4 Reasons the 3D TV Movement is Already Dead - Page 10 - AVS Forum
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post #271 of 398 Old 10-24-2013, 09:36 PM
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Originally Posted by mo949 View Post

For the movement to be dead you would start to see the new tv products reflecting that, but so far all the new models I've seen are 3dTvs.

They won't be removing the 3-D feature because it's bill of materials is essentially zero. The fact it's unused on the vast majority of 3D-capable TVs isn't good for "the movement."
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Also, the resident AVS bluray reviewer gets a bit upset it seems when the studios only send him the 2D version of a movie when there is a 3D version of it available as well.

One guy isn't a movement either
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And the simple fact is that retail sales of 3D BDs are increasing at a good rate.

I think we've dispensed with that data handily. It proves a tiny number of people are buying a tiny amount of 3D. Nothing more.

There is no difference in HDMI cables. If you can see the picture without visible dropouts or sparklies, the cable is working at 100%. No other cable will display a better version of that picture. You're simply wrong if you think there is a better digital cable than one that is already working. (Oh, and plasma didn't die because of logistics problems, nor does OLED ship in big boxes because it comes from Korea.)
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post #272 of 398 Old 10-25-2013, 04:44 AM
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And the simple fact is that retail sales of 3D BDs are increasing at a good rate.

I think we've dispensed with that data handily. It proves a tiny number of people are buying a tiny amount of 3D. Nothing more.
Handy only to the biased.

By that yardstick, the HD movement must be dead since HD has been available for over a decade but DVD sales still account for a very large percentage of physical media sales.

As I've already mentioned, 3 years after HD was introduced, the same types of naysayers were prattling on about "HD is dead!", just like the folks proclaiming "2012 is the end of the world!", and when their pathetic forecasting skills are proven wrong yet again, they just find something else to project their doom and gloom on.



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post #273 of 398 Old 10-25-2013, 05:30 AM
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Originally Posted by djbluemax1 View Post

As I've already mentioned, 3 years after HD was introduced, the same types of naysayers were prattling on about "HD is dead!",

 

I remember a pretty big format war in the beginning regarding blu-ray vs. HD DVD, but when did people say HD was dead?


Beware the statistical correlations that sound like they're indicative of something. Drowning deaths are tightly correlated to ice cream consumption. In fact, be wary of any statistic that is stated as if it comes with a self-evident conclusion: there is no such thing.
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post #274 of 398 Old 10-25-2013, 06:19 AM
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Originally Posted by rogo View Post

I think we've dispensed with that data handily. It proves a tiny number of people are buying a tiny amount of 3D. Nothing more.

 

Curious.  What's the bottom line though in your opinion?  That 3D TV will vanish in some number of years, or that it'll stay a solid niche (until glasses free or some other technology takes off), or that it'll stay a solid niche anyway?

 

And does that apply to theater?


Beware the statistical correlations that sound like they're indicative of something. Drowning deaths are tightly correlated to ice cream consumption. In fact, be wary of any statistic that is stated as if it comes with a self-evident conclusion: there is no such thing.
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post #275 of 398 Old 10-25-2013, 08:07 AM
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Originally Posted by djbluemax1 
As I've already mentioned, 3 years after HD was introduced, the same types of naysayers were prattling on about "HD is dead!",
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Originally Posted by tmg1024 
I remember a pretty big format war in the beginning regarding blu-ray vs. HD DVD, but when did people say HD was dead?
right. Nobody said HD is dead. Folks are saying blu-ray is dead all the time.
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post #276 of 398 Old 10-25-2013, 08:36 AM
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Originally Posted by mo949 View Post

For the movement to be dead you would start to see the new tv products reflecting that, but so far all the new models I've seen are 3dTvs.

They won't be removing the 3-D feature because it's bill of materials is essentially zero. The fact it's unused on the vast majority of 3D-capable TVs isn't good for "the movement."
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Also, the resident AVS bluray reviewer gets a bit upset it seems when the studios only send him the 2D version of a movie when there is a 3D version of it available as well.

One guy isn't a movement either

- you sound like you are implying it doesn't cost them anything to have that feature in their sets and they just keep tacking on the software product they already developed....all I see are news and reviews talking about further developments and methods of the feature OTOH.


- I guess I could also take your perspective from this side and think of it as "well you are just one person saying the 3d movement is dead". But I'll just view it as 1 more prominent source joining the movement instead biggrin.gif
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post #277 of 398 Old 11-02-2013, 04:31 AM
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Curious.  What's the bottom line though in your opinion?

