/wwwgeeksquadcom/protection_plans/geek_squad_protection/home-theater-brochure.pdf

Thanks for the link. Yea, I see it says it covers it there. But I notice how it is worded like this: "we will get your screen back to pristine". That doesn't say they will replace it though. Which doesn't matter to me, if they get it back to normal, then cool ! BUT, reading the fine print at the bottom, it does say that you may be charge a diagnosis fee for them to preform a diagnosis to determine the cause of the issue. See where this is going ? To me, this opens the door for them to then say the diagnosis proves that it was owner negligence to cause the BI (which a video game's HUD or health meter burnt into the screen might detail - HA ha !!) in which in that case, its not going to be covered, on top of that you had to pay the diagnosis fee AND the price of the TV AND the warranty for nothing really.

LOL - Damn !

Then again, maybe not. I am just bringing up possible BS cause I know how these manufactures and stores are. So what I will do tomorrow is go down to BB and drill them on everything. On top of that, I may bring my xBox down there and test my favorite game on a few tv's.

I will let you know what they say about the detailed questions on the EW BI coverage and then also if they let me play my games on a Plasma down there

Thanks again for your input and help on this.
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post #9 of 64 Old 10-11-2012, 12:38 AM
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I work at BB, so I may be able to help. I am not a service technician, so I can't comment about the claims process and how your individual claim would be processed, but I can speak to in-store experience. I have only processed a few extended warranty exchanges in my time working there for burn-in related issues. Generally, from my understanding, they will asses repair costs and go from there. I am not sure that "burn-in" is something that can be repaired, unless it;s just really bad IR. So, they may determine it is not economical to repair because the TV would require a new panel, in which case you'll receive a "junk-out" voucher and an associate will assist you in finding a new TV that is most comparable to what you had ("spec-for-spec" match) without exceeding the cost paid for your original item. I have done many more EW fulfillments on TVs with dead/stuck pixels or other panel defects and this is generally how it works.

Here is a link to the full plan T&Cs: Burn-in is only briefly mentioned in Part A, Bullet Point 1, Section 6; it does not seem to make any explicit exemptions:

http://www.geeksquad.com/uploadedFiles/wwwgeeksquadcom/protection_plans/Geek_Squad_Protection_TsandCs_7_15_12_English.pdf

ht Panasonic 60" ZT60, Monitor Audio: Silver RX6, RX Centre, RX1; Martinlogan Dynamo 700, Marantz SR5006, PS3, Oppo BDP-103D, Panamax M-5100PM
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post #10 of 64 Old 10-11-2012, 10:53 AM
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Let us know what you get JoelxD. I would be especially interested in your experience from a gaming perspective. I am guilty of 4-6 hour marathons of CoD, BL2, BF3 and Skyrim myself on the weekends. Apparently there are models popping up with a -2 at the end, like a 55ST50-2. Could be a new revision or might be nothing... but a couple people that exchanged their original sets for a new one think they have better screen uniformity and possibly less IR.
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post #11 of 64 Old 10-11-2012, 02:25 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fatuglyguy View Post

I work at BB, so I may be able to help. I am not a service technician, so I can't comment about the claims process and how your individual claim would be processed, but I can speak to in-store experience. I have only processed a few extended warranty exchanges in my time working there for burn-in related issues. Generally, from my understanding, they will asses repair costs and go from there. I am not sure that "burn-in" is something that can be repaired, unless it;s just really bad IR. So, they may determine it is not economical to repair because the TV would require a new panel, in which case you'll receive a "junk-out" voucher and an associate will assist you in finding a new TV that is most comparable to what you had ("spec-for-spec" match) without exceeding the cost paid for your original item. I have done many more EW fulfillments on TVs with dead/stuck pixels or other panel defects and this is generally how it works.

Here is a link to the full plan T&Cs: Burn-in is only briefly mentioned in Part A, Bullet Point 1, Section 6; it does not seem to make any explicit exemptions:

http://www.geeksquad.com/uploadedFiles/wwwgeeksquadcom/protection_plans/Geek_Squad_Protection_TsandCs_7_15_12_English.pdf

Thanks for this info. I will keep you posted on what I find out. Hopefully the issue would never arise, its just IF it did, how would they handle it ? Try to weasel out ? Or just give me a new TV ? I would not want one comparable, I would want the same exact one. Unless there is no more being made at the time of issue, but with this line, I do not think that would happen that soon. My problem with "spec for spec match" is there are some hidden specs we do not know about, and if you fall in move with a TV, sometimes if one is different, but the same listed, readable "specs", it still could perform different. Due to some secret cool way they made the display that year, or anything like that, that wasn't listed in "known specs".

