When I Purchased My 60" Kuro 4+ years ago... - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 68 Old 01-22-2013, 08:55 AM - Thread Starter
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I honestly said to myself: "Ok, $3100, I can justify this. Best flat panel on the market, I'll own it for at least 5 years, and I can always move it to another room or even the bedroom! Besides, in 5 years just imagine what I'll be able to get for $2500-$3,000!"

Well, we're not 5 years on, but a good four plus. And no, I didn't exactly grab the Kuro on closeout, but new from an authorized dealer, shipped, well before the "we're not making these anymore" announcement.

So, what can I get for $2500-$3,000, 5 years on?

Well, in the PDP world you can pick up the best there is for ~$2750. Nearly unbelievably though at this juncture, it offers inferior blacks, and is slightly ahead or behind in other significant picture quality arenas. Oh, and notable IR. Notable IR in 2013 for crikes sake?!

LED/LCD side: You have $2500-$3000 panels that have turned people- more than a few, actually- onto PDP, quite honestly. Who can say that ANY ~60" $2500 LED/LCD available today is a fantastic buy- especially when contrasted with much less expensive LCD/PDP offerings? I'm all ears.

On the flip-side, you have a pair of LED panels that compete with/slightly surpass in some regards/whatever the Kuro. The 65" Sony HX 929 and the 60" Sharp Elite. now check those street prices...$4500ish. Ouch. Really...ouch.

OLED: surely you're joking?

This isn't a Kuro hype session. It's not a pro PDP/LED soap box. It's really just a personal sob-session, lol, I suppose, sorry. I feel like I've waited a decent amount of time and (naively so, I guess) expected by now to be able to purchase a MEGA-performing ~$3,000 70" display- of ANY tech-variant. It simply is nowhere near that reality. Yep, Sharp is drowning themselves pushing out larger sets, but my goodness, I've given them extremely salient consideration and I simply cannot justify the cost on the image they offer (no offense to Sharp-owners, you have no idea how close I was/am to becoming one). I just can't. And I will say some of the smaller PDP's have seen some decent price reductions...doesn't matter much to a guy who is not interested in a 42 or 50" display, unfortunately.

I know: awful global economy, huge numbers have already upgraded to HD and won't be doing so for years, etc. I get it. But man, does it suck. I was holding out hope that 4K and OLED would ride shotgun in 2013 with larger, better-performing 1080 PDP/LCD's at notably stepped down price-points, but that seems to be just that: hope.

Is anyone else feeling my pain?

James

Actual phone call (see pic to left):

 

Tech (responding to laughter): "I'm sorry sir, did I miss something?"

Me: "Yeah, a case of Diet Mountain Dew walking across my living room."

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post #2 of 68 Old 01-22-2013, 11:02 AM
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"This isn't a Kuro hype session."

Well, it is.

"Is anyone else feeling my pain?"

Sort of, although if memory serves that price was the closeout deal since those TVs were going away.

To be clear, no LCD fab has been built since, and since 8G fabs don't really make TVs bigger than 60" efficiently -- at least the way they do things most of the time -- you were not going to get "mega big anything" nor see prices fall anywhere near as fast as they used to.

Oh, and the world economy nearly collapsing, that was going to matter so when you sob about your TV, it really does seem pretty irrelevant of you. If I had known that would prove as bad as it has, perhaps I'd have bought a Kuro, which I completely rejected as a serious option at the time.

You claim it's not a Kuro hype session, but it is. My 2012 plasma is so far ahead of your Kuro it's not funny. It's much brighter, it's much bigger, it rejects ambient light much better and it doesn't retain images. But before we have a discussion about this, let's just agree your Kuro is better and that PDP is a dying technology and that the Kuro was the T. Rex of it and leave it at that. I'm not interested in rehashing this argument anyway, so I'm conceding every single point and simply stating that everything I wrote in this paragraph that implies my TV is good is the rantings of someone with cognitive dissonance who is jealous of the almighty Kuro.

OK, whew, leaving that aside.

As for OLED, some of us told you so.

If we tell you it might be 5 years from here before that really big OLED is $2500-3000, will you believe us? It's not coming this year or next; that much we can say with certainty. Even in 2015, it seems like the really big one won't be anywhere near that price. So it seems safe to place it in 2016 or later, 4 years out and probably 5-6.