I've been curious as well. We've been presented with easily dubious evidence as to 2D vs 3D Blu-ray pricing. Not a word from rogo. But present any good news for 3D, and rogo has jumped on every possibility that it might be wrong. There's value in skepticism, but not when it's one-sided.
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post #278 of 398 Old 11-02-2013, 05:53 AM
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If retailers stop caring 3d it will vanish.

And when already in the past 1 major and 1 minor release was impossible to find. I end up ordering RIPD through amazon because no B&M stores had it.

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post #279 of 398 Old 11-02-2013, 07:02 PM
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Originally Posted by Airion View Post

I've been curious as well. We've been presented with easily dubious evidence as to 2D vs 3D Blu-ray pricing. Not a word from rogo. But present any good news for 3D, and rogo has jumped on every possibility that it might be wrong. There's value in skepticism, but not when it's one-sided.

Listen, you want to accuse me of something, maybe you ought to send me a PM or something. I don't read every thread.

And, honestly, I don't have any clue what I'm even supposed to be responding to that's supposed to be good news or bad news. You have an accusation in there, but I can't even parse it.

What's the bottom line? 3-D in the home is basically dead. Can it continue to exist at these levels? Barely. I suspect there will be even fewer releases not more of them. So, sure, you want to call that a niche, call it a niche. Solid? No. Does glasses-free 3-D change this? Sure. Does it change it as much as some think? I doubt it's as much as many believe. If we get a true, 3-D experience minus glasses, that would be amazing. It's probably decades away, if it comes. It's not coming from flat-panel screens. The glasses free from those will be a novelty. Better than now, perhaps as good as the glasses quality we currently have by 2020. A game changer for 3-D in the home? No.

As for theaters, it's here and staying. But if you want me out on a limb, I'll go. The number of 3-D releases will start to fall. Maybe not in 2014, but soon enough. Consumer rejection of the premiums for mediocre 3-D will lead studios to reconsider the force-feeding of it, especially as theater owners push back with financial data showing that it's losing everyone real money. That doesn't mean it's going away, just that it will begin to get boxed into to fewer features where it ultimately gets done better and becomes more of an "event" and less of a "oh, this is also in crappy, overpriced 3-D."
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If retailers stop caring 3d it will vanish.

And when already in the past 1 major and 1 minor release was impossible to find. I end up ordering RIPD through amazon because no B&M stores had it.

That's a problem on many levels.

One, it's terrible for a format when you can't just buy it. (Happened to me with Life of Pi.)

Two, RIPD? Really?

There is no difference in HDMI cables. If you can see the picture without visible dropouts or sparklies, the cable is working at 100%. No other cable will display a better version of that picture. You're simply wrong if you think there is a better digital cable than one that is already working. (Oh, and plasma didn't die because of logistics problems, nor does OLED ship in big boxes because it comes from Korea.)
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post #280 of 398 Old 11-02-2013, 07:48 PM
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Originally Posted by rogo View Post

Listen, you want to accuse me of something, maybe you ought to send me a PM or something. I don't read every thread.

And, honestly, I don't have any clue what I'm even supposed to be responding to that's supposed to be good news or bad news. You have an accusation in there, but I can't even parse it.

The accusation is that I think you're largely assessing the data with a bias against 3D. For example, when discussing the increase in 3D Blu-ray sales, you focus on the fact that it's a small number in absolute terms. I don't disagree, and I think it's an important point. At the same time, it IS positive data for 3D in the home, and I think you're probably reducing it too much with just "a tiny number of people are buying a tiny amount of 3D. Nothing more." Likewise, I think your assessment that 3D is "basically dead" in the home doesn't fit well with the fact that 3D Blu-ray sales are increasing.

Of course, I'm a big fan of 3D myself (though games more than movies), and I want the format to survive and have some success. I try to separate what I want to happen with what I think actually will happen, but of course sometimes we can't see our own biases.


On another point of curiosity, why do you think 4K glasses free 3D flat panels will still be a novelty? How would a "true 3D" display be so much different? And what would be the difference between the glasses free displays that are coming versus a hypothetical "true 3D" display? I don't mean to accuse you of anything nefarious here, I'm just genuinely curious what your thinking is about them.
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post #281 of 398 Old 11-03-2013, 10:52 AM
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Is it positive for 3-D in the home? How do you know? It appears that the proportion of 3-D sets that have viewed 3-D content in the home may actually be falling. I don't see how you view this as a positive, I sure don't.

The absolute rise in 3-D sales is something that appears to be a net good, but may merely represent the huge installed base of 3-D capable TVs. I don't see that it proves anything -- objectively -- beyond that some very small number of people like the format and want to enjoy it at home. That's fine, but it doesn't really make it a business. Also, there is at least some evidence that some of the 3-D sales are going to people that didn't even want the 3-D version. Whether that's because they are priced the same or simply because they put the wrong version in their Amazon cart is irrelevant; it's certainly happening. Over the vast number of BluRay sales, that is a lot of "fake" 3-D sales.

