Reasons To Be Optimistic about 4k: Viewing Distances and Viewing Conditions. - Page 5 - AVS Forum
Forum Jump: 
Reply
 
Thread Tools
post #121 of 143 Old 01-08-2014, 05:54 AM
AVS Special Member
 
tgm1024's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Posts: 6,276
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 347 Post(s)
Liked: 732
Quote:
Originally Posted by jjnbos View Post
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by coolscan View Post


I am thankful that real proof that 4K is better than HD at last comes from people that actually owns 4K TVs.
The real "stress test" would have been to film with one HD camera and one 4K+ camera side-by-side.
Then show the video from the HD camera on the HD screen and video from the 4K camera on the 4K screen.
Then you would have a fair comparison

Agreed, but I have only 1 tv and zero cameras at home :-)

 

A test with multiple TVs would not be conclusive, because they are 1. different panels, each with their own vagaries, and 2. need to be calibrated equally, or at least have their settings be the same.  Too much can go wrong if the 4K steers soft and the 2K steers sharp.  You need a split screen test.  But I disagree with Coolscan's proposal of 2 cameras.  That also brings too yet another pile of variables that IMO don't need to be there.  Start with a single 4K 4:4:4 originating feed, make a 2K 4:4:4 from it, convert both to 4:2:0, Use NN replication to bring the 2K 4:2:0 up to 4K, and splice the two together.  Even though the 2K side would benefit from the thinner grid between pixels, it's still fewer variables than viewing 2 screens, or 2 screens and 2 cameras.

jjnbos likes this.

Grow milkweed. The Monarch Butterfly requires it, and its numbers are dwindling fast.
tgm1024 is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #122 of 143 Old 01-08-2014, 09:32 AM
AVS Special Member
 
curlyjive's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Abington, PA
Posts: 1,288
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 89 Post(s)
Liked: 35
Here is my take on 4K/UHD:

1) The displays will make their way to stores and the price will come down. People will buy them, as they will become the most common display, just as most displays have 3D whether you want it or not.

2) 4K Displays will likely look better, if for no other reason than they are newer better panels and displays tend to improve a bit year to year anyway. Sure the average person with a 60" 4k TV is not going to see the same benefit as someone with a 100"+. Even with 1080p content, the higher fill rate should be beneficial with decent scaling

3) My real concern is content. I can foresee a CD/MP3 type scenario here. Consumers want the convenience of streaming and the content owners like it because you own nothing and they retain all rights. People moved to MP3 players from CD's (forget SACD) because of convenience. The average person was ok with the lesser quality of an MP3. Now they have gotten better,but still not as good as a lossless master copy. Yet how many people buy expensive earphones for their MP3 players?!

Now with 4k/UHD content, it seems likely the display will be capable of amazing images but the content will be mediocre. Why? Well streaming 1080p VUDU HDX or Netflix SuperHD is ok, but even on my 60" it's not as good as blu ray....forget about the 100" setup I have. So even though the codecs will be better and more efficient, it seems hard to for me to believe they are ready to deliver stellar 4K content WITH LOSSLESS audio (not available for 1080p streams yet!) And don't forget, we don't even get 1080p60 for TV broadcasts yet! SO add in higher frame rates and hopefully greater color bit depth/gamut and I don't see streaming as a viable option for real quality.

What you very well could end up with is a display capable of 4k progressive images with higher frame rates and greater color bit depth/gamut (which in my opinion is just as important an improvement, if not more so, than simply higher resolution), but the 4K content will be so subpar. Now the average person will be fine with it because they want convenience and instant access. Heck I can't tell you how many HDTV owners I have seen who are even sending HD feeds to it!!! They're perfectly happy!

That will suit content owners and CE manufactures just fine. They will sell their shiny new tech, content providers will deliver subpar content and retain all ownership and get rid of pesky physical media to manufacture plus you'll still feel you need to go see the movie in order to see it at its best.

