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post #331 of 350 Old 08-27-2014, 01:19 PM
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Nice review of the new SDK in case you missed it. It covers the chromatic aberration issue pretty well. It was a deal breaker for me playing with it at E3. Attached is an example of what I saw.

http://www.flatpanelshd.com/review.p...&id=1407909173

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Chromatic Aberration
An optical problem, which unfortunately affects DK2, is "chromatic aberration". It is visible around the edges of things and objects where you can sometimes notice that red/green/blue are separated, especially when the contrast is high as well as in areas that are farther away from the center of the lens. You also often notice it with wide-angle cameras as you get farther away from the center of the image. If you adjust the lenses properly you can limit the problem.

However, I - and others - have noticed that the problem is non-existent in the configuration demonstration that comes bundled with the SDK (the desktop demo). So it is possible to solve in with software, and that makes me optimistic about eliminating the phenomenon.

The photo below is taken in Elite Dangerous. It’s not really an image of chromatic aberration, but rather what the software is doing to fix it. As you can see it separates the red, green and blue colors in opposite directions the farther you get to edge of the image.
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post #332 of 350 Old 08-27-2014, 04:12 PM
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Originally Posted by Wizziwig View Post
Nice review of the new SDK in case you missed it. It covers the chromatic aberration issue pretty well. It was a deal breaker for me playing with it at E3. Attached is an example of what I saw.

http://www.flatpanelshd.com/review.p...&id=1407909173
Software correction can help with chromatic aberration, but it's still not an ideal solution.

I wonder if it's something simple like them using polycarbonate lenses (awful quality) and that switching to CR-39 plastic lenses for the consumer version would greatly reduce the problem.
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post #333 of 350 Old 08-28-2014, 11:43 AM
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Originally Posted by Chronoptimist View Post
Software correction can help with chromatic aberration, but it's still not an ideal solution.

I wonder if it's something simple like them using polycarbonate lenses (awful quality) and that switching to CR-39 plastic lenses for the consumer version would greatly reduce the problem.
All I know is that it was unusable for me in its current state. I did not notice these problems on the original lower resolution LCD SDK.

I think what makes it even worse is the pentile pixel structure since that introduces color fringing of its own that is then magnified by the poor quality lenses as the pixels approach the edges of the screen.

It still has a lot of potential so I hope the facebook money will allow them to solve these issues. I doubt we'll see any consumer hardware for at least another year.
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post #334 of 350 Old 10-10-2014, 08:38 AM
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post #335 of 350 Old 10-10-2014, 09:31 AM
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Originally Posted by irkuck View Post
We get it, you backed the Avegant Glyph kickstarter and feel that you have some investment in it. You don't have to push your agenda so hard.

One thing that some people have found is that applying an anti-glare film to the display - since it's just a Galaxy Note 3 panel - can help reduce the screendoor by slightly diffusing the image:



Anyway, these are devkits, not consumer products. The Galaxy Note 4 OLED display is 2560x1440.
They recently demoed a new devkit - Crescent Bay - with a much higher resolution than the current DK2, though they were tight-lipped on what resolution it was.
It was said that screen-door was minimal on this compared to DK2, and people have been speculating that it was actually using a 4K panel. I'm also wondering if it's a higher resolution panel with a diffusion film on top to help mask the pixel structure.
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post #336 of 350 Old 10-10-2014, 12:07 PM
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^Bringing these facts has nothing to do with my investment in Glyph, these are health related facts. If prolonged use of the OR would lead to persistent retinal aftereffects then the device can not be released to consumers. As the simulation shows only 4K display would eliminate this, 2560x1440 is not enough. Blurring the picture is not the right solution and some pixel grid remains.
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post #337 of 350 Old 10-10-2014, 12:59 PM
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Originally Posted by irkuck View Post
^Bringing these facts has nothing to do with my investment in Glyph, these are health related facts. If prolonged use of the OR would lead to persistent retinal aftereffects then the device can not be released to consumers. As the simulation shows only 4K display would eliminate this, 2560x1440 is not enough. Blurring the picture is not the right solution and some pixel grid remains.
It's not going to be released to consumers, it is a devkit.

A properly designed filter could diffuse the image enough that the pixel grid is greatly reduced, without compromising image sharpness much. As higher resolutions are used, less diffusion would be required.
This is a perfectly valid solution, and one which Panasonic have been using in their LCD projectors for years as their "Smooth Screen" technology.

