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OLED Technology and Flat Panels General > 2015: Plasma's final year?
tgm1024's Avatar tgm1024 07:43 PM 04-15-2013
Quote:
Originally Posted by rogo View Post

You can improve a lot with tolerances. A lot.

But you can't offer ANSI like local-dimming with edge-lit no matter what you do. The zones will always be oddly shaped, even if they proliferation (long, thin rectangles that go to midscreen is the best you can achieve).

If you go to dual-axis edge-lighting, you can get closer to full array, but then you are better served by dropping all the light guides (and tolerance issues) and just going full array.

.....except for the thinness of the panel?

To be clear here: despite whether or not you're better served by going full array, is it possible to address all of the same areas of the screen via extra LED's and complicated light guide? Also I'm not sure I understand: Is the oddly shaped nature of the zones because the light guides get in each other's way?

tgm1024's Avatar tgm1024 07:52 PM 04-15-2013
Quote:
Originally Posted by vinnie97 View Post

AIUI (as I understand it?), first time I've seen that acro. smile.gif

LOL, sorry, my USENET habits die hard.

Quote:
The above conditionals are fun to think about, but I'd rather they burn the money on the next big thing, OLED. Also (alas), none of that rectifies the matter of diminishing quality with viewing angles

Perhaps not, especially because I'm really disappointed with the IPS I've seen, but in truth I'd like to know what made the sony S-PVA's so good off-angle.

In any case, my neighbor's older Sonymumble CFL-LCD looks incredible at even very slight angles L/R. Can't speak for vertical though.
Artwood's Avatar Artwood 10:04 PM 04-30-2013
Just remember folks who was talking about the Horrors of LCD and everyone acted like I was crazy and didn't know what i was talking about.

Face it folks--we're doomed to LCD that sucks!

Not Sharp Elite LCD but Wal-mart LCD--made in China--Edge Lit abomination style LCD that sucks!

When Wal-mart went down to 120 from 240 you knew that we were doomed to New World Order LCDs.

Panasonic bought the Pioneer patents for nothing!

Even if you get a 110 inch 4K LCD it will still suck like LCD sucks and DirecTV and Dish will DOWN rezz the 4K.

We had to wait 25 years after the muscle cars for car performance to return.

I'm thinking it will take about that long for OLED to get cheap!
vinnie97's Avatar vinnie97 10:39 PM 04-30-2013
Quote:
Originally Posted by Artwood View Post

New World Order LCDs.
Love it.
8mile13's Avatar 8mile13 07:48 AM 05-10-2013
PANASONIC

fiscal 2013 financial results

fiscal 2014 financial forecast

Quote:
TV/Panel business fiscal year 2013 -88.5 billion yen ( $1 = 83 yen)
TV/Panel business fiscal year 2014 -34.0 billion yen


http://panasonic.net/ir/release/2012/2012_full/financial_results_note_e.pdf

tgm1024's Avatar tgm1024 08:02 AM 05-10-2013
Quote:
Originally Posted by 8mile13 View Post

PANASONIC

fiscal 2013 financial results

fiscal 2014 financial forecast

Quote:
TV/Panel business fiscal year 2013 -88.5 billion yen ( $1 = 83 yen)
TV/Panel business fiscal year 2014 -34.0 billion yen


http://panasonic.net/ir/release/2012/2012_full/financial_results_note_e.pdf

You gotta hunt for the TV Business Division stuff, but interesting.

Auditor55's Avatar Auditor55 10:40 AM 05-11-2013
Quote:
Originally Posted by Artwood View Post

Just remember folks who was talking about the Horrors of LCD and everyone acted like I was crazy and didn't know what i was talking about.

Face it folks--we're doomed to LCD that sucks!

Not Sharp Elite LCD but Wal-mart LCD--made in China--Edge Lit abomination style LCD that sucks!

When Wal-mart went down to 120 from 240 you knew that we were doomed to New World Order LCDs.

Panasonic bought the Pioneer patents for nothing!

Even if you get a 110 inch 4K LCD it will still suck like LCD sucks and DirecTV and Dish will DOWN rezz the 4K.

We had to wait 25 years after the muscle cars for car performance to return.

I'm thinking it will take about that long for OLED to get cheap!

Plasma is all but dead, literally. There won't be any 4K Plasma sets, so what are avowed PDP lovers, who like yourself, despise LCD, going to do? I don't think PDP owners are going break down a purchase a technology they despise just for more resolution.
vinnie97's Avatar vinnie97 10:47 AM 05-11-2013
^Sit in our bunkers until 4k OLED arrives to put an end to the worldwide LCD holocaust (we may never come to the surface again)? biggrin.gif
Auditor55's Avatar Auditor55 10:55 AM 05-11-2013
Quote:
Originally Posted by vinnie97 View Post

^Sit in our bunkers until 4k OLED arrives to put an end to the worldwide LCD holocaust (we may never come to the surface again)? biggrin.gif

Isn't about time to give up on OLED?
tgm1024's Avatar tgm1024 03:09 PM 05-11-2013
Quote:
Originally Posted by Auditor55 View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by vinnie97 View Post

^Sit in our bunkers until 4k OLED arrives to put an end to the worldwide LCD holocaust (we may never come to the surface again)? biggrin.gif

Isn't about time to give up on OLED?