Anyway, thanks again. I'll let you know what happens.

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Let us know what you get JoelxD. I would be especially interested in your experience from a gaming perspective. I am guilty of 4-6 hour marathons of CoD, BL2, BF3 and Skyrim myself on the weekends. Apparently there are models popping up with a -2 at the end, like a 55ST50-2. Could be a new revision or might be nothing... but a couple people that exchanged their original sets for a new one think they have better screen uniformity and possibly less IR.

Yes, I will for sure. Unfortunately, I am unsure if I will get there today, cause I want to be well prepared (bring some slides and stuff on a thumbdrive, xBox, games, come with a plan, etc..) and for all that, my day is not unfolding properly. Another thing, is I NOW have read up on the Plasma flicker/judder issue you told me about, and am concerned about that now as it seems to be a legit complaint. All in all, its like every day I jump to the other side of the fence. I'm wondering if all this is worth the extra 1k it would take to just got buy a Sony XBR 55" cause that seems to be the only affordable LCD that is up to Plasma specs. And I just am wondering if the Plasma concerns are too much for me ? (BI, IR, Heat, Buzzing noise, Flicker, etc..) Then again, even though LCD's don't have that, even the best ones will have at least SLIGHTLY more blooming artifacts, etc..

SO what should I do ? And why ? lol I can get the VT50 series from Panny (Plasma) for 2k. Can get the Sony XBR for 3k.

Now I also have learnt about Input Lag, and need to research which one would have less Input Lag as well. I think I am going to post a few more threads in other sections here to get some of the things I need for my visit to the store. Like these "Slides" people are talking about. And any other possible "good" visual testing screens (all black, all white, either with text, etc..)
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post #12 of 64 Old 10-11-2012, 03:06 PM
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Well, if you can't do the monitor thing you might have a tough time finding the best display for what you want to do. It's really hard to find info on input lag for newer TVs. There's a thread somewhere on here, I think it's called "input lag wars". My last advice is just a warning, if you plan on gaming that long on a plasma, you more than likely will get really bad IR, or worse.....burn in. The newer plasmas are more resistant, but if you plan on gaming for 4+hrs a day, you might run into issues. Take my advise for what it is, my opinion......not fact. I too have a plasma and game a lot. I used to use it as my primary gaming display.......until I started to see really persistent IR, then I just got a monitor. I still game on my plasma though, just not as often and not as long.

It looks like you are very prepared, and you know what you want. So best of luck and keep us posted.
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post #13 of 64 Old 10-11-2012, 03:25 PM
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I was in this same predicament... I ended up not going with an LCD or a Plasma... I went with this year's 73" DLP (WD-73642) from Mitsubishi.

I had a 65" DLP (WD-65638) last year. I didn't notice any input lag on that set and motion was really great. Better than BOTH LCD and Plasma, IMHO. Did NOT see any rainbows unless I was shaking my head extremely violently while the screen was in my peripheral vision at the same time.

I ended up selling that TV and getting a Sony 55" KDL-55NX720 because it had a great sale at Fry's and I wanted something with better blacks. The replacement Sony was wonderful and great with motion, but only if you used Motionflow on Clear or Auto 2. Using either of these added a lot of input lag for games, so it kind of made me NOT game as much anymore. (Pretty much every LCD that doesn't turn on their image clearing feature will be pretty blurry with motion, but turning on that feature will add input lag... so it's only really nice to use on turn based games... Movies and TV shows were beautiful, though.)

I wanted to game again, though, and Plasma is never an option for gaming or even watching TV in my house. Sure the screen and picture is BEAUTIFUL... And, even though I could babysit the TV, I don't want to... I don't want to have to teach my girlfriend, who lives with me, how to watch TV either. ("Don't leave the Netflix screen up after movies, if you need to pause for more than a couple of minutes, change the channel", "If the program isn't wide screen, use the ratio button to stretch it.", etc.)