There is no difference in HDMI cables. If you can see the picture without visible dropouts or sparklies, the cable is working at 100%. No other cable will display a better version of that picture. You're simply wrong if you think there is a better digital cable than one that is already working. (Oh, and plasma didn't die because of logistics problems, nor does OLED ship in big boxes because it comes from Korea.)
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post #3 of 68 Old 01-22-2013, 11:30 AM
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No wonder Pioneer had to leave the TV business if they were selling the 60" panels for $3100. They were about 3x that price in Europe. The HX920 is priced considerably lower than a Kuro ever cost here. (HX900 was more like Kuro prices)

Now I understand why Americans seem to think Sony TVs are overpriced - it sounds like they are priced similarly in USA to the rest of the world, when other companies such as Pioneer, Sharp, and Panasonic are selling their displays are a significant discount.
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post #4 of 68 Old 01-22-2013, 11:37 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rogo View Post

"This isn't a Kuro hype session."

Well, it is.

"Is anyone else feeling my pain?"

Sort of, although if memory serves that price was the closeout deal since those TVs were going away.

To be clear, no LCD fab has been built since, and since 8G fabs don't really make TVs bigger than 60" efficiently -- at least the way they do things most of the time -- you were not going to get "mega big anything" nor see prices fall anywhere near as fast as they used to.

Oh, and the world economy nearly collapsing, that was going to matter so when you sob about your TV, it really does seem pretty irrelevant of you. If I had known that would prove as bad as it has, perhaps I'd have bought a Kuro, which I completely rejected as a serious option at the time.

You claim it's not a Kuro hype session, but it is. My 2012 plasma is so far ahead of your Kuro it's not funny. It's much brighter, it's much bigger, it rejects ambient light much better and it doesn't retain images. But before we have a discussion about this, let's just agree your Kuro is better and that PDP is a dying technology and that the Kuro was the T. Rex of it and leave it at that. I'm not interesting in rehashing this argument anyway, so I'm conceding every single point and simply stating that everything I wrote in this paragraph that implies my TV is good is the rantings of someone with cognitive dissonance who is jealous of the almighty Kuro.
You've got greater brightness (there is no lack of brightness for my primary use, though, and that is in nighttime viewing) and ambient light deflection, I'll concede that. biggrin.gif
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post #5 of 68 Old 01-22-2013, 11:40 AM - Thread Starter
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^ No, it really ISN'T (a Kuro hype session). It's clearly speaking towards an entire INDUSTRY that hasn't evolved terribly in a half decade- for reasons within and beyond their control. Pretty straightforward, really.

Choose any manufacture and price point you'd like. Look at image quality and price with some sense of objectivity. Yeah, that's what I thought.

"not interested in rehashing this argument anyway" yet you go on to spout absolute hyperbolic, inciting, nonsense like:

"my 2012 plasma (your VT50) is so far ahead of my kuro it's not even funny."

Ridiculous of course. Either display is extremely close in virtually every performance category...and yet MANY reviewers STILL choose the Kuro over the VT50. You know, guys who don't know what they're talking about like David Katzmaier at CNET who said he'll still take the 9G Kuro over the VT 50. Again, I'm certain he has no idea what he speaks of, has no experience and is just a shill for a company that no longer manufactures televisions. Go figure.

it's "much bigger".

Ridiculous of course. Yours is about 15% larger. No reasonable person would qualify that difference as "much bigger". Ask them. Bit larger? Sure.

"doesn't retain images"

Ridiculous of course and flat-out false. I've seen a half dozen of them with IR and there are- literally- DOZENS right on the official thread who will verify the same.

"brightness"?

Sorry, but I have the intelligence and, more imperatively, the experience to know that ambient light destroys image quality (on ANY screen), so I placed my display sensibly, no additional brightness needed, thanks. Sound quality: the room is a huge factor. Image quality: the room is a huge factor.

OLED? It was a rhetorical mention for comedy, that's it. I (or anyone else for that matter) do not need yet another wannabe Nostradamus of OLED proclaiming that reasonably-priced, large OLED panels are years off. Sorry, but, "duh" is the most fitting response. We have the internet and common sense too.

Seeing the LARGEST point of my rather concise post completely escaped you, I'll re-kick: DISPLAY quality and price, regardless of the tech-type has been less than progressive in the last half-decade. We DID get 3D though, I guess, lmao. rolleyes.gif

May I ask a favor? Read this sentence ALOUD to yourself and others and gauge the response:

"I'm not interesting in rehashing this argument anyway, so I'm conceding every single point and simply stating that everything I wrote in this paragraph that implies my TV is good is the rantings of someone with cognitive dissonance who is jealous of the almighty Kuro."

If you give me your paypal email address I will literally send you money to spare my sensibilities from a repeat of the above.

You've stated your case (which I'm certain you would have re-worded to the converse had I presented differently, lol): this is precisely how we should have expected the industry to evolve 5 years removed from 2008: price, image quality, the evolution of screen sizes. My contention is without merit and anyone who happens to agree with it is obviously as ignorant and naive as I am.

