Do port savers reduce image quality? - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 18 Old 01-27-2013, 01:22 PM - Thread Starter
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Do port savers reduce image quality to the tv? I am thinking of picking up some 270 degree male to female HDMI port savers for cable management purposes (from my blu-ray player to my tv) but am wondering if it's better to just have the HDMI cable run direct?

The port saver I will order is monoprice product ID #3850

Here is an AVS members set up I am thinking of duplicating but it seems like all those connectors would reduce quality?

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post #2 of 18 Old 01-27-2013, 01:24 PM
 
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If there was any signal loss, you would simply see HDMI re-handshakes, so no, as long as the connections are solid, there should be no detectable loss in signal quality.
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post #3 of 18 Old 01-27-2013, 01:44 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Raider4010 View Post

Do port savers reduce image quality to the tv? I am thinking of picking up some 270 degree male to female HDMI port savers for cable management purposes (from my blu-ray player to my tv) but am wondering if it's better to just have the HDMI cable run direct? The port saver I will order is monoprice product ID #3850 Here is an AVS members set up I am thinking of duplicating but it seems like all those connectors would reduce quality?

That's my picture - i've been running these adapters on my GT50 and on my G10, and also on several other Plasmas that i've installed for others and there is no reduction in picture quality at all. HDMI is purely digital so you're either getting the signal or you're not - there is no middle ground like with analog cables. If there is a problem with a cable or adapter, it will cause momentary loss of signal or signal breakup but i have yet to have any problems using various HDMI adapters and port savers. Not a single issue.

And in response to a few guys who insisted that they do reduce PQ, i ran a test with 10 of them for about a week and the picture was rock solid and perfect with no dropouts or degradation or anything:

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^Fun experiment. biggrin.gif
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post #5 of 18 Old 01-28-2013, 12:08 AM
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Randy and Vinnie are of course correct.

On HDMI, the rule is very simple:

Unless you actually see visible image degradation -- sparklies or dropouts -- there is no subtle degradation going on. Anyone who claims there is is simply lying, mistaken, delusional or wrong.

There is no difference in HDMI cables. If you can see the picture without visible dropouts or sparklies, the cable is working at 100%. No other cable will display a better version of that picture. You're simply wrong if you think there is a better digital cable than one that is already working.
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post #6 of 18 Old 01-28-2013, 12:44 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rogo View Post

Randy and Vinnie are of course correct.

On HDMI, the rule is very simple:

Unless you actually see visible image degradation -- sparklies or dropouts -- there is no subtle degradation going on. Anyone who claims there is is simply lying, mistaken, delusional or wrong.

But what about AQ and Monster with their super-duper HDMI cables?
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post #7 of 18 Old 01-28-2013, 11:20 AM
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Originally Posted by hoozthatat View Post

But what about AQ and Monster with their super-duper HDMI cables?
wink.gif

I'm actually a big fan of consumer products that offer little-to-no benefit but that people love and can feel good about -- and that cost more. You know, like more expensive cars or fancy jeans or whatever. In many cases, those things drive our economy and I love our economy. And people in BMWs or Jimmy Choos or whatever are usually really happy about having spent the money on them because they love driving them / wearing them / showing them off.

Monster Cable just makes me angry. They basically deceive people into buying overpriced cables with stories that are often basically fictitious. And no one turns on their TV and goes, "Wow, I feel really good about my $60 Monster Cable interconnect."

Monster does create a lot of positive economic activity for salespeople, dealers, etc. so I wouldn't consider them evil or anything.

Oh, and I know you were just having fun, but you let me go off on a rant.

(Incidentally, I just give my cable dollars to Monoprice, which seems to ask no real premium over parts plus a decent profit percentage and their cables just work fine.)

There is no difference in HDMI cables. If you can see the picture without visible dropouts or sparklies, the cable is working at 100%. No other cable will display a better version of that picture. You're simply wrong if you think there is a better digital cable than one that is already working.
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post #8 of 18 Old 01-28-2013, 02:37 PM - Thread Starter
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Thanks Randy for clearing this up! I have ordered 98 port-savers to connect my blu-ray player to the TV.
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post #9 of 18 Old 01-29-2013, 09:24 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hoozthatat View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by rogo View Post

Randy and Vinnie are of course correct.

On HDMI, the rule is very simple:

Unless you actually see visible image degradation -- sparklies or dropouts -- there is no subtle degradation going on. Anyone who claims there is is simply lying, mistaken, delusional or wrong.