I actually sold that Sony last month and ordered the 73" DLP ... Got it delivered yesterday. Have NOT set it up yet, but will set it up today. This time I'm going to keep it and just set up a bias light for watching movies in the dark. :-)

Current HT setup:

Samsung UN65F6300 65" LCD HDTV, Polk CS20 Center, 2x Polk Monitor 75T Fronts, 2x Polk TSI300 Backs, Polk PSW110 Subwoofer.

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post #14 of 64 Old 10-11-2012, 05:20 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ElectronicTonic View Post

Well, if you can't do the monitor thing you might have a tough time finding the best display for what you want to do. It's really hard to find info on input lag for newer TVs. There's a thread somewhere on here, I think it's called "input lag wars". My last advice is just a warning, if you plan on gaming that long on a plasma, you more than likely will get really bad IR, or worse.....burn in. The newer plasmas are more resistant, but if you plan on gaming for 4+hrs a day, you might run into issues. Take my advise for what it is, my opinion......not fact. I too have a plasma and game a lot. I used to use it as my primary gaming display.......until I started to see really persistent IR, then I just got a monitor. I still game on my plasma though, just not as often and not as long.

It looks like you are very prepared, and you know what you want. So best of luck and keep us posted.

Very good point. And believe me, it is at the heart of my decision lag. lol - If fatuglyguy is right about the EW from BB, and after I completely drill them with questions about every possible loophole in the warranty, and they do indeed say, they will replace the TV, then I may just chalk up the EW price as my "lease" of a guarantee, and basically, if I get BI, fine, take it back for a new one. And just keep doing that if it keeps happening. When the EW is about to expire, I will just extend it again. (I believe they let you renew it for a total of 10 years max, in 2-4 year increments of purchase)... SO if it is only a couple hundred bucks each renewal, then to me it is worth it. I get a Plasma quality display, and just don't worry about BI. I'll return it for a new one if I see BI. After the 10 years is up, I will want a different TV anyway. I am sure by then Plasma wont be the best display anymore. OLED LCD's will have fine tuned themselves to perfection. Or something will.

BUT the other things are concerning me now. Things I can not take the TV back for. Input Lag, Flicker, Buzzing, Heat, stuff like that. But really, I also don't want to deal with all that returning hassle for a TV, so maybe this will effect my decision.

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Originally Posted by sodaboy581 View Post

I was in this same predicament... I ended up not going with an LCD or a Plasma... I went with this year's 73" DLP (WD-73642) from Mitsubishi.

I had a 65" DLP (WD-65638) last year. I didn't notice any input lag on that set and motion was really great. Better than BOTH LCD and Plasma, IMHO. Did NOT see any rainbows unless I was shaking my head extremely violently while the screen was in my peripheral vision at the same time.

I ended up selling that TV and getting a Sony 55" KDL-55NX720 because it had a great sale at Fry's and I wanted something with better blacks. The replacement Sony was wonderful and great with motion, but only if you used Motionflow on Clear or Auto 2. Using either of these added a lot of input lag for games, so it kind of made me NOT game as much anymore. (Pretty much every LCD that doesn't turn on their image clearing feature will be pretty blurry with motion, but turning on that feature will add input lag... so it's only really nice to use on turn based games... Movies and TV shows were beautiful, though.)

I wanted to game again, though, and Plasma is never an option for gaming or even watching TV in my house. Sure the screen and picture is BEAUTIFUL... And, even though I could babysit the TV, I don't want to... I don't want to have to teach my girlfriend, who lives with me, how to watch TV either. ("Don't leave the Netflix screen up after movies, if you need to pause for more than a couple of minutes, change the channel", "If the program isn't wide screen, use the ratio button to stretch it.", etc.)

I actually sold that Sony last month and ordered the 73" DLP ... Got it delivered yesterday. Have NOT set it up yet, but will set it up today. This time I'm going to keep it and just set up a bias light for watching movies in the dark. :-)

Thanks for chiming in to help sodaboy581. I have thought about DLP, but for some reason never thought they were a good enough display for me. I have to admit though, I've never used one in real life. Just seen them at a A/V store. I swore I read somewhere that they had issues too as well that stack as high as LCD or Plasma, and just like the monkey wrench is, their issues are different than LCD or Plasma. So to me this just added to the confusion, and I drew the line in my mind, and just didn't want to even think about another technology - LOL.

