Is LCD doomed without Full array backlighting? - Page 2 - AVS Forum
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post #31 of 58 Old 07-19-2013, 05:15 PM
 
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Originally Posted by Chronoptimist View Post

3. Most "videophile" plasma owners have never evaluated a high end LCD, looked critically at their own display, or have any intention to.

I would argue that the only thing anyone that is not a videophile would notice when switching from plasma to lcd is that the viewing angles aren't as good.
Let's just ignore that little shootout that took place a mere 2 months ago, and then this alternate universe can be fully realized. Yes, yes, I admit these were in a controlled lighting environment, calibrated, and displaying the same content at the same time.
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post #32 of 58 Old 07-19-2013, 06:51 PM
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Originally Posted by vinnie97 View Post

Let's just ignore that little shootout that took place a mere 2 months ago, and then this alternate universe can be fully realized. Yes, yes, I admit these were in a controlled lighting environment, calibrated, and displaying the same content at the same time.
If that was the majority of plasma owning "videophiles" in attendance, no wonder they're on the way out.
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post #33 of 58 Old 07-19-2013, 09:26 PM - Thread Starter
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What the general public likes means nothing.

The same people that like LCD are the same people that have pink plastic flamingos in their yards==crushed velvet Elvis Presleys on the walls of their living rooms--toilet paper radios--and the singing bass in their dens.

How many trillio times does LCD have to suck before the retards of the world can see it?

Did you know that Thunderbird is the world's greatest selling wine? Do you think it is reviewed in Wine Afficianado?

Of course not!

But here you always here the lame retort--since the public likes it it must be GOOD ENOUGH!

If that isn't an example of the LCD Borg sales force--I don't know what is!
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post #34 of 58 Old 07-20-2013, 08:51 AM
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Originally Posted by andy sullivan View Post

Saying that the general public prefers LCD is kind of a misnomer. Considering that only three companies offer plasma and none below the 50" size.

 

I'm sorry Andy, but that part of what you said (not the other) is entirely the cart before the horse.  That's like saying "Nobody uses Rt. 3, it's so crowded".

 

The *reason* no one is making plasma is because "the general public" isn't buying it.  It's not the case that the general public isn't buying it because no one is making it.

 

Or did I misread you?


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post #35 of 58 Old 07-22-2013, 11:29 AM - Thread Starter
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The reason that more LCDs are produced than plasma is that LCD margins are larger than plasma margins. You can make more money selling crap than quality--the general public that shops at Wal-mart doesn't know the difference.
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post #36 of 58 Old 07-22-2013, 01:17 PM
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Originally Posted by Artwood View Post

The reason that more LCDs are produced than plasma is that LCD margins are larger than plasma margins. You can make more money selling crap than quality--the general public that shops at Wal-mart doesn't know the difference.

 

LCD margins would not matter the slightest bit if there wasn't public demand in the first place.

 

Or put another way (also competing with your statement): Better margins at manufacture means that a manufacturer can lower prices further and remain profitable at retail.

 

Or a 3rd way (also in competition against your statement): The public won't buy crap unless the crap were good enough (given all metrics available, not just PQ, because PQ isn't the sum total of what sells a TV).


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post #37 of 58 Old 07-30-2013, 01:01 AM - Thread Starter
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The third point encapsulates everything that is wrong with this video enthusiast forum--the defense of CRAP being good enough!

Real video enthusiasts know that just because a display sells DOES NOT mean it is good enough!

It means that the masses are stupid enough to buy it!

The masses have bought many things in history--suffice it to say that everything they bought WASN'T good enough!
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post #38 of 58 Old 07-30-2013, 04:31 AM
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Art,

Only you can save humanity from itself. Round them all up and send them to Artwood Reeducation Camps!
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post #39 of 58 Old 07-30-2013, 04:57 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Artwood View Post

What the general public likes means nothing.

The same people that like LCD are the same people that have pink plastic flamingos in their yards==crushed velvet Elvis Presleys on the walls of their living rooms--toilet paper radios--and the singing bass in their dens.