Don't even get me started on cloud ownership or HD arrays for purchased downloads. Has anyone wondered what happens to the UV digital copies they have if UV goes under? A real and viable physical media is still necessary unless a streaming option can truly deliver everything a physical media can AND a real ownership model exists for the consumer.
jjnbos likes this.
curlyjive is online now  
post #123 of 143 Old 01-09-2014, 04:44 PM
Senior Member
 
jjnbos's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2013
Location: New Orleans
Posts: 252
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 60
Quote:
Originally Posted by tgm1024 View Post

A test with multiple TVs would not be conclusive, because they are...

I think you missed the point: the difference is not subtle and easy to see even at 10'
jjnbos is offline  
post #124 of 143 Old 01-09-2014, 05:19 PM
AVS Special Member
 
tgm1024's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Posts: 6,276
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 347 Post(s)
Liked: 732
Quote:
Originally Posted by jjnbos View Post
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by tgm1024 View Post

A test with multiple TVs would not be conclusive, because they are...

I think you missed the point: the difference is not subtle and easy to see even at 10'

 

No, I assure you I didn't miss the point.  I've been among the most vocal here at how obvious the 4K seemed to me.

 

The exercise at hand is to produce a conclusive test.  It's to that end that I'm speaking.

jjnbos likes this.

Grow milkweed. The Monarch Butterfly requires it, and its numbers are dwindling fast.
tgm1024 is offline  
post #125 of 143 Old 01-09-2014, 07:34 PM
 
vinnie97's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Nunya
Posts: 11,657
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 213 Post(s)
Liked: 1010
Just take the marine geophysicist's word for it, tgm. We cower in his presence. Why someone with his supposed credentials would reject such a scientific endeavor raises the curiosity.
vinnie97 is offline  
post #126 of 143 Old 01-10-2014, 06:57 AM
AVS Special Member
 
tgm1024's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Posts: 6,276
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 347 Post(s)
Liked: 732
Quote:
Originally Posted by coolscan View Post

Here is a video from a lecture by Mark Schubin that present some different arguments than the annoying seating distance and chart arguments we are all so familiar with.

 

Hey, I liked that!  But how do I see the rest of the presentation?  I like how he almost immediately brought in harmonics, contrast, and combined them with resolution driving the point home that you cannot separate out things arbitrarily.


Grow milkweed. The Monarch Butterfly requires it, and its numbers are dwindling fast.
tgm1024 is offline  
post #127 of 143 Old 01-10-2014, 07:00 AM
AVS Special Member
 
tgm1024's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Posts: 6,276
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 347 Post(s)
Liked: 732
Quote:
Originally Posted by vinnie97 View Post

Just take the marine geophysicist's word for it, tgm. We cower in his presence. Why someone with his supposed credentials would reject such a scientific endeavor raises the curiosity.

 

I don't think he was rejecting it per se; I think he just thought I sought to defeat the notion that 4K was obvious at viewing distances when I wasn't.  I'm definitely in the "go 4K!" camp.  I know you're not so much.


Grow milkweed. The Monarch Butterfly requires it, and its numbers are dwindling fast.
tgm1024 is offline  
post #128 of 143 Old 01-10-2014, 07:45 AM
AVS Special Member
 
coolscan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 1,794
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 9 Post(s)
Liked: 102
Quote:
Originally Posted by tgm1024 View Post

Hey, I liked that!  But how do I see the rest of the presentation?  I like how he almost immediately brought in harmonics, contrast, and combined them with resolution driving the point home that you cannot separate out things arbitrarily.
I think this presentation is only a part of a presentation for some thing else.
You can find more of his presentations on his YouTube Channel, and several of them covers some of the arguments presented in this video, but hidden among other camera tech stuff.

It is some time since I looked through the videos, and I won't look through them again right now, so my suggestions are based on memory.

