AVS Roundup of the Best-Reviewed Flat Panel TVs of 2012 - Page 7 - AVS Forum
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post #181 of 254 Old 04-06-2013, 07:39 AM
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Originally Posted by jsnkiefer View Post

I guess I really don't understand the griping about screen reflections. Has everyone forgotten that we all used to have CRT's that were MUCH worse at handling reflections?

No.

CRT's usually had an outward facing curve to them that shrank the specular reflectance somewhat. But there are truly 3 things going on there:
  1. The curvature shrinking of the specular reflectance
  2. The shear size of the screen (a 32" CRT doesn't make more than a 32" mirror---worst case). smile.gif
  3. The fact that CRT's are *bright* AND *emissive* beasts, which in many cases stood the chance of better "blasting through" the reflection from behind regardless of angle.

Yes, LED-LCD's are bright enough to burn the back of your skull, but lose that dramatically when looked off-angle (it's a transmissive technology). Plasmas are emissive, but not bright. CRT's had 3 things going for them that today's high-glare flat-panels do not.

Grow milkweed. The Monarch Butterfly requires it, and its numbers are dwindling fast.
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post #182 of 254 Old 04-06-2013, 06:12 PM - Thread Starter
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The problem I have with a lot of reviewers is that they receive TVs before they are available in stores, which means they have to get them direct from the manufacturer (standard M.O. anyway---no one wants to pay for these things), which means they stand the very likely possibility of getting the lucky TV that exhibits no cloudiness, no edge bleed, and anything else that might vary from screen to screen. Particularly if they're from a place that employs a very loosely controlled panel lottery like a certain manufacturer that will remain unnamed (Samsung).


You're right that most reviewers get their review samples directly from the manufacturer—no one has the budget to buy review samples, except Consumer Reports—and we often wonder if they send specially selected and tweaked samples; there's no way to know for sure. I don't know about other outlets, but when I was at Home Theater, we always insisted on production samples, not pre-production, so they were typically available in stores when we got them. And most of the time, they looked factory-packed—that is, wrapped in protective plastic in such a way that could not be perfectly redone once it had been removed, no matter how carefully. The only exception was if the TV had been reviewed by another outlet before us; most manufacturers have only a few review samples that are sent to several reviewers over time.


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post #183 of 254 Old 04-06-2013, 08:13 PM
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Originally Posted by tgm1024 View Post

The problem I have with a lot of reviewers is that they receive TVs before they are available in stores, which means they have to get them direct from the manufacturer (standard M.O. anyway---no one wants to pay for these things), which means they stand the very likely possibility of getting the lucky TV that exhibits no cloudiness, no edge bleed, and anything else that might vary from screen to screen. Particularly if they're from a place that employs a very loosely controlled panel lottery like a certain manufacturer that will remain unnamed (Samsung).


You're right that most reviewers get their review samples directly from the manufacturer—no one has the budget to buy review samples, except Consumer Reports—and we often wonder if they send specially selected and tweaked samples; there's no way to know for sure. I don't know about other outlets, but when I was at Home Theater, we always insisted on production samples, not pre-production, so they were typically available in stores when we got them. And most of the time, they looked factory-packed—that is, wrapped in protective plastic in such a way that could not be perfectly redone once it had been removed, no matter how carefully. The only exception was if the TV had been reviewed by another outlet before us; most manufacturers have only a few review samples that are sent to several reviewers over time.

But I'm not sure that's evidence of coming off the factory floor. Wouldn't this scenario exercised by the Send-TVs-Out-To-Reviewers-Department be just as likely? :
  1. Pick a TV
  2. If TV isn't flawless, go back to step 1 (as many times as necessary)
  3. Send it to the part of the factory that wraps & ships, (or better: just wrap it yourself the same way and have it shipped c-a-r-e-f-u-l-l-y)

.......or simply tell the QA department not to let anything go by at all. But that seems considerably riskier.