And staring at anything for five hours straight might not be the smartest idea.
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post #338 of 350 Old 10-10-2014, 06:23 PM
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Originally Posted by Chronoptimist View Post
people have been speculating that it was actually using a 4K panel.
I highly doubt this since you would need DisplayPort 1.3 (which no GPU supports yet) in order to do 4k at anything higher than 60hz without using reduced chroma.
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post #339 of 350 Old 10-11-2014, 05:53 AM
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Originally Posted by Chronoptimist View Post
It's not going to be released to consumers, it is a devkit. A properly designed filter could diffuse the image enough that the pixel grid is greatly reduced, without compromising image sharpness much. As higher resolutions are used, less diffusion would be required. This is a perfectly valid solution, and one which Panasonic have been using in their LCD projectors for years as their "Smooth Screen" technology. And staring at anything for five hours straight might not be the smartest idea.
Actual product is going to have 2560x1440 res which is not sufficient according to simulation, full 4K is needed but it is rather unlikely OR will get it (though there were signals 4K is coming to mobiles). Filtering will not work: close-to-the-eye has highest requirements for PQ, nothing less than silky smooth ultrasharp pictures, this is not comparable to projectors. Staring for five hours is not smart but people are supposed to live in the OR VR universe...
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post #340 of 350 Old 10-11-2014, 08:03 AM
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I highly doubt this since you would need DisplayPort 1.3 (which no GPU supports yet) in order to do 4k at anything higher than 60hz without using reduced chroma.
Good point, though they were unwilling to divulge any information on it, so it is possible that it may have been running at 60Hz.
Or each half of the display could have been driven by separate display connectors using the new NVIDIA VR SLI where one GPU handles each eye.

It's very likely that it was a 2560x1440 panel, but people said that it looked noticeably better than the Gear VR demos, having a far less noticeable pixel structure.
Perhaps it was 1440p with a diffusion filter in place rather than 4K.

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Originally Posted by irkuck View Post
Actual product is going to have 2560x1440 res which is not sufficient according to simulation, full 4K is needed but it is rather unlikely OR will get it (though there were signals 4K is coming to mobiles). Filtering will not work: close-to-the-eye has highest requirements for PQ, nothing less than silky smooth ultrasharp pictures, this is not comparable to projectors.
It probably will, since the Note 4 panel is 2560x1440 but nothing is confirmed.
That "simulation" is a joke.

Apparently you forgot that lenses are in use with the Oculus Rift, so that your eyes focus at infinity rather than focusing as though you are right up against the display.
This makes the Rift very similar to a projector, where you have a small display panel "projected" to a larger image. And as I said before, Panasonic have been using this technique for years with their LCD projectors.

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Staring for five hours is not smart but people are supposed to live in the OR VR universe...
VR is not "The Matrix" nor is it trying to be.
You can't blame the device if you decide to use it for five hours without taking breaks.
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post #341 of 350 Old 10-16-2014, 03:08 PM
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VR is not "The Matrix" nor is it trying to be.
In a way it is. It's trying (at least in some ways) to create the illusion (within the limits of the system) that you are in particular reality/world.
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post #342 of 350 Old 10-17-2014, 01:43 AM
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post #343 of 350 Old 10-30-2014, 08:26 AM
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Figured I'd chime in on this thread. I use VR headsets in my line of work and was in attendance at Oculus Connect. I spent about 20 minutes on a gear VR and did the Crescent bay demo twice. I also got to talk to many of the talent Oculus staff.

The GearVR was impressive for what it was. The 1440p is certainly nice and is better than the DK2 in many ways. Firstly, text is finally legible at a good-enough-for-gaming level. There was still a screen door effect, but it was really really insignificant compared to DK1/2. The software stack was pretty neat and things felt much snappier and lower latency than I would have expected out of a phone driven OS/experience. I went in thinking it was not a device I'd have any interest in, but left pretty impressed. It isn't in any way competition for the PC headsets, but certainly blows away any sort of "Movie theater" style HMD like the Sony HMZ line. It would be amazing for plane rides

The Crescent Bay demo was really good... really really good. I have been following VR since before oculus and have tried every publicly shown headset they have shown at trade shows or put up for sale. My expectations were exceeded. I have been converted from thinking that this will just be a gaming/simulation display device to it being something bigger, more widely adopted. Crescent bay is at least as big a jump from DK2 as DK2 was to DK1, but it probably takes if further in terms of the experience. We tried a really rough prototype construction wise, but with some fit and finish is this probably they first thing they have shown that I'd say is close to consumer ready and something the average joe would get impressed by.