These should cover some of the same as the posted video and some other relevant things that often come up in discussions here at AVS, in no specific order;

  • Bang for the Buck: Data Rate vs. Perception in UHD Production
  • NAB 2013 Wrap Up at SMPTE DC ( sevral interesting items discussed but most relevant from min.35:00 mostly repeat the same as the posted video)
  • Redefining High Definition
  • 4K Video (HPA 2012)
  • 24-fps Was No Big Deal
  • The 'Look' of HFR
  • When We're Ready: a History of Cinema Technology
  • Advancing Cameras for Cinema (Panel Intro Only) This one would have been great to see the presentation from all the people listed. I don't know if NAB upload any of the NAB conference videoes. But if not; Why not?
  • Introduction and Technology Year in Review (that's a little old)
coolscan is offline  
post #129 of 143 Old 01-10-2014, 08:15 AM
 
vinnie97's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Nunya
Posts: 11,657
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 213 Post(s)
Liked: 1010
Quote:
Originally Posted by tgm1024 View Post

I don't think he was rejecting it per se; I think he just thought I sought to defeat the notion that 4K was obvious at viewing distances when I wasn't.  I'm definitely in the "go 4K!" camp.  I know you're not so much.
You are fine tuned to my psyche/posts...more of a skeptic of course, but seeing will be believing one way or another.
vinnie97 is offline  
post #130 of 143 Old 01-10-2014, 08:21 AM
AVS Special Member
 
tgm1024's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Posts: 6,276
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 347 Post(s)
Liked: 732
Quote:
Originally Posted by coolscan View Post
 
  • The 'Look' of HFR

 

The HFR was great.  I wish it were complete though.  Arg!  The mention that the shutter angle had the most affect (according to the speaker) to granting the video look was something I've been wondering about for awhile now.  I can show on my TV (for instance), that when my source material is paused, and I have Sony's MotionFlow maxed out, that the SOE look *stays*.  So it's not merely a case of there being more frames per second, but a potential affect derived from the how long the image existed per frame (among other things).  Folks here still seem to latch SOE to frame rate only, and it's just not so.  Further, all items in the shot exhibit SOE, even the stationary ones.  Gonna put this is the HFR thread (again) eventually.


Grow milkweed. The Monarch Butterfly requires it, and its numbers are dwindling fast.
tgm1024 is offline  
post #131 of 143 Old 01-10-2014, 08:22 AM
AVS Special Member
 
tgm1024's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Posts: 6,276
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 347 Post(s)
Liked: 732
Quote:
Originally Posted by vinnie97 View Post
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by tgm1024 View Post

I don't think he was rejecting it per se; I think he just thought I sought to defeat the notion that 4K was obvious at viewing distances when I wasn't.  I'm definitely in the "go 4K!" camp.  I know you're not so much.
You are fine tuned to my psyche/posts...more of a skeptic of course, but seeing will be believing one way or another.

 

You can't see a difference at BB/Mag, at say, 9ish feet?

jjnbos likes this.

Grow milkweed. The Monarch Butterfly requires it, and its numbers are dwindling fast.
tgm1024 is offline  
post #132 of 143 Old 01-10-2014, 08:24 AM
 
vinnie97's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Nunya
Posts: 11,657
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 213 Post(s)
Liked: 1010
I don't have a Magnolia nearby unfortunately, and the satellite BB that is local leaves a bit to be desired on the footprint front. I had intended to attend CES but other issues came up. One of the days...
vinnie97 is offline  
post #133 of 143 Old 01-11-2014, 12:32 AM
Senior Member
 
jjnbos's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2013
Location: New Orleans
Posts: 252
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 60
Quote:
Originally Posted by vinnie97 View Post

I don't have a Magnolia nearby unfortunately, and the satellite BB that is local leaves a bit to be desired on the footprint front. I had intended to attend CES but other issues came up. One of the days...

So outside of saying cruel things, I gather you've never even seen the image but you are convinced doesn't look noticeably better.
jjnbos is offline  
post #134 of 143 Old 01-11-2014, 12:56 AM
Senior Member
 
jjnbos's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2013
Location: New Orleans
Posts: 252
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 60
Quote:
Originally Posted by tgm1024 View Post

I don't think he was rejecting it per se; I think he just thought I sought to defeat the notion that 4K was obvious at viewing distances when I wasn't.  I'm definitely in the "go 4K!" camp.  I know you're not so much.
As I guess you are suggesting, standing 9 feet away from a screen showing even up sampled blue ray at BB is all that is needed to debunk the nonsense that there is no improvement. Quantifying subjective PQ is not easy, and any down/up sampling is going to be a subject of opinion given by definition it will be done right at the Nyquist limits. But I'd be happy to watch your demo. Seems like something Sony should make/provide, and I think the demo loop at BB does some quick wipe to this end, but they don't give the details of how it was made.