Just because something is increasing, doesn't mean it's necessarily gaining in popularity or not dying. The iPhone is increasing in sales, but it's falling in popularity (globally, it's still gaining in the U.S. -- all based on data, not opinion). While 3-D might be increasing in terms of BluRay sales, it's not increasing in terms of video hours viewed in the home proportionally. It's decreasing.

As for glasses-free panels, have you seen them? They are not that good. They have sweet-spot issues. They will improve, but they will never be great. They are no more "immersive" than existing 3-D screens that use glasses. That is to say, they are screens. You are not in a 3-D world. You don't feel like "you are there".

The 3-D revolution, if it ever comes, will be created by making one feel present. That's a breakthrough. Whether that's done via a much, much, much better version of Oculus Rift (which is so disconnecting from the real world, that it makes you feel like you are locked inside another world, not transported to one) or a holographic-style "display" is something for future engineers to develop and determine. But a 2-D display is not that thing. And the existing methods of glasses-free tech are so many orders of magnitude removed from offering a 3-D experience, they are barely worth discussing. What they offer is a 3-D image, which is inherently nothing more than a geegaw, something to ogle. It's why even in the movies, consumers are saying, "I'll save my three bucks on this one" except when it's a "Gravity" or equivalent.

(Incidentally, we didn't feel like we were in space in Gravity, but it was stunning enough just to watch it was worth it. In Star Trek: Into Darkness, we actually felt like we were on the planet with Kirk in the opening scene -- and never again during the whole film, sadly -- at least in a theater. Home TV screen sizes are a limiting factor, but so is the fact that home screens are 2-D things on a wall. Glasses or not, they are not more than a thing to look at, and as such will have limited appeal. When you can buy technology that gives you a front-row seat at the Staples Center, people will pay $10,000 for that. In an instant.)

There is no difference in HDMI cables. If you can see the picture without visible dropouts or sparklies, the cable is working at 100%. No other cable will display a better version of that picture. You're simply wrong if you think there is a better digital cable than one that is already working. (Oh, and plasma didn't die because of logistics problems, nor does OLED ship in big boxes because it comes from Korea.)
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post #282 of 398 Old 11-03-2013, 01:27 PM
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There we go, trying to skew the numbers to support a personal agenda again.

A rise in 3D software sales is a rise in 3D software sales, pure and simple. Trying to skew opinions by claiming that it's due to the increased saturation of 3D sets in homes doesn't do any good because all it says is that as more consumers acquire 3D capable displays, more of them will buy 3D BDs.

The REAL display of bias is when you state that "there is at least some evidence that some 3D sales are going to people who didn't even want the 3D version in the first place". Some evidence? From whom? The ONE guy who anecdotally mentioned it and has since admitted that his experiences are due to bargain hunting for USED BDs? Used BD sales don't even count in the stats and figures as those are from NEW retail sales as you well know, but choose to ignore if it doesn't side with your agenda. Way to grasp at straws to try to support your bias. THIS is what Airion was talking about.

BTW, WHERE have you seen 3D BDs retailing (that's NEW RETAIL, NOT USED) for the same or lower prices as the 2D versions? Do tell, because ALL of us 3D fans will be happily flocking there for 3D releases. Guess what, it doesn't happen. We'd have heard of it by now if it did.

AND on top of it all, to grasp at that anecdotal straw that has been proven false and to suddenly make the jump to, "that is a lot of fake 3D sales". 'Nuff said. I think anyone with decent reading comprehension and deduction can obviously see the bias.


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post #283 of 398 Old 11-03-2013, 01:59 PM
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I have never watched a 3D movie or show in the theater or in the home, but I still think that it will probably survive and grow, especially among Gamers. There are not a lot of 3D blu-ray movies available, and the vast majority of those that are, appeared to be of the CGI animation category. Perhaps that is why I have not yet felt the need to go see one of them. I may eventually, but I do not begrudge all those who love their 3D viewing experience. Live and let live is what I say.

Their is a new glasses free technology coming in the next year or so, that looks very promising, and it just might be a game changer for getting more people to watch 3D in their homes.

http://www.flatpanelshd.com/news.php?subaction=showfull&id=1376292289

"A new glasses-free 3D technology called Ultra-D has received much praise from the first people who have seen it in action. One of the TV folks said that it is "good enough to give me goose bumps during a 3D demonstration of Life of Pi". The first TVs with Ultra D will be out by year’s end.