Tech spec wise: it was running the lower persistence, 90hz display. The PCs only had a single video card (confirmed to me as a 980GTX), I can't remember exactly what cable was plugged in (there are pictures somewhere), but there was only one. It wasn't SLI. The camera was also different and had a huge tracking volume compared to DK2. I was able to stand up, take a step in every direction, turn around 360 and crawl on the floor without it ever losing me. The headset was surprisingly smaller and lighter than the DK2 which is impressive because the image inside feels much more expansive (I can't subjectively remember how different the FOV was. I was too blown away by the other aspects to notice). The tracking speed was very quick, similar to the recent 0.4.3 SDK improvements.

The screen definitely wasn't the same as the Note4. They wouldn't say the res but I got a wink wink, nudge nudge response along the lines of Valves previous work pointing to a minimum 1k*1k per eye. There are rumors floating around that because of the shape/aspect of the HMD it was using the 21:9 samsung prototype OLED (???x1440p) but only using the central 16:9 of the panel to overdrive it to 90hz. You could see pixels if you looked, but it was the first time it was comparable to a standard 1080p monitor in resolution and looks. There was no screen door. The lensing was very different with non-circular lenses that were more of a highly arc'd triangle in appearance. The was much less distortion barely any chromatic separation. Much higher quality optics IMO.

There are still so many VR problems to be solved and ultimately content is king (another strength of the Cres bay demos), but we are going to go so far ahead of the DK2 in the next year. Talking to people at Connect really hit home how smart the people are working there and how much they care about getting it right.
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post #344 of 350 Old 10-30-2014, 08:09 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by as2onish View Post
Figured I'd chime in on this thread. I use VR headsets in my line of work and was in attendance at Oculus Connect. I spent about 20 minutes on a gear VR and did the Crescent bay demo twice. I also got to talk to many of the talent Oculus staff.

The GearVR was impressive for what it was. The 1440p is certainly nice and is better than the DK2 in many ways. Firstly, text is finally legible at a good-enough-for-gaming level. There was still a screen door effect, but it was really really insignificant compared to DK1/2. The software stack was pretty neat and things felt much snappier and lower latency than I would have expected out of a phone driven OS/experience. I went in thinking it was not a device I'd have any interest in, but left pretty impressed. It isn't in any way competition for the PC headsets, but certainly blows away any sort of "Movie theater" style HMD like the Sony HMZ line. It would be amazing for plane rides

The Crescent Bay demo was really good... really really good. I have been following VR since before oculus and have tried every publicly shown headset they have shown at trade shows or put up for sale. My expectations were exceeded. I have been converted from thinking that this will just be a gaming/simulation display device to it being something bigger, more widely adopted. Crescent bay is at least as big a jump from DK2 as DK2 was to DK1, but it probably takes if further in terms of the experience. We tried a really rough prototype construction wise, but with some fit and finish is this probably they first thing they have shown that I'd say is close to consumer ready and something the average joe would get impressed by.

Tech spec wise: it was running the lower persistence, 90hz display. The PCs only had a single video card (confirmed to me as a 980GTX), I can't remember exactly what cable was plugged in (there are pictures somewhere), but there was only one. It wasn't SLI. The camera was also different and had a huge tracking volume compared to DK2. I was able to stand up, take a step in every direction, turn around 360 and crawl on the floor without it ever losing me. The headset was surprisingly smaller and lighter than the DK2 which is impressive because the image inside feels much more expansive (I can't subjectively remember how different the FOV was. I was too blown away by the other aspects to notice). The tracking speed was very quick, similar to the recent 0.4.3 SDK improvements.

The screen definitely wasn't the same as the Note4. They wouldn't say the res but I got a wink wink, nudge nudge response along the lines of Valves previous work pointing to a minimum 1k*1k per eye. There are rumors floating around that because of the shape/aspect of the HMD it was using the 21:9 samsung prototype OLED (???x1440p) but only using the central 16:9 of the panel to overdrive it to 90hz. You could see pixels if you looked, but it was the first time it was comparable to a standard 1080p monitor in resolution and looks. There was no screen door. The lensing was very different with non-circular lenses that were more of a highly arc'd triangle in appearance. The was much less distortion barely any chromatic separation. Much higher quality optics IMO.

There are still so many VR problems to be solved and ultimately content is king (another strength of the Cres bay demos), but we are going to go so far ahead of the DK2 in the next year. Talking to people at Connect really hit home how smart the people are working there and how much they care about getting it right.
Yes , your correct, confirmed it was a Nvidea GTX980.
I just read a artical on Road to VR that one new game for Oculus Rift from I think Epic Games was running at 90 fps.