So to re-iterate, if a customer can't see the difference, then it doesn't exist for practical purposes. Most people won't pay extra to see a beer commercial in up sampled UHD, and there is no content, but they can see the PQ difference at 9' by going to a BestBuy

I would wish people that haven't seen a 4K TV stop offering uninformed opinions here, or at least start prefacing their remarks by something like "Although I've never seen a 4k picture, I know it's worthless"
jjnbos is offline  
post #135 of 143 Old 01-11-2014, 08:29 AM
 
vinnie97's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Nunya
Posts: 11,657
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 213 Post(s)
Liked: 1010
Quote:
Originally Posted by jjnbos View Post

So outside of saying cruel things, I gather you've never even seen the image but you are convinced doesn't look noticeably better.
Cruel things and me being convinced? No, merely skeptical, and I just think it's a bit unnecessary to flash your credentials when you're making a subjective comparison of video quality. Also, there was a 4K set at the following shootout, and higher resolution alone didn't help it to climb above the competition: http://www.bigpicturebigsound.com/Samsung-Panasonic-Plasma-TVs-Trounce-the-LED-Competition-Again-at-Flat-Panel-Shootout-2013.shtml

Frankly, we need OLED in conjunction with 4K (with the wider color gamut of a new HDMI revision) for an upgrade all the way around.
vinnie97 is offline  
post #136 of 143 Old 01-11-2014, 08:47 AM
Senior Member
 
jjnbos's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2013
Location: New Orleans
Posts: 252
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 60
Quote:
Originally Posted by vinnie97 View Post

Cruel things and me being convinced? No, merely skeptical, and I just think it's a bit unnecessary to flash your credentials ...

Speaking of which: have you ever actually watched something on a 4K?

That's my credential of interest; I watched one everyday for 6 months.

If you want to know why you can see the improvement; somebody that designed the Ampex ADO software and taught signal processing to grad students at a research university might have be qualified to offer an opinion; but its always going to be up to you if it's worn while. Personally, the upscaling is enough, but I wish I had 4k content to watch.

Maybe give it a rest until you have to drive across town and spend some time looking at one, or you've seen some Youttube footage of the fancy demo that "tgm1024" might be able to create...
jjnbos is offline  
post #137 of 143 Old 01-11-2014, 09:44 AM
AVS Special Member
 
tgm1024's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Posts: 6,276
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 347 Post(s)
Liked: 732
Quote:
Originally Posted by vinnie97 View Post
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by jjnbos View Post

So outside of saying cruel things, I gather you've never even seen the image but you are convinced doesn't look noticeably better.
Cruel things and me being convinced? No, merely skeptical, and I just think it's a bit unnecessary to flash your credentials when you're making a subjective comparison of video quality. Also, there was a 4K set at the following shootout, and higher resolution alone didn't help it to climb above the competition: http://www.bigpicturebigsound.com/Samsung-Panasonic-Plasma-TVs-Trounce-the-LED-Competition-Again-at-Flat-Panel-Shootout-2013.shtml

Frankly, we need OLED in conjunction with 4K (with the wider color gamut of a new HDMI revision) for an upgrade all the way around.

 

We have to be careful with how the TVs are set up.  They don't need to be fully calibrated, but some care has to be taken when trying to get a subjective sense.  Recently at my local BB/Mag they had a 4K samsung set up that looked just terribly soft IMO, and it was an incredibly strong reminder that you can make any set look horrible if you're not careful.