But what about AQ and Monster with their super-duper HDMI cables?
wink.gif
I've read somewhere (maybe on the Internet?) that Monster cables aren't fully compatible with my Bose equipment. Is there some sort of adapter that can help that issue? tongue.gif


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post #10 of 18 Old 01-29-2013, 10:08 AM
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Originally Posted by olyteddy View Post

I've read somewhere (maybe on the Internet?) that Monster cables aren't fully compatible with my Bose equipment. Is there some sort of adapter that can help that issue? tongue.gif

Yeah it's called the "avoidabose." Check mono price.

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post #11 of 18 Old 01-30-2013, 08:52 AM
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Originally Posted by rogo View Post

Monster Cable just makes me angry. They basically deceive people into buying overpriced cables with stories that are often basically fictitious.

FURIOUS for me.

Please oh please let there be a massive class-action smack down of Monster, AudioQuest, and similar mooks.

Monster even had on their packaging words to the effect of "for 240-480 Hz tv's for smooth motion video". Note the dinky asterisks. They put at the bottom of the package small words to the effect "not yet available" or something. DO YOU SUPPOSE THAT'S OK YOU UNBELIEVABLE CRIMINALS?????????????



I posted some time ago a link to the AudioQuest "Diamon" $1099 1 meter (!!!!) HDMI cable on the Best Buy site, because the reviews were hilarious!

They seem to have pulled the 1m "Diamond" cable. But Amazon has it. Read THEIR reviews.

http://www.amazon.com/AudioQuest-Diamond-1m-Braided-Cable/dp/B003CT08E4

And get this: I asked a BB grunt once "Have you actually sold one of those $1099 AudioQuest 1m cables?" And his response was an ENTHUSIASTIC "Oh Yeah!", with his head nodding----hard to describe in text, but his inflection was indicating "of course----it's great!"

@#$%ers.


Sample review Quote from Amazon's reviews of that AudioQuest monstrosity:
Quote:
Don't get me wrong. This cable offers adequate performance for something in this price range, but if you want truly high end performance, you really need to be prepared to spend a little more for the better quality. There are a lot of excellent products available but for only $12,000 for a three foot cable
Quote:
Best bang for your buck, December 26, 2011
By
Pete S. - See all my reviews
This review is from: AudioQuest Diamond 1m (3.2 feet) Braided HDMI Cable (Electronics)
At a thrifty $333.77 per foot, this cable packs a big punch for those who don't want to drop all their cash on ludicrously overpriced A/V equipment. This cable features a dragon heartstring core for truly enhancing the binary logic matrix. Tests on my system show that I'm even getting 2's and 3's in my audiovisual datastream buffer, which is typically only attained by expensive high-end theater systems.


(etc.) Try not to die laughing!

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post #12 of 18 Old 01-30-2013, 08:55 AM
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Originally Posted by RandyWalters View Post

That's my picture - i've been running these adapters on my GT50 and on my G10, and also on several other Plasmas that i've installed for others and there is no reduction in picture quality at all. HDMI is purely digital so you're either getting the signal or you're not - there is no middle ground like with analog cables. If there is a problem with a cable or adapter, it will cause momentary loss of signal or signal breakup but i have yet to have any problems using various HDMI adapters and port savers. Not a single issue.

And in response to a few guys who insisted that they do reduce PQ, i ran a test with 10 of them for about a week and the picture was rock solid and perfect with no dropouts or degradation or anything:


Randy, thanks for one of the best pictures I've seen in a long time around here. Truly AWESOME.

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post #13 of 18 Old 01-30-2013, 02:43 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tgm1024 View Post

FURIOUS for me.

Please oh please let there be a massive class-action smack down of Monster, AudioQuest, and similar mooks.

Monster even had on their packaging words to the effect of "for 240-480 Hz tv's for smooth motion video". Note the dinky asterisks. They put at the bottom of the package small words to the effect "not yet available" or something. DO YOU SUPPOSE THAT'S OK YOU UNBELIEVABLE CRIMINALS?????????????



I posted some time ago a link to the AudioQuest "Diamon" $1099 1 meter (!!!!) HDMI cable on the Best Buy site, because the reviews were hilarious!

They seem to have pulled the 1m "Diamond" cable. But Amazon has it. Read THEIR reviews.

http://www.amazon.com/AudioQuest-Diamond-1m-Braided-Cable/dp/B003CT08E4

And get this: I asked a BB grunt once "Have you actually sold one of those $1099 AudioQuest 1m cables?" And his response was an ENTHUSIASTIC "Oh Yeah!", with his head nodding----hard to describe in text, but his inflection was indicating "of course----it's great!"

@#$%ers.


Sample review Quote from Amazon's reviews of that AudioQuest monstrosity:

(etc.) Try not to die laughing!