Now, we'll move along if you're agreeable.

James

Actual phone call (see pic to left):

 

Tech (responding to laughter): "I'm sorry sir, did I miss something?"

Me: "Yeah, a case of Diet Mountain Dew walking across my living room."

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post #6 of 68 Old 01-22-2013, 11:42 AM - Thread Starter
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BTW (rogo): your memory is serving you terribly. I (again) bought mine 5 months before the announcement they were leaving PDP and yes, I got the best deal around on a 6020. Most were around 35-$3600 at the time.

James

Actual phone call (see pic to left):

 

Tech (responding to laughter): "I'm sorry sir, did I miss something?"

Me: "Yeah, a case of Diet Mountain Dew walking across my living room."

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post #7 of 68 Old 01-22-2013, 11:45 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chronoptimist View Post

No wonder Pioneer had to leave the TV business if they were selling the 60" panels for $3100. They were about 3x that price in Europe. The HX920 is priced considerably lower than a Kuro ever cost here. (HX900 was more like Kuro prices)

Now I understand why Americans seem to think Sony TVs are overpriced - it sounds like they are priced similarly in USA to the rest of the world, when other companies such as Pioneer, Sharp, and Panasonic are selling their displays are a significant discount.


any facts/links that a 6020 was selling for $10,000 in Europe 8 months after their intro?

Sounds great though.

BTW: I think there are some reasonably priced Sony televisions. Matter of fact, their $1700 700 series is a pretty good value to me, actually. But near $5,000 for the 929 seems beyond expensive for what it offers.

James

Actual phone call (see pic to left):

 

Tech (responding to laughter): "I'm sorry sir, did I miss something?"

Me: "Yeah, a case of Diet Mountain Dew walking across my living room."

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post #8 of 68 Old 01-22-2013, 12:00 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by vinnie97 View Post

You've got greater brightness (there is no lack of brightness for my primary use, though, and that is in nighttime viewing) and ambient light deflection, I'll concede that. biggrin.gif

Yep, and it's on 8 to 14 hours a day in this room...with SE/S/SW exposure.




Better light deflection though? Sure. 5 years on, let's hope so.

James

Actual phone call (see pic to left):

 

Tech (responding to laughter): "I'm sorry sir, did I miss something?"

Me: "Yeah, a case of Diet Mountain Dew walking across my living room."

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post #9 of 68 Old 01-22-2013, 12:45 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mastermaybe View Post

any facts/links that a 6020 was selling for $10,000 in Europe 8 months after their intro?
No-one said anything about the price being 8 months after their introduction. It's hardly fair to compare the price of picking up a discounted set almost a year after release.

I assumed from how you were talking them up, you had a "9.5G" set, rather than a 6020, so that alone brings down the price about 30%. And the exchange rates back then were not what I thought, so you would have been looking at something around $5,000 for an LX6020 rather than a KRP600A/M. ($7,500 for a KRP)

And looking at the dates, the second generation Kuros were introduced May 2008 and Pioneer exited the TV market officially in February 2009, 9 months later. A number of retailers were informed - or were at least aware of this in advance (like being told no more were coming in) and chose to discount their stock early, before Pioneer had made an official announcement, as it was unclear whether they would continue warranty support for the displays.
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^ No, it really ISN'T (a Kuro hype session). It's clearly speaking towards an entire INDUSTRY that hasn't evolved terribly in a half decade- for reasons within and beyond their control. Pretty straightforward, really.
The LCD business seems to have stagnated on performance for the last couple of years, or even moved backwards due to the trend towards edge LED rather than full array backlit LED sets. This is because they were premium displays, and premium anything is having trouble selling in volume now. While we're still mostly stuck with Edge LED, we're seeing a number of improvements this year with things like IGZO.

We've seen consistent improvements year-on-year from the Plasma manufacturers - it's just that Pioneer was an outlier. People seem to expect everyone to have matched them within a year and then had four years of development on top of that. Pioneer made a number of performance sacrifices to get the black levels they had, which other companies such as Panasonic have not been willing to make (such as gradation) and performance has been focused on other areas in recent years - such as motion handling - as 3D required it.
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Ridiculous of course and flat-out false. I've seen a half dozen of them with IR and there are- literally- DOZENS right on the official thread who will verify the same.
I think his point is that it was a much bigger issue on the Kuros than most Plasmas sold today. And he would be right.
Quote:
Originally Posted by mastermaybe View Post

Sorry, but I have the intelligence and, more imperatively, the experience to know that ambient light destroys image quality (on ANY screen), so I placed my display sensibly, no additional brightness needed, thanks.
The Kuros dim the image by more than 50% when going from a small window pattern to a full field, and suck down hundreds of watts when doing so. They're dim displays, even when compared to other Plasmas.
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^Not really, I get a sense that IR is actually more a concern today when reading some of the threads (of course the complaints are always the loudest). Definitely no worse than the Pioneer 9G.
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post #11 of 68 Old 01-22-2013, 01:52 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chronoptimist View Post

No-one said anything about the price being 8 months after their introduction. It's hardly fair to compare the price of picking up a discounted set almost a year after release.