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post #184 of 254 Old 04-07-2013, 12:14 AM
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So what do you guys suggest then if your primarily gonna be gaming on a TV like I am with my Xbox 360 and soon, PS4 or XBox 720? I have a lot of lighting coming into my living area during the day that I can limit somewhat with blinds and I can't really afford much more then $1,600 and i'd like to do 60" but no smaller then 55" I currently have a Sony 50" KDF-50E2000

And I don't care for 3D, it looks horrid, no matter what TV i've tried it on, its not worth paying extra for unless I don't have a choice to get a good gaming LCD/Plasma. I prefer buying from local Costco for the very leniet return/exchange policy and extended factory warranty and not to mention pricing *usually*
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post #185 of 254 Old 04-07-2013, 07:51 AM
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So what do you guys suggest then if your primarily gonna be gaming on a TV like I am with my Xbox 360 and soon, PS4 or XBox 720? I have a lot of lighting coming into my living area during the day that I can limit somewhat with blinds and I can't really afford much more then $1,600 and i'd like to do 60" but no smaller then 55" I currently have a Sony 50" KDF-50E2000

And I don't care for 3D, it looks horrid, no matter what TV i've tried it on, its not worth paying extra for unless I don't have a choice to get a good gaming LCD/Plasma. I prefer buying from local Costco for the very leniet return/exchange policy and extended factory warranty and not to mention pricing *usually*

Often (unfortunately) you cannot always get the best panel for your needs without the smart&3D coming along for the ride, which does pump up the price. Eh. The biggest problem in gaming is lag----even for TVs in supposed "game mode". Look at displaylag.com, or the thread on "lag wars" or whatever it's called. Tons of info on lag & good gaming TVs.

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post #186 of 254 Old 04-07-2013, 03:58 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by tgm1024 View Post


But I'm not sure that's evidence of coming off the factory floor. Wouldn't this scenario exercised by the Send-TVs-Out-To-Reviewers-Department be just as likely? :
  1. Pick a TV
  2. If TV isn't flawless, go back to step 1 (as many times as necessary)
  3. Send it to the part of the factory that wraps & ships, (or better: just wrap it yourself the same way and have it shipped c-a-r-e-f-u-l-l-y)

.......or simply tell the QA department not to let anything go by at all. But that seems considerably riskier.


You're right, manufacturers can do that. Unfortunately, there's no way to know if they are, and they sure ain't telling!


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post #187 of 254 Old 04-07-2013, 07:04 PM
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Wait guys till the fat lady sings! Means Sony 55 and 65 inch 4k sets to offer competition
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post #188 of 254 Old 04-12-2013, 06:42 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tgm1024 View Post

No.

CRT's usually had an outward facing curve to them that shrank the specular reflectance somewhat. But there are truly 3 things going on there:
  1. The curvature shrinking of the specular reflectance
  2. The shear size of the screen (a 32" CRT doesn't make more than a 32" mirror---worst case). smile.gif
  3. The fact that CRT's are *bright* AND *emissive* beasts, which in many cases stood the chance of better "blasting through" the reflection from behind regardless of angle.

Yes, LED-LCD's are bright enough to burn the back of your skull, but lose that dramatically when looked off-angle (it's a transmissive technology). Plasmas are emissive, but not bright. CRT's had 3 things going for them that today's high-glare flat-panels do not.

Who can forget that those bright emissve beasts got most of their output from people cranking up the contrast and the brightness which sunk the black level and made for a picture that was (YUCK). When properly adjusted that picture was more like a plasma or a good lcd. I never saw a CRT TV that did not benefit from room light control. Torch mode existed long before flat panels.

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post #189 of 254 Old 04-13-2013, 01:43 AM
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Every CRT television I ever saw was washed out by any incident sunlight on it. Period.

LCDs can often easily handle incident sunlight and my plasma can handle it just fine unless you are orthogonal to the incident light. If you are slightly off angle to the incident light, my plasma makes that disappear just fine too.