A company called Stream TV hopes to change glasses-free 3D technology with their Ultra D technology. The technology was first exhibited at CES but has been refined a lot in recent months. It works on both LCD/LED and OLED TVs and can reproduce 3D without any need for 3D glasses. It is reported that the 3D effect is upheld from all angles, near and far.

One of the first TV industry observers to experience the technology in action is Mark Henninger from AVSforum. He says, "I have never seen anything like it" and that the 3D effect was "good enough to give me goose bumps during a 3D demonstration of Life of Pi". He generally praises the 3D experience and points out only very few weaknesses.

The technology utilizes the extremely high 4K resolution, where enough pixels are available to create the illusion of 3D. 3D images on the TV are not rendered in full 4K resolution but are more detailed than Full HD, according to Stream TV. Additionally, Ultra D requires a chip in the TV that takes care of image processing, and a thin film in front of the TV that spreads light. The film does not affect 2D picture quality, viewing angles or brightness of the TV panel, according to the company.

Ultra D will be integrated into the first TVs before 2013 ends. More specifically in Chinese Hisense’s new Ultra HD TVs that will be available in USA and other markets in 50, 58 and 65 inch sizes. The technology is also heading for a 31-inch 4K PC monitor."

So there is something very positive for 3D lovers to look forward to. Hell, if it turns out to be nearly as good as it is being described, I will probably want to own such a set.
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post #284 of 398 Old 11-03-2013, 02:13 PM
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Originally Posted by rogo View Post
 
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I've been curious as well. We've been presented with easily dubious evidence as to 2D vs 3D Blu-ray pricing. Not a word from rogo. But present any good news for 3D, and rogo has jumped on every possibility that it might be wrong. There's value in skepticism, but not when it's one-sided.

Listen, you want to accuse me of something, maybe you ought to send me a PM or something. I don't read every thread.

And, honestly, I don't have any clue what I'm even supposed to be responding to that's supposed to be good news or bad news. You have an accusation in there, but I can't even parse it.

What's the bottom line? 3-D in the home is basically dead. Can it continue to exist at these levels? Barely. I suspect there will be even fewer releases not more of them. So, sure, you want to call that a niche, call it a niche. Solid? No. Does glasses-free 3-D change this? Sure. Does it change it as much as some think? I doubt it's as much as many believe. If we get a true, 3-D experience minus glasses, that would be amazing. It's probably decades away, if it comes. It's not coming from flat-panel screens. The glasses free from those will be a novelty. Better than now, perhaps as good as the glasses quality we currently have by 2020. A game changer for 3-D in the home? No.

As for theaters, it's here and staying. But if you want me out on a limb, I'll go. The number of 3-D releases will start to fall. Maybe not in 2014, but soon enough. Consumer rejection of the premiums for mediocre 3-D will lead studios to reconsider the force-feeding of it, especially as theater owners push back with financial data showing that it's losing everyone real money. That doesn't mean it's going away, just that it will begin to get boxed into to fewer features where it ultimately gets done better and becomes more of an "event" and less of a "oh, this is also in crappy, overpriced 3-D."

 

Thanks for your assessment.  For the record, when I (I can only speak for myself) asked what the bottom line position was, it wasn't to attempt to somehow put you on the spot or to defeat your position or catch you in an inconsistency. I was just curious if you had a series of observations, or a series of observations that had coalesced into a prediction.  Either was totally ok, I was just curious.

 

I have a differing opinion of what the 3D numbers might mean, but I don't put you in the category "supporting a personal bias" or other words to that effect.


Beware the statistical correlations that sound like they're indicative of something. Drowning deaths are tightly correlated to ice cream consumption. In fact, be wary of any statistic that is stated as if it comes with a self-evident conclusion: there is no such thing.
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post #285 of 398 Old 11-03-2013, 02:16 PM
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I have never watched a 3D movie or show in the theater

 

Greenland?  Just a curiosity, where do you live?  I'm dialing in an airstrike...:)


Beware the statistical correlations that sound like they're indicative of something. Drowning deaths are tightly correlated to ice cream consumption. In fact, be wary of any statistic that is stated as if it comes with a self-evident conclusion: there is no such thing.
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post #286 of 398 Old 11-03-2013, 02:37 PM
 
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I haven't either...make sure to fire up another. biggrin.gif
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post #287 of 398 Old 11-03-2013, 04:01 PM
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As for glasses-free panels, have you seen them? They are not that good. They have sweet-spot issues. They will improve, but they will never be great. They are no more "immersive" than existing 3-D screens that use glasses. That is to say, they are screens. You are not in a 3-D world. You don't feel like "you are there".