How many trillio times does LCD have to suck before the retards of the world can see it?

Did you know that Thunderbird is the world's greatest selling wine? Do you think it is reviewed in Wine Afficianado?

Of course not!

But here you always here the lame retort--since the public likes it it must be GOOD ENOUGH!

If that isn't an example of the LCD Borg sales force--I don't know what is!

Art

with respect, I think you go too far:

I tell you that the world will not end if there are no more plasma or OLED sets, and not every LCD owner has pink flamingos in his yard
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post #40 of 58 Old 08-10-2013, 01:13 AM
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You shouldn t have 'waited for the price to drop'. I got my FALD (since thats what we re calling it now) for a great price and have awesome picture quality everyday. TV is an investment. You use it everyday.
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post #41 of 58 Old 08-10-2013, 03:16 AM
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I think most of us could live quite comfortablyy with a 4k Fald
If Fald lcds return to the marketplace and plasmas diminish

neflixis our nemesis
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post #42 of 58 Old 08-12-2013, 10:43 PM - Thread Starter
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Full Array is not being produced. Pink Flamingoes are.

LCD quality is going backwards--INCLUDING 4K.

Anyone want to predict when 4K LCD quality will be better than Sharp Eilte LCD quality?

See the problem isn't just the death of plasma--it is also the REGRESSION of LCD and the fantasy of OLED which is not happening.

When DLP was dying the real video prophets knew what the song was saying--Somewhere over the rainbow flamingoes lie!
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post #43 of 58 Old 08-13-2013, 07:19 AM
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What people seem to like is big numbers and small prices. LCDs tout their ridiculously huge dynamic contrast ratios, things like "4K," big display sizes, and appear super bright with "good" blacks to most people in the show room. With a smaller price.

I've never seen a store showing a plasma in a proper setting. I hardly see plasmas at stores... With fewer available, less people will buy them. Yes, fewer are available because fewer buy them, but fewer also buy them because fewer are available...

I wouldn't worry. There will always be videophiles, and so someone will always cater to that market. It's a much smaller market than the general populace, so there will be fewer options, but there will always be options and PQ will continue to improve. Videophiles go for plasmas in larger numbers over full-array LCDs, I would think. So, they'll continue to produce the plasmas for the niche videophile market and edge-lit for everyone else -- which is cheaper to produce (higher margins) and has that fancy "LED" thing they can throw in the name.

I don't really care about LCD. I don't think it's doomed, though. Until LCDs have comparable quality for the price, plasmas will continue to exist. LCDs are cheap and there is a lot of production capacity for them.

I do look forward to OLED, though...
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post #44 of 58 Old 08-14-2013, 06:38 AM
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Originally Posted by Tapioca Cold View Post

You shouldn t have 'waited for the price to drop'. I got my FALD (since thats what we re calling it now) for a great price and have awesome picture quality everyday. TV is an investment. You use it everyday.
I smile everyday when I look up at my beautiful Sony 55HX929 on the wall and know I purchased it for $2700 out the door before Sony enacted there one price policy for online and brick and mortar stores.
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post #45 of 58 Old 08-26-2013, 03:44 PM
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Don't underestimate the importance of size (heh). My "good enough" 75" LCD provides a FAR greater overall level of enjoyment and immersion than does my d-nice'd Pioneer 6020 even thought the PQ on the latter is obviously better. I understand that the market trends were in place before Sharp flooded the market with 70" lcds, but my current quandary is setting money aside for a "good enough" 84" 4K set in a couple years.

And before you say PROJECTORBLARG, I'm a former pj guy too. 110" diagonal. Just doesn't work in my current room and with our current viewing habits.

Size, combined with flexibility and convenience (and price...) matters.

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post #46 of 58 Old 08-29-2013, 01:10 PM
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Originally Posted by tgm1024 View Post

I don't agree with that at all.  Here's how I'd rephrase that (into two statements):
  • Most plasma owners will go LCD and be upset with the decrease in PQ.
  • Most videophile plasma owners will never go LCD.

We're not talking about AVSers here.  We're talking about the general public.