But hearing from you, being a gamer, maybe there is something to it ? You are saying the PQ is comparable to high end LCD's ? But with the non-existent motion blur and blooming of Plasma ? But PQ is not quite as good as Plasma ? BUT input lag is better than both ? Right ?

On my research, I was under the impression that DLP also had input lag issues though. Also their PQ simply was not up to par. But instead of believing what I read, maybe I will add them to the testing I do when I go on the TV testing day. Real quick, do DLP also offer the Smart TV apps and WiFi and stuff ?
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post #15 of 64 Old 10-11-2012, 05:57 PM
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Thanks for chiming in to help sodaboy581. I have thought about DLP, but for some reason never thought they were a good enough display for me. I have to admit though, I've never used one in real life. Just seen them at a A/V store. I swore I read somewhere that they had issues too as well that stack as high as LCD or Plasma, and just like the monkey wrench is, their issues are different than LCD or Plasma. So to me this just added to the confusion, and I drew the line in my mind, and just didn't want to even think about another technology - LOL.
But hearing from you, being a gamer, maybe there is something to it ? You are saying the PQ is comparable to high end LCD's ? But with the non-existent motion blur and blooming of Plasma ? But PQ is not quite as good as Plasma ? BUT input lag is better than both ? Right ?
On my research, I was under the impression that DLP also had input lag issues though. Also their PQ simply was not up to par. But instead of believing what I read, maybe I will add them to the testing I do when I go on the TV testing day. Real quick, do DLP also offer the Smart TV apps and WiFi and stuff ?

It's hard to compare a DLP at the A/V store. The size of the DLP, as well as the screen, can make the picture seem dimmer than the competing LCDs or Plasma. (And, it most likely is when the screen size of the DLP is really high since the same bulb is used for the 73", 82" and 92".) But the picture quality is really great on DLP. I don't have ANY complaints about it. But I don't have the same situation as you...

Anything 480i, like your old school games, is going to look pretty bad on the DLP. This is because the screen size is big and also the fact that the built-in TV scaler isn't high quality. The scaler works for low-res stuff, but it's merely passable. If you do a lot of 480i gaming, I would invest in a better quality scaler, like the DVD Edge or even more expensive and use it's game mode for a better effect. 720p, 1080i, and 1080p stuff looks great, though.

With a DLP, you have to worry about the lamp bulb going and the color wheel eventually needing to be replaced. Lamp bulb replacements are $99 for the Mitsu TVs and your lamp that comes with the set should last you a good 3-4 years with average use. If you have your TV on ALL the time or constantly turn the thing on and off repeatedly through the day, that might get cut down to 2 years, though. The color wheel, however, is variable, but it SHOULD last a pretty long time. Easily over 5 years. By that time, you might already be shopping around for a new TV already.

If you decide to get a DLP, set the lights in your room how you like, change the mode from Brilliant to Natural and do some basic calibration with your favorite calibration disc or downloaded test media and you'll have a really great picture.

I know some DLP sets have problems with input lag. Usually I see those complaints from people who aren't using Mitsubishi DLPs... Like an older Samsung or Toshiba or something else... but those manufacturers haven't made DLP TVs in awhile... and, speaking from my own experience, I didn't have a problem with input lag on the 65" I had before. (That was a 2010 model.) I will chime in once I've tested by 2012 model this weekend, but I expect the input lag to be just fine. I play games in 720p/1080p (PS3, XBox360.)

I believe the DLP is on par or faster than any LCD or Plasma I've tried. I know there's some lightning fast LCDs out there that are WONDERFUL for gaming... But, for ALL OF THEM, you have to use them in a game mode or a mode that doesn't do any sort of enhancements to the picture or make the motion look better... and, to me, what the hell is the point? You've got great input lag and the movement on the screen matches what you're doing... But can you CLEARLY make out what the hell is going on in said movement? Probably not. You can get a good idea, but that's not enough for me. I have to have low input lag and see the fast motion associated with it CLEARLY... and DLP does just that.

DLP TVs DO offer the Smart apps and Wi-Fi, but you have to buy one of the "Step up" models . This year, that's a XX742 or higher TV. See here: http://www.mitsubishi-tv.com/tv/WD-73742/specifications then go here: http://www.mitsubishi-tv.com/features and watch the video regarding "Stream TV".