The 3-D revolution, if it ever comes, will be created by making one feel present. That's a breakthrough. Whether that's done via a much, much, much better version of Oculus Rift (which is so disconnecting from the real world, that it makes you feel like you are locked inside another world, not transported to one) or a holographic-style "display" is something for future engineers to develop and determine. But a 2-D display is not that thing. And the existing methods of glasses-free tech are so many orders of magnitude removed from offering a 3-D experience, they are barely worth discussing. What they offer is a 3-D image, which is inherently nothing more than a geegaw, something to ogle. It's why even in the movies, consumers are saying, "I'll save my three bucks on this one" except when it's a "Gravity" or equivalent.

Greenland covered it well above. There does appear to be glasses free technology without sweet-spot issues, or really any significant issues, on the horizon. It wouldn't surprise me if there are some hidden issues that are apparent with a closer look with more time, but it at least looks very promising.

I don't think there's much inherently limiting with stereoscopic 3D technology. The one problem is that our eyes need to focus at the depth of the screen, but converge at different depths as if there was no screen. But, we can do this, and focus is only a weak 3D cue. If we want a more immersive experience, get a bigger screen or sit closer. Immersion is also dependent on the content. Most movies are quite limited with depth. With PC games and 3D photos, I can tweak them to match my screen size with my interpupillary distance to get a very natural, realistic, immersive 3D experience. I don't see how the technology is limiting the 3D experience in that case. But, how can that level of calibration be done in the theater or on Blu-ray? Maybe standardize screen sizes? I don't have a good answer for that. If the user at home knows what they're doing, and the TV offers controls, immersion can be improved however. At the very least, directors should opt for a less conservative 3D effect.
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post #288 of 398 Old 11-03-2013, 04:17 PM
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The thing is that when folks talk about glasses free 3D they automatically assume that it will be a huge succes. Even Mr Joe Cane believes that. Sure, people are complaining about the glasses but that doesn't stop them from watching 3D movies, does it? I believe that most potential 3D fans are already watching 3D stuff on a regular basis and do not expect mainstream glasses free 3D to be a game changer..
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post #289 of 398 Old 11-03-2013, 05:10 PM
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Both my tv and BDP have 3d settings where you can enter the screen size. And, of course, the settings for convergence/depth work at least a little.

Beware the statistical correlations that sound like they're indicative of something. Drowning deaths are tightly correlated to ice cream consumption. In fact, be wary of any statistic that is stated as if it comes with a self-evident conclusion: there is no such thing.
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post #290 of 398 Old 11-03-2013, 11:15 PM
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I believe the screen size setting on Blu-ray players only effects things like menus. That's my experience with Blu-rays on the PS3 at least.

You can push the whole image forward or backward with settings in the TV or player, but parts of the image have to be cropped. There's no way to increase the range of depth on a Blu-ray with settings. The only way to really increase the 3D is to view the movie on a larger screen. But even on a 100" screen, most films are fairly shallow.
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post #291 of 398 Old 11-03-2013, 11:30 PM
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Quote:
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There we go, trying to skew the numbers to support a personal agenda again.

This is nonsense.
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A rise in 3D software sales is a rise in 3D software sales, pure and simple.

It's a rise. But there's nothing pure and simple about it. We've explained why a bunch of times.
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Trying to skew opinions by claiming that it's due to the increased saturation of 3D sets in homes doesn't do any good because all it says is that as more consumers acquire 3D capable displays, more of them will buy 3D BDs.

See, there you go again. There is simply no evidence that more people are acquiring 3-D BluRays. None.
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The REAL display of bias is when you state that "there is at least some evidence that some 3D sales are going to people who didn't even want the 3D version in the first place". Some evidence? From whom? The ONE guy who anecdotally mentioned it and has since admitted that his experiences are due to bargain hunting for USED BDs?

First of all, anecdote is the singular of data. Second of all, if you go on Amazon and try to buy anything these days, you'll find that a lot of items have a half dozen SKUs for what appears to be the same thing. The idea that no one ever puts the wrong disc product in the cart is laughably wrong. Third of all, I've seen it at Costco, personally where someone picked up a 3-D. I asked them if they had a 3-D TV and they said, "No, I didn't realize this was a 3-D disc." Fourth of all, humans are flawed and will errantly purchase something. Again, the sum total of all this is perhaps not huge, but it's not zero either. It could be 2-5% of all 3-D sales are to people who have no desire or intention to purchase the 3-D versions. It could be 10-15%. It's very likely that some meaningful percentage of 3-D BluRay discs are never displayed in 3-D. By "some meaningful percentage" I mean "less than 20%, more than 1%."
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BTW, WHERE have you seen 3D BDs retailing (that's NEW RETAIL, NOT USED) for the same or lower prices as the 2D versions? Do tell, because ALL of us 3D fans will be happily flocking there for 3D releases. Guess what, it doesn't happen. We'd have heard of it by now if it did.