To be fair they receive no training at all. They're not taught to know those things for some reason the company doesn't value things like that. I was walking by an associate who was trying explain the difference between edge lit, back lit, full array and local dimming sets and he was explaining this to what appeared to be a new associate and as he was explaing this a supervisor walked up a told the new associate "yeah but none of that is relevant, you don't need to know stuff like that."

SMH.

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post #14 of 18 Old 01-30-2013, 02:54 PM
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Originally Posted by hoozthatat View Post

To be fair they receive no training at all. They're not taught to know those things for some reason the company doesn't value things like that. I was walking by an associate who was trying explain the difference between edge lit, back lit, full array and local dimming sets and he was explaining this to what appeared to be a new associate and as he was explaing this a supervisor walked up a told the new associate "yeah but none of that is relevant, you don't need to know stuff like that."

SMH.

Actually, my "@#$%ers" comment was there before I had gone back and put in the BB stuff. It was originally meant for the Monster Cable crowd, who certainly DO know better.

Sorry BB guys. You're not @#$%ers. LOL....

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post #15 of 18 Old 01-30-2013, 03:26 PM
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Originally Posted by tgm1024 View Post

Actually, my "@#$%ers" comment was there before I had gone back and put in the BB stuff. It was originally meant for the Monster Cable crowd, who certainly DO know better.

Sorry BB guys. You're not @#$%ers. LOL....

I didn't know who the explitive was towards, I was merely making an observation at what seemed to be a relevant time. I also shake my head the monster crowd. But people are free to spend or waste their money.

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post #16 of 18 Old 02-19-2013, 04:34 PM
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About the only thing that can change the PQ of a signal that is within the digital domain is purposeful math; IOW, you need a binary mathematical operation to be performed, and a right-angle connector does not do that, so it can't change the PQ. A consumer digital video signal is really just a number (actually a very long series of 8 bit binary numbers) and the only way to degrade the PQ is to perform math that changes that number into a new number, a new number with rounding errors in it. As the numbers become less true of a representation of the analog original because of rounding errors, the PQ starts to manifest artifacts that degrade it. But again, a connector can't do that.

This is why the cheapest 3-ft cable performs just as well as the most expensive one; neither of them perform binary math, either by accident or on purpose.

But right-angle or funky adapters might increase the reflections inside a cable (probably do), and that can either be a problem or not be a problem. If the run is long, the aggregate reflection from all the connectors and cabling might go over a threshold where problems occur, especially if there are a lot of adapters in the signal chain. But as we have seen here already, multiple cascaded adapters, while they most likely increase reflections, are not likely to manifest any actual issues, at least in a short cable run situation.

As separate but parallel digital signals bleed into each other, or as digital signals lose their ability to remain perfectly timed bit to bit in series, which happens over long cable runs, eventually a point is reached where the signal becomes unreliable due to those timing errors (jitter) or multipath interferrence (the reflections interfere with the desired signal making decoding or D-to-A problematic). While that may intefere with the "quality" of the picture as perceived, it is not technically a degradation of the PQ as it exists in the signal. But that fine point hardly matters because perception is what is important.

A long HDMI cable at a small gauge can do this, and a poorly shielded HDMI switch box can also do this. The result is white sparklies in the picture, usually in a static pattern. This is normally due to the signal being reflected inside the cabling, which I guess could be the digital equivalent of "ghosting". Most short cables do not have this issue. But even though "I ain't afraid of no ghosts", this artifact is real, and can be a real problem in long cable runs.

What that means is that a better-constructed HDMI cable might avoid this issue more than a poorly-constructed one might, or a better shielded or better-buffered HDMI switch box might not suffer from this as much as a cheap one. So while you can get away with cheap cables if the run is short, it might pay to get the better cables if the runs are long, or to not buy the bottom-of-the-barrel HDMI switch box at Monoprice.

But that is certainly not an endorsement of Monster or Blue Jeans cables; while they may be more expensive I don't think that means they are really guaranteed to be any better. Odds are that they probably are (in that they may have better, less-reflective connectors rather than just better-looking connectors), but the premium might be too much to pay for, and you only need high quality for long runs.

Bottom line, insert the adapters and see what you get; if there is a problem it will manifest as sparklies, which will be the very threshold of the digital cliff. If you do not see those, you can be assured that the PQ has not been even slightly degraded.

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post #17 of 18 Old 02-19-2013, 05:02 PM
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Originally Posted by TomCat View Post

This is why the cheapest 3-ft cable performs just as well as the most expensive one; neither of them perform binary math, either by accident or on purpose.

Yeah, but when you buy the $1099 1 meter AudioQuest "Diamond" HMTL cable, you are no longer getting merely 1's a and 0's. A person reported that it's so good he was getting 2's and even some 3's.
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post #18 of 18 Old 02-19-2013, 05:24 PM
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Well worth the price then

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