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It's hard to compare a DLP at the A/V store. The size of the DLP, as well as the screen, can make the picture seem... (snip)....
(SEE ABOVE REFERENCED POST #15 for full post)

Thanks for the informative post !

You really got me going on this DLP thing, so I went to check them out online, and there only seems to be huge screened ones. Don't they make any ones in a 55" max size ? I know that sounds hilarious, as bigger IS better, but for my purchase this particular time, until my house is done (LONG STORY), I can only accommodate a 55" model tops. But I would want a new one from this year and the Smart TV Streaming ability.

Anyway, looked everywhere and can't seem to find them. Are DLP's only made huge ?
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Anyway, looked everywhere and can't seem to find them. Are DLP's only made huge ?

Unfortunately, yes. The smallest one you'd probably be able to find would be a 60", but it's a couple of years old. The ones from this year are only 73" and higher...

Also, the 60" that had the Smart TV, the WD-60738, I can't seem to find available for purchase anymore. The 60" without Smart TV, the WD-60638, can actually be ordered from Best Buy still. (And it's going for a pretty damn good price...) http://www.bestbuy.com/site/Mitsubishi+-+Home+Cinema+-+60%22+Class+-+DLP+-+1080p+-+60Hz+-+3D+-+HDTV/9966999.p?id=1218202944577&skuId=9966999&st=WD-60638&cp=1&lp=1

You COULD just plug in a Roku or an HTPC to it, for Smart TV stuff... if you're desperate... But still, 60" is still bigger than 55", so maybe still too big.

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Unfortunately, yes. The smallest one you'd probably be able to find would be a 60", but it's a couple of years old. The ones from this year are only 73" and higher...

Also, the 60" that had the Smart TV, the WD-60738, I can't seem to find available for purchase anymore. The 60" without Smart TV, the WD-60638, can actually be ordered from Best Buy still. (And it's going for a pretty damn good price...) http://www.bestbuy.com/site/Mitsubishi+-+Home+Cinema+-+60%22+Class+-+DLP+-+1080p+-+60Hz+-+3D+-+HDTV/9966999.p?id=1218202944577&skuId=9966999&st=WD-60638&cp=1&lp=1

You COULD just plug in a Roku or an HTPC to it, for Smart TV stuff... if you're desperate... But still, 60" is still bigger than 55", so maybe still too big.

Well, I might be able to work in a 60", just maybe, but my issue with that is, I would want the newest DLP with the better specs. It seems the older one has a few inferior specs ? No ?

In any case, I will take a look at my options in the store and go from there.

Thinking of going today, BUT have been waiting and waiting for someone in the HDTV Tech forum to answer my thread about where can I find some DVD's or files that are good for a A/B shoot-out comparison, stuff like that.... After all the talk I hear about them, and stuff, man, no one has responded telling which are the best, for what, and where to find them.

I might just go there with my XBox and Skyrim and Dragon's Dogma and only use that as the testing source.... BUT I would want so much to come more prepared.
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Well, I might be able to work in a 60", just maybe, but my issue with that is, I would want the newest DLP with the better specs. It seems the older one has a few inferior specs ? No ?
In any case, I will take a look at my options in the store and go from there.
Thinking of going today, BUT have been waiting and waiting for someone in the HDTV Tech forum to answer my thread about where can I find some DVD's or files that are good for a A/B shoot-out comparison, stuff like that.... After all the talk I hear about them, and stuff, man, no one has responded telling which are the best, for what, and where to find them.
I might just go there with my XBox and Skyrim and Dragon's Dogma and only use that as the testing source.... BUT I would want so much to come more prepared.
Do you need dvd or blu-ray? There are a number of different calibration discs out there with some good demo material on them. I've used DVE, and Disney's WOW discs. I also just got some HD images from online and put them on a USB flash drive. I have a laptop with an HDMI out that I can view them with. If you can use a blu-ray player there's a bunch of reference quality movies you can use.
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post #20 of 64 Old 10-12-2012, 05:07 PM - Thread Starter
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Do you need dvd or blu-ray? There are a number of different calibration discs out there with some good demo material on them. I've used DVE, and Disney's WOW discs. I also just got some HD images from online and put them on a USB flash drive. I have a laptop with an HDMI out that I can view them with. If you can use a blu-ray player there's a bunch of reference quality movies you can use.