There was a period of several weeks where all 3-D versions on Amazon were the same price as 2-D versions. An AVSer alerted me to it when it happened. It appears to be over, but it definitely occurred.
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AND on top of it all, to grasp at that anecdotal straw that has been proven false and to suddenly make the jump to, "that is a lot of fake 3D sales". 'Nuff said. I think anyone with decent reading comprehension and deduction can obviously see the bias.

I think anyone with decent deductive reasoning can easily see that no one is calling the sales "fake" except you. But calling the sales soft? Well, yes. Compare this to sales of scallops, for example.. No one who buys scallops intended to buy chicken. Few people buy scallops and then fail to eat them. Scallops are never anywhere near as inexpensive as chicken. Scallops are rarely bundled with chicken, requiring you to buy scallops in order to get chicken.

3-D BluRays are often sold under all of the above conditions.

Rogo loves scallops by the way. And chicken.
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Originally Posted by greenland View Post

I have never watched a 3D movie or show in the theater or in the home, but I still think that it will probably survive and grow, especially among Gamers.

I believe the prospects for 3-D gaming are reasonably strong, though I don't believe the prospects for gaming generally are especially strong. Optimism around the next generation of consoles is wildly overblown and the PC is on a long, slow death bed. All that said, I believe 3-D gaming will prove increasingly popular.
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Their is a new glasses free technology coming in the next year or so, that looks very promising, and it just might be a game changer for getting more people to watch 3D in their homes.

http://www.flatpanelshd.com/news.php?subaction=showfull&id=1376292289

"A new glasses-free 3D technology called Ultra-D has received much praise from the first people who have seen it in action. One of the TV folks said that it is "good enough to give me goose bumps during a 3D demonstration of Life of Pi". The first TVs with Ultra D will be out by year’s end.

A company called Stream TV hopes to change glasses-free 3D technology with their Ultra D technology. The technology was first exhibited at CES but has been refined a lot in recent months. It works on both LCD/LED and OLED TVs and can reproduce 3D without any need for 3D glasses. It is reported that the 3D effect is upheld from all angles, near and far.

One of the first TV industry observers to experience the technology in action is Mark Henninger from AVSforum. He says, "I have never seen anything like it" and that the 3D effect was "good enough to give me goose bumps during a 3D demonstration of Life of Pi". He generally praises the 3D experience and points out only very few weaknesses.

The technology utilizes the extremely high 4K resolution, where enough pixels are available to create the illusion of 3D. 3D images on the TV are not rendered in full 4K resolution but are more detailed than Full HD, according to Stream TV. Additionally, Ultra D requires a chip in the TV that takes care of image processing, and a thin film in front of the TV that spreads light. The film does not affect 2D picture quality, viewing angles or brightness of the TV panel, according to the company.

Ultra D will be integrated into the first TVs before 2013 ends. More specifically in Chinese Hisense’s new Ultra HD TVs that will be available in USA and other markets in 50, 58 and 65 inch sizes. The technology is also heading for a 31-inch 4K PC monitor."

So there is something very positive for 3D lovers to look forward to. Hell, if it turns out to be nearly as good as it is being described, I will probably want to own such a set.

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Originally Posted by tgm1024 View Post

Thanks for your assessment.  For the record, when I (I can only speak for myself) asked what the bottom line position was, it wasn't to attempt to somehow put you on the spot or to defeat your position or catch you in an inconsistency. I was just curious if you had a series of observations, or a series of observations that had coalesced into a prediction.  Either was totally ok, I was just curious.

I have a differing opinion of what the 3D numbers might mean, but I don't put you in the category "supporting a personal bias" or other words to that effect.

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Originally Posted by Airion View Post

Greenland covered it well above. There does appear to be glasses free technology without sweet-spot issues, or really any significant issues, on the horizon. It wouldn't surprise me if there are some hidden issues that are apparent with a closer look with more time, but it at least looks very promising.

Glasses are awful, but remain only part of the problem.
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Originally Posted by 8mile13 View Post

The thing is that when folks talk about glasses free 3D they automatically assume that it will be a huge succes. Even Mr Joe Cane believes that. Sure, people are complaining about the glasses but that doesn't stop them from watching 3D movies, does it? I believe that most potential 3D fans are already watching 3D stuff on a regular basis and do not expect mainstream glasses free 3D to be a game changer..