I assumed from how you were talking them up, you had a "9.5G" set, rather than a 6020, so that alone brings down the price about 30%. And the exchange rates back then were not what I thought, so you would have been looking at something around $5,000 for an LX6020 rather than a KRP600A/M. ($7,500 for a KRP)

And looking at the dates, the second generation Kuros were introduced May 2008 and Pioneer exited the TV market officially in February 2009, 9 months later. A number of retailers were informed - or were at least aware of this in advance (like being told no more were coming in) and chose to discount their stock early, before Pioneer had made an official announcement, as it was unclear whether they would continue warranty support for the displays.
The LCD business seems to have stagnated on performance for the last couple of years, or even moved backwards due to the trend towards edge LED rather than full array backlit LED sets. This is because they were premium displays, and premium anything is having trouble selling in volume now. While we're still mostly stuck with Edge LED, we're seeing a number of improvements this year with things like IGZO.

We've seen consistent improvements year-on-year from the Plasma manufacturers - it's just that Pioneer was an outlier. People seem to expect everyone to have matched them within a year and then had four years of development on top of that. Pioneer made a number of performance sacrifices to get the black levels they had, which other companies such as Panasonic have not been willing to make (such as gradation) and performance has been focused on other areas in recent years - such as motion handling - as 3D required it.
I think his point is that it was a much bigger issue on the Kuros than most Plasmas sold today. And he would be right.
The Kuros dim the image by more than 50% when going from a small window pattern to a full field, and suck down hundreds of watts when doing so. They're dim displays, even when compared to other Plasmas.


Ummmm, wow, where to begin.

first, the 6020 is hardly chopped liver. Outside of some grey scale and finer color calibration, a calibrated 6020 measured up VERY well vs the Elite and KRP. Identical? No. Very, very, close? Yes.

How do I know? Because I witnessed ALL THREE, calibrated, side by side. I'm sure you've done the same and just don't remember.

The second order of business: I'm comparing models at or near the same precise time of their model-life- I can assure you there was zero talk of pioneer walking when I bought mine. End of.

The "improvements" on PDP- manu to manu- on have been consistent alright: consistently marginal and many times completely unrelated to image quality. Price has fared a bit better, though.

No reasonable person expected other manus to "match" Pioneer within a year. Again, ridiculous. It's been a half-decade...note and understand the distinction.

IR is/was worse on Kuros than ANY modern plasma? Absolutely patently false and, well, never mind. Brightness? Covered.

IGZO helping/bettering livingroom/theater sized displays? Sure. Let me know when and where and I'll be there.

Thanks for pretty much bolstering my contention on LCD/LED tech...we'd agree that it's been stagnate- I'll just go back a couple more years, lol. I'd call the Elites and XBRs premium though...and they are being manufactured and sold, believe it or not. With image quality that is below, on par with, or slightly beyond what was available 5 years ago.

James

Actual phone call (see pic to left):

 

Tech (responding to laughter): "I'm sorry sir, did I miss something?"

Me: "Yeah, a case of Diet Mountain Dew walking across my living room."

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post #12 of 68 Old 01-22-2013, 01:54 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by vinnie97 View Post

^Not really, I get a sense that IR is actually more a concern today when reading some of the threads (of course the complaints are always the loudest). Definitely no worse than the Pioneer 9G.

Absolutely 100% correct. Ask ANYONE who has owned both.

Full disclosure: I WANTED to dish my 6020 for a VT50 and simply could not after failing to reason away the IR on a 5 year newer display. I am not alone.

James

Actual phone call (see pic to left):

 

Tech (responding to laughter): "I'm sorry sir, did I miss something?"

Me: "Yeah, a case of Diet Mountain Dew walking across my living room."

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post #13 of 68 Old 01-22-2013, 02:09 PM
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as a kuro owner we have to acknowledge the red push that develops as our sets age.

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post #14 of 68 Old 01-22-2013, 02:11 PM
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In the real world -- the one in which most of us live -- ambient light is a thing that exists. It happens. My TV handles it pretty darned well. I seriously have no idea what's going on in that photo, but it sure wouldn't be acceptable in my family room nor, I suspect, that of many other people with normal, mixed-use rooms.