DVD and/or BD and/or Files would be fine, as long as the images/demo movie material is of Full HD quality. Thats great about the Laptop idea and how you do it, but unfortunately for me, I'm still using a older laptop, with no HDMI out, plus the computer itself doesn't do full HD period - lol...

But yes, please, that is the material I am looking for, do you know where I can get this ? DVE, Disney's WOW and good demo material ? In-particular I would be looking for material that would be best to show/expose Motion Blur, Blooming, General PQ, Blacks, Whites, Contrast Ratio, Buzzing, Flicker, and anything else you may think, etc...
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DVD and/or BD and/or Files would be fine, as long as the images/demo movie material is of Full HD quality. Thats great about the Laptop idea and how you do it, but unfortunately for me, I'm still using a older laptop, with no HDMI out, plus the computer itself doesn't do full HD period - lol...
But yes, please, that is the material I am looking for, do you know where I can get this ? DVE, Disney's WOW and good demo material ? In-particular I would be looking for material that would be best to show/expose Motion Blur, Blooming, General PQ, Blacks, Whites, Contrast Ratio, Buzzing, Flicker, and anything else you may think, etc...
Here's where you can get them online....LINK......I've heard the Spears & Munsil disc is good too, I don't know what demo material is on it though. As far as blu-ray reference material, there's a ton.....The Dark Night has some great material to test right at the beginning of the film, I use it a lot because it's quick and easy. I'm not going to tell you what to look for, because that could differ from set to set. Just get some material you're familiar with and know what it should look like and use that.
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Here's where you can get them online....LINK......I've heard the Spears & Munsil disc is good too, I don't know what demo material is on it though. As far as blu-ray reference material, there's a ton.....The Dark Night has some great material to test right at the beginning of the film, I use it a lot because it's quick and easy. I'm not going to tell you what to look for, because that could differ from set to set. Just get some material you're familiar with and know what it should look like and use that.

PERFECT !! Thanks so much man, I really appreciate the direct link. I am going to buy the WOW disc and the Spears $ Munsil one... Should have all bases covered then. These seem good to have for home too, so I feel it is a good purchase that benefits me well beyond the TV search. Plus I can use them for when I go through all this with my mom when she decides to get a new TV (coming soon !)

The Dark Knight is a good idea.

On any of the WOW or S&M (lol) discs is there a section that is good for exposing a TV's motion blur ? If not, what do you recommend for that ? Dark Knight might help me there, but to save time, was wondering if you had off the top of your head a "go to spot" (minutes and seconds) into it where it would be a perfect test ?
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Following this thread as I'm in the market for a new TV and game fairly heavy also. I also want to note my last experience since you brought up plasma burn in. I bought a Panasonic vt30 55". Did the proper breakin , well over 100 hrs running dnices slides before even hooking it up to anything else. Once I did game used game mode exclusively, anti-image retention on, and ran the anti image scrolling bar after I finished 3-5 times every time. I still got burn in from the HUD. From bf3 I have the squad member bars burned into the screen and the bottom right HUD also. Its not horrible but its permanent and can be seen on light screens.

I jut don't know if I want another plasma after doing all I did and still got burn in. But I am concerned with lag going with an LCD.

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A wise man once said if it sounds like a broken record there is a motive behind the message.
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Following this thread as I'm in the market for a new TV and game fairly heavy also. I also want to note my last experience since you brought up plasma burn in. I bought a Panasonic vt30 55". Did the proper breakin , well over 100 hrs running dnices slides before even hooking it up to anything else. Once I did game used game mode exclusively, anti-image retention on, and ran the anti image scrolling bar after I finished 3-5 times every time. I still got burn in from the HUD. From bf3 I have the squad member bars burned into the screen and the bottom right HUD also. Its not horrible but its permanent and can be seen on light screens.

I jut don't know if I want another plasma after doing all I did and still got burn in. But I am concerned with lag going with an LCD.

Sent from my Nexus 7 using Xparent Blue Tapatalk 2

Hey Bill ! Thanks for this valuable info, and jesus, sorry to hear about the BI. Now you got me really worried and second guessing Plasmas. Though, the EW at Best Buy might still keep my fears at bay. Then again, now that I think about it, who wants to keep returning their TV and also dealing with down time, etc.. ?