I can't even imagine what that means, so I'll not engage it further than to simply say "I can't even imagine what that means, so I'll not engage it further than to simply say "I can't even imagine what that means, so I'll not engage it further than to simply say "I can't even imagine what that means, so I'll not engage it further than to simply say "I can't even imagine what that means, so I'll not engage it further than to simply say...

But regarding your current sig: I love the idea of SED/FED. It's a technology we pretty much understood already, if you confine the meaning to phosphors excited by electron guns. smile.gif What's cooler than that? I think 6 million single-pixel CRTs was thought of independently by all of us at one point or another.
vinnie97's Avatar vinnie97 03:33 PM 05-11-2013
LOL
8mile13's Avatar 8mile13 08:28 AM 10-09-2013
CREATOR: gd-jpeg v1.0 (using IJG JPEG v62), default quality


By Reiji Murai

TOKYO | Tue Oct 8, 2013 11:19pm EDT

(Reuters) - Panasonic Corp will pull out of the plasma television panel business by the end of the financial year to March 2014, sources familiar with the situation told Reuters, marking a key milestone in the long-term decline of Japan's TV industry.

Panasonic had been widely expected to back out of the unprofitable business, but the exit comes sooner than predicted and underlines President Kazuhiro Tsuga's determination to weed out weak operations as he focuses on higher-margin products to end years of losses at the consumer electronics conglomerate.

Panasonic's TV division has been a major contributor to the electronics company's combined $15 billion (9 billion pounds) net loss in its two latest financial years. Its TV business posted an operating loss of 88.5 billion yen ($913 million) in the last financial year.

With the closure of its sole plasma panel factory in western Japan, Panasonic will book an impairment loss of more than 40 billion yen on the last remaining factory building in operation, the sources added. The company set aside 120 billion yen to cover restructuring costs at the start of the current financial year.

The move also signals the demise in Japan of a technology in which TV makers once invested heavily but has now been overtaken by advances in the liquid crystal display (LCD) business. Plasma display TVs accounted for less than 6 percent of global shipments in 2012, compared with 87 percent for LCD TVs, according to research firm DisplaySearch.

Squeezed by the strong yen in recent years, Japan's TV makers have also lost their innovative edge against nimbler rivals such as South Korea's Samsung Electronics Co Ltd, with deep resources to spend on research and development.

Sony Corp, Panasonic and Sharp Corp combined had a less than 20 percent share of the worldwide flat panel TV market by revenue. Samsung had a 27.7 percent share, and LG Electronics Inc had 15 percent.

Panasonic said in a statement on Wednesday that it continued to consider various options for the plasma display panel business but that nothing had been decided yet.

The several hundred employees in Panasonic's plasma operation are expected to be deployed to other parts of the company, the sources said.

The move is in line with the strategy adopted by company President Tsuga since he took charge in June 2012. Panasonic is trying to engineer a turnaround away from low-margin consumer electronics goods to products catering to automakers and other business clients.

Tsuga has warned that he would weed out any division that fails to meet a 5 percent operating margin goal within three years. Non-core assets like its healthcare unit are also being sold as he overhauls the company.

Panasonic agreed last month to sell the healthcare business, which makes blood sugar monitoring devices and electronic record-keeping systems, to U.S. private equity firm KKR & Co in a $1.67 billion deal.

Shares in Panasonic were down 0.2 percent at 913 yen in morning trade in Tokyo, in line with a 0.3 percent slip in the benchmark Nikkei average.

($1 = 96.9500 Japanese yen)
tgm1024's Avatar tgm1024 09:07 AM 10-09-2013

Sooner than I thought.  More stark than I thought.


rogo's Avatar rogo 02:59 PM 10-09-2013
So I believe this report but don't want to completely give up on the idea of an 11th-hour reprieve.

The plants in which the TVs are made all exist and should actually be depreciated. It's really not clear to me what accounting construct leads to Panasonic losing so much money selling them. Perhaps they'll find a buyer for the plant, although who that would be, how they would continue developing the product, etc. would remain tricky questions. And even if that occurred, I don't believe there is any long-term future for plasma televisions. I'm quite honestly surprised that 50" and up models are still even legal for sale in the EU given the shenanigans required to meet Energy Star in the U.S.