I have a 7 year old Vizio plasma, VM60-p. I'm not going to miss anything going to a led LCD from todays's technology, am I?

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post #47 of 58 Old 08-29-2013, 05:52 PM
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Originally Posted by Jasonn B View Post
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by tgm1024 View Post

I don't agree with that at all.  Here's how I'd rephrase that (into two statements):
  • Most plasma owners will go LCD and be upset with the decrease in PQ.
  • Most videophile plasma owners will never go LCD.

We're not talking about AVSers here.  We're talking about the general public.

I have a 7 year old Vizio plasma, VM60-p. I'm not going to miss anything going to a led LCD from todays's technology, am I?

 

I'm the wrong one to ask, but I'm sure folks are going to chime in here loudly soon.....


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post #48 of 58 Old 08-29-2013, 08:54 PM
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Originally Posted by Jasonn B View Post

I have a 7 year old Vizio plasma, VM60-p. I'm not going to miss anything going to a led LCD from todays's technology, am I?
You may find viewing angle and uniformity to be a problem, depending on your viewing conditions and the set you buy. Overall, going from a 7 year old plasma to a modern LCD should be an improvement though.
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post #49 of 58 Old 08-30-2013, 04:25 AM - Thread Starter
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I believe that many people would come to the US if LCD was against the law!
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post #50 of 58 Old 09-03-2013, 01:48 PM
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Originally Posted by anthonymoody View Post

Don't underestimate the importance of size (heh). My "good enough" 75" LCD provides a FAR greater overall level of enjoyment and immersion than does my d-nice'd Pioneer 6020 even thought the PQ on the latter is obviously better. I understand that the market trends were in place before Sharp flooded the market with 70" lcds, but my current quandary is setting money aside for a "good enough" 84" 4K set in a couple years.

And before you say PROJECTORBLARG, I'm a former pj guy too. 110" diagonal. Just doesn't work in my current room and with our current viewing habits.

Size, combined with flexibility and convenience (and price...) matters.

I went with my Sharp 70LE732 just because of the size. (full array, but no local dimming) Now I am just waiting for the 90" models to drop to the same price range for my next upgrade.

The sub par input lag with games is a letdown, but it is hard to argue with the PQ that it can throw out, no Plasma can match it in my viewing environment. (much as I may want one for late night gaming)

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post #51 of 58 Old 09-26-2013, 02:26 AM
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Originally Posted by Chronoptimist View Post

3. Most "videophile" plasma owners have never evaluated a high end LCD, looked critically at their own display, or have any intention to.

I would argue that the only thing anyone that is not a videophile would notice when switching from plasma to lcd is that the viewing angles aren't as good - if they even notice that. The general public prefers LCD.
The public wants cheap and flat and a lot of people already got their flat panel. TV market is in trouble as a whole. The boom days are over.

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post #52 of 58 Old 09-27-2013, 11:22 AM
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I calibrate displays for a living, but I dumped my plasma for an edge lit LCD.

Why? Because my 720p plasma heated up the whole bedroom and chewed up 300watts of power. Not that I didn't like it's picture, it was superb!
The same size LCD is a compromise, but uses LESS than 40 watts of power, is 1080p and also makes a great computer monitor that I don't worry AT ALL about leaving it running all day without burn in.

Besides, it's my bedroom set. In the Den, I enjoy a 110" front projection setup.

Love it or hate it, LCD has it's place. Still holding my breath on OLED. Time will tell.

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post #53 of 58 Old 09-30-2013, 03:30 PM
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I think most of us are rational enough to realize that videophile considerations do not apply (a) on bedroom TVs (b) anyplace you still had a 720p set running in 2013. It can't have been a very serious viewing area for you if it was small enough to be heated by a 300 watt TV (that would be a small space; my bedroom can't easily be heated by a 1500 watt heater and it's not gargantuan) and yet had a TV with those specs.

Completely agree with you on power consumption, by the way. My one slight regret with buying a 2012 plasma is that even though the power consumption is much improved over my 2006 plasma, it's still a pig compared to a modern LCD. Not sure how I would've solved the off-axis problem in my family room with any current high-quality LCD, though. Ah well.