My 17% larger TV fits in fine, however and a 60" would be unacceptably small to me.

Oh, and as for brightness (and this one is to Vinnie), I hear you on that. I watch football during the day however. It's hard to replace brightness during the day. In fact, it's the one thing I wish I could have even more brightness for.

Finally -- and I need to be clear on this -- my television does not experience any image retention. This is not some made-up story or cognitive dissonance. I have actually tried to get images to "persist" and have failed miserably. The only time the TV has retained anything was during its calibration, when it retained some menu imagery for about 10-15 minutes. Other than that, not one thing in ~6 months of us. Not a logo, not a menu, not a channel grid, not a game-console icon, not a thing.

I realize this irritating fact flies in the face of some propaganda campaign. But I have simply no image retention to speak of and have stated such many times on the forum. While I have discussed this with others and acknowledged some of them might have a significant problem, the evidence this is widespread is actually scant and no real data has been gathered about which picture modes have been used.

There is no difference in HDMI cables. If you can see the picture without visible dropouts or sparklies, the cable is working at 100%. No other cable will display a better version of that picture. You're simply wrong if you think there is a better digital cable than one that is already working. (Oh, and plasma didn't die because of logistics problems, nor does OLED ship in big boxes because it comes from Korea.)
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^I can imagine (daytime brightness requirements)! Chrono seems to be the lone wolf on the Kuro IR. It is probably not statistically significant for either brand unless one tries hard to abuse the panel.
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post #16 of 68 Old 01-22-2013, 02:35 PM
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OP

sorry it did not all work out as you planned:

you still have one of the finest displays out there and you got it at a bargain price: it will be hard to beat that act

not so bad really....

please take the high road in every post
if you see a problematic post, please do not quote it or respond to it: report it to the mods to handle
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post #17 of 68 Old 01-22-2013, 03:28 PM - Thread Starter
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^ ???

There was really no "plan", per se, just what I thought was a reasonable expectation 5 years down the line.

I'm extremely grateful that I'm fortunate to own a tv that is still fantastically relevant- even better really- than 97% of what's available today, I just find it a bit unfortunate, is all.

I don't necessarily know where I would have thought an 08' Kuro would rank amongst 2012 displays, prolly still solidly in the upper third/quarter, I suppose, but to have just a few matching/slightly exceeding it and two of those near $5,000...nope, didn't anticipate that at all

James.

Actual phone call (see pic to left):

 

Tech (responding to laughter): "I'm sorry sir, did I miss something?"

Me: "Yeah, a case of Diet Mountain Dew walking across my living room."

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post #18 of 68 Old 01-22-2013, 03:36 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rogo View Post

In the real world -- the one in which most of us live -- ambient light is a thing that exists. It happens. My TV handles it pretty darned well. I seriously have no idea what's going on in that photo, but it sure wouldn't be acceptable in my family room nor, I suspect, that of many other people with normal, mixed-use rooms.

My 17% larger TV fits in fine, however and a 60" would be unacceptably small to me.

Oh, and as for brightness (and this one is to Vinnie), I hear you on that. I watch football during the day however. It's hard to replace brightness during the day. In fact, it's the one thing I wish I could have even more brightness for.

Finally -- and I need to be clear on this -- my television does not experience any image retention. This is not some made-up story or cognitive dissonance. I have actually tried to get images to "persist" and have failed miserably. The only time the TV has retained anything was during its calibration, when it retained some menu imagery for about 10-15 minutes. Other than that, not one thing in ~6 months of us. Not a logo, not a menu, not a channel grid, not a game-console icon, not a thing.

I realize this irritating fact flies in the face of some propaganda campaign. But I have simply no image retention to speak of and have stated such many times on the forum. While I have discussed this with others and acknowledged some of them might have a significant problem, the evidence this is widespread is actually scant and no real data has been gathered about which picture modes have been used.

Trust me, you have no idea how much I want to disbelieve the IR deal with the VT50...but we both visit the same official thread cluttered with dozens who say otherwise. Break in slides, no break in slides. Abused, kid gloves, I'm read it all. I've seen it with my own eyes in two units, for pete's sake. Who to believe?

Yep, I'll take the 5" too, gladly. But it's not terribly significant.

Brightness? A non issue with either unit when logically installed.

None of this changes my disappointment (not disbelief or failure to understand) of the price points, performance, and quality large screens available in 2013.


James

Actual phone call (see pic to left):

 

Tech (responding to laughter): "I'm sorry sir, did I miss something?"

Me: "Yeah, a case of Diet Mountain Dew walking across my living room."

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post #19 of 68 Old 01-22-2013, 03:48 PM
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Your 6020 is not even in the top three Kuro models.