There is no difference in HDMI cables. If you can see the picture without visible dropouts or sparklies, the cable is working at 100%. No other cable will display a better version of that picture. You're simply wrong if you think there is a better digital cable than one that is already working.
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post #190 of 254 Old 04-13-2013, 09:38 AM
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Great thread!! I really appreciate the discussion being a newbee to the latest technology and plasmas.

I am in the market for a 60-65" (depends on final height..has to be 37" or smaller).

I don't care about it being "Smart"..I have a preamp to do that stuff.

I don't do gaming...old fart

3D is optional to me. I will have a front projection system that has that capability...if I ever choose to use it.

Streaming is also done via the preamp.

My room is moderately lit with no windows directly behind the seating area and only a sliding glass door to one side but it looks out on a covered patio so direct sunlight would be impossible.

Budget is under $2000

What do you suggest?
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post #191 of 254 Old 04-13-2013, 11:24 AM
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Originally Posted by rogo View Post

Every CRT television I ever saw was washed out by any incident sunlight on it. Period.

LCDs can often easily handle incident sunlight and my plasma can handle it just fine unless you are orthogonal to the incident light. If you are slightly off angle to the incident light, my plasma makes that disappear just fine too.

The wash-out effect is not what I'm talking about here. It was in reference to the glare. Look, as a software engineer from long ago (there are many of us here I'm sure), we spent 1/3rd of our lives fighting this very problem. Glare, or spectral reflectance, was what the poster was referring to,
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I guess I really don't understand the griping about screen reflections. Has everyone forgotten that we all used to have CRT's that were MUCH worse at handling reflections?
and CRT's handled that better ("period", IMO).

I several times been wearing a bright white shirt typing in front of a glossy screen FP (laptop or whatever happened to be glossy at the time) and wished that I had a CRT in front of me, because I've been in front of THOSE for years with a bright white shirt with far less reflection.

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post #192 of 254 Old 04-13-2013, 01:42 PM
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Originally Posted by tgm1024 View Post

The wash-out effect is not what I'm talking about here. It was in reference to the glare. Look, as a software engineer from long ago (there are many of us here I'm sure), we spent 1/3rd of our lives fighting this very problem. Glare, or spectral reflectance, was what the poster was referring to,
and CRT's handled that better ("period", IMO).

My comments apply generally the same to glare, although in that regard I find brighter LCDs no better than plasmas.

There is no difference in HDMI cables. If you can see the picture without visible dropouts or sparklies, the cable is working at 100%. No other cable will display a better version of that picture. You're simply wrong if you think there is a better digital cable than one that is already working.
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post #193 of 254 Old 04-13-2013, 02:19 PM
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Quote:
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tgm1024 View Post

The wash-out effect is not what I'm talking about here. It was in reference to the glare. Look, as a software engineer from long ago (there are many of us here I'm sure), we spent 1/3rd of our lives fighting this very problem. Glare, or spectral reflectance, was what the poster was referring to,
and CRT's handled that better ("period", IMO).

My comments apply generally the same to glare, although in that regard I find brighter LCDs no better than plasmas.

If plasmas were as bright, I'd speculate that they'd be "almost as good" (read "almost as less bad") at glare issues than CRTs, because then it's down to fact that the images are shrunk on CRTs because of the shape of the glass. And (as I pointed out up there ↑ somewhere) CRT TVs are smaller to begin with.

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post #194 of 254 Old 04-21-2013, 07:48 PM
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What about the Samsung UN50EH6000 LED?

500 gigs FTW.
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post #195 of 254 Old 04-25-2013, 02:01 AM
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And how does the LG 55LM8600 stack up?
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post #196 of 254 Old 04-25-2013, 10:42 AM
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And how does the LG 55LM8600 stack up?