Here are the interesting questions assuming that production does end early next year (and, wow, that's soon):

1) How cheap do the last Panasonic's get? (My sense is not a lot cheaper, but perhaps they'll be some blowouts).

2) How long will Samsung keep making plasmas? (My sense is not a lot longer, because I believe they've really only done this to compete with Panasonic. That they matched/exceeded it performance-wise, though, suggests another few breaths of life in the product line.)

3) What exactly is a viable replacement that's comparable in cost on the LCD side? (I'm not trying to troll here and instead I'm serious. For $3000, it's been possible to buy videophile-level performance for a few years now at 65 inches.)
KOF's Avatar KOF 03:19 PM 10-09-2013
I don't understand it either. While diminishing, they still have buyers across the US and elsewhere. Why not try to pull out like what LG is doing? They have stopped R&D many years ago, yet are still happy to sell plasmas for good prices. This is something I would expect Samsung to follow as well. Are they trying to retool their previous plasma factories into something more lucrative? like solar cells? I don't get it.
tgm1024's Avatar tgm1024 04:15 PM 10-09-2013
Quote:
Originally Posted by KOF View Post

I don't understand it either. While diminishing, they still have buyers across the US and elsewhere. Why not try to pull out like what LG is doing? They have stopped R&D many years ago, yet are still happy to sell plasmas for good prices. This is something I would expect Samsung to follow as well. Are they trying to retool their previous plasma factories into something more lucrative? like solar cells? I don't get it.

 

We're lacking critical information to fully understand the rationale.  All the company-proprietary info regarding retooling cost, potential buyers, etc.


andy sullivan's Avatar andy sullivan 04:55 PM 10-09-2013
I think Panasonic is putting all of its eggs in the new technology they are planning on for OLED. They are convinced that the method they are developing will allow them to produce an affordable OLED display. If they are correct then they will rule the roost for a few years.
rogo's Avatar rogo 07:27 PM 10-09-2013
Quote:
Originally Posted by KOF View Post

I don't understand it either. While diminishing, they still have buyers across the US and elsewhere. Why not try to pull out like what LG is doing? They have stopped R&D many years ago, yet are still happy to sell plasmas for good prices. This is something I would expect Samsung to follow as well. Are they trying to retool their previous plasma factories into something more lucrative? like solar cells? I don't get it.

I doubt the plasma factory is good for anything but making plasmas. It will be (a) sold or (b) completely stripped and rebuilt for something else down the road.
Quote:
Originally Posted by andy sullivan View Post

I think Panasonic is putting all of its eggs in the new technology they are planning on for OLED. They are convinced that the method they are developing will allow them to produce an affordable OLED display. If they are correct then they will rule the roost for a few years.

I really wish you were right, but I doubt it. They cannot even know they have developed a method to produce OLEDs yet in anything beyond prototype quantities. And it appears the current strategy does not even involve Panasonic manufacturing displays on its own. As that strategy of outsourcing the panel making has yielded exactly one (marginally) profitable display maker ever* in the HDTV era, I don't see how this ends up with "roost ruling."



* I am assuming Vizio is marginally profitable. We know Sony has not turned any profit at all and relies on commodity panels. We have not seen Panasonic said word one about being profitable on the portion of its business that involves buying commodity panels, so we can safely assume they are not. Toshiba has essentially disappeared from the TV business relying on commodity panels.
Mixdoctor's Avatar Mixdoctor 07:48 PM 10-09-2013
My question would be : After Plasma ....Where is there revenue coming from? I think in the short term they are betting on 4K LED to hold them over. The problem with that is now they are competing where they have a big disadvantage. Instead of making their own panels like they do with plasma, they will have to buy them from someone else. Also, their current LED sets are not that great and there is a big gap between them and Samsung and even Sony in PQ. It will also be quite some time before OLED becomes inexpensive enough to really sell in large enough quantities to to bring in enough revenue for their TV business to thrive.
rogo's Avatar rogo 11:34 PM 10-09-2013
Revenue that is adding red ink is not revenue anyone will miss.
somelogin's Avatar somelogin 11:44 PM 10-09-2013
If companies such as Sony didn't have horrible quality control, maybe they would turn profits. Also, I bet Samsung will sell plasmas at east another couple years because they would have basically 90% of plasma lovers buying their tvs. Then finally not enough will want ANY plasma when OLED is cheaper and it will all die out totally. And LCDs will stay around a while just as a crazily cheap alternative to OLED, but probably a bunch of crap models.
Chronoptimist's Avatar Chronoptimist 12:39 AM 10-10-2013
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mixdoctor View Post

My question would be : After Plasma ....Where is there revenue coming from? I think in the short term they are betting on 4K LED to hold them over. The problem with that is now they are competing where they have a big disadvantage. Instead of making their own panels like they do with plasma, they will have to buy them from someone else. Also, their current LED sets are not that great and there is a big gap between them and Samsung and even Sony in PQ. It will also be quite some time before OLED becomes inexpensive enough to really sell in large enough quantities to to bring in enough revenue for their TV business to thrive.
Don't Panasonic produce their own IPS Alpha panels?
Mixdoctor's Avatar Mixdoctor 09:25 AM 10-10-2013
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chronoptimist View Post

Don't Panasonic produce their own IPS Alpha panels?