Dozens who say otherwise on IR. Maybe you should do the math. What percent is that? How does that compare?
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post #20 of 68 Old 01-22-2013, 04:23 PM
 
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Dozens out of how many thousands?
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post #21 of 68 Old 01-22-2013, 05:13 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ebernazz View Post

Your 6020 is not even in the top three Kuro models.

Dozens who say otherwise on IR. Maybe you should do the math. What percent is that? How does that compare?

Nice try with the juvenile (and worse, empty) "do the math" quip.

That math would require more information of course, so it's a bit "undoable".

Yes, dozens. Vs what? The relatively small number on the official thread here? I'd say it's significant enough to call it "non existent" laughable.

6020 not in the top 3 Kuros? Well, outside of the 9G Elite and KRP I'm not aware of all these other Kuros that are so superior, but, sigh, fine. Lmao- point still remains that they were made 5 years ago, so thanks. But if it makes you feel better; I DID own a 9G Elite too for 9 months. Good grief.

James

Actual phone call (see pic to left):

 

Tech (responding to laughter): "I'm sorry sir, did I miss something?"

Me: "Yeah, a case of Diet Mountain Dew walking across my living room."

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post #22 of 68 Old 01-22-2013, 05:16 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by vinnie97 View Post

Dozens out of how many thousands?

Again, dozens on the relatively small official thread on this site...that I'VE READ. how many more exist in the thread? No clue.

How many panels total vs total panels with IR that never show up on the thread? Very difficult to know of course.

How many with IR that some just don't notice/care enough to complain about/even know it as "IR".

Again, no clue but I'm certain it far exceeds "dozens".

I've seen two personally, both exhibited IR...much to my dismay.

Must be pure dumb luck.

James

Actual phone call (see pic to left):

 

Tech (responding to laughter): "I'm sorry sir, did I miss something?"

Me: "Yeah, a case of Diet Mountain Dew walking across my living room."

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post #23 of 68 Old 01-22-2013, 05:34 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by vinnie97 View Post

Dozens out of how many thousands?

What we see here on AVS is called "confirmation bias", the belief that our own experiences mirror reality. We hear a small number of people report a problem and conclude, "There is a problem." This is not always wrong, of course, but it's often wrong. People without the problem have no reason to report, 'I have no problem" and the tens of thousands of posts that don't report an explicit problem are not seen as counter-factuals, they are simply ignored as no evidence of anything. Of course, they are evidence of a lack of problem, but they are not seen that way.

This situation occurred with the Sharp Elite in many ways as well and, really, many high-end products.

I can only add that I have access to a couple of local stores that stock the product and none of their Panasonic displays exhibit any image retention issues either.

And, finally, I can tell you that putting your TV out of harm's way vis a vis light is not actually a replacement for a bright image. I know many AVSers think it is, but there are as many of us (or so it seems from the projector forums) who disagree. A bright image has its own satisfaction.

I'd rather have an even brighter image than I do. That doesn't mean I need retina-searing brightness or even have much use for that. And most LCDs can produce brightness that is useless, except for daytime viewing. But there is something to that brightness that my plasma lacks and that the Kuro lacks even more.

I suppose on that dimension, I share the disappointment about the state of the art. Nothing in even the ZT60 addresses the fundamental weaknesses of plasma technology. It is -- at best -- a slightly better VT50. On the LCD side, slightly better uniformity might be in the offing, but off-axis viewing isn't apparently better at all in 2013. Color reproduction is better for stuff that use a gamut no current material is recorded under (see Triluminos). Fake local dimming is in, real local dimming is essentially gone. That means super-high intrascene contrast isn't going to be a real part of LCD.

And, besides, you can still barely buy an LCD over 60" at all. All the reasonably priced one have limited features and middle-range picture quality. The high-end sets are really overpriced for what you get.

The biggest promise of "OLED at LCD prices" remains this: The democratization of great picture quality. OLED can't survive as a high-end niche product. It simply won't work economically. That's good news because it means the price target isn't Sony's HX9xx line but rather something like Samsung's x8000 series -- and ultimately lower. If you could have picture quality that exceeds the Sharp Elite for Samsung x8000 money, pretty much all of us here who could afford it would buy it -- especially if we could get our chosen size.

Sadly, we are 4 years away -- if not more.

There is no difference in HDMI cables. If you can see the picture without visible dropouts or sparklies, the cable is working at 100%. No other cable will display a better version of that picture. You're simply wrong if you think there is a better digital cable than one that is already working. (Oh, and plasma didn't die because of logistics problems, nor does OLED ship in big boxes because it comes from Korea.)
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post #24 of 68 Old 01-22-2013, 06:44 PM - Thread Starter
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"Confirmation bias"?