So many times the complaints are:

Bleeeeed. And cloudy. Bleeeeed. And cloudy..... (somehow sung to the tune "My Sharona"...)

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post #197 of 254 Old 04-26-2013, 07:23 AM
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So for say, 1500 bucks, what's the best LED to get? 42 inch minimum.

500 gigs FTW.
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post #198 of 254 Old 04-26-2013, 07:48 AM
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So for say, 1500 bucks, what's the best LED to get? 42 inch minimum.


Smart? Passive/Active? Glossy/Matte?

Just stabbing in the dark, because I can't find any kdl-46HX850's for sale brand new or from a place with a good return policy, here's a KDL-55HX750 for ~$1435. (Amazon / FBA / Prime)

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post #199 of 254 Old 04-28-2013, 06:06 AM
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Smart? Passive/Active? Glossy/Matte?

Just stabbing in the dark, because I can't find any kdl-46HX850's for sale brand new or from a place with a good return policy, here's a KDL-55HX750 for ~$1435. (Amazon / FBA / Prime)

Speaking of LED TVs from Amazon, the 55HX950 is only $2300 shipped. How does this TV stack up against the 55VT50 ($1450 shipped from Amazon). I mainly watch movies in a dimly lit room (can be darkened completely, if necessary). I've never owned a plasma before and my real only concern is IR.

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post #200 of 254 Old 04-28-2013, 04:27 PM
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I have failed -- despite great effort -- to generate image retention on my VT50.

That said, I believe the Sony is question is an excellent LCD TV. The question is whether you value any of the other LCD attributes (daytime exceptional brightness, ability to use it with absolute disregard for static images like marathon gaming sessions) vs. the plasma attributes (much cheaper, likely better overall picture quality, viewing angles).

There is no difference in HDMI cables. If you can see the picture without visible dropouts or sparklies, the cable is working at 100%. No other cable will display a better version of that picture. You're simply wrong if you think there is a better digital cable than one that is already working.
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post #201 of 254 Old 04-29-2013, 06:04 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by rogo View Post

I have failed -- despite great effort -- to generate image retention on my VT50.

That said, I believe the Sony is question is an excellent LCD TV. The question is whether you value any of the other LCD attributes (daytime exceptional brightness, ability to use it with absolute disregard for static images like marathon gaming sessions) vs. the plasma attributes (much cheaper, likely better overall picture quality, viewing angles).


Well said!


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post #202 of 254 Old 04-30-2013, 06:57 AM
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Speaking of LED TVs from Amazon, the 55HX950 is only $2300 shipped. How does this TV stack up against the 55VT50 ($1450 shipped from Amazon). I mainly watch movies in a dimly lit room (can be darkened completely, if necessary). I've never owned a plasma before and my real only concern is IR.

I love the Sony HX950 and HX850 as far as LCD TVs go, but they pale in comparison to the ST50/GT50/VT50 for movie watching in a dim or dark room. I seriously considered getting a Sony LCD a couple of times and spent a lot of time playing with an HX950 at Magnolia and directly comparing it to a GT50 and VT50 in the same audition room. The Sony was sharp and crisp, and was bright (too bright?) but as soon as the scenes turned dark it's blacks attained a sort of glow and had a blueish tint, where the GT50 & VT50 were inky black and maintained excellent contrast. And the biggest deal breaker for me was as soon as i moved off to the side more than say 30 degrees the Sony's blacks quickly started to look gray and it started to lose contrast.

I could live with the Sony if i were the only one watching it as i never watch movies by myself - i tend to watch primetime shows, a lot of news programming, and on the weekends i watch a little sports and a LOT of auto racing and for these uses a good LCD would be just fine for me. But in those times where the family watches a movie at night it's clear to me (and most other people) that a good Plasma will always look a lot better.

As for IR, i don't discount the people that are experiencing persistent IR but despite watching a ton of news and having Speed channel up on my TV for hours and hours i'm only getting a little IR and it goes away within seconds or minutes after switching to other full screen content. IR is pretty much a non-issue on my GT50.