Grow milkweed. The Monarch Butterfly requires it, and its numbers are dwindling fast.
tgm1024 is offline  
post #138 of 143 Old 01-11-2014, 10:09 AM
 
vinnie97's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Nunya
Posts: 11,657
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 213 Post(s)
Liked: 1010
That's another reason why one can't necessarily rely on an in-store demo to establish conclusions (i.e. those who have already completely written off 4K). I have faith in the Value Electronics clan (not unfounded), and the 2014 shootout should be a whole new ballgame with plasma out of the way (though I hope they keep a ZT60 for reference).
vinnie97 is offline  
post #139 of 143 Old 01-11-2014, 11:39 AM
AVS Special Member
 
tgm1024's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Posts: 6,276
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 347 Post(s)
Liked: 732
Quote:
Originally Posted by vinnie97 View Post

That's another reason why one can't necessarily rely on an in-store demo to establish conclusions (i.e. those who have already completely written off 4K). I have faith in the Value Electronics clan (not unfounded), and the 2014 shootout should be a whole new ballgame with plasma out of the way (though I hope they keep a ZT60 for reference).

 

That particular shootout had a big problem IMO, in that the bezels of the TV's aren't hidden.

 

They should really all be behind a large black cardboard or plywood cutout that completely obscures the brand, even showing only 80% of the screen if need be.  In this way you can pull away the bias that comes from knowing what a brand (or even the base technology) is ahead of time.

 

No one, no one, is immune to being swayed by such advance information.


Grow milkweed. The Monarch Butterfly requires it, and its numbers are dwindling fast.
tgm1024 is offline  
post #140 of 143 Old 01-11-2014, 11:47 AM
 
vinnie97's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Nunya
Posts: 11,657
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 213 Post(s)
Liked: 1010
I also like to see the prospect of confirmation bias and placebo effect removed from the equation. When this is done in the realm of digital audio, long-held assumptions can be instantly shattered. I'd like to see it in the above shootout as well...perhaps at the beginning when getting initial video quality impressions. That doesn't change the fact that even the 4K LCD will fall short in many parameters next to the plasmas aside from resolution.
vinnie97 is offline  
post #141 of 143 Old 01-11-2014, 09:09 PM
AVS Special Member
 
efranzen's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Seattle, WA
Posts: 1,133
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 11
I was at Fry's a few weeks back and they had the Sony 4K demo loop (soccer field, girl running on red flowers, etc.) playing on every HDTV in the store. When watching 4K content on a 4K set versus a standard set, the difference was very noticeable. Even comparing the 55" Sony 4K versus one of the 80"+ 1080p sets 10 feet away you could see a difference. If you got up close, the 1080p sets looked like you were looking at a 320x240 VGA image. The loss of detail was very noticeable.

Waiting for 4K content to come isn't a huge deal for me. For some of us, when we first got into HDTV there wasn't any content either. No dedicated channels. HD broadcasts only on a couple of channels for a couple of hours per evening. I must have watched my D-Theater copies of Alien, Master and Commander, and X-Men hundreds of times each. Heck, even when we got the first dedicated HD channel, Discovery HD Theater, they only had a few programs and you'd watch the same dozen shows over and over and over.
efranzen is offline  
post #142 of 143 Old 01-12-2014, 06:12 AM
Senior Member
 
fritzi93's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 422
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2 Post(s)
Liked: 39
Quote:
Originally Posted by efranzen View Post

Heck, even when we got the first dedicated HD channel, Discovery HD Theater, they only had a few programs and you'd watch the same dozen shows over and over and over.

Yeah, over and over. Remember HD Theater's Sunrise Earth? tongue.gif
fritzi93 is offline  
post #143 of 143 Old 01-15-2014, 03:49 AM
Senior Member
 
jjnbos's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2013
Location: New Orleans
Posts: 252
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 60
Quote:
Originally Posted by efranzen View Post

I was at Fry's a few weeks back and they had the Sony 4K demo loop (soccer field, girl running on red flowers, etc.) playing on every HDTV in the store. When watching 4K content on a 4K set versus a standard set, the difference was very noticeable. Even comparing the 55" Sony 4K versus one of the 80"+ 1080p sets 10 feet away you could see a difference. If you got up close, the 1080p sets looked like you were looking at a 320x240 VGA image. The loss of detail was very noticeable..

I would like to have seen that. Thanks for a sharing an actual viewing experience.
jjnbos is offline  
Reply OLED Technology and Flat Panels General

User Tag List

Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page


Forum Jump: 

Posting Rules  
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off