Anyway, onto the Input Lag. Are you saying that Plasmas don't have Input Lag ? Also, on that subject, I was reading somewhere that as long as your Video Game is plugged in via a digital connection that is the same resolution as the screen display (in our cases 1920x1080) then you experience no Input Lag. Supposedly Input Lag only happens when the TV needs to upscale, downscale, rescale the source input to match the screens output. This obviously would apply for ANY analog signal going into the TV, it would experience lag as well, cause it is getting converted as well.

Anyway, is any of this true ? Cause if so, then the ONLY time we need to worry about Input Lag is when we are playing our Old School games (pre digital output, pre HD consoles).
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post #25 of 64 Old 10-15-2012, 06:54 AM
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Yeah pretty much. All HDTV's will have display lag, plasmas and LCD. Only a CRT wouldn't. It's caused by upscaling and processing and that is why most HDTV's have a game mode. I really wouldn't worry about it on any high-end name brand set with a game mode. And yeah the display lag is highest with old school games but even then I don't notice it when playing NES. I play CoD and BF3 frequently on my LCD and do not notice any display lag and I do very well. I never use game mode either, just the standard calibrated settings.

Bill3508, that is exactly what I am afraid of. Back to looking at new LCD's lol.
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Yeah pretty much. All HDTV's will have display lag, plasmas and LCD. Only a CRT wouldn't. It's caused by upscaling and processing and that is why most HDTV's have a game mode. I really wouldn't worry about it on any high-end name brand set with a game mode. And yeah the display lag is highest with old school games but even then I don't notice it when playing NES. I play CoD and BF3 frequently on my LCD and do not notice any display lag and I do very well. I never use game mode either, just the standard calibrated settings.

Bill3508, that is exactly what I am afraid of. Back to looking at new LCD's lol.

So even when your going digital to digital, 1920x1080 to 1920x1080 there is Input Lag ? My point to this question is, if going into your TV that way, there is nothing that needs to be upscaled. Processing should be done on a screen level, not a incoming signal level and should be miniscule at that. So possibly there is no input lag if going into your TV digital to digital, 1920x1080 to 1920x1080 ?
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Yes, because the TV applies video processing and filters to the picture before it displays it even if it is digital to digital and the same resolution. Turning on game mode will eliminate most of the extra processing and filtering but there will still be some. Some TV's, LCD and Plasma, have more input lag than others. There is a thread about it here: http://www.avsforum.com/t/1131464/input-lag-wars-post-your-input-lag-results-of-your-lcd-display-here-for-reference
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Yes, because the TV applies video processing and filters to the picture before it displays it even if it is digital to digital and the same resolution. Turning on game mode will eliminate most of the extra processing and filtering but there will still be some. Some TV's, LCD and Plasma, have more input lag than others. There is a thread about it here: http://www.avsforum.com/t/1131464/input-lag-wars-post-your-input-lag-results-of-your-lcd-display-here-for-reference

Got'cha. Thanks for this clarification. Yea, I started a thread of my own on this, but a little more focused and less general. I seemed to learn over there what you are saying now. BUT then spread the question to asking/thinking, there has to be at least LESS lag if your signal is not getting upscaled or converted. Then also that spread into, how much lag does each "stage" / "process" in a TV path cause independently ?, to then equal the total lag for your particular settings and path at that particular time, etc...

Ha !! Buying a TV has seriously caused me more stress and thinking and time than when I bought my last car !! And house for that matter !! WTF ? It shouldn't be this hard or difficult.
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post #29 of 64 Old 10-17-2012, 01:22 PM - Thread Starter
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UPDATE:

So the Magnolia / Best Buy here in S.F. didn't have the Sony XBR950 series in yet when I first called (last week). Since I have narrowed my choices down to either a Plasma Panasonic VT50 series OR a LEDLCD Sony XBR950 series, I feel they both MUST be on display if I am going to take this seriously enough to bring all my testing stuff there and do a shoot-out between the two.

Anyway, got a call today from the salesman I will be dealing with there, that the Sony XBR950 JUST came in, and they will be setting it up today. In turn, Thursday I have scheduled to go there for this shoot-out. So I will keep you all posted.

Thanks again for the help everyone has given me in this thread :-)
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post #30 of 64 Old 10-17-2012, 01:42 PM
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That will be a great shoot-out, keep us posted.
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