The Panasonic Insider mentioned that they source out their LCD panels.
rogo's Avatar rogo 12:09 AM 10-11-2013
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mixdoctor View Post

The Panasonic Insider mentioned that they source out their LCD panels.

I kinda thought Panasonic bought some panels from Japan Display, which I foolishly thought Panny owned part of but they don't.

It's not clear Panasonic has any ownership of any kind of LCD production, but even if it does, it's trivial.

Again, there is no history of making profit buying panels and slapping your name on them, with the possible exception of Vizio. But Vizio, even if it is actually profitable, is barely so. No one should try to replicate the strategy, which relies on (a) doing essentially no R&D at all (b) selling cheap and in large volume (c) rejecting any channel that requires a significant channel mark up.
Chronoptimist's Avatar Chronoptimist 10:23 AM 10-11-2013
Quote:
Originally Posted by rogo View Post

I kinda thought Panasonic bought some panels from Japan Display, which I foolishly thought Panny owned part of but they don't.
It's not clear Panasonic has any ownership of any kind of LCD production, but even if it does, it's trivial.
They do (or did?) own IPS Alpha, but I'm not sure what they're doing with it these days. They were originally only manufacturing smaller panels and sourcing large panels from other manufacturers.
Quote:
Originally Posted by https://www.semiconportal.com/en/archive/news/main-news/100701-panasonic-ips-alpha-lcd.html 
Panasonic Corp. has increased its ownership of IPS Alpha Technology, a manufacturer of large-sized LCDs based in Mobara, Chiba Prefecture, to 92% from 44.98% to securely position the company as the supplier of LCD panels for its LCD TVs.

IPS Alpha was originally a joint venture established by Hitachi, Panasonic (then Matsushita) and Toshiba in 2005. Panasonic (then Matsushita) purchased Toshiba's share in the company in March 2008, increasing its stake to 44.98%.

Before the deal on Wednesday, Hitachi Display, a Hitachi subsidiary, owned 50.02% of IPS Alpha's equity, but Panasonic had in practice been managing the company since April 2008 after it acquired Toshiba's share and invested 235 billion yen (US$2.3 billion*) in IPS Alpha's new Himeji fab. The Himeji fab started operation in April with a capacity of 405,000 panels (32-inch panels) per month using 8G glass substrates. The capacity will be ramped up to 810,000 panels by the end of March 2011, giving the Himeji fab the capability to supply almost ten million panels per year.

After the equity transfer, Hitachi will continue to own about 5% of the company.

Edit: http://panasonic.co.jp/corp/news/official.data/data.dir/en100823-3/en100823-3.html
Edit 2: Looks like their LCD production was transferred to Japan Display ownership in 2012.
Artwood's Avatar Artwood 02:26 AM 10-15-2013
Looks like Samsung is the last army fighting against the evil LCD forces. We are almost to the point of the LCD ONLY worldwide domination apocalyptic picture quality holocaust!

No matter how bad LCD sucks they're going to try to make us eat it! Who can take it? I can't!

The horror! The horror!
KidHorn's Avatar KidHorn 01:15 PM 10-16-2013
Quote:
Originally Posted by Artwood View Post

Looks like Samsung is the last army fighting against the evil LCD forces. We are almost to the point of the LCD ONLY worldwide domination apocalyptic picture quality holocaust!

No matter how bad LCD sucks they're going to try to make us eat it! Who can take it? I can't!

The horror! The horror!

Get a panny plasma while you still can and after 7 or so years when you need a new TV, OLED will be competitive with LCD. Problem solved.
markrubin's Avatar markrubin 01:26 PM 10-16-2013
yes but 7 years is a bit too long: try one year...or 2 ...

some members may continue to insist the world is ending with the inevitable demise of plasma technology but time and the state of the art march on: if you buy a plasma display now to insulate yourself from this new, evil technology, you may find you are stuck with old technology sooner than you would like

just my opinion of course...
vinnie97's Avatar vinnie97 01:35 PM 10-16-2013
I don't think the insulation is meant to protect from this new evil tech (OLED?), but instead from the backwards movement of LCD. wink.gif
markrubin's Avatar markrubin 01:38 PM 10-16-2013
^^^


right: I was referring to Art's posts about LCD: I would love to hear his thoughts on OLED
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