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post #203 of 254 Old 04-30-2013, 08:21 AM
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I have to wonder though if the people with predominantly no-IR also have young kids capable of turning anything on and leaving it there.....are there adequate protections within the TV should, say, pillar boxes be on for too long?

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post #204 of 254 Old 04-30-2013, 02:51 PM
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Scott, I wanted to give you some positive follow-up to one of your recommendations. Just over a year ago, I spoke with you on air while you were hosting Leo's show. I asked if you had personally viewed the Elite 60" HDTV. You and your on air partner said you had both viewed the 70" and were very impressed, and expected the 60" to perform equally well. Because I had read numerous extensive excellent reviews of the Elite, all I was waiting for before buying one was speaking directly with you.

I have had my 60" for over a year now and could not be more pleased with it. The reviews (and you) were absolutely correct.

Just wanted you to hear back from a long time listener and reader of yours.
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post #205 of 254 Old 05-01-2013, 07:18 PM
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Quote:
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I have failed -- despite great effort -- to generate image retention on my VT50.

Likewise with my now 12 year old Panasonic plasma. It is an early gen (obviously) and plasma was supposed to be even more susceptible to burn in at that time. Yet after all these years of
treating it like any other TV, tons of letterboxed movies, sports, news channels, kids playing games, I see no burn-in issues. It's lasted better (maintaining image quality), longer than the Panasonic 27" CRT it replaced.

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post #206 of 254 Old 05-03-2013, 01:29 AM
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So many times the complaints are:

Bleeeeed. And cloudy. Bleeeeed. And cloudy..... (somehow sung to the tune "My Sharona"...)

Don't break my heart my achy breaky heart... Alright I sold it I really liked the bezel but I guess I'm gonna wait for a nice sale on the ST or Vizio Exx1i-A3 thanks.
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post #207 of 254 Old 05-03-2013, 03:25 PM
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Just thought I'd chime in to say I'm enjoying this thread....kudos to Scott for starting it and for his list of good flat panels. I'm eagerly anticipating the Flat Panel Shootout later this month and heard, through the grapevine, that it was going to be streamed for us "Flat Panel Enthusiasts." I hope it's not just a rumor.

I must confess I'm a dyed-in-the-wool plasma lover, even though I do have a very good Samsung LCD in my living room. I only watch it with my wife (who prefers staying out of my "Man Cave")....95% of the time I'm glued to my Pioneer Elite KURO where I enjoy a more "natural" picture and superb black levels (though I realize LCDs have come a long way with blacks and shadow details...especially sets like the Sharp Elite). I have a couple of wing chairs, so viewing angles are vital to me, so this rules out most LCDs.

Like many, I'm waiting for OLED displays to become marketable (and affordable), but that may be several years down the road. If my KURO met its demise I'd more than likely get the Panny VT50 (or the upcoming ZT model).

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post #208 of 254 Old 05-03-2013, 03:38 PM
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^^^^^

I forgot to add that I've had my KURO for 4 years and I've never once experienced IR...and I'm a very critical viewer.

Pioneer Kuro Elite PRO-151FD....Pioneer Elite BDP-05....Onkyo TX-NR717

Cambridge Soundworks MC305 Fronts & Center...Cambridge Soundworks Ambiance Surrounds....SVS PC12-NSD
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post #209 of 254 Old 05-03-2013, 04:42 PM
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Wish I was gutsy enough to try a plasma. But I just *know* I'll be the one to get the buzzing / burning one.

Grow milkweed. The Monarch Butterfly requires it, and its numbers are dwindling fast.
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post #210 of 254 Old 05-03-2013, 05:58 PM
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Costco has a 90 day return policy and Amazon is very flexible with their 30 day return policy. If it's going to buzz it will do so immediately or certainly within 30 days. Same with IR.
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