I don't see why the lack of glasses will be a game changer. And keep in mind, TV replacement cycles are 7-8 years. If this technology actually does roll out next year, it might be on a plurality of sets by 2016 or so and in a majority of households by 2022 or so. The assumption there will be a disc-media market at all by then is pretty far-fetched. The assumption that lots of 3-D movies are going to be streamed into the home is something that I'd place in the wishful thinking category. Broadcasters are looking to move to 4K, but few are spending much time thinking about 3-D anymore.

There is no difference in HDMI cables. If you can see the picture without visible dropouts or sparklies, the cable is working at 100%. No other cable will display a better version of that picture. You're simply wrong if you think there is a better digital cable than one that is already working. (Oh, and plasma didn't die because of logistics problems, nor does OLED ship in big boxes because it comes from Korea.)
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post #292 of 398 Old 11-04-2013, 03:41 AM
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Originally Posted by rogo View Post




First of all, anecdote is the singular of data. Second of all, if you go on Amazon and try to buy anything these days, you'll find that a lot of items have a half dozen SKUs for what appears to be the same thing.
If you're going to try to correct someone, at least try to do it correctly.

DATUM is the singular of data.

Definition of ANECDOTAL: (of an account) not necessarily true or reliable, because based on personal accounts rather than facts or research.

As for there being multiple SKUs and versions of something on Amazon, I don't know about anyone else but if I'm NOT looking for the 3D version, I look for the cheapest version that's labeled Blu Ray, and that's generally NOT the 3D version.
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I think anyone with decent deductive reasoning can easily see that no one is calling the sales "fake" except you.
Can't even keep track of your own posts?
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Originally Posted by rogo View Post

Also, there is at least some evidence that some of the 3-D sales are going to people that didn't even want the 3-D version. Whether that's because they are priced the same or simply because they put the wrong version in their Amazon cart is irrelevant; it's certainly happening. Over the vast number of BluRay sales, that is a lot of "fake" 3-D sales.
LOL



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post #293 of 398 Old 11-04-2013, 05:13 AM
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8mile13- I partially agree with your point about glasses-free 3DTVs. Many people on AVS say they're waiting for glasses-free 3D, but I think they're a minority overall. I think glasses-free has the opportunity to appeal to the casual viewer who hasn't much thought about 3D in the home and doesn't want to figure out the glasses. My concern is that such people wouldn't specifically seek out a glasses-free 3D display in the first place, for the post part. It would need to be a cheap, standard feature. There's still a lot of unknowns here, but my best guess is that glasses-free will help 3D slowly inch forward.

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Originally Posted by rogo View Post

Fourth of all, humans are flawed and will errantly purchase something. Again, the sum total of all this is perhaps not huge, but it's not zero either. It could be 2-5% of all 3-D sales are to people who have no desire or intention to purchase the 3-D versions. It could be 10-15%. It's very likely that some meaningful percentage of 3-D BluRay discs are never displayed in 3-D. By "some meaningful percentage" I mean "less than 20%, more than 1%."

Let's keep in mind the actual data we have:
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Originally Posted by url="http://www.3dfocus.co.uk/3d-news-2/spend-on-3d-blu-ray-nearly-doubled-in-2012/11518" 
Spending by U.S. consumers on the medium is up 94% this year from 2011 levels, to $220 million

Your numbers are guesses, first of all. Then even if we take your highest guess, 20%, we're still left with a large percentage of growth in purposeful 3D purchases in 2012 vs 2011, even if we were to assume purchasing mistakes never occurred until 2012. Accept it for what it is: a positive trend over one year. Let's see wait and see how 2013 turns out.
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post #294 of 398 Old 11-04-2013, 06:12 AM
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Originally Posted by Airion View Post

8mile13- I partially agree with your point about glasses-free 3DTVs. Many people on AVS say they're waiting for glasses-free 3D, but I think they're a minority overall. I think glasses-free has the opportunity to appeal to the casual viewer who hasn't much thought about 3D in the home and doesn't want to figure out the glasses. My concern is that such people wouldn't specifically seek out a glasses-free 3D display in the first place, for the post part. It would need to be a cheap, standard feature. There's still a lot of unknowns here, but my best guess is that glasses-free will help 3D slowly inch forward.

 

I think many are looking at the potentials for glasses-free with a glasses-mindset.  Yes, glasses-free is still stereoscopic, with all the drawbacks of stereoscopic information.  But...how it might be used on a day-to-day basis is what interests me.

 

One of the critical scenario changes that makes glasses-free a radically different use case is that it allows for piecemeal usage during a broadcast (once the formats are worked out).  Once configured, there's nothing stopping a sports broadcast from one day showing *only a slomotion replay* in 3D.  Or to have my FIOS remote have a 3D button on it that taps into such things or turns it off.