Precisely. But what you fail to realize is that it's indiscriminate. You are doing the same, you realize?

I'm pretty much done with the "brightness" and "IR" nonsense...either are really OT and more importantly, no ones' minds are going to be changed: you see IR or you don't. Your panel is plenty bright or it's not.

The core contention remains: 5 years removed from 2008, image quality has advanced little, prices- especially so on "hi end" sets that perform comparably to models 3-5 years old- have remained the same or higher, and there's little to nothing in larger screen sizes that's terribly compelling at what most would call remotely affordable.

We likely agree on many of the reasons why, even if we differ on the degree/extent of the aforementioned.

Perhaps 4k and OLED will somehow spur about 70/80"+ high(er) performing $2500-$3,000 1080 panels but I'm very skeptical.

James

Actual phone call (see pic to left):

 

Tech (responding to laughter): "I'm sorry sir, did I miss something?"

Me: "Yeah, a case of Diet Mountain Dew walking across my living room."

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post #25 of 68 Old 01-22-2013, 06:54 PM
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I guess I was just unlucky to end up with a Panasonic 65VT30 that has pretty bad IR? I accept that it is possible that the number of sets with the problem is small, but I do wonder if reports are smaller than they would otherwise be if all people were as picky as I am. Still, if there are sets with a tendency to resist IR (as rogo claims) even for watchers of network tv, or sports, or gamers with bright and static UI elements, it would sure have been nice to get one of those. Alas.

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Quote:
Originally Posted by mastermaybe View Post

Again, dozens on the relatively small official thread on this site...that I'VE READ. how many more exist in the thread? No clue.

How many panels total vs total panels with IR that never show up on the thread? Very difficult to know of course.

How many with IR that some just don't notice/care enough to complain about/even know it as "IR".

Again, no clue but I'm certain it far exceeds "dozens".

I've seen two personally, both exhibited IR...much to my dismay.

Must be pure dumb luck.

James
I was referring to Pioneer because that's the panel manuf. to which I thought ebernazz was referring, but I clearly misinterpreted. His was a Panasonic defense, fair enough! Ya'll continue.
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post #27 of 68 Old 01-22-2013, 07:53 PM
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How do I know? Because I witnessed ALL THREE, calibrated, side by side. I'm sure you've done the same and just don't remember.
The Elite and 6020 were barely any different. In fact they were only sold as a single model outside USA if I recall correctly.

The monitors went considerably brighter - same peak brightness, much less ABL. The 9.5G sets also had better black levels.
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The second order of business: I'm comparing models at or near the same precise time of their model-life- I can assure you there was zero talk of pioneer walking when I bought mine. End of.
Maybe not publicly, but many retailers started discounting the sets heavily weeks before the official announcement when they were told they would not be getting any more stock in.
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The "improvements" on PDP- manu to manu- on have been consistent alright: consistently marginal and many times completely unrelated to image quality. Price has fared a bit better, though.
Panasonic has consistently doubled efficiency and contrast for at least the last couple of years, and we will shortly see if that is the case again this year. (I expect it will be) They have greatly increased the number of subfields, and now have over 30,000 steps of gradation. (At least in marketing talk)

Samsung has made similar strides, with a Plasma that is said to rival LCD brightness being released this year.

Pioneer never had to address their motion handling problems to add 3D support, or try and compete with a lot of the other features that televisions are required to have these days.
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IR is/was worse on Kuros than ANY modern plasma? Absolutely patently false and, well, never mind. Brightness? Covered.
They are the only Plasma I’ve ever had permanent image retention (burn in) with, from one gameplay session at a low brightness. It faded but never left.
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Thanks for pretty much bolstering my contention on LCD/LED tech...we'd agree that it's been stagnate- I'll just go back a couple more years, lol. I'd call the Elites and XBRs premium though...and they are being manufactured and sold, believe it or not. With image quality that is below, on par with, or slightly beyond what was available 5 years ago.
The Elites and XBRs are far better than the Kuros in a number of areas. The Elites do have color decoding issues though. But the Kuros also had a huge list of problems too - black level is really the only area where they excelled.
Quote:
Originally Posted by mr. wally View Post

as a kuro owner we have to acknowledge the red push that develops as our sets age.
I would argue that they had a red push from day one, and it just gets worse as they age. I suspect - and I don’t have any way of verifying this - that what is actually happening is a loss of contrast, which simply exposes the issue more.