The concern I have with any display or a head mounted display most notible LEDS and emitting blue light so close to the eyes.
Is it a legitiment concern of the hazards of blue light from these displays ? Or has the VR community have already done research into the long term effects on the human eyes from blue with these head mounted displays or other eyes problems ?

Would they employ some kind of filter for blue light emissions ?
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post #345 of 350 Old 10-31-2014, 12:14 PM
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Yes , your correct, confirmed it was a Nvidea GTX980.
I just read a artical on Road to VR that one new game for Oculus Rift from I think Epic Games was running at 90 fps.

The concern I have with any display or a head mounted display most notible LEDS and emitting blue light so close to the eyes.
Is it a legitiment concern of the hazards of blue light from these displays ? Or has the VR community have already done research into the long term effects on the human eyes from blue with these head mounted displays or other eyes problems ?

Would they employ some kind of filter for blue light emissions ?
All but one of the 11 (12?) demos shown were using Epic's unreal engine 4. Only one was by Epic themselves, another by an old demo scene group and the rest by the Oculus Content teams (from Seattle I believe). None of them were actual "games" yet.

I don't know enough about the blue light health issue to comment. I don't think there is any more or less research done by them on that topic than any other display manufacturer. A lot of people worry about the screen so close, but most of the bigger problems of sitting to close to an old CRT don't apply: there isn't the same kind of radiation as CRTs, the lenses focus out at infinity so your eyes are more comfortable, and the brightness isn't as high.

There are certainly lots of parts of the VR experience including the stereoscopic imagery, the use of low persistence frame timing, adaptations to sensory integration and other factors that should be addressed about the long term effects of using VR. I'm not concerned in the short term of acute effects.
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post #346 of 350 Old 11-01-2014, 04:44 PM
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Originally Posted by DLPProjectorfan View Post
I just read a artical on Road to VR that one new game for Oculus Rift from I think Epic Games was running at 90 fps.
Uhh, you know that most polygonal-based PC games don't have a framerate cap and, if they do, it's something really high. For example, Quake 3 is capped at 1000fps (not a typo), which you can see via this thread of people running the timedemo at such framerates:
http://www.esreality.com/post/2217864/

The only exception are poor console ports, which itself is a bit silly since game engines really should be time-based nowadays, not frame-based (I mean, even Star Wars: Shadows of the Empire on the freakin N64 used a time-based engine).

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post #347 of 350 Old 11-07-2014, 11:55 AM
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Anyone know if the high contrast transitional ghosting issue can be overcome with better engineering?
I'm not sure if this is also an issue with the high end LG Panel like the EC series?
I can see how this could be vastly improved by keeping the pixels turned on an almost imperceptible amount as it may take significantly longer to turn on from off rather than close to off.
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post #348 of 350 Old 11-10-2014, 01:46 AM
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Anyone know if the high contrast transitional ghosting issue can be overcome with better engineering?
I'm not sure if this is also an issue with the high end LG Panel like the EC series?
I can see how this could be vastly improved by keeping the pixels turned on an almost imperceptible amount as it may take significantly longer to turn on from off rather than close to off.
I definitely see ghostly extensions for the OR and future ads "Divine experience guaranteed"
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post #349 of 350 Old 11-10-2014, 12:49 PM
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Umm, Okay

I just ordered my rift so i'll be able to play around with settings to try and alleviate this alleged true black smear/ghosting.

Sounds like some users have tried raising black level to ensure no pixels are ever completely off and then experienced a green haze from the larger number of (or possibly larger size of?) green sub pixels.

It sounds like the green haze can probably be calibrated out for the most part.
I'll know for certain in a month or two when it arrives.
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post #350 of 350 Old 11-28-2014, 10:12 PM
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Received the rift yesterday.

First of all the image is gorgeous and the head tracking provides a sense of atmosphere you could probably only get if you had screens all around, above and below you

The chromatic aberration is addressed well by the software I've used (vorpx).

The dark scene ghosting issue is also addressed well by removing the off state.
I've played quite a bit of very dark content and I've yet to notice the difference between display off and display barely above black, however it certainly minimizes ghosting.

The "green haze" issue that some were saying is inherent to the display technology can be calibrated to a "neutral haze". However due to the pixel structure visibility, it cannot be calibrated out entirely and appears mostly when looking at medium dark scenes, a screen filter may help though.

Overall an entirely new experience that holds up quite well, now if they could just make it slightly lighter and more perfect
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