 

3D is currently this; a premeditated decision to employ 3D for a particular viewing:

  1. Decide to watch 3D
  2. Get the glasses
  3. Turn on the 3D content
  4. Put away the glasses

 

And may one day be a little more like this:

  1. Decide to watch TV
  2. 3D content shows up as needed

Beware the statistical correlations that sound like they're indicative of something. Drowning deaths are tightly correlated to ice cream consumption. In fact, be wary of any statistic that is stated as if it comes with a self-evident conclusion: there is no such thing.
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post #295 of 398 Old 11-04-2013, 07:05 AM
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3D glasses in a home group viewing situation make it almost impossible for the group to have a real shared experience, where they can turn to each other and laugh at something on the screen, or ask if someone would like another beer or snack; or just stroll in and out of the room and keep taking peeks at the screen from time to time. It is just an unnatural isolating viewing experience, more akin to groups wearing night vision goggles than standard home TV viewing.

A great glasses free 3D TV technology would change all that, and allow people to share the viewing experience, much like they share the 2D home viewing experience now, and even more so on special occasions, such as watching the Superbowl together, etc. We are a social animal species, and 3D glasses tend to isolate us from the group. It is not the 3D experience that is the problem, it is the 3D glasses isolating effect that is. Once they are gone, I feel 3D will really take off and be around for the long run.
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With glasses-free 3D, the visual experience will become ordinary and trivial, not to mention litigious, once parents start associating their children's vision impairment with 3D overload.
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post #297 of 398 Old 11-04-2013, 08:42 AM
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With glasses-free 3D, the visual experience will become ordinary and trivial, not to mention litigious, once parents start associating their children's vision impairment with 3D overload.

 

Purely speculative at this point.  Absolutely --->zero<--- data showing that is true, yet parroted around nonetheless.  The worry however IMO is sensible because of brain formation and missing cues.  But it would require a crap load of viewing, even in the worst-case scenarios I've seen.  And no one has a clue if it even matters.


Beware the statistical correlations that sound like they're indicative of something. Drowning deaths are tightly correlated to ice cream consumption. In fact, be wary of any statistic that is stated as if it comes with a self-evident conclusion: there is no such thing.
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post #298 of 398 Old 11-04-2013, 09:02 AM
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Children are born into a natural 3D world. They will do just fine watching glasses free 3D entertainment in the future.

If the Sesame Street freak show is not doing them any harm, then surely watching nature shows and animals in their natural habitats in some 3D format will not scar them, but instead enrich their lives. Children are flexible and capable of adjusting; it is old curmudgeons who like to grumble about the dangers of modernity who are not. Now all of you get off of my lawn!!!
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post #299 of 398 Old 11-04-2013, 09:49 AM
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Originally Posted by greenland View Post

Children are born into a natural 3D world. They will do just fine watching glasses free 3D entertainment in the future.

If the Sesame Street freak show is not doing them any harm, then surely watching nature shows and animals in their natural habitats in some 3D format will not scar them, but instead enrich their lives. Children are flexible and capable of adjusting; it is old curmudgeons who like to grumble about the dangers of modernity who are not. Now all of you get off of my lawn!!!

 

Again, there's no actual proof for it, but you're under-reacting.  Kids are born into a 3D world, sure, but they're not born into a focus-cue free world with strictly left/right information being fed into their eyes.  When a child tilts his head IRL, the left/rightedness of the world tilts with him.  When he tilts his head infront of a TV, glasses or otherwise, the left-right as captured by the camera stays put.  In 3D TV, the focus plane is the TV screen.  If it's in focus in the content, and if the lens is focusing for the right distance (the TV screen itself), then everything drawn is in focus whether or not properly converged.  We just Do. Not. Know. how the brain will develop when fed such goofed up cues.

 

And proper development of the neuro-optic apparatus of vision is hugely dependent upon ongoing stimulus.  Cats, for instance, when raised in the complete dark for the first number of months will never develop eyesight.  Their eyes are the same as before---they're just missing the part of the brain that decodes the information.  There is no clue what will happen when the broken 3D stimulus happens during brain growth in children.


Beware the statistical correlations that sound like they're indicative of something. Drowning deaths are tightly correlated to ice cream consumption. In fact, be wary of any statistic that is stated as if it comes with a self-evident conclusion: there is no such thing.
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post #300 of 398 Old 11-04-2013, 01:28 PM
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I don't think anyone's planning on raising their kids by making them watch 3D TV and nothing else for the first few months of their lives.

As they grow up wandering the real world, their eyes will develop just fine. As you mentioned, it would take a ridiculously large percentage of 3D TV viewing to cause problems, which is simply a case of bad parenting 2D OR 3D, and probably means the kid would end up resembling a beach ball filled with jello.


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