Most phosphor-based displays seem to suffer from this, as the driving voltage needs to be increased as they age, and it seems manufacturers either err on the side of caution, or their estimations are completely wrong. This was a big issue with CRTs too. (Black level rising with age)
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In the real world -- the one in which most of us live -- ambient light is a thing that exists. It happens. My TV handles it pretty darned well. I seriously have no idea what's going on in that photo, but it sure wouldn't be acceptable in my family room nor, I suspect, that of many other people with normal, mixed-use rooms.
Unless there is something black outside his window, the shot appears to have been taken at night. And black walls with massively oversized gear for the room would be unacceptable in my home as well.
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Oh, and as for brightness (and this one is to Vinnie), I hear you on that. I watch football during the day however. It's hard to replace brightness during the day. In fact, it's the one thing I wish I could have even more brightness for.
Maybe check out the new Samsung models this year if you want to stick to Plasma but want more brightness. I do wonder how much real-world brightness improvements they have made though, once the ABL kicks in.
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Originally Posted by mastermaybe View Post

Brightness? A non issue with either unit when logically installed.
It has nothing to do with installation. The Kuros were power hungry and had a very aggressive ABL as a result. Your model in particular will dim the screen by over 50% when it is sent a bright image. And the Kuros automatically dim the screen when they detect any static images being displayed. (Channel logos etc)
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Originally Posted by rogo View Post

And most LCDs can produce brightness that is useless, except for daytime viewing.
Depends on your own use, but having the extra brightness required for daytime viewing is a big deal in my opinion. It mostly only applies to weekend or early-evening viewing (games rather than film for me, as I prefer to watch film in the dark) but the flexibility helps. Right now I only have to go to 4/10 on the backlight but in summer that 10/10 option is really nice.
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Originally Posted by rogo View Post

But there is something to that brightness that my plasma lacks and that the Kuro lacks even more.
This is the ABL, and one of the main reasons I prefer LCD - they don’t have it. (Though some have an optional one if you want it for some reason)

I actually tend to watch films in a completely dark room most of the time on my HX900, so my brightness requirements are lower than most people actually want - I typically watch at projector reference levels too, and those are half that of flat panels. But I still can’t deal with Plasmas because even at those levels, the ABL is still in effect and they dim the image further. (By more than 50% with the Kuros)

This is my biggest concern about OLED actually. They are probably going to behave like a Plasma in that regard.
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post #28 of 68 Old 01-22-2013, 08:25 PM
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So the Kuro was best ever to many. I get it and that's great. It was an awesome display, I agree. The only Pioneer I owned was long before Kuro, the 5071 and boy I was proud of that display. I had it in my bedroom when I replaced it a several years ago.

Talk about a deal I sold it to a friend of mine and the bello stand for $300. She loves it and when I visit I'm still so impressed with that display. Not seeing it everyday reminds me how great Pioneer was. Unsurpassed quality at least with this set and ahhh burn-in, really? Never and I never worried about what I watched. Just like a tv should be. wink.gif

I auditioned a 6020 in my house and at the time it was really nice but the overpriced 55 Sony XBR8 just did it for me. It was my move to LCD and I have not returned.

The XBR8 was replaced by the 70 Elite. To me it's the best display I have ever owned. It really is awesome. Overpriced like the Sony? Maybe but the XBR8 makes a great bedroom display now!

So let's assume the Kuro was the best ever? By what percentage over the Elite or Panasonic plasma's today? 50 Percent? 20 percent? I say no more than 5 percent. I remember them well and as stated I can appreciate a plasma as well,

I'll take 70inch and the 5 percent less picture quality over the much smaller screen ( I dont think Kuro is better but keeping the conversation cordial) The jump to 70 has been incredible. That far outweighs any small percentage that the Kuro had in improved pic quality. Does that make the Kuro the best? Okay sure but it's too small to be considered a center piece of a high end theater these days where projection is not possible.

I'd push it to bedroom and continue to love it and go bigger! The folks that disagree in bigger perhaps don't even have surround sound and that amazes me in a forum like this.

If you tell me it's 50 percent better to you I won't be able to take you seriously.

The Pioneer was something in its day. There are just better options now IMO.

Rick

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post #29 of 68 Old 01-22-2013, 09:21 PM
 
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I don't like the off-axis tradeoffs on the Sharp, soz. If I was the only one watching and in dead center and had the coin, mebbe. Funny, Kuro was my turn away from LCD and not looking back.
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post #30 of 68 Old 01-22-2013, 09:25 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by vinnie97 View Post

I don't like the off-axis tradeoffs on the Sharp, soz. If I was the only one watching and in dead center and had the coin, mebbe. Funny, Kuro was my turn away from LCD and not looking back.
And yet most people buying high-end, expensive displays don't watch them anywhere other than the couch directly in front of the TV. I don't know why people would spend so much on a display they aren't even going to be sitting in front of.
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