There is no difference in HDMI cables. If you can see the picture without visible dropouts or sparklies, the cable is working at 100%. No other cable will display a better version of that picture. You're simply wrong if you think there is a better digital cable than one that is already working.
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post #54 of 58 Old 09-30-2013, 07:07 PM
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Originally Posted by rogo View Post

I think most of us are rational enough to realize that videophile considerations do not apply . . . on bedroom TVs . . .
I rationally and respectfully disagree that videophile considerations do not apply in the bedroom. No matter what video device I watch, wherever I am watching it, I am concerned about and appreciate video quality! This goes for my 4 year old Samsung (full array local dimming) LN55A950 mounted on my bedroom wall, and extends to my recently purchased Ipod Touch.< opinion/ >
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post #55 of 58 Old 09-30-2013, 10:49 PM
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I rationally and respectfully disagree that videophile considerations do not apply in the bedroom. No matter what video device I watch, wherever I am watching it, I am concerned about and appreciate video quality! This goes for my 4 year old Samsung (full array local dimming) LN55A950 mounted on my bedroom wall, and extends to my recently purchased Ipod Touch.< opinion/ >

The guy above has a 720p in his bedroom. It's not a videophile-quality TV. Period.

Yours might well be.

There is no difference in HDMI cables. If you can see the picture without visible dropouts or sparklies, the cable is working at 100%. No other cable will display a better version of that picture. You're simply wrong if you think there is a better digital cable than one that is already working.
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post #56 of 58 Old 10-01-2013, 10:55 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Robin View Post

I rationally and respectfully disagree that videophile considerations do not apply in the bedroom. No matter what video device I watch, wherever I am watching it, I am concerned about and appreciate video quality! This goes for my 4 year old Samsung (full array local dimming) LN55A950 mounted on my bedroom wall, and extends to my recently purchased Ipod Touch.< opinion/ >
I agree - if I'm going to give up my free time to watch something, it has to look good.

Just recently, I was looking to buy a smaller display and anything under 24" or so is just shockingly bad - and it really doesn't have to be.
The display on my Retina MacBook Pro is pretty nice, so good displays exist at that size; just not sold as stand-alone products in TVs or Monitors.
It got to the point that I was trying to find an XEL-1 or 15EL9500, but it seems that anyone with one wants to hold onto it. I still regret missing out on Amazon clearing their stock of the 15EL9500.

The only really good display under 24" or so these days is a Sony PVM1741A, but being broadcast monitors they're fairly chunky, and that's larger than I wanted - I was really looking for something around 13".
And of course as much as I care about image quality, I'm not rich or crazy enough to spend $3700 on a display that size just to watch content on.

I think what I'm probably going to end up with for now, is one of Microsoft's new Surface tablets. They're 1080p native, so video won't be scaled, and they have the lowest reflectivity of any tablet due to the panel being optically bonded to the glass.
It's not exactly what I was looking for, but with a stand built in, and a dock coming soon, it seems like the best solution available right now.
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The guy above has a 720p in his bedroom. It's not a videophile-quality TV. Period.
Pioneer made 720p Kuros, for what it's worth.
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post #57 of 58 Old 10-01-2013, 11:59 AM
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Originally Posted by rogo 
The guy above has a 720p in his bedroom. It's not a videophile-quality TV. Period.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chronoptimist 
Pioneer made 720p Kuros, for what it's worth.
The guy above had a 720p Plasma in his bedroom. He dumped his Plasma for a 1080p Edge Lit LED smile.gif
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post #58 of 58 Old 10-01-2013, 02:06 PM
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The guy above had a 720p Plasma in his bedroom. He dumped his Plasma for a 1080p Edge Lit LED smile.gif

I am going to let this bit of humorous trolling remain unfed.

There is no difference in HDMI cables. If you can see the picture without visible dropouts or sparklies, the cable is working at 100%. No other cable will display a better version of that picture. You're simply wrong if you think there is a better digital cable than